Episode 659 - Murray Grant || The Mad Sculptor

Summary

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The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 659 – Murray Grant || The Mad Sculptor
Date: July 28, 2026
Host: The Origins Foundation (Robbie and possible co-host)
Guest: Murray Grant

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Episode Overview

In this compelling episode, the podcast sits down with Murray Grant—renowned wildlife sculptor lovingly dubbed “The Mad Sculptor”—at his El Karama studio in Laikipia, Kenya. The episode explores Murray’s intimate connection between art, wildlife conservation, and hunting. The conversation traverses his unique artistic methods, the ethics of wildlife use, Kenyan conservation challenges, personal stories of iconic animals, and the future of wild Africa. Throughout, Grant and the host probe difficult questions and celebrate the multifaceted, sometimes controversial, aspects of sustainable use and conservation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Murray Grant – The “Mad Sculptor”

• Murray’s Reputation and Character

  • Known for his wild mane, artistic obsession, and exceptional bronzes ([00:00]–[01:19]).
  • “He is a very diligent, observant, obsessive bronze sculptor.” (Robbie, 00:29)
  • Studio located in Laikipia, with works found in homes across the world.

• Podcast Setting

  • Recorded outdoors, surrounded by wildlife sounds (“the cicadas,” “[03:54]–[05:33]”).

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2. Championing the Conservation Narrative

• The Need for Honest Storytelling
  • “We need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are.” (Robbie, 01:23)
  • The hosts note societal misconceptions: local Kenyans often equate hunting with poaching ([09:34]–[11:39]).
  • Discussion of a past podcast episode with an anti-hunting environmentalist (Mimo Somoi).

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3. Murray’s Journey: From Hunter to Artist

• Early Life & Hunting’s Influence

  • Exposure to hunting as a child, thanks to his father, a professional hunter pre-ban ([12:21]–[14:37]).
  • “...harvesting was a cornerstone of my work later as a wildlife sculptor, ...I got an unbelievably valuable exposure to the anatomy of many of the game animals.” (Murray Grant, 13:24)
  • This hands-on experience honed his anatomical accuracy as a sculptor.

• Obsession with Anatomy

  • “To be as detailed as you can be, you have to be absolutely obsessive about anatomy.” (Host, 14:37)
  • Sculpting all of Africa’s 22 duiker species; deep passion and connection required ([14:49]–[16:10]).

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4. Artistic Process: From Field to Bronze

• Field Sketches and Molding

  • Extensive sketching and measurement process, often involving field molds ([16:49]–[17:16]).
  • “For me, I have my field sketches, and they can be those blueprint ones, ...but they're informed by molds taken in the field.” (Murray, 16:49)

• Respect for the Animal

  • Each hunted specimen is studied deeply, and every part is used:
    • “...spending up to 24 hours with that animal.”
    • “There is always a huge element of sadness and gravity to harvesting a specimen.” (Murray, 17:33 & 17:58)

• Technical Details

  • Use of plaster of Paris molds, expanding foam, and sand molding ([32:10]–[33:20]).
  • “You dig like a squirrel, if it's a big, big animal or you turn it over.” (Murray, 32:55)
  • Trail cameras and measurement of bones supplement the process.

• On Iconic Works

  • Life-sized elephant sculptures, e.g., “Craig” from Amboseli—250 hours spent just on his skin ([23:10]–[25:54]).

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5. Conservation, Ethics, and the Role of Hunting

• Why Sculptors Are Also Hunters—Historical Context & Ethics

  • Artists have always needed to study anatomy closely (“delve into the anatomy… sculptors have always needed to look…”).
  • Parallels drawn between prehistoric artists and modern sculptors ([20:55]–[21:17]).
  • “...they were, through the hunt, ...incredibly moved by the animals that they were pursuing. They knew them better than anybody else...” (Murray, 21:17)

• Edition Size and Fine Art Ethics

  • “It's classified as fine art if it's an edition of 10 or less....That's what I was going for. I don't want to ever be associated with any type of mass production.” (Murray, 25:07)

• Story of “Thunder,” the Legendary Buffalo

  • Wild buffalo reaching 58 inches, unique genetics wiped out by disease and drought ([42:49]–[48:27]).
  • Moving storytelling:
    • “He leapt up and spun around and literally blocked out the sky like a thundercloud....he let me go...” (Murray, 43:01)

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6. The African Conservation Toolbox

• The “Seven Tools” for Habitat Protection ([36:41]–[37:51])

  • Wilderness areas
  • Carbon credits
  • Biodiversity credits
  • Philanthropic model
  • National/state parks
  • Regenerative agriculture
  • Hunting

• Need for Multidimensional Approaches

  • “Why would you not put all the tools on the table and say, pick which tool works for you or which combination of tools works for you?” (Host, 37:07)

• Future Challenges

  • “Massive, massive challenge...we need to do everything from a multi-pronged approach...” (Murray, 36:03)

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7. Technology, Modernity, and Artistic Integrity

• Embracing New Tools (Photogrammetry, Meta Glasses, Tech)
  • Murray will use scanning tech for a Lord Derby eland sculpture but insists it’s only a “part of the toolbox,” retaining commitment to fieldwork ([55:17]–[56:55]).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Artistic Obsession:

  • “I sat on my butt for 250 hours copying as exactly as possible that elephant's skin....It's like sculpting somebody's fingerprint.” (Murray, 21:50)

• On Conservation Realities:

  • “Communities need to be involved. They need people to tell stories like you do, which is why it’s such an honor to have you here today.” (Murray, 36:03)

• Thunder the Buffalo:

  • “As I got to him...he leapt up and spun around and literally blocked out the sky like a thundercloud....the dog's jaws dropped in complete surprise....” (Murray, 43:01)
  • “I managed to string his bones together and create a model, a life size model. And a mold of that has been taken as a pretty accurate sculpture of him.” (Murray, 47:03)

