Episode 664 - Rhino Conservation Roundtable, Part 2

Summary

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The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 664 - Rhino Conservation Roundtable, Part 2

Release Date: August 11, 2026
Host: Rodney Kroger (as main panelist)
Featured Guests:

• Lewis (Slots Media)
• Jack (Slots Media)
• Freddie (Filmmaker, first time in Africa)
• Robbie (Producer/Facilitator)

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Episode Overview

This episode is the second roundtable on rhino conservation, bringing together the cinematography team three and a half weeks after their initial experience in the field. In Part 2, the panel discusses how their perspectives and understanding around rhino conservation have evolved through direct encounters with rhino security, anti-poaching units, landowners, trackers, and through witnessing the economic and regulatory challenges faced by private rhino custodians in southern Africa.

Freddie’s unique perspective is especially highlighted as a newcomer with no hunting background and no previous exposure to African conservation realities.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Evolving Perspectives After Field Experience

Timestamps: [10:26]–[17:46]

• Lewis expresses surprise at the intensive management found at places like Rockwood, where rhinos are brought into enclosures at night:
  • “I didn't think there was that much intensive husbandry involved... walking in amongst rhino that are so relaxed around humans is weird.” [10:26]
• The contrast between Rockwood (semi-habituated rhinos) and entirely wild populations elsewhere is discussed.
• Freddie recounts how exposure to so many rhinos in close quarters changed his comfort level—from nervousness to a sort of nonchalance, which he admits is dangerous:
  • “There were times towards the end where I felt myself getting too worried... But I was like—all I have to do is click my fingers, and they'll disappear... whereas in reality...” [16:44]
• Memorable moment: Discussion of their near run-ins with rhinos, including Lewis and Jack almost getting trampled by a young rhino they had just darted and the team joking about disaster scenarios.

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2. The Economic Precipice and Private Rhino Owners

Timestamps: [13:21]–[22:14]

• Jack is shocked by the financial vulnerability of private rhino owners:
  • “I was just under the impression... the rhino are paying the way for them... That was a shock to me.” [13:21]
  • The reality: Most owners subsidize rhino conservation with income from other businesses; it’s a “passion project.”
• Owners are essentially trapped—they can’t easily exit conservation because there’s “no one to take the rhino,” and giving them to state parks is tantamount to “a death sentence.”
• The group identifies a shift in the main threat:
  • “The threat to rhinos has shifted... from poaching to the economic model that they’re stuck in.” —Jack [20:31]
  • Rodney: “The landscape of fear is now hampering rhino conservation more than poaching.” [21:20]

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3. Regulatory Hurdles and Lack of Export Options

Timestamps: [22:51]–[27:37]

• South African government restrictions prevent viable live trade of rhinos to places like Namibia, making private conservation even harder.
• The panel questions the logic:
  • “Why would the South African government... say you can’t export live rhino? But you can kill a rhino in South Africa and export the trophy.” —Jack [23:46]
• The bureaucracy (monitoring, bans on future trade) pushes potential buyers away, and everyone agrees the regulations are counterproductive.

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4. The “Rhino Horn Trade” Debates

Timestamps: [28:00]–[36:42]

• The panel tackles whether legalizing the rhino horn trade—allowing owners to sell shed/dehorned horn—would reduce poaching:
  • Freddie: “It seemed that every [owner] said that’s what they needed…the horn trade lets them keep going…” [28:00]
• Rodney points out historic data—pre-moratorium, poaching was negligible because legal supply existed.
• Jack: “People need to get down off their high horse... If their objective is more rhino, fewer poached, does it matter [where supply comes from]?” [30:07]
• Arguments against trade: Organized crime may have moved in since the moratorium; would legal trade truly disincentivize poaching, or simply shift tactics?
• Lewis: “The price would collapse very quickly…suddenly everyone selling, the price is going to crash.” [32:39]
• Consensus: No one knows exactly what would happen until it’s tried, but status quo “doesn’t work.” [34:56]

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5. Structural Problems in Conservation Governance

Timestamps: [43:10]–[46:16]

• Jack and the team express frustration that countries with no rhino populations (e.g., Germany) have equal or greater say in CITES (the international convention governing endangered species):
  • “It’s neo-colonialism that someone in Germany can veto rhino horn trade...” [43:51]
  • “Countries without rhino have the same vote as those with the resource—it’s a flawed system.” —Rodney [43:37]
• Calls for a new, more representative system for sustainable-use countries; but the legal and diplomatic inertia around CITES makes change unlikely.

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6. Legal Loopholes and Future Prospects

Timestamps: [45:03]–[49:03]

• Discussion on the court ruling in the Northern Cape allowing certain private rhino breeding/conservation facilities to sell horn under CITES exemptions.
• Rodney: “You can go to your local store in the UK or US and buy a ball python—that takes pressure off the wild population...same structure could happen for rhinos.” [45:03]
• The potential for a trade “blueprint”: If one owner wins the legal right, others (including ecotourism operations) may follow.

