Episode 660 - Clayton And Kristy || Why Hunt A Rhino?

Summary

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The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 660: Murray Grant || The Mad Sculptor
Date: July 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the controversial world of rhino hunting and conservation, focusing on a white rhino hunt in South Africa with guests Christy and Clayton Williams. The episode is the first in a series tackling rhino conservation, trade bans, and the complexities of sustainable use. Christy and Clayton, seasoned hunters from Texas and first-time podcast guests, discuss their experiences, the backlash faced—particularly by women hunters—and the paradoxes in wildlife conservation. The conversation also expands to hunting Cape buffalo, storytelling from the African bush, and strategies for reshaping the hunting narrative in a modern context.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to the Williams’ Hunting Background

• Both are passionate hunters from Texas; Clayton grew up hunting, Christy did not but learned later (03:14).
• Their sons are also avid hunters and anglers.
• Not many hunting couples do what they do, especially at their level of engagement and travel (04:00).

2. The Rhino Hunt: Context, Motivation & Controversy

• The hunt is set in Inkulu, South Africa, often stirring controversy due to the endangered status of rhinos (05:08).
• Christy’s Perspective:

  “It's probably going to make some people mad... Mainly because it's a rhino. And... because I'm a woman.” (05:28)

• Discussion of added scrutiny and criticism faced by women hunters on social media (05:34).
• Prior incidents where young female hunters were “hammered” by online communities for legal hunts (06:07).

3. Hunting as Conservation: The Paradox

• Clayton Williams:

  “You're never gonna tell somebody that doesn't believe you. They're not... gonna bring them to your side. But the truth... is they're worth a lot of money and... you're gonna get poached if you don't take care of them.” (09:58)

• Exploration of the paradox: To save a species, sometimes you must assign economic value—even through hunting (10:27).
• The current model: High-value hunts fund anti-poaching and habitat management (11:41).
• Example of Christy being denied her first rhino hunt application for not having prior CITES experience (19:17).

4. History & Policy of Rhino Horn Trade

• Deep dive into the 1977 rhino horn trade ban, the influence of big NGOs, and disconnects between PR and on-the-ground biologists (11:41–14:24).
• Notable recommendation:

  “At the Hand of Man” by Raymond Bonner - a history of the trade ban and the realities of wildlife policy and NGOs (13:00–14:24).

• Despite decades of bans, rhino populations are still dwindling; poaching persists at alarming rates (15:33).

5. The Economics and Regulatory Side of Rhino Conservation

• The nature of rhino horn as the “most expensive renewable resource in the world” ($60,000/kg on the black market) (15:33).
• Stockpiles exist, but illegal trade is ongoing—raising questions about legalization and strictly controlled legal trade models (16:27).
• Discussion of developing a “diamond exchange” style regulatory body for rhino horn (20:13, 20:36).
• The challenge of preventing illegal actors from abusing the system, and South Africa’s efforts to require CITES experience for rhino hunters (17:17–19:32).

6. Farming and Wildlife Ethics

• Uneasiness with the idea of “rhino farming” for horn, even though similar models exist for less iconic species (22:13–24:06).
• Societal perception and symbolism play big roles: “It’s a rhino. Right. And it’s iconic. It’s the same thing with... lions.” (22:29–24:06)
• Regulations like horn dyeing and radioactivity to deter poaching/smuggling (24:06).

7. Public Perception, Communication, and Social Media

• Strategies for responding to online backlash: respond not to change the hater’s mind, but to inform the silent majority (28:18–28:41).
• Host: “A thousand people are going to about to read what you are, the way that you respond... maybe 500 go, wow, that makes sense.” (28:19)
• Christy shares anecdotes of support from non-hunting friends, highlighting that understanding can be fostered (27:20–27:59).
• The importance of storytelling, showing the full picture (including where the meat goes), and leveraging different media forms (32:05–32:34).
• The dangers and reach of WhatsApp in virality and losing control over shared content (34:34–36:06).

8. Gendered Backlash and Social Dynamics

• Christy receives more hostility online than Clayton does—attributed partly to gender (37:05).
• “Clayton put whatever he wants, nobody says anything. And I've got people that I know...” (37:05)
• The need for respectful but firm engagement, and how Christy stands up for herself (37:15–37:23).

9. The Reality of Conservation Hunting in Africa

• Private conservation areas with expensive ecotourism or hunting are where rhinos thrive, not public lands (16:27).
• The regulatory system’s intricacies: e.g., rhino horn is CITES Appendix I, but the animal itself is Appendix II (40:49–41:15).

10. Buffalo Hunting and African Storytelling

• Discussion moves to the Williams’ passion for Cape buffalo, calling it “addictive” and more dangerous/adrenaline-fueled than other buffalo species (41:43–44:53).
• Narratives of hunting in wild Tanzania, including lion conservation stories and the emotional complexity of taking a predator (45:01–49:49).
• Stories about close encounters and the strict safety routines the couple follows (51:08–53:01).
• The group’s hunting dynamic: coordinated, immediate backup shots to prevent wounded animals and minimize suffering (51:12–54:37).
• The difference between chasing wounded game versus immediate, respectful kills; how ethics inform their decision-making (53:22–54:37).

11. Looking Forward

• The Williams’ upcoming African adventures: Tanzania next season with their sons and friends, targeting more buffalo, lion, leopard, and elephant (54:53).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Christy Williams on Public Reaction (Sexism):

  "Because I'm a woman and we get more crap from people than the men hunters do." (05:34)

• Clayton Williams on Conservation Funding:

  "They're worth a lot of money and... you're gonna get poached if you don't take care of them. And a hundred dollars come in and they pay for the security to keep these animals alive." (09:58)

• Host on the Paradox of Hunting for Conservation:

  “The biggest paradox that we have to get over. The first paradox is the easiest one, not the easiest one, but the first one we have to deal with is how can you save a species by killing it." (10:27)

• Interviewer/Host on Policy & Fundraising:

  "The PR comms machine overrode the biological assessment on the ground because of money." (13:40)

• Christy on Social Media Backlash:

  "I've had some people come for us on Facebook on things, and I am surprised by the people that come to my defense. They are non hunters, but they're people that know me..." (27:20)

• Host’s Advice on Online Engagement:

  "You're not changing that person's mind, but a thousand people are going to about to read what you are, the way that you respond and the way that you interact with that individual." (28:19)

• Clayton on Risk Management in Buffalo Hunting:

  “We have an unspoken rule. If it's Christy's buffalo and she shoots, if that thing... anybody else with a gun shoot, like let's put that buffalo down right now.” (51:07)

• Christy on Ethical Hunting:

  “The more efficiently you can get that done, the better.” (54:05)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [05:08] The Controversy of Rhino Hunting
• [09:58] Economics of Rhino Conservation
• [11:41] Rhino Horn Trade Ban - Policy & History
• [15:33] Current Rhino Population Declines
• [20:13] Regulatory Solutions – Exchange Models
• [24:06] Ethics of Rhino/Wildlife Farming
• [27:20] Navigating Public and Social Backlash
• [32:05] Storytelling and Social Media Strategy
• [36:06] WhatsApp, Virality, and Content Risks
• [41:43] Pivot to Buffalo Hunting and Experiences
• [45:09] Lion Conservation Story in Moyawasi
• [49:49] Ethics Around Predator & Rhino Selection
• [51:07] Williams Family’s Approach to Buffalo Hunting
• [54:53] Future Plans – Tanzania & New Hunts

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Final Thoughts

This episode is a candid, unvarnished discussion about the realities of hunting, wildlife conservation, and the hard decisions—and paradoxes—faced by those on the front lines. Christy and Clayton’s personal narratives, ethical considerations, and insights into the political and economic landscapes of rhino conservation create a nuanced picture for listeners, whether or not they support hunting as a tool for conservation. The need for better communication, especially in today’s social media driven world, is a major takeaway, as are the practical realities that drive wildlife management on the ground.