• On Bias and Telling Unheard Stories:

  • “I went in with an agenda because nobody had told the side of the story.” (Host, 39:03)

• On His Favorite Animal:

  • “No, I don’t. My favorite is the obsession at the time, apart of course, from my wife, who I’m always obsessed with. Let me just quickly put that in.” (Murray, 54:05)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00–01:19 – Introduction to Murray Grant, “The Mad Sculptor”
• 03:54–05:33 – The calming power of bush sounds and audio design in art/media
• 12:21–14:37 – Murray’s early hunting influences and anatomical education
• 14:49–16:49 – Artistic obsession with anatomy and detail in sculpture
• 17:33–17:58 – Deep respect for animal life and emotions around harvesting
• 23:10–25:41 – Creating the iconic elephant sculpture “Craig”
• 32:10–33:20 – Technical process: molding in the bush with plaster, foam, and sand
• 36:03–37:51 – Conservation’s future, “toolbox” approach, and the seven tools
• 42:49–48:27 – Story of “Thunder:” wild buffalo genetics and loss
• 55:17–56:55 – Embracing new technologies but preserving field adventure

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Flow and Tone

The episode is candid, at times playful (banter about “mad scientist” reputations and “wiener dogs”), but always earnest and respectful regarding difficult conservation subjects. Murray Grant’s humility and passion infuse the conversation, while Robbie’s journalistic curiosity and willingness to challenge bias set a tone of deep, exploratory honesty.

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For Listeners New and Old

Whether you’re in the sustainable use community or just interested in African wildlife, this episode both celebrates and scrutinizes the complex relationships between hunting, art, conservation, and technology—anchored by Grant’s raw devotion to his craft and the animals he immortalizes.

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Transcript

[Robbie]

Murray Grant is the mad sculptor. That's what I call him. He's got this incredible, like, white gray mane of hair that looks quite tame, but once he takes his hat off and he starts getting exuberant and excited, this mane of white gray hair comes out like Albert Einstein. That is the mad sculptor. Murray Grant has his own studio in the middle of Lakipia. Lakipia is accounting in Kenya, and he's

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

famous for his bronzes.

[Robbie]

That's what he does. He also is just an incredible sketch artist as well. His bronzes are in the wealthiest of wealthiest of people's homes all across the world. He is a very diligent, observant, obsessive bronze sculptor. I also consider him a friend, which is quite amazing. And he invited me to his ranch, El Karamo, in the middle of La Quipa, to talk about wildlife conservation, talk about art, talk about sculpting, talk about his process. And we really dig into some really meaty, interesting topics. And I honestly think that you're just gonna love this podcast. He's such an interesting character. And obviously we're recording this live outside of his studio in the middle of lakeipia in the middle of the day. Beautiful setting.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Enjoy.

[Robbie]

So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

There's a sweet spot with a gun,

[Robbie]

you know, too heavy, and it's a

[Murray Grant]

burden to walk with.

[Robbie]

Too light and you whipping it.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Why is the project so important to the hunting community? I think it's not only important. I think it's vital. I think it's just in time.

[Murray Grant]

It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder, and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide down.

[Robbie]

That is such an amazing analogy.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Snakes and ladders.

[Murray Grant]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

You know, ivory, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age. Okay.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

The expenses were going up.

[Robbie]

It goes a long way with families.

[Murray Grant]

We have families that do need it.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Me close this door because I have a little wiener dog.

[Robbie]

What?

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

You are. You're laughing because I said wiener.

[Murray Grant]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out. I'm sorry.

[Robbie]

The first happened.

[Murray Grant]

What are we doing here today?

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

You're telling the whole world. Are so loud that I thought it was just interference through my microphone. I was like, what is that? Is that static?

[Murray Grant]

That's the first thing I heard, which for me is a quite nice calming noise.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

They say God does well, you Creatives are, you know, you need some. Like my wife. My wife will work. She'll write like a horror novel. She's a horror writer. Did you know that?

[Murray Grant]

I didn't know that.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

So if I go missing Murray. Okay, well, she's the first person that you need to point at.

[Murray Grant]

I'll check. I'll check up on it. Because we have something in common there. Because my wife loves to read murder mysteries.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Oh, I'm gonna tell your wife all about Lisa. Lisa. She just sold her first horror fiction book. It'll come out in October next year.

[Murray Grant]

What a milestone.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Massive milestone. It's called the Real Housewives of Howling Lane. And she's also just gotten. I don't know how much I'm allowed to say.

[Murray Grant]

You probably shouldn't. Yeah. Anyway, but that's.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

It's gonna be exciting. And she's a horror writer and she Googles how to kill people every single day.

[Murray Grant]

But if you watch my back, I'll watch yours.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Yeah, perfect. That sounds like amazing. But to her creativeness, she'll be sitting, riding on the couch and she'll be watching a movie at the same time.

[Murray Grant]

That's amazing. I.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And I said, what are you doing? And she's like, no, I'm not really watching it. No, she's not watching a movie. It's just like. It's just the noise.

[Murray Grant]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Like this. The cicadas.

[Murray Grant]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

That you can hear in the background here.

[Murray Grant]

Well, for me, my earliest kind of most primal memory of, you know, the cicadas and what they mean to me would be lying in the back of a cruiser and HJ45 out on the plains with a half eaten sigh wall in front of us, waiting for a stock killing lion to come in with my father with a car battery and a spotlight in with us and a pile of.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

When was that?

[Murray Grant]

Gary Bush nuclear in the 80s. That would have been in the. Probably in the early 90s. 80s. 90s. 80s, yeah, that would have been 80s and yeah, just we hardly had any. Any stock killing in those days. But occasionally there would be one that would make a real habit of it and become a bit of an expat.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Where was this? In Kenya?

[Murray Grant]

This was on El Korama.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Oh, El Korama, right here.