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7. Memorable Quotes and Moments

• On the human cost:
  • “Those people that are coming to get the rhino have no sense of human life—like, they'll kill me just to get that rhino horn. No problems.” —Rodney [19:09]
• On authenticity:
  • “A lot of the people commenting...don’t own rhino. And they're saying, 'No, we know what you want.' But they're telling you and you’re not listening.” —Jack [37:16]
• On the absurdity of the ‘get rich’ accusation:
  • “It’s almost laughable...These are very good businessmen who have made money in other areas. What makes you think all three of them would make the same mistake—to have rhinos for decades on the off chance someone...is going to legalize the horn trade?” —Jack [38:53]
• On bureaucracy:
  • “It’s like you buying a box of cereal from the supermarket—and having to tell them every time you have a bowl.” —Lewis [27:13]
• On legacy:
  • “If the legalization of the horn trade occurs...all of the ecotourism places that have rhino...would sell their rhino horn from dead rhino to make money for their properties.” —Rodney [41:43]

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Lighthearted & Notable Moments

• Panelists joke about how Freddie might die in the bush ([03:03]–[06:11]): cuddle a mamba, drown in a puddle, stung by a scorpion.
• Banter about accommodations in Panama for future CITES meetings, with Freddie offering recommendations for rooftop bars ([49:24]–[50:01]).
• The episode ends with tongue-in-cheek claims about producing “probably the biggest and best rhino documentary ever,” and Freddie being handed “the last word” ([50:18]–[50:34]).

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Concluding Takeaways

• Intensive first-hand experience has deepened and, in some cases, radically altered viewpoints on rhino conservation for the team, especially for newcomers like Freddie.
• The primary existential threat for privately conserved rhino populations is economic and regulatory—not just poaching.
• There’s strong consensus (outside government circles) among actual rhino custodians that regulated horn trade may be the only viable future, but policymakers are far removed from on-the-ground realities.
• The debate about legalizing horn trade remains unresolved but urgent; the next 2 years, and particularly decisions at CITES, will be critical.

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Suggested Timestamp Navigation

• Opening Setup, Participant Backgrounds: [00:00]–[03:03]
• Rhino Conservation Lessons & Surprises: [10:26]–[17:46]
• Economic Model & Private Conservation Crisis: [13:21]–[22:14]
• Export, Regulation, and Policy Ironies: [22:51]–[27:37]
• Rhino Horn Trade Debate: [28:00]–[36:42]
• Global Governance & CITES Critique: [43:10]–[46:16]
• Legal Update & Future Blueprint: [45:03]–[49:03]
• Final Banter & Wrap Up: [49:24]–[50:34]

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For listeners and conservationists alike, this roundtable offers a rare, candid look into the strained world of rhino conservation—where passion, pragmatism, and policy collide.

Transcript

[Robbie]

So if you have not listened to the first Rhino conservation roundtable with the cinematography team on site, you need to go back and listen to that one, because this is part number two. This is three and a half weeks later, three and a half weeks later, of them experiencing all the things associated with rhino conservation. The security, the values, mean the landowners, mean the trackers, mean the anti poaching units, you name it. And so what we do is we explore how their feelings, how their thoughts, how everything has changed. Maybe it hasn't changed, maybe their viewpoint has been exactly confirmed what they used to be. As a reminder, the people on this team, slots, media, Lewis and Jack, you've heard from them before, they've been on with me significantly. Newest member is Freddie, which is an important integral member because Freddy doesn't come from big game hunting background, doesn't come out from a hunting background at all, and experiencing Africa for the very first time. So his viewpoint is a very, very valid viewpoint and comes closest to somebody who just doesn't quite understand rhino conservation. So enjoy.

[Rodney Kroger]

So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around. Around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a

[Lewis]

burden to walk with.

[Rodney Kroger]

Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community? It's. It's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's. I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time.

[Lewis]

It's like snakes and ladders.

[Freddie]

You guys are climbing the ladder and

[Rodney Kroger]

then somebody does something stupid and you just slide that. That is such an amazing analogy. Snakes and ladders.

[Freddie]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

You know, ivory, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Lewis]

The expenses were going up. It goes a long way with families. We are families that do need it.

[Rodney Kroger]

Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What are you laughing because I said wiener?

[Lewis]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out.

[Rodney Kroger]

I'm sorry the first happened.

[Lewis]

What are we doing here today?

[Rodney Kroger]

You're telling the whole world.

[Freddie]

Foreign.

[Lewis]

Welcome to the Origins Foundation Roundup podcast with host Rodney Kroger.

[Rodney Kroger]

That's about right. That was funny. He felt so embarrassed, Poor dude.