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Transcript

[Host]

Christy and Clayton Williams are an amazing hunting couple out of West Texas. They love their doubles. They love hunting buffalo, they love hunting Africa. They love hunting all around the world. They just are. They just love it. Well, Clayton and Christie were in camp in Inkulu on a very specific, though controversial hunt. Christie was there to hunt a white rhino. I know everyone is in shock and awe. How can you shoot a white rhino? Isn't it endangered? Well, we get into that in this podcast and several podcasts after this. Don't just listen to this podcast. Listen to the series of rhino conservation podcasts that we're about to reveal. It gives fascinating insights that I didn't even know about from a rhino conservation perspective and where we currently stand in rhino conservation. You're going to be absolutely flabbergasted about the situation of rhino conservation. Christy and Clayton have never been on a podcast before. I'm humbled that they are on our podcast talking about this adventure.

[Interviewer/Host]

So five years ago, there was a

[Host]

reason why I started this movie. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are.

[Interviewer/Host]

There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a burden to walk with. Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community? It's.

[Clayton Williams]

It's a. I think it's not only

[Interviewer/Host]

important, I think it's.

[Clayton Williams]

I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide down.

[Host]

That is such an amazing analogy.

[Interviewer/Host]

Snakes and ladders.

[Clayton Williams]

Yeah.

[Host]

You know, ivory, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age. Okay.

[Interviewer/Host]

The expenses are going up. It goes a long way with families. We have families that do need it. Let me close this door because I have a little weiner dog. What are you laughing? Because I said wiener.

[Christy Williams]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out. I'm sorry.

[Interviewer/Host]

The first half.

[Christy Williams]

What are we doing here today?

[Interviewer/Host]

You're telling the whole world. All right. I love first time podcasters. Are you nervous?

[Christy Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, where's that coming from?

[Host]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wow, look at that.

[Clayton Williams]

It's just interference right away.

[Interviewer/Host]

First time podcast. You're already messing with my equipment.

[Christy Williams]

Didn't take me long.

[Interviewer/Host]

Christy Williams. Clayton Williams. You guys have been hunting since you were. Do people from. From West Texas just. Do you just start out hunting?

[Clayton Williams]

I did.

[Interviewer/Host]

You did, Christy?

[Clayton Williams]

Absolutely.

[Christy Williams]

I did not. What I'M not from West Texas.

[Interviewer/Host]

Where are you from?

[Christy Williams]

I am from College Station, Texas. More south.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, gosh, I should have just said Texas, granted. Come on, man, you're giving me the. It's like, no, I'm not from Texas. I was like, okay, well, maybe she's from Michigan, but I think all the

[Christy Williams]

west Texas really do. It's more of a hunting community than,

[Interviewer/Host]

than College Station is.

[Christy Williams]

Than College Station is.

[Clayton Williams]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Your parents didn't hunt?

[Christy Williams]

No, my dad had us around guns so we always knew how to use them, but there was no hunting.

[Interviewer/Host]

Did your, did your dad have you around doubles?

[Christy Williams]

No. That's been a new experience.

[Interviewer/Host]

All right, we will get into this because you guys, dare I say, is there another married couple that does what the two of you do?

[Clayton Williams]

I haven't seen one on social media, but I'm sure there is.

[Interviewer/Host]

Listen, I've been, you know, I'm very new in this industry space. We've only been going for, you know, granted, seven years, five years. If I were, you know, from 2020, we became a non profit. So 2020 is when you really started, like putting some gas in the engine. I know a lot of people in this industry everywhere. This is not many people like you. We, we try introduce yourself. I'll start with you. Clayton.

[Clayton Williams]

Clayton Williams.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's it.

[Clayton Williams]

That's it. Clayton Williams.

[Interviewer/Host]

Clayton Williams. Midland, Texas.

[Clayton Williams]

Midland, Texas.

[Interviewer/Host]

Kids?

[Clayton Williams]

Yeah. Two boys. What do we say? 19 and 21.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's what we say.

[Clayton Williams]

That's what she was saying earlier.

[Interviewer/Host]

Can you confirm that you have 19 and 21 year old boys?

[Christy Williams]

Have a 19 and a 21 year old.

[Clayton Williams]

And both, both great hunters and fishermen as well. We indoctrinated them. Texas A and him and hunting and fishing.

[Interviewer/Host]

I love it.

[Clayton Williams]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer/Host]

Christy.

[Christy Williams]

Christy Williams. I'm originally from College Station.

[Interviewer/Host]

Firsttime podcaster.

[Christy Williams]

Firsttime podcaster.

[Interviewer/Host]

Popping your cherry.

[Christy Williams]

Yep. It's got, I guess.

[Interviewer/Host]

Exactly, exactly. We are sitting here in just northwest of Tabazimbe, which is in the northwest province of South Africa. We are on a rhito hunt, which immediately people hearing me say that. Super controversial.

[Clayton Williams]

Agreed.

[Christy Williams]

Super controversial.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's an endangered animal. How dare you hunt it.

[Clayton Williams]

Agreed.

[Interviewer/Host]

And I was the person who said, christy, you are hunting this rhino.

[Christy Williams]

Yes, you are.

[Interviewer/Host]

Give me your. What are your thoughts immediately to it?

[Christy Williams]

I mean, it's probably going to make some people mad. I mean, I know that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Why, why do you think it would make people mad?

[Christy Williams]

Mainly because it's a rhino. And second of all, because I'm a woman and we get more crap from people than the men hunters do.

[Interviewer/Host]

Again, I wouldn't be able to explain the reason why. You get it.

[Christy Williams]

But maybe because we're a better target, easier. We're not going to fight back. I don't know. I mean, I'm going to. I mean, a lot of them don't. We have a friend whose daughter killed a zebra several years ago and they hammered her.

[Interviewer/Host]

Who was that again? I remember that. We got stuck into the fold in that.

[Christy Williams]

That was.

[Interviewer/Host]

It exploded. Right. It went super, super viral.

[Clayton Williams]

I don't remember.