[Murray Grant]

And we'd wait and you know, those cicadas still make exactly the same noise out there. And it's just a feeling of real peace and connection for me in the background. And in fact, on a lot of our, you know, the business of hunting and how we portray it and the vast discussion on what we should and shouldn't show in this day and age. I always think that those natural bush sounds should play more of a, an important, more of a central part in our videos because that's what places us in the bush and essentially one of the things that places us in our place in nature, in the bush.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

It's funny you say that, bb friend of ours, Clay BB says to me every time he's watched one of my pieces. He says, man, the thing that sets you apart is we are very, very diligent in our audio design.

[Murray Grant]

It's very important. And I agree with him. And I always try to. If I'm recording a sculpture or something and I'm wanting to take people in and I've got two pieces of film and I'm wondering which one it might be, that there's an African fish, eagle calling in one of them, or a ring neck dove or whatever it is in the background, which to me sets it apart.

[Robbie]

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[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

put it on your headphones and listen

[Robbie]

and watch at the same time. I need you to subscribe to the Origins foundation podcast channel on YouTube. You know me, just randomly, I'm going to pick probably one or two or three YouTube subscribers to the new podcast channel and send you something. We've got great partners that give us free stuff to give away. Why not give it to you guys? So go ahead and subscribe. The Origins Foundation Podcast channel. Not only are you going to watch some cool podcasts, but you could win some cool stuff too.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Yeah, for sure. Murray Grant, mad sculptor, mad creator, sitting in the middle of central Kenya. Welcome to the Origins foundation podcast.

[Murray Grant]

Thank you.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Robbie, is this your first podcast?

[Murray Grant]

It is actually, yes.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

I am popping cherries all across Kenya in more ways than one. You know that I was in Mombasa. Yes. Three nights ago with an elephant hunting documentary that it's amazing. Every time I spoke to a Kenyan, if it was my Mombasa guide that took me around Mombasa. The taxi driver, the transfer driver. And if you go back in this podcast, if people listen to this podcast, this is number, I don't know, 700 probably that we're podcasting here. The number six podcast I ever did was with a female Kenyan activist out of Nairobi. She was 18 years old. Her name was Mimo Somoi, runs an environmental NGO. And she slid into my DMs, not in a good way, and said, I don't understand the purpose of your Instagram. And it was a very strange question for Me. So I explained, and she just couldn't understand it. And we had a great podcast. The podcast is phenomenal. And if somebody says, which podcast should I listen to? I always say, start at number six, because it's an hour and a half of questions that will blow your mind in terms of a lack of an understanding about what hunting is. And it didn't really sort of sink in with me until this trip, because this trip now, four times in a row, they've said the exact same thing she did. And it was like, wow, they've never heard the other side. They've never heard that actually. Hunting is a strictly regulated piece of business. Hunting and poaching are the same thing here. And when somebody says, I'm elephant hunting, like this documentary was, the second question was then, oh, did. Are they selling. Are they selling the ivory? And I was like, no, that's illegal because it's tied to poaching. So it's just, yeah, it's fascinating. And, yeah, I love doing podcasts because it's just a way to communicate long form of what people do and how they do it.

[Murray Grant]

Exactly. And with social media, increasingly, it's just these snippets. So with a podcast, we get to dive a little deeper into our subject.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

So you're a rarity here in Kenya. You hunt well, but not in Kenya. Let's just be. Let's make it perfectly clear here.

[Murray Grant]

I'm glad that, first of all, that you've introduced me as a mad sculptor somewhere along the line. I'm not sure where that reputation came

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

from, but every time I've said, I'm going to go see Murray Grant, they're like, oh, the mad scientist, the mad sculptor. I've met him once. And did you cut your hair? Because I think the last time I saw you had much longer hair.

[Murray Grant]

I may have done. I may have done. I'm not sure. And I don't put a lot of stock by, you know, those types of appearances, but perfectly possible. But anyway, so, yeah, from my perspective, hunting was something very, very natural that came into my life at a, you know, a tender age. Because after the safari, hunting was banned in Kenya. My father was a professional hunter. Before that, we were.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Is your dad still alive today?

[Murray Grant]

He's passed away, sadly, in 2010, here at the Al Karama Wildlife Conservancy. But we. We were allowed in Kenya, it was legal to. To hunt on control up till 2003. So very naturally, we were allowed to harvest a very controlled percentage of our wildlife. And it was a great thing because it allowed us to provide a superior level of protein to all the people who worked on the conservancy. And that extended to our neighbors next door as well. And for me personally, it was a cornerstone of my work later as a wildlife sculptor, because not only did I focus on the wildlife and interact with it in a very natural manner and a very intense manner, but I also, in the skinning shed and the slaughterhouse, was very hands on. So I got an unbelievably valuable exposure to the anatomy of many of the game animals. And I think through repetition of skinning and cutting up, I got an exposure that enabled me to do what I do now, which is to produce fairly lifelike bronze sculptures of the wildlife. So it was a cornerstone for me, that exposure as a hunter.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Well, based on what I'm seeing here, anatomy, is it like for you to be as detailed as you can be? You have to be absolutely obsessive about anatomy.

[Murray Grant]

I think that's a key word that you use, obsessive and passionate. Because to me, God's creation, nature as it is, is fascinating and its diversity is so fascinating. So when you're recording, say, the antelope species of Africa in bronze, you get to something like a lesser kudu and a greater kudu. And the faces are very similar, but what makes them different can come down just to measurements. So very similar curves, but spaced over a different blueprint. And so when you get to sculpting all 22 of Africa's dikers that, at first glance look pretty similar, especially when, as a sculptor, you're viewed with a piece of gray plasticine formed into a diker, and you don't have color or any of the other variables like location in front of you. You are looking at some precise anatomical work. But it's not just that. There's also a great connection needed with the animal to drive me through the hard. Like any work, let's face it, there's some days that it's just hard work and without the passion, I wouldn't get through it.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

So let's talk about. You've got a red dacre right now. And that's what, literally, I saw it. Maybe, what was it three weeks ago, you might have posted it. A video of your red dacre and there was an elephant going past your window. Classic African scene. Then you had the red dacre and what? And it was great. Don't get me wrong. Like, the. The sculpture looked amazing. But to me, the thing that blew me away was just a brief glance at your sketchbook. That you gave us. And I don't know how many numbers were on that sketchbook for that red daco. There could have been 40, 50 numbers.

[Murray Grant]

Well, I suppose for me, I know how people react to those sketches and. Thank you. But it's a process that I'm at least 25 years into now. And so it's just my method. And I have my field sketches, and they can be those blueprint ones, which are what I refer to, but they're informed by molds taken in the field.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And it's almost the greatest sign of respect, Mari, of that animal. Cuz would you.

[Robbie]

Would you have. Would.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Did you hunt that red da?

[Murray Grant]

Yes.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And so once that animal is dead, you are spending up to 24 hours with that animal.

[Murray Grant]

Exactly. And I wouldn't be able to ever just hunt and leave something. And maybe next time I saw it, see it on the wall as such. That's not me at all. As a hunter, I'm interacting with the environment and feeling deeply the conservation side

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

of

[Murray Grant]

what I'm exposed to and how I can play a part in that. And it's really on a base level, an interaction with that animal. There is always a huge element of sadness and gravity to harvesting a specimen. But let's face it, sculptors have always needed to look to delve into the anatomy of what they're making. And I hope that it's worth it in the long run. So I do have. And I love. As a kid, as a little child, I always loved the skinning shed and I loved the bone heap we would visit, and I would use those materials to carve into knife handles and just to compare the bones. And these animals are beautiful the way they're constructed from the inside out as well as. As beings that share our earth. And they have every, every equal right to be on this earth as we do. And as conservationists, if we don't look at all the methods that we have at our fingertips to conserve them and all they're worth, then we're going to kiss goodbye to some of the best parts of wild. Well, let's talk about this continent, Wild Africa, which is what I'm passionate about. So when I travel all the way to Bangui and then get on a flight two and a half hours back to the east of the Central African Republic, and I go and look at animals there, I have also arranged for, you know, maybe 250 kilos of plasticine and plaster of Paris and expanding foam to get there. It's not an easy thing, so that I can make maximum Use of that animal as a harvest, not just as table fare, which of course is always used, but to finally transfer some of that information through molds and measurements onto these bronzes which last forever.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

It's interesting that you almost, and here's maybe a dichotomy here that you know you're hunting for a purpose because you love to hunt. But there's also another purpose which is man. I've got this opportunity to capture this animal in such intricate detail, probably more detail than most people would ever, you know, dare I say, nobody has got a life size forest bongo that they've been working on ever. Maybe again, I'm not, I'm not in, I'm not in this field. And granted, yes, you're going to sell it and you're going to make money and that is your career, but that has come from this absolute, again, obsession of yours that is like man. I just want to know more about this animal and its folds and its wrinkles and it's.

[Murray Grant]

But when we say this, let's accept that this is certainly nothing new. I mean, you just have to go to the caves of Lascaux in France and see what the primitive cave hunters painted on the wall. Why did they do that? Why did they make those cave paintings or the san. Why did they paint those eland?

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

What do you think? Why do you think they did it?

[Murray Grant]

They did it because they were, through the hunt. They were incredibly moved by the animals that they were pursuing. They knew them better than anybody else because of the way they had focused on them through the tracking, the vague scent, to the intensity of the whole hunt, to the skinning. They knew those animals inside out and they were moved by them and they relied on them and their survival was tied in with those animals. And I've always thought, I've always loved, you know, what we call primitive art like that cave paintings because they're so raw and they, it resonates with what I do. To me as a person, I connect with nature and there is a part of it which is hunting. And you know, that connection is what gives me the fortitude to continue through the process to the end result, which people say, you've got to be mad to make that. How many hours did you make that elephant's skin? I sat on my butt for 250 hours copying as exactly as possible that elephant's skin. I didn't hunt the elephant. There are some animals that personally I don't hunt, but it's just an example of a sculpture that's difficult Elephant skin, trying to make a portrait. It's like sculpting somebody's fingerprint.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

So one of your later sculptures is Craig. Craig Passed away. Very iconic elephant, if not the most iconic elephant in Africa. And you have built a bronze of Craig, right?

[Murray Grant]

Yes, I created a bronze of him through several trips to Amboseli. Just like I actually held off studying Craig because everyone is talking about Craig, right? Yeah. And I love to get that bit further into the wilderness. I love adventure. That's also part of my work. But I will say, when I finally went, got there, got in front of Craig, and he was so tame and wonderful, I was struck by, you know, a great feeling of peace being around that elephant. And he was the ultimate model for sculptors such as me, because I was able to just spend so much time with him and get all the photographs that I needed to try to copy his.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Did you use any. Anybody else's photographs for this, or do you do your own?

[Murray Grant]

No, it's very important to me that it's really personal, and it's also just impractical. You know, people have taken their photos for different reasons. For me, I'd pre chosen the position that I wanted him in, so every time when he was walking, he was in that position. I use a long lens so that I'm far away from the animal, so there's no distortion.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Mm.

[Murray Grant]

And also just allowing him to drift along in that graceful walk. And each time he was in this specific position, wherever I was, I would take the photo. And we managed to do some donations back to Big Life with the first few of those, and sold the last one actually at auction for conservation. And so that was nice to watch that give back a little bit.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And these sculptures, you do 10 of them, right? Or should you do 25 of Craig?

[Murray Grant]

No, I always do 10.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

10 only. Why did you decide 10? Because you said, like, when we walked up here, you're like, I just did 10 of the first elephant over there. What made you, like, pick that number right off the bat? Right off the gat? Right off the bat.