[Christy Williams]

Well, that was that cheerleader that did all the hunting, too.

[Clayton Williams]

Oh, right, right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christy Williams]

But the other one was Macy.

[Clayton Williams]

And then we have another lady there from Midland, Odessa, named Tess Tali, and she got a bunch of trouble for a giraffe. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Back in the day, right? Exactly. Yeah. It's, you know, I don't know. What do you think when you. When you. Obviously we're going to shoot this rhino, you're going to post about it?

[Host]

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[Interviewer/Host]

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[Host]

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[Host]

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[Christy Williams]

Yes, I will. I posted my other one.

[Interviewer/Host]

You've shot a rhino before.

[Christy Williams]

I have.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, man, I didn't know that.

[Christy Williams]

Yep, I have. With Ruan.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Clayton Williams]

Yeah.

[Christy Williams]

What, two years ago?

[Interviewer/Host]

What are your thoughts, Kaden?

[Clayton Williams]

Now, you know, like you said, it's controversial. What do you. What do you do? I mean, you're never gonna tell somebody that doesn't believe you. They're not. You're gonna. Not gonna bring them to your side. But the truth of the matter is, is they're worth a lot of money and, and you're gonna get poached if you don't take care of them. And a hundred dollars come in and they pay for the security to keep these animals alive. And it's a. It's a weird thing to say like that. It's weird for me to say it. It's hard to understand and explain, but it's just the way it is.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's a weird. It's the biggest Paradox that we have to get over. The first paradox is the easiest one, not the easiest one, but the first one we have to deal with is how can you save a species by killing it.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure. Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, now they are on that it's an endangered species. Makes it even more difficult to describe and sort of put across, you know, why you're doing what you're doing from a rhino perspective. It all comes down to statistics in my opinion here in South Africa. And I don't know if you know the statistics and I'm going to give you some of them so that you are armed when you post the rhino. And you know, we've done this with Chris Walters as well. It's like right. Truly understanding. So the reason we're here, the reason I'm here, the reason I'm here with you is we. There was a donated hunt to Dallas Foreclosure foundation last year. It was a package Ruan at Unkulu Adventures gave the rhino. Blaser gave a beautiful 375HollandHolland. And we said we want to be a part of this, to film it. Not only because. And we don't film hunts. Everyone knows that. Nobody. We don't film hunts.

[Clayton Williams]

True.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so we're here, yes, we're going to film your hunt and you'll get something from us out of that. But we're building a docu series here in South Africa around rhinos in 2027. So we're 2026 right now. 2027 will be the 50th anniversary of the delegalization, the banning of trade of rana horn. Did you know that? 1977 out of Kenya in the height of the Tsavo elephant massacres. Rhino massacres in Tsavo. The Kenyan Wildlife Service with the very early bastions of wild of wwf. We're like, what are we going to do? And there's a book and I would highly recommend you find it and you read it. It's by a guy called Raymond Bonner. He owns a little bookstore now in like Melbourne, Australia. He's left. He was an investigative journalist. And the book's name is at the Hand of Man. And at the Hand of man describes this period of the 19 from 1970 through to like 1990 and the rise of the bingos which is the big non profits, the big NGOs like a WWF. The WCS is the humane society of the world and specifically focuses in on this the. The ivory and rhino horn ivory trade ban and the rhino horn trade ban. And in the moment when it happened all the WWF conservation biologists in Kenya, in America were like this, there was this whisper like, we're going to push for the ban, we're going to push for the global ban. And all the conservationists on the ground said, don't do it, don't do it. It's not going to help rhinos, it's not going to help elephants. And the PR comms team of WWF at the time did it as almost like a beta test. They put out like a little poster like, we're banning the trade, we're saving the rhino, we're saving the elephant. Help us do it with a donation link. And they never anticipated the result that they got. They raised money at an astronomical rate. And so then they did that test and they were like, holy shit, we need to do this. And so the PR comms machine overrode the biological assessment on the ground because of money.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

You have to read the book. The book is, I've read it three times.

[Christy Williams]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Host]

And what's interesting is that there were two individuals in that book. There's a lady called Cynthia Moss and a lady called Joyce Poole. They were young elephant researchers at the time, in the mid-70s. Cynthia and Joyce today are the queen bees of the non profit elephant space today.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

50 years later.

[Christy Williams]

Wow.

[Interviewer/Host]

Controlling everything still. And so you've got then this, this push that says, don't you know we trading a rhino horn is a terrible, terrible, terrible thing. Well, what's happened? We've seen massive, massive, massive declines in rhino populations for the last 50 years. Nothing's worked. Somebody this year said, oh, our 2025 statistics are way better. We're 16% lower in our poaching rates in South Africa. The South African government pushed this statistic up. Well, if you actually look at the real numbers on actually what left to what was poached, the percentage never changed.

[Christy Williams]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Because your population's lower. It's not your population before it's lower. So you have to use a different math equation against it. So we're still losing animals to poaching. And then rhino horn itself is the most expensive renewable resource in the world. Nothing touches it, right? Nothing touches it. You know, US$60,000 on the black market per kilo. Unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And the stockpiles that are now in South Africa, in Botswana, in Zim, in Namibia is, you know, there's enough product there for 10 years of, of demand. And the people will say, well, you know, you'll just, you'll just fuel the illegal trade. And I was like, well, the illegal trade's happening right now. Like we can't keep doing the same stuff over. I was commenting on it on an Instagram post yesterday. We've been trying the same stuff for 50 years.

[Christy Williams]

It's not working.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's the definition of insanity. Right. Do the same thing over and over again, expect a different result. You're not going to get it right. And here in South Africa, specifically to your rhino hunt, the place where rhino conservation is working are on private places that either have extremely high end ecotourism charge, two and a half thousand dollars a night or a place like this. Agreed. Where somebody like you guys say we're coming to hunter rhino or we go to Kalahari ar we hunter rhino there or we go to Makuzi, we hunt a rhino there. And you are paying a lot of money to hunter rhino. A lot. But the reason you're paying a lot of money is because I would say. And I'll, I'll get your response to this is that you value a rhino.

[Clayton Williams]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer/Host]

At that number.

[Clayton Williams]

Absolutely.

[Christy Williams]

Absolutely.

[Clayton Williams]

You know what's interesting about this rhino hunting too is if you didn't have this, the, the government in place of the. If you haven't shot a cites animal and you've never sent one across, you can't get your hunting license for a rhino. And so that. That's to keep.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Explain that again.

[Clayton Williams]

Explain the cities. If you haven't used the cites animal and shipped it before, you won't get your license from South Africa to shoot your rhino.

[Interviewer/Host]

So you have to shoot something else.

[Clayton Williams]

Yeah, you have to.

[Interviewer/Host]

Country. Is it any country, China?

[Christy Williams]

Any thing that societies that's had documentation coming in that you were the hunter and this was yours and it's come through US Fish and Wildlife and that's.

[Clayton Williams]

That stopped a lot of the illegal stuff that I had no idea too much money would come over here and kill three or four without any hunting experience.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, okay, okay. Now I understand it. Now understand that makes sense to me. That makes sense. If somebody because they had a big issue with that, had a big issue with Vietnamese guys coming in and acting like they were the hunters but actually they weren't. They just were interested in shooting the animal, get the horn and making right, you know, thousand time profit right on that back.

[Christy Williams]

Apparently they were bringing random people with them to do the same thing.

[Interviewer/Host]

100%. So now I get it. Now I'm not. I just changed my mind mid. Mid podcast. Totally get that. Totally for that.

[Clayton Williams]

Agreed.

[Interviewer/Host]

Totally for that. Because I wouldn't see in my brain Immediately I was like, oh, man, that's stopping somebody from America valuing a rhino. Now that I think through it a little bit more. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't. Because the kind of echelon of people that are hunting a rhino are not just standard fare. Agreed. South African hunter. And they wouldn't really start with a rhino. You would think they would start with maybe something else. Sure.

[Clayton Williams]

Leopard or lion or something like that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Christy Williams]

I was denied on the first one

[Interviewer/Host]

because you hadn't shot anything.

[Christy Williams]

Had anything come through on cities?

[Interviewer/Host]

So what did you have to do?

[Christy Williams]

Well, I got my leopard and they. They approved it, what, like three months later. So.

[Interviewer/Host]

So you reapplied or you left it in?

[Christy Williams]

We left it in.

[Interviewer/Host]

And then sent the information.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah. Once the CITES had come through, then we were able to send that to the African government and then they sent it, you know, verified it with US Fish and Wildlife, and then they approved it. And I was supposed to do it in April or May and ended up doing it in August instead.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Clayton Williams]

One of the things that I think the South African government has done well to kind of stop that. There's obviously things that they're not doing well either. And what can you do? You can't change the government. We're talking about the stores. You're talking about the big stores in South Africa, Botswana, and why not flood the market?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. And so the idea from the antis, the rhetoric from them would say, well, you'll just flood the market now with even more illegal horn. I get it. I get their viewpoint. However, there are some people working behind the scenes right now to set up a. Almost like a diamond trade. Oh, well, exchange, which is what you need.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

You need a regulatory body that can stamp, verify, run a horn. They will be the intermediary between the sellers and the buyers, and it'll work perfectly. And it honestly, you know, and even if it doesn't work perfectly, would we see. At the end of the day, the biggest question I have to ask myself is if you legalized horn trade, would you see a decrease in the amount of rhinos poached illegally?

[Clayton Williams]

If you flood the market and make the rhino horn worth value less, then I would say yes, devalue it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, I would agree. I would agree that you would devalue the horn. There wouldn't be an incentive for people to go out and, and kill more rhinos. Will rhino still be killed illegally? Sure, of course. Agreed. But would it be at a. At a 40% rate? No, it'll be at a 20% rate.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

And a 20% reduction in poaching is a victory.

[Clayton Williams]

Agree.

[Interviewer/Host]

Is a winning. And you know, do you. Does that percentage slowly gradate lower and lower and lower and lower the longer the legalization is in place? My gut says yes. The only, you know, the biggest concern, apart from that illegal sort of mixing in, is the idea of potentially farming of rhinos coming online. What do you think?

[Clayton Williams]

Farming the horn?

[Interviewer/Host]

Farming the horn.

[Clayton Williams]

Wasn't there a program here in South Africa? A rancher was doing that and growing them and cutting them off and storing and I'm not sure if he's still doing it. I don't think.

[Interviewer/Host]

No, he's not.

[Clayton Williams]

I've heard some bad things.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, he got, well, we, you know,

[Clayton Williams]

they got ran over.

[Interviewer/Host]

Innocent until proven guilty. He's right now in stuck up in the courts. But he had to sell all his rhinos. Africa Parks bought all the rhinos, 2,000 rhinos. But he was like, yeah, this is a valuable commodity and I'll farm it just like a, a piece of cattle or a piece of sheep. Is that something that we want to be, that we want to see in the wildlife industry space for an iconic animal like a rhino? My gut says no. But am I being hypocritical because we do the same thing for impala? Do you do the same thing for giraffe? Do we do the same thing for other animals? And the answer is yes, I'm being hypocritical, but I'm also being hypocritical because it's a rhino. Right. And it's iconic. It's the same thing with, you know, lions. You know, the whole captive bred lion in hunting industry is it's in a space because it's a lion. Everyone was like, well, we do it for impala, we do it for sable. You put sable out, you put kudu out and people come hunted. Yes, they do, but it's not a lion. There's a connotation, there's certain connotations with animals. You've just got to accept it. It's a societal pariah over it. It's like that's what it is. And so rhino farming, I wouldn't be for. And again, if you think from a legalization perspective, you can put things in place, okay, we're only going to take rhino horn from wild reared, wild harvested rhino, whatever it is, I don't know. Again, we're not getting, we're not building laws right now.

[Clayton Williams]

But wait, what was. At one point, they were dying the

[Interviewer/Host]

horn red and They've tried all sorts of radioactive. Right now they've got like this radioactivity that they stick in the horn to detect it going through customs.

[Clayton Williams]

I thought, well, it's already cut off and dead.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, it's already done.

[Christy Williams]

They're doing that with the ivory too, correct?

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, they're trying to. Yeah, they're trying to. So it's, Yeah, I think there's a lot of feelings, obviously, when it comes to big animals and iconic animals and endangered animals and those kinds of things that we just got to. I feel like, especially you guys, you guys live in the social media sphere. You're very active in it, you know, and I don't want to, your, your first reaction may be to just like give them the middle finger and go screw off.

[Clayton Williams]

You know, I, I, I think it's easier to blow off than that. You know, we were talking about Chris Walters and the, the rhino he did with you. And I found a website and I can't remember what it was.

[Interviewer/Host]

Something about exposed trophy hunting.

[Clayton Williams]

Exposed trophy hunting on Twitter. And so I, I was trying to find Chris's picture and I knew it was in there and they still had the picture of Lacy with the leopard. And I just punched in rhino. And I'm looking down the picture and go, there I am with the rhino too. I didn't realize I was in there already.

[Interviewer/Host]

You were in there already. Exposed trophy hunter.

[Host]

Nice.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Good job.

[Clayton Williams]

You know, that's good exposure too. I, I, I was talking about sending him a picture like once a week. Make friends with them.

[Interviewer/Host]

I think instead of giving them the middle finger, you can give them some

[Clayton Williams]

facts, exactly what you've been doing. Thank you so much.

[Interviewer/Host]

You're welcome. You can give them some emotion. Right. You can also say, like, it was bloody hard for me too. You know, it's tough. Like that thing's a prehistoric animal and

[Christy Williams]

it is, they're unbelievable out there to see.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, you'll just wait until you're super up close in person. Agreed.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah. I mean, it is.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, you've done it already.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

How is it?

[Christy Williams]

It's intense. It's crazy. They're ginormous animals. They're very smart. I mean, it just, we played hide and seek for hours. It was, it was a serious hunt.