[Murray Grant]

Because it's classified as fine art if it's an addition of 10 or less. And when you import it to the US, just as an example, it sits as a piece of handmade fine art if it's an addition of 10 or less. So it's in a lesser tax bracket, but it's also because that number has been accepted as kind of the limit to the really fine limited editions for collector's pieces. And that's what even right at the Beginning. That's what I was going for. I don't want to ever be associated with any type of mass production.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Got it, got it. So 10 Craigs. And you said you spent 250 hours just doing the skin of Craig.

[Robbie]

You think?

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

I think that's me. Don't worry, we'll get it out.

[Murray Grant]

It's a bit windy. Yes. 250 hours in the studio just making the skin. So I had an exemplary set of photos of Craig. Now, just recently, I was looking at Ian Parker's. Ian Parker's book. What I tell you three times is true. Read it.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

I need to read it.

[Murray Grant]

I've got a treat for you.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Okay. I got another treat for you if you haven't read. Have you read Raymond Bonner's at the Hand of Man? Will Trade Books?

[Robbie]

Oh, you've read it?

[Murray Grant]

I have. I have looked at.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

I think it is unbelievable.

[Murray Grant]

I think there's a reference to my old man in that book.

[Robbie]

Really?

[Murray Grant]

Yeah.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Oh, I probably need to reread it now.

[Murray Grant]

Okay. So.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

So Ian Parker.

[Murray Grant]

So Ian in. There was a little chapter I read where he described a Liangulu hunter in Tsavo with his bow and arrow, he just painted this vignette of this elephant hunt of this traditional Liangulu guy with his big longbow. And I read it, and I just had this strong urge again for the first time since completing Craig, because Craig kind of purged me of my elephant passion, which is a reoccurring thing, that

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

process, because you started this whole sculpture. The reason you started your first sculpture was an elephant, a big elephant out of mirror.

[Murray Grant]

To me, it feels. I don't know if you're a distance runner, but to me, it's like a distance run. When you finish, you're done with it. And that last few hundred meters you're putting in everything. So it's an exhausting process. And I said when I finished Craig, that's probably my last elephant sculpture. And just yesterday I read this, and I know it's not. Sorry for the guys who. I told you it's my last elephant sculpture, but, you know, I've got to sell things.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Yeah. So why did this chapter. What about that chapter said to you, like, oh, shit, maybe I need to do more elephants?

[Murray Grant]

It took me into the Tsavo wilderness again, and I. I had a strong urge to revisit and to sculpt another big elephant, and there are lots of big Ellies, and that gene is in there.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Well, I was when I was with Richard, so we spent probably four or five days with him in Chulu Hills on this documentary that we, that we, that we're creating between Tanzania and the Tanzania elephant discussion and in Kenya and what's Richard's son's name?

[Murray Grant]

Jack.

[Robbie]

Jack.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

It was right then and there. I think it's up and running now. They were exploring, walking safaris deep in Saba.

[Murray Grant]

Yeah, it's one of those last. It just has the scale. So it's one of the last wilderness patches in Kenya. Notice my word, patches.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Yep, yep for sure.

[Murray Grant]

Because, you know, like here at El Karama we've had quite a few. We've. We've got a lot of issues with the habitat. There's. The woodland is, is really in decline across Laikipia because the migration routes of. Yeah, you've got.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

So a large elephant population that is just essentially sedentary. Yes. In a big 500,000acre block.

[Murray Grant]

But when I was.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

They don't go north, they don't go south.

[Murray Grant]

We would see elephants coming past in a herd of 500 animals and they would be on their way up the Wassenira river to the Aberdares and then we wouldn't see them for a year and they'd come back through and they were here. They would be here across this area for 10 days. They would heavily browse everything, stimulate the woodland and go back around their circuit out to Mount Kenya and then to Samburu and back here. So that's not happening anymore. But Tsavo is big enough that you've got this, this ocean of, of wilderness and elephants and that's. I'm really passionate about that too. So yeah, I can, this juices have been stirred. Yeah, I can smell those elephants and I'm, I'm coming to Tsavo at some point, so explain.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

So if you were. So this is at the beginning of the Savo journey, what would, what is that going to look like? Is that you going on these know, a 14 day, 21 day walking piece where you find an elephant that you're interested in and you're like, all right, I'm going to camp out here for 21 days and literally try and follow this guy. It could, it could easily be as rustic as possible.

[Murray Grant]

It could easily be that. But I think, you know, in the last couple of elephant sculptures I've seen a really good application for fundraising for conservation projects. So I'll probably work with one of the organizations in Tsavo from the outset who are working with, with wildlife conservation there every day. And we'll have to choose an elephant that it's practical to, to actually get enough photos of. Because of the nature of my portraits, I have to have kind of superior data to work off. And I'll probably go down there with my plane as well as, as well as a vehicle so that I've got, you know, my proper system at my fingertips to, to cover the ground and definitely just. It'll be an emotion.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Yeah. So without giving, obviously, you know, trade secrets away and whatnot, you've got in here a couple of molds and you're like, man, you know, you went into the car, had some fantastic hunting and one of those hunts was there was a big mold in the ground there of a yellow backed acre. Big thing. Obviously the forest bongo is way bigger. But what does that look like? You said I did a mold in the field and if you say to me, Robbie, I can't tell you what

[Murray Grant]

that is, Robbie, I don't have any trade secrets from that point of view because I'm on my journey and I wish that there were some other sculptors doing similar journeys. We've all got a different method and approach.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

So is there a material that you cast across the body? What is that?

[Murray Grant]

It's plaster of Paris. The same stuff you'd use if you broke your arm. And that's a wonderful material because it's desiccated so it's relatively light to get there and then you just have to have water. So then you make a sand bed and you can do a multiple piece mold in plaster of Paris.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

What do you mean a sand bed?

[Murray Grant]

Sand molding. You know, you build up the sand like river sand. So you build it up around the edge of the animal. So half the animals in the sand and half the animals outside. The side that's outside you just, you know, you've got plaster over that. But you can look at how to make plaster molds.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

But how do you, how do you get underneath the animal?

[Murray Grant]

You dig like a squirrel, if it's a big, big animal or you turn it over.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Okay.

[Murray Grant]

So with a, you know, with a diker or something, you could turn it over and do a two piece mold. And then into the mold you would pour an expanding foam and the foam. Expanding foam is a great material to travel with because it's light but quite strong.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Why would you not do the expanding mold, the expanding foam here? Just in case the mould breaks, I guess. Eh?

[Murray Grant]

The mould's very, very fragile and people trying to emulate this in the bush will encounter lots of problems. Remember, I'm 25 years into doing this. So we've worked hard and I have worked hard with many people in the field all over Africa. A way to do this, it's pretty simple and it's just one part of the puzzle. I would also, when the animal is cut up and the meat has been taken off and harvested, then I would always keep the bones and measure those so that you have the articulation for the animal as well as the mold. And you also need photographs and you need good photographs. So trail cameras will play an important part with some animals that are hard to catch up with, where with an elephant you can just, you know, be there yourself behind the camera. And the other important, how did you

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

get all the dimensions for that elephant for an animal that you don't actually have on the ground?

[Murray Grant]

I just used my eye for that. So just literally because there's no way to measure crake. So it is perfectly possible to do that. But one has to accept that there'll be inaccuracies.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And you're comfortable with that? Well, because you would be the harshest critic of yourself with respect to inaccuracies.

[Murray Grant]

Well, let's say Craig's dead and gone and so is Tim. And those were the last two elephants that I did, which makes, I suppose, what I the time I had with them even more special. Both huge conservation successes, having died of old age and really glad that I did get in on time and get those recorded. So I hope that gives you a few tidbits about the process. But let's hark back to the reason why again. And it's that connection with the wilderness that takes me into, into it. And the bronzes and the sketches and all that are just a byproduct of an absolute passion for the wildlife, for conservation, for wilderness. And that's what I'll always strive for and fight for.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Do you see, in terms of what you're seeing, in terms of going and doing these adventures and experience in the wild, you've been doing this for 30, 35 years across Africa. What's your opinion of what comes next in the next 20 to 30 years

[Murray Grant]

for those wilderness areas? Massive, massive challenge. And I will reiterate that we need to do everything from a multi pronged approach to conserve these places. Some places are perfectly suitable for just photographic tourism. Others need a mixture of both. They need core areas, they need hunting areas, they need a multi pronged approach to conserve them. They need communities to be involved. They need people to tell stories like you do, which is why it's such an honor to have you Here today.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Yeah, I think that I see it like a toolbox. We have very few tools at our disposal to protect habitat, which is the critical element for wildlife to survive. Very few tools. Actually, there's only seven, based on everything that I've talked about. There's the wilderness areas. That's just wilderness. Nobody really goes in. You got carbon credits. You got biodiversity credits. You got the philanthropic model. You've got your national parks, your state parks, whatnot. You've got your regenerative agricultural systems, like you guys here in La Queia, that are blending both livestock and wildlife together. And you've got hunting. That's it. Seven tools. There are no other tools right now to us. And so why would you not put all the tools on the table and say, pick which tool works for you or which combination of tools works for you? And, you know, the same issues that you're seeing in the Kipia is the same issues that's happening in South Africa. It's the same issues that's happening in New Zealand, same issues that's happening in France. It's all the same,

[Murray Grant]

100%. But I think there is hope. And I am obsessed currently with the east of the car and the work that African Parks is doing there and their approach. And I think it's a good example of a place that's just not on very many people's radar.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And it's definitely not an ecotourism hotspot.

[Murray Grant]

It isn't. And I remember speaking to my very good friend Robin hurt some 15 years ago and lamenting that I was born too late to experience the rail wilderness and the rail adventure. And he just pulled me straight up and said, you're not. You need to speak to this guy, Elaine Lefoll. And I became a friend of his and eventually ended up visiting. And it is the wild heart of Africa. And I think that that must be one of your next destinations, Robbie.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Well, I've already talked to Arnaud, and Arnaud sent me all of the photos out of Cinco, and it was just unbelievable. And so I think we're going to plan something for 20, 28. So the Runway has been laid already for what we can do there and how we can do it. Yeah. I'll tell you what. You know, you said you're humbled for me to be here. I'm humbled to be here. You know, I'm. And I said this all the way through South Africa. We're only five, six years old. June will be six years as a nonprofit. Yeah, we were. We did things for three years before it. But we weren't like, at the voice that we are today. We've only started in 2020, and I almost have unfettered access now in six years to anybody I want in our community space. And they welcome us with open arms because, you know, we're very open. We're very like, you see what you get? You know what you're going to get from me? You know, how it's going to be, you know, even like a podcast like this, you know, you didn't know what I was going to ask you. You know, how if I was going to paint you into a corner or push you into a corner or whatnot. But you're like, yeah, let's do it. There wasn't any, like, hey, you know what, what's going to happen? And to me, it's just like the fact that we get to do these stories. And I'll give you an example. In Mombasa three nights ago, the only criticism that I received from the Kenyan audience was the criticism from the filmmakers to say, you were biased in your documentary. And I said, you're right, I was. But I was. I went in with an agenda because nobody had told the side of the story. And granted, now your hindsight's 50 50. In that moment, I should have said, those that are against hunting in Botswana, are they doing, Are they asking the hunters what they think? No. Are they being called out as being biased? No. Why am I being called out as being biased? When I show you the good that comes from this activity that everyone says is bad, should I have put all of the, the, the details, all of the stories, all of the proofs, all of the education, everything in front of a anti hunter that is against elephant hunting in Botswana and say, okay, tell me what's wrong with all of this? Tell me why, you know, this grandmother that's feeding her family, that's putting her six kids through school by selling the elephant meat is a bad thing.