[Clayton Williams]

Yeah.

[Christy Williams]

I mean, it's not just a walk up and shoot.

[Clayton Williams]

Right.

[Christy Williams]

You know, some people think that, I mean, they think that a lot of these things we do is, it's a shoot, it's, we're not shooting.

[Interviewer/Host]

Why do you think people think that? Is it the way that we're broadcasting

[Christy Williams]

what we do, I think it's ignorance. I mean, I don't think. I just don't think they understand anything.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, but is it ignorance or is it. For instance, they see somebody hunting, they see the videos that we create. They don't look hard. Oh, yeah, I watched the video this morning before breakfast, just like number four, Inyala. And literally it. It said in a title, inyala, from the truck, right?

[Christy Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

And the guy shot a bow from the truck and shot an Impala. Do we blame them for being ignorant?

[Clayton Williams]

That it's easy, you know, but it's

[Interviewer/Host]

not always easy if they. Okay, I know, I know, but what I'm trying to say is how do we communicate that it's not easy? Are we doing ourselves a disservice?

[Clayton Williams]

We very well could be.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah. I don't know. I have several friends that are not hunters, didn't really understand what we did, and every single one of them support what I do. I mean, I've had some people come for us on Facebook on things, and I am surprised by the people that come to my defense. They are non hunters, but they're people that know me and they've. We have a friend from high school that's a biologist, and she's been over here and so she's been able to explain to those people, too, some of the biology side of it, you know, and I don't know, some of those people you just. You can't even talk to. There's. There's no rationale there.

[Interviewer/Host]

So in my. In my mind for again to give you a little piece of advice, because we live in this. We live in this world every single day. Those people that you just, you. You can see it immediately. You will never change them.

[Clayton Williams]

Agreed.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Host]

I want you.

[Interviewer/Host]

The next time something like that happens, I want you to approach it like, I'm not changing that person's mind, but a thousand people are going to about to read what you are, the way that you respond and the way that you interact with that individual. And of those thousand people that just read what you wrote, maybe 500 go, wow, that makes sense.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

Wow. I never knew that that was part of the hunt or I never knew that about a hunter.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah. I mean, I had a girl that we know come after me on one

[Interviewer/Host]

of our posts, and what was her deal?

[Christy Williams]

Her husband hunts. Okay, how could you shoot. My son had taken an elephant. How could you let him shoot that majestic animal?

[Clayton Williams]

I love him.

[Christy Williams]

Well, but what's. Then how do you let Your husband shoot a majestic deer. I mean, it's all above board here. It's all legal. We're not breaking any laws. Just like him that goes out and hunts a deer. I mean, the people here eat this meat and that. They just. They don't.

[Clayton Williams]

That's one of the most questions I get. What do you do with the rest of it? It's hard to explain. Nothing goes to waste here. Nothing. Until you see it yourself, you're not ever going to grasp it. It's like coming to Africa the first time. You can't go home and tell people what a beautiful place this is and try to explain it to them until they see it themselves. Might have to be that.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, but you could also show them

[Clayton Williams]

if they'll watch.

[Interviewer/Host]

No, but it's out there. That's the beauty about the Internet right now. You put it out there, somehow it's going to be. It's going to be out there. It's out there forever. Now let's read. Right, Right. And then. And with AI, the way that AI is working today and search engines, all of that information just starts. Like one of the things that a lot of people don't know, you probably don't even know this, that is happening behind the scenes always. And so you won't ever see it. But say, here, I'm on Facebook right now, right. And I'll go to my personal page and let's see how long it takes. One, two, three. Third thing down was a sponsored ad.

[Clayton Williams]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay. A lot of people don't realize that it's like every third or fourth post that you see on Facebook. So I just went down. Here's another one that only took two to get sponsored. 1 sponsored. 2 real, 2 sponsored. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 sponsored. That's how much sponsored in ads you get. Okay. A lot of people don't know that I have a sponsored ad. The Origins foundation has a sponsored ad.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

And I pay. And it's the worst marketing ROI that you can expect. So I'm not selling a product. What we do is we in that sponsored ad is a little video. And it. It's a little video from a piece of. From our. One of our pieces of content or it's me explaining something or whatnot. And that money we put, I think 500 bucks a month or a thousand bucks a month before behind Meta every. Every month. And that content gets infused into people's phones that do not hunt. Campers, bikers, recreational hikers, outdoors people.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

And it. All it is, is I'm Just planting. I'm just dropping seeds constantly because they, somebody again, they see that sponsor and they read it and they're like, oh, I didn't know that about that. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh man. What's this? Let me click this.

[Christy Williams]

Right?

[Interviewer/Host]

And so like in terms of like changing narratives, changing rhetoric, there's ways and means now like we were talking about like, hey, get more of your content out there. When it comes to showing where the meat goes.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

You know, you're really good at, you know, your thumbs up pictures. It's your, it's your iconic thing. It's what you are.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

Right. You know, maybe now once you finish, you know, you shoot that buffalo, you're going to take a selfie video and go, hey, by the way, that buffalo, the whole buffalo is going to be eaten by a local village.

[Clayton Williams]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Thumbs up.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

And all of a sudden now you, it's almost like you've got your, you've got the sexy piece of content which is, and again, I think we, we do ourselves a disservice because, and I can, I can guarantee you right now, we put a thousand dollar bet. Robbie. I'm going to post a picture of me behind a dug boy with my thumb up or I'm going to put a video with me saying that this, this buffalo meet is going to the local community. Thumbs up, which is going to get more engagement post number one. I agree, it will. Because the people that follow you are hunters. They're of your tribe. They understand what that is. Right. It's what, that's how we've been communicating since the advent of this thing.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay. However, the way that I describe what this thing is now, today, because our communication style hasn't changed. Your communication style right now with your thumbs up. If I had to harken a guess in 1995, you're probably taking the same kind of photo, sending it around to different friends.

[Clayton Williams]

Pretty much.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, so your communication style has not changed even though this thing has become a part of our lives.

[Clayton Williams]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so now this thing is, the three of us are now. And I've got, I've built this like little AI image. Got this. We're sitting together and we're in a glass house, we're in a greenhouse and we're talking and we're like, hey, look at this beautiful elk. Hey, look at this elephant. Hey, you're showing me. We're all glee smiling whatnot. It's awesome. But outside of our glass house is a stadium of 200 million people. And they're all looking down over our shoulders, like this guy. I don't like what that guy just posted. Oh, look at what this guy's doing. That's terrible. And the only reason they can do it is because of this.

[Clayton Williams]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

And the communication pathways that are now in this thing. And a lot of people. Here's the one thing that a lot of people forget. Social media is one thing. WhatsApp's worse.

[Clayton Williams]

Really?

[Interviewer/Host]

WhatsApp's worse because how do you think the Cecil picture got out? What's up? Because somebody takes a photo and it's a communication platform here and just shoots it. And as soon as it's gone from your phone, you have absolutely no control about where it goes from there.

[Clayton Williams]

Agreed.

[Interviewer/Host]

No control. And it'll go like absolute hellfire.

[Clayton Williams]

Agreed.

[Interviewer/Host]

Around the world like this. Two minutes. Here's how I know I was. I gave up a presentation in Austria two weeks ago, and in it I talked about this exact thing. I said, I guarantee you somebody in here is going to take a photo of me and it's going to go around the world in two minutes. When I got off the stage, There was a WhatsApp picture of me on my phone from someone in Spain that was on his way to New Zealand.

[Clayton Williams]

How about that? Just like that.

[Christy Williams]

That fast?

[Interviewer/Host]

Just like that.

[Clayton Williams]

Now we're learning some of that as we go.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, we. And. Yeah, we are. And you just have to learn, you know, and you think, oh, no, this. I'll take a cool video that I'm. I won't show anybody that video online. Oh, but I'll share it through WhatsApp.

[Clayton Williams]

Right. You.

[Interviewer/Host]

You honestly have no control. Once that video leaves your phone, you have no idea who forwarded it. Sure. No idea. That's why the disappearing messages are such a cool thing. So if, if I was recommending something to you, if you want to share those. Those harder videos, put the disappearing function on.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

You can't. You can't screenshot it either.

[Clayton Williams]

Oh, yeah, that's nice. I've seen it. It's frustrating because I try to go back.

[Interviewer/Host]

Super frustrating. But I'm telling you, it is like a level of protection that a lot of people don't know is there.

[Clayton Williams]

I've never thought of using it, but I've seen other people use it.

[Host]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Especially on this rhino hunt. Right. This rhino hunt is going to be, you know, you're a woman. It's a rhino hunt.

[Christy Williams]

Both are controversial.

[Interviewer/Host]

I wouldn't say a woman hunting is controversial. Maybe hunting a rhino. Yeah. Okay. I Can. I can see that. But do you think you get more hate than Clayton?

[Christy Williams]

I do. I mean, Clayton put whatever he wants, nobody says anything. And I've got people that I know

[Interviewer/Host]

that say he looks crazy, though, man. Just look at him coming to get you.

[Christy Williams]

I've made some threats back, I'm sure, I'm sure.

[Clayton Williams]

In, in a respectful, ladylike manner.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yes.

[Christy Williams]

Like, yeah, I'm gonna air your dirty laundry if you want to talk bad about my kids.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Well, again, you know, from a rhino perspective, I think it's a super defensible position in terms of what private landowners are doing for rhino conservation. The cost of security. Like, we're in a place that, honestly, you flew in here and drove in here. I drove in, drove in here at night. It's in the middle of nowhere.

[Clayton Williams]

Agreed.

[Interviewer/Host]

Like, we are in. There's no main roads around us, it is very difficult to get to. And the rhino density is not that high.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

So for you to find a rhino in here and come in here and know where the rhinos are, you've got some serious intelligence backing you. Otherwise, you're just hoping and praying.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure. Thank heavens for the organizations that we take part in, the DSC Foundation. And it's easy to talk to the right people. Our world is very small and if you come into it, you don't know what you're doing. You should talk to somebody first.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that we're hoping to do in the show season next year with this docu series, so we're filming again, we didn't, maybe I didn't even get to it that we're filming you here because it's a part of the bigger docu series for South Africa. We will have rhino owners in South Africa during the show season, specifically the guys out of the Northern Cape where they have, you know, significant numbers of rhino down there. The rockwoods of the world, the winters hooks of the world, the Kalahari oryx, chapung kambakus of the world. Those individuals, when they're in show season next year, we hope to put them in front of Fish and Wildlife Service.

[Clayton Williams]

Beautiful.

[Interviewer/Host]

Because the whole plan 2027 being the 50th anniversary of the trade ban, but 2028 is when the next CITES COP happens in Panama. And last year they had a proposal on Namibia to de escalate the rhino horn from Appendix 1. De escalate, not the right term. D list from Appendix one to Appendix two, and it failed. But the silver lining to that cloud was that 31 people did vote yes.

[Clayton Williams]

How about that? You should hopefully see that number go higher.

[Interviewer/Host]

It wasn't, it wasn't 8 like it was before.

[Host]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

And so now it's politics and it's now us starting to think like the others other side. How do we get more support? And Even if in 28, the rhino horn trade ban fails again, the goal for us will be for us to say yes to it, lead the way. And if we can get all these rhino owners in front of the right people at Fish and Wildlife Service, at doi. And then what we do is we say, okay, Fish and Wildlife Service, doi, come to South Africa, come see it. Let us show you what's happening on the ground. Let us show you the investment in security that happens. Let us show you who are the people actually doing the work and help them. If you truly are for pro wildlife conservation, it makes sense. Especially if when you have again, you have to have all the pieces in play. You can't just say willy nilly, yes, let's do the trade.

[Christy Williams]

Right?

[Interviewer/Host]

Put the trade, you know, the trade exchange in place. There's somebody working on that right now. Put that in place. Show how it works. Show the mechanisms.

[Host]

There.

[Interviewer/Host]

Done.

[Clayton Williams]

Well, I hope it works.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, it's a weird species. I don't know if you, you probably know this, but you know that the rhino horn is appendix one. That's why you need the government official here and you need your CITES export permit, whatnot. But the rhino itself is an appendix to animal.

[Clayton Williams]

Just the horn.

[Interviewer/Host]

Just the horn.

[Clayton Williams]

How about that?

[Interviewer/Host]

It's separated. So the leather, the lever, you don't need your. Any sort of the sighting stuff that you went through. It's appendix to.

[Christy Williams]

Just for the horn.

[Interviewer/Host]

Just the horn. Crazy, huh? Yeah, because that's why you can't. Once you chop the horn off, you can't just do what you want with it.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure. Plug it and all that crazy.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, it's the first time we're spending in camp together.

[Clayton Williams]

Yes, sir.

[Interviewer/Host]

Hunting camp.

[Clayton Williams]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Host]

Glad to be here. Tell me. I want to before we. We've been talking about rhinos constantly. But your biggest love is buffalo.

[Clayton Williams]

We heart.

[Interviewer/Host]

This is an audio medium. You have to talk, Chris, even though this is your channel.

[Clayton Williams]

This, this is actually something new for us. We've been doing about four or five years and our friend Chance Parker got us into it and it's.

[Interviewer/Host]

I.

[Clayton Williams]

It's highly addictive.

[Interviewer/Host]

So are you doing okay now? Because I love buffalo too. Okay. And the reason I like. And I've never Shot a Cape buffalo. So I get to do it in Tanzania this year for the first time.

[Clayton Williams]

Good.