[Murray Grant]

So I watched that. It was a very powerful documentary.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And so it's like, yes, I was biased, but I'm not a filmmaker. I'm a scientist. I live in a very black and white world now. I live in a very gray world, but my science is still there that I really love, because my science can go like, we were just on one of the bridges here in La Quipa, and on the one side of the bridge is no fever trees. On the other side of the bridge is full of fever trees. No elephants, lots of elephants. Each one is probably not ideal. You Want to blend of the system because you need elephants like you said, to keep bush away and reduce bush encroachment. But you can't have 7,000 elephants, 9,000 elephants in the system with it, not to have an impact. With no plan in place for when those elephants are now 15,000 elephants or 25,000 elephants or 30,000 elephants. At this point, it's just mother nature that's going to take them, take care of them and knock them back down to 7,000.

[Murray Grant]

And make no mistake, we are part of Mother nature.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Tell me whilst we finish, I want to talk about this buffalo that's off to your right. So I've heard about this. This is thunder, right? And everyone's been like Charlie today driving up and Sean have all been, you know, praising the buffalo genetics out of Lakepia. 46, 47, 48 inch inch Buffalo, 50 inch Buffalo. How big is Thunder?

[Murray Grant]

58. So Thunder, Thunder was a.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

He came out of this system, right?

[Murray Grant]

He came out of this. So he was just born into this area as a wild buffalo in an unfenced light keep here. And we recognized quite soon among many plus 50 inch buffalo in our herd of say 600 across the conservancy, that there was this young buffalo with particularly huge horns and they do grow up quite fast. In three or four years they go from something that you've noticed as a big spread to something bulky and then they become a herd bull. One day I was walking along with my two Staffordshire bull terriers along a ridge into wind. There was a lot of Carissa edulis there, which smells very strongly of jasmine. There was fresh buffalo dung and there was a nice cool breeze. The dogs didn't pick up on the scent of this buffalo lying a few a couple of hundred feet in front of me. We approached not knowing he was there and walked right up to him. He was fast asleep on his side in a coryssa edulis bush 3 meters from my path. As I got to him, he, he leapt up and spun around and literally blocked out the sky like a thundercloud. And in that moment, three things happened. The dog's jaws dropped in complete surprise. They said nothing. I jumped back three meters and took the rifle that I carry for my own safety off my shoulder and attempted to remove the safety catch unsuccessfully. The buffalo spun around towards me and in a split second made the decision not to squash me, turned further to the left, flattened a acacia dra Panellobium tree and took off down the hill. This rocky escarpment with his hooves reverberating off the iron pan, making a thundering noise. And I swore blue murder at him before as I realized, you know, the dangerous situation I'd put myself into and the fact that even if he had come, if I'd pulled the trigger, it wouldn't have gone off in self defense. So he let me go and I just. We'd had a buffalo nearly kill somebody a couple of months before and a dangerous one, as happens, you know, every. Every year. And in this area, people are killed by buffalo and he had to be euthanized. And I just did not want to see a buffalo of this magnitude. That's when I first realized that his horns were actually world record sized. And so I coined a name, Thunder. And you know, he became a feature on the conservancy. Our guests would go and look for Thunder and try and see him and photograph him. I put a few things out there online and it went far and wide. And for a few amazing years, Thunder was there. We watched him fight, get kicked out of the herd, come back in, be a strong breeder. And then we had this terrible drought during COVID two year drought. And there was a cattle disease that came in because of veterinary protocols having broken down during that time. And they got a plural pneumonia. We had all time high lion numbers because the lions are completely out of control and their numbers in this area now. And this herd of buffalo with this incredible genetic was wiped out. I had a son of thunder, over 50 inches young bull, maybe 4 or 5 years old that I was hand feeding in front of the studio here. He was killed by lions as I watched.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Jeez.

[Murray Grant]

So it was kind of the end of. It was the end of the line. And you know, I was really lucky to.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And how did Thunder died in the drought?

[Murray Grant]

Yeah, I knew that there was a very strong chance that he had died. And I was walking around, I couldn't understand why these buffalo were dropping like flies. I didn't know there was no evidence of this disease because we'd never had it in this area before because it had always been kept on the east side of the Tana river with veterinary work realizing the importance of it not getting in this area Anyway, so these buffalo did die off. We found Thunder's carcass after several weeks of searching. And I managed to string his bones together and create a model, a life size model. And a mold of that has been taken as a pretty accurate sculpture of him. And of course we're all quite proud of having had a buffalo like that. I just Donated one of the sculptures for the centenary to my girl's school, Pembroke House in the Rift Valley. And yeah, we have a couple, five life sized bronzes of thunder will be made. Two have already gone and three remaining. And my intention is, with the next sail of the next one, to create the beginning of an endowment fund for the El Korama Wildlife Conservancy.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Amazing.

[Murray Grant]

As we move into becoming a black rhino and white rhino sanctuary, we need that endowment fund. We need the security for the unpredictable future.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Yeah. Is he world record? Is he the world record?

[Murray Grant]

So if you go by Roland Ward's, he was the number two because you add the two boss measurements to the spread. However, I've seen the number one and he's a superior buffalo. He has much more weight, much more depth of curl.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And where was he? Where was number one?

[Murray Grant]

He was from Lake Manyara in Tanzania. You know, spectacular spread and an area that produced many big buffalo historically.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Do you think you still have any genetics left of thunder in here?

[Murray Grant]

Yeah, I believe there are a few. I want to believe that. And there's not just thunder. There was a buffalo called Mr. Droop and he had, you know, very, very. The horns were actually as long as thunders, but they were deep drops. Yeah, they dropped deeply. And the boss was, was vast. So between the two of them.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

And he was from here too. He was from the keeper too.