[Interviewer/Host]

But My grandfather had a.416 Rigby open sights. I've got that gun back. I think you've heard the story about the gun. And he did it on the Salve river in Mozambique. Robert Ruark had a camp there. Robert Ruach hunted with my grandfather, you know, and it's right across from the Zanavi National Park. And we think Mark Haldane. There's some rumors that there may be an operational opportunity in Kata 4, which is that safarilandia area. So for sure, in my lifetime, probably the next 10, 15 years, I'll be able to hunt a buffalo in Kata 4, the same river, walk the same steps that my grandfather hunted a buffalo in with the same gun 70 years later.

[Clayton Williams]

That's awesome.

[Christy Williams]

Pretty cool.

[Interviewer/Host]

So given that story, I'm like, okay, I'm. I'm super interested in hunting the buffalo. So I've shot the Argentinian Buffalo with a416 Rigby open sights. Australian Buffalo, 416 Rigby open sites. A scrub bull, a Bantang. That's it. From a. From a. A buffalo perspective. But I'm also super curious. And like I told Jay Ler down in South Texas, I said, I want to kill one of those, like, Mexican bulls. Did you do that with feral? Yeah. No, I haven't done it with him yet.

[Clayton Williams]

I've seen some people do that with.

[Interviewer/Host]

I'm waiting. He's like, he's looking for a bull right now for me, but I'm like, those, like, feral cows. There's some feral cows in the mountains of New Zealand and feral cows in the middle of Hawaii and stuff like that. I don't know. I'm just like you. Maybe not just like. You're singularly focused on Cape buffalo, right?

[Clayton Williams]

Pretty much. What the. Yeah, pretty much. For right now, I. I think from here on out, for me, you know, some of those.

[Interviewer/Host]

Have you found Australia yet?

[Clayton Williams]

No, no, dude, I've been to Australia, but I was over fishing.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay. Look at the Northern Territory. I. If you love Cape buffalo hunting. And again, I've never shot a Cape buffalo. I've been up close and personal with Cape buffalo, but not. I've never shot one. Australia is like Africa, but no people.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Interviewer/Host]

And just millions and millions of acres and not. And lots of buffalo. Like, lots of proper buffalo.

[Clayton Williams]

Sure.

[Host]

We've actually.

[Clayton Williams]

We've brought up this subject before. We have friends that have done all that, and they just say it's not the same. It's just not anywhere as tough as Cape buffalo.

[Interviewer/Host]

They aren't. You're correct. They aren't as tough and they're not as. You know, again, I've never shot a Cape buffalo. I think part of the. Again, tell me, is it part of the adrenaline of that Cape buffalo is, you know, things can go wrong.

[Clayton Williams]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer/Host]

And there's. There's. And it's black death for a reason.

[Clayton Williams]

We're putting ourselves in harm's way.

[Interviewer/Host]

The Australian buffalo is not black death.

[Clayton Williams]

Right.

[Interviewer/Host]

This is black death.

[Clayton Williams]

Yes.

[Host]

Yes.

[Christy Williams]

Well, and there's everything else out there, too. I mean, we were hunting buffalo at the last camp, and there's leopard tracks on top of our tracks on top of buffalo tracks.

[Interviewer/Host]

So tell me about. We talked about this last night. Tell me about the Moya Wasi camp that you went into and the lion cubs.

[Christy Williams]

Oh, yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh.

[Clayton Williams]

Oh, yeah. The first night we're in camp. Yeah. What an amazing.

[Host]

So let's just.

[Interviewer/Host]

Let's just back up a little bit because people are like, where is that? Explain how to even. How you even got there.

[Clayton Williams]

Oh, my goodness.

[Christy Williams]

We flew into Arusha.

[Clayton Williams]

No. Kilimanjo.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Clayton Williams]

And then bopped over to Arusha. And then a private flight out to Moyawasi.

[Interviewer/Host]

And how long was that private flight?

[Clayton Williams]

I was. Hour and a half. You're in the middle of nowhere.

[Interviewer/Host]

That's a proper 2 million acres in the middle of nowhere.

[Clayton Williams]

You see right where the forest starts and where the civilization. Civilization quits.

[Interviewer/Host]

It is proper, proper end of the world Africa.

[Clayton Williams]

One of the things about Moiwasi, too, and a lot of people don't know, is it's. It's a conservation story, a success story, 100%. There was a war back in, I think, 2012. They were talking about and basically killed all elephant out of there. And we saw elephant in there this time, and it's all done by hundreds of dollars. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Host]

And the lions are coming back.

[Clayton Williams]

Agreed.

[Interviewer/Host]

Adam Clements is in there right now, and Gunham Safaris are in there right now. And both of them are doing just right. Unbelievable work.

[Christy Williams]

We saw lots of lions. We were there for a lion hunt.

[Interviewer/Host]

So you came into camp and came

[Christy Williams]

into camp and our, you know, come in, go shoot your guns, do all that, have dinner, a couple drinks, and we go to bed. And about.

[Clayton Williams]

Right when we got in bed.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah, about. Yeah. Not even very long after this noise starts erupting.

[Interviewer/Host]

But you knew that the lioness had brought.

[Christy Williams]

No, we didn't.

[Clayton Williams]

We didn't until the next day.

[Christy Williams]

We didn't know really what was going on. It just was sheer chaos outside of javelina.

[Clayton Williams]

I mean, hyenas.

[Christy Williams]

But it was the. It was. It was the mama, you know, making noises a little bit at first, and then the hyena went nuts. And then she's making. I mean, it's just this growling and this barking and there's just weird noises going on, you know, that there's something out there. But.

[Clayton Williams]

And.

[Interviewer/Host]

And you're in a flimsy little canvas tent.

[Clayton Williams]

In a flimsy little canvas tent 30, 40 yards away.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah. I mean, it is maybe in between the tent right there. And then the roars get loud and the hyenas stop. And apparently the next morning, the guys told us what we had heard. We had heard mama come in and place her cubs.

[Interviewer/Host]

Linus.

[Christy Williams]

Yes, Linus. Linus. Come in and place her cubs, they assumed probably in between the tents or maybe even underneath one of them because they're up on platforms. And then the hyenas came in while she was at the water hole and killed her cubs. And she walked around all night crying.

[Clayton Williams]

She walked. She made enough noise that a big male came in too. And he got roaring as well.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah. And then he ran them off. And then all that other noise stopped. And you just listened to her just. I mean, all night she cried looking for them. It was. It was hard to listen to. It really was. Especially when you found out the next morning what had really happened.

[Interviewer/Host]

And. So tell me a little bit, explain. I want to hear a little bit more from your heart because you're there to lion hunt. You're there to kill a lion. Kristi, yet.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah, but I'm there for like, I was looking for scar. Like I wanted an old bruised.

[Clayton Williams]

The lion she shot was going to make it another year. That's wasted revenue. That's. That's for more anti poaching.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. But you were sad for.

[Christy Williams]

I was sad for the mama and her cubs, absolutely. And I mean, I sad a little bit for the animals when we take them too. I mean, there's a little bit of, you know, I don't know if sadness is really a thing, but there's also the gratitude for.

[Clayton Williams]

It's an emotional event.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah. For, you know, them giving their life and it just. I don't know, but I got exactly what I went there to get. I didn't shoot some big, beautiful Disney lion. I shot an old who was by himself. Nobody with him.

[Clayton Williams]

No teeth.

[Christy Williams]

No teeth. I mean, he was proper. He was on his way out. Probably the more humane way for him. To go out than start or a hyena. Yeah. So. But I mean when we do this, generally it's not. I mean, we've not hunted mamas. We don't hunt babies. The first rhino that I, that I got, he got put on the sale because he had killed a mama and her baby. And I mean mamas are worth more. They're the ones that bring more life into the world.

[Interviewer/Host]

Totally.

[Christy Williams]

You know, you can have one male that populates many females.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, yeah, totally. So have you guys and have you had any like absolute hair raising, like an experience with a buffalo that you're like, holy.

[Clayton Williams]

Not yet.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay, tell me, Christy.

[Christy Williams]

Well, last trip in bots, we were elephant hunting.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Christy Williams]

And unsuccessfully. So calm down. But we were like in the middle of it and the elephants are making noise and all of a sudden you hear the stampede coming and it's our whole herd of buffalo. And they stopped right there.

[Clayton Williams]

A big bull stopped and he looked at us and he just looked down four, four or six barrels and decided he didn't want to be there anymore. Took the rest of them with him.

[Interviewer/Host]

So that's the right here.

[Clayton Williams]

That's the closest we've come.

[Interviewer/Host]

Never had a, an incident post shot.

[Clayton Williams]

Well, the way we hunt is. Alleviates some of that. We're hunting. When we were hunting, we were hunting together.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Clayton Williams]

Christy and I, we have Chance Parker with us.

[Interviewer/Host]

Okay.

[Clayton Williams]

There's three doubles and usually our ph has it over. There's four doubles right there. So it's, it's quick.

[Interviewer/Host]

And you guys have like an unspoken rule.

[Clayton Williams]

Absolutely.

[Interviewer/Host]

If it's Christie's buffalo and she shoots, if that thing. Somebody back you up.

[Christy Williams]

Always. That's the, that's the. I shoot.

[Clayton Williams]

That's how we do it.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh really?

[Christy Williams]

Yeah. I shoot. You shoot. And when, I mean you shoot anybody else with a gun shoot like let's

[Interviewer/Host]

put that buffalo down right now.

[Clayton Williams]

Right now.

[Interviewer/Host]

We don't want any. Chase it.

[Christy Williams]

We don't want to chase it.

[Clayton Williams]

We don't want to leave a wounded buffalo. Somebody get hurt.

[Christy Williams]

Yeah.

[Clayton Williams]

And that, you know, putting it down like that. We're not chasing it. And the, the four guns there is going to keep you safer. These buffalo people, that people have been getting killed by buffalo, you be. It's something you have in your mind. Whether doubles there or was it just a bolt action.

[Interviewer/Host]

Do you think it's one or two guns or I can understand somebody. I can and I can't. And maybe again, because I've never hunted. Okay. Buffalo. I'd love your opinion on this. You guys have made a choice. Christy, this is your buffalo today, right? Christie's first shot goes in. Clayton chants boom, boom. Buffalo goes down. A lot of people don't do that because they don't feel like then that's their buffalo.

[Clayton Williams]

And a lot of those people are losing their buffalo and they're being attacked by buffalo. We had a guy that was in Tanzania at the same time we were, and it, you know, it's just a style. It worked well for us. It's. It's a blast. We enjoy it very much.

[Christy Williams]

It makes it a group sport.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, I can see the camaraderie element of it. And look, I was like, I haven't thought about this for. For Tanzania when I shoot, because I'm going to bolt. I don't have a double. If I shoot, would I want somebody with a double next to me shooting at the same time?

[Clayton Williams]

You're going to want somebody with a double next to you regardless.

[Host]

Of course. Of course.

[Interviewer/Host]

No, but would I want them to back me up? As soon as I shoot, I want you to put a bullet in that buffalo at the same time that buffalo is yours.

[Clayton Williams]

As soon as your bullet hits it, it's yours. Whether we help or not. I think.

[Interviewer/Host]

I think I honestly, I might have just changed my mind because I thought that I would, like n. I don't think that's something I'd be, like, want to do. But again, you want, at the end of the day, that buffalo. You want that buffalo to be as efficiently taken.

[Clayton Williams]

Respectfully.

[Interviewer/Host]

Respectfully taken as quickly as possible. And you don't want to chase it, right?

[Christy Williams]

Well, you. I mean, it's. It's. The chase is not only stressful to you, but it stresses them out, too. Like, that's not what we're there to do. We're not there to make them suffer or, you know, any. Like, it's. It is very hard to walk after a wounded animal. It messes with your psyche.

[Interviewer/Host]

Oh, 100%.

[Host]

We've all done it.

[Clayton Williams]

It just does spend the night waiting for one.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, even a deer, right, Walks off or runs off, and you're like, damn, I've got a track. And you're like, oh, man, what am I going to find? Am I going to find it?

[Clayton Williams]

Always.

[Interviewer/Host]

It's that hunter's.

[Clayton Williams]

Yeah, sure.

[Christy Williams]

I mean, it does. It gets. It gets in your head. So the more efficiently you can get

[Interviewer/Host]

that done, I think you guys have just sold, the better.

[Clayton Williams]

It makes it quite a bit enjoyable.

[Christy Williams]

I mean, I shot one at the last camp, and I Shot him in the head. And before he even could crater, Chance and Scruff put around in him so fast that we didn't. None of us realized that they had both shot, including them. Like, I just thought Chance had shot. Chance thought it was just me. Their rifles went off at the exact same time.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Because it was all on the same page.

[Christy Williams]

I shoot, you shoot.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah.

[Christy Williams]

You know, we do not want him to really don't want him to take another step. You want them to fall right there and be done.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. So what's next? We'll finish this podcast with what's next in terms of buffalo, where are we going next?

[Clayton Williams]

We don't see buffalo again until Tanzania next summer. We're going with Mike Fell. We did lion, leopard, elephant, and as many buffalo as we can get our hands on.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well said.

[Clayton Williams]

No, we're taking our boys, and Parker's going with us and maybe Justin Haynes as well, who's our other partner that we hunt with a lot.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, yeah.

[Clayton Williams]

Lots of fun.

[Interviewer/Host]

Amazing. Well, appreciate spending time with you in

[Clayton Williams]

camp, and we're gonna have a beautiful day tomorrow.

[Christy Williams]

Well, we got Chris and Lacy in on this.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah, we definitely, definitely.

[Christy Williams]

She went and got herself a double gun.

[Interviewer/Host]

Yeah. Next year, we'll get Chris and Lacy involved.

[Clayton Williams]

There we go.

[Interviewer/Host]

All right.

[Clayton Williams]

Yeah. Sounds real good.

[Interviewer/Host]

Thanks, guys. Good fun.

[Christy Williams]

Thank you.

[Interviewer/Host]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.