[Murray Grant]

And there are some young bulls coming up that are spectacular. And you know, there were many years that we never saw a big buffalo like that here. 90s in the 80s and 90s, they weren't really. There were one or two, but there was no thunder. So I think it's a matter of time before it recovers again. And these genes, I believe are in there.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Yeah, you know, people talk about genetics and like thunder, you don't know where he came from. And you know, is the genetics. The bull is the genetics. The female, is it a 50, 50, you know, what's actually driving horn growth and boss growth. And Charlie and I were talking on the way up here, you know, one of the biggest debates that I'm in constantly is this idea of super tuskers. And where are we with super tuskers? Are we losing super tuskers? Are there any few super tuskers left? And I'm always, I'm, I'm of the camp that in the next 10 to 20 years is going to be the next heyday of elephant hunting. Number one. Number two, I believe that the genetics for super tuskers are there then. I don't think that they are being lost and specifically tied to pressure on elephants. Because if you go back in time, trophy hunting one or two big elephants is minuscule pressure. If you would even dare go negligible pressure in comparison to poaching and then even go back even further comparison to the elephant ivory trade of yesteryear, where thousands of tons of ivory were leaving the eastern African coastlines. And the other thing is that, you know, there's also a phenotypic expression component to supatuskers. And so if a. Supertuska has broken his tusk, phenotypically, he's not a super tusker anymore, but genetically he still is.

[Murray Grant]

Yeah. Well, I will say, you know, just going by what I know from Kenya, we've got those genes here and, well,

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

you've got them in Meru even, right? That's what your first elephant was, 100 pounders.

[Murray Grant]

And they're still there. And they just need the wilderness areas to be looked after so that they can continue living.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Somehow those old bulls do find these looks and crannies. Like, I was talking to Carl for a hoof who's doing the thermal drone stuff by pushing elephants out of agricultural fields in the Inkamasi on the other side of, of, of Tsavo in Tanzania. Yeah, he says he's seen a hundred pounder in that area and he sees him once every like three, four months. And when they find him, can they find him again like the next day or the next week? Gone. Just hides himself in his little nook and cranny and lives his life out until he decides I need to rate a crop or two.

[Murray Grant]

I just wonder, you know, we got on this from Thunder, and the first five bronzes I made were all buffalo. And that, that was actually strongly influenced by the control days when we were hunting buffalo. And what a important animal it is for somebody who spends, you know, every day in the bush. It's a big, It's a. It's a dangerous animal. It demands your attention. My obsession and my beginnings as a wildlife sculptor came from those, those buffalo moments. And I knew that animal inside and out. We've been into how. And I used to draw these buffalo with bigger and bigger horns. And various people wanted the drawings. And I wasn't a professional in those days at all, but I would do them as a favor and give them the drawings. But sometimes they requested that I didn't put these unbelievable horns on them because they said they didn't exist. And I said, but they might. They might exist. And there was this fascination with this Buffalo, you know, how big do the horns actually get? And I wonder whether was it manifestation? What brought thunder here to me, to Murray Grant? I mean, really, I thought buffalo from the age of 13 to 25. Girls came later. So I was really obsessed with buffalo. And this buffalo thunder was a God given thing. He came to me at Al Karamah.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Unbelievable.

[Murray Grant]

Yeah, that's what I thought.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

I'll end with this question and probably not a very unfair question to you. Maybe I know the answer, but given what you just said. Do you have a favorite?

[Murray Grant]

No, I don't. My favorite is the obsession at the time apart, of course, from my wife, who I'm always obsessed with. Let me just quickly put that in.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Good, good call. Very good call. I'll be sure to. We'll be sure to send her this podcast. Make sure you listen all the way to the end.

[Murray Grant]

Well, Robbie, thank you very much.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

I appreciate you.

[Murray Grant]

It's not an unfair question at all. In the past, I could have said buffalo or leopard. And I've realized now, with the vast diversification of wildlife across the continent, they're all beautiful in their own way. And I'm just humbled and thankful to be in the position that I am to be able to go to these places while they're still there, make these studies, interact with these animals on every level.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Given what you said about the forest bongo, and if you've done this already, then, well, then I don't get an opportunity to see it. But if you do decide to shoot a Lord Derby eland one day and do a full life size body mount in the field, you have to document that. You have to show like, holy smokes, the amount of work that went into that.

[Murray Grant]

It's a really interesting one. You bring it up because sculpture's changing and I'm actually just off to Texas to try to take a scan of a captive Lord Derby eland. Now, that's a technology called photogrammetry which will produce a foam giant eland as it is. That will be the base for my next life size giant eland sculpture. But the field work and the gritty

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

stuff, no, I'm going to call you out for a second here.

[Murray Grant]

Do it.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

That is not you.

[Murray Grant]

No, it is not.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

That is not your adventure. That is not the wilderness. That's not you embedding in the system, getting insect bitten, long nights.

[Murray Grant]

However, it's an important tool. And it's just like you were saying, part of the toolbox.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

That's right.

[Murray Grant]

Let's use the parts of the toolbox that we're not comfortable with if they are effective and if they can provide a meaningful part to the end result. So you're going to have your hunting areas and you're going to have your core non hunting conservation photographic areas. It's the same with the art. You're going to use the technology. It was just the camera traps, now it's this technology. It's not a substitute, it's just a part of the puzzle. It's not an excuse not to use the rest of it. I will be there on the ground with the tsetse flies, digging like a squirrel underneath that, underneath that animal, working in the middle of the night and in the heat and with the bees. And that is, you know, that's my part of it.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Well, if you do that, maybe we can, you know, we'll invest in you a set of these new meta glasses and I'm telling you, I've got one in my box right there. It is a different perspective because you just turn it on. You'd be kneeling next to it, making your sandpit, digging like a squirrel.

[Murray Grant]

I'll sign up for it because you won't believe it.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

That'll be brilliant. Thanks, Murray.

[Murray Grant]

Thank you, Robbie.

[Host (possibly Robbie or co-host)]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.