[Lewis]

Are we recording now?

[Jack]

It didn't help that we all made a joke.

[Lewis]

Did you record my audio?

[Freddie]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

Your intro was amazing. Thank you. We should.

[Lewis]

Did you actually record that?

[Rodney Kroger]

It was Perfectly recorded.

[Lewis]

Oh, amazing.

[Rodney Kroger]

It was perfectly recorded. And Lewis is again the celebrity of the roundup that everybody has missed.

[Freddie]

He loves that as well.

[Rodney Kroger]

He does, he loves it.

[Lewis]

My ego gets a big old stroke, Freddy.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yep, yep, 100%. Well, we're not in South Africa anymore. We're all in Mozambique, Freddie. Your second African country.

[Freddie]

Yep. Ever. Yep.

[Rodney Kroger]

A little bit more rural than what you have been experiencing in the last two weeks.

[Lewis]

What did he say? He said he dies in Mozambique. That's his story arc.

[Jack]

That was his own prediction.

[Freddie]

My prediction is this is. Yeah, this is where it all ends.

[Lewis]

Pretty good. Ripe old age of 20.

[Freddie]

I'm not sure what day it'll be. I'm not sure if it'll be straight away or maybe like halfway through.

[Lewis]

Oh, it'll be tonight.

[Freddie]

But yeah, it could be tonight.

[Lewis]

Might cuddle a mamba. Cuddle a mamba.

[Rodney Kroger]

Let's do some predictions. How is Freddy going to die? Lewis?

[Lewis]

It's, it's got to be something pathetic like.

[Freddie]

Oh, great. Nice.

[Lewis]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

You know, he like, you still have. I said you're going to get your opportunity. Let Louis have his.

[Lewis]

I think he just like, you know, he stays up late editing something and then as he's walking back to his little tent there, he takes the wrong turn and ends up in the, in the wilderness and just like dies of panic like 200 meters from camp or something like that, you know.

[Rodney Kroger]

Okay, Jack, how does Freddy die?

[Jack]

I've thought about this a lot. I think he dies by tripping over, falling face down into a shallow puddle and drowning.

[Rodney Kroger]

Wow. Yeah. Jeez.

[Lewis]

Not even Africa related, just six inch puddle.

[Rodney Kroger]

I, I think I'll give Freddy a little bit more credit. I think Freddy, you know, is sitting around the fire. A scorpion comes into the fire. Everybody, you know, says, man, we should pick that scorpion up. And Freddie now feeling the African ness because he's been in Africa for two and a half weeks, he's like, fellas, I got this. And he reaches down to try and just squeeze that tail between his fingers like everyone should do. And he just misses it and gets stung on his thumb.

[Lewis]

And he dies from the poisonous scorpion.

[Rodney Kroger]

He dies from the venomous scorpion. Freddie, how do you die?

[Freddie]

Thanks, that's very kind, Robbie. That's giving me a little bit more cred than these two. I know how they're gonna die. I'm gonna slip into their tent. I, I think that's not what you promised last night. I, I reckon you're gonna slip in

[Lewis]

for a completely different reason.

[Freddie]

And then I'll do it after that.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah.

[Freddie]

I think it's like a crying. I think it'll be Yahtzee. I think it'll be that puff adder I saw on the first day. Makes its way down for. For revenge. And we have a wrestle in the

[Lewis]

tent all the way from Inkulu to Mozambique.

[Freddie]

It's been traveling all this time.

[Lewis]

And I'll get this bugger.

[Freddie]

Yeah, I think I'll be asleep.

[Jack]

But how would it cross the border?

[Lewis]

It doesn't have a passport.

[Freddie]

True. Would have had a really tough time.

[Rodney Kroger]

I will say. I will say it is. It is fair that we should outline exactly what we thought was going to happen. That you're hanging out of a chopper with the camera gear. We had dotted a lioness. The lioness woke up from her anesthesia and you were hovering above her. She reached up with one claw, gripped the matte box on the edge of the camera. You refused to let go of the camera and I think plunged to your death. I actually think that broke your neck on impact and we couldn't retrieve your bodies because the lions decided to eat you.

[Freddie]

I think the most implausible thing of all of this was Lewis saying that I'll be editing late one night here and then I'll die. I don't know what editing I'm going to be doing late at night, mate.

[Rodney Kroger]

I think I have. I think I have an idea. I think I have an idea.

[Lewis]

I've received a text message today.

[Rodney Kroger]

So, yeah, I think you are doing some editing for sure based on the experience.

[Lewis]

I'm joking. You're done.

[Robbie]

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[Rodney Kroger]

They want to help you.

[Robbie]

The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species.

[Rodney Kroger]

So what do you need to do?

[Robbie]

Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails. Could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup?

[Rodney Kroger]

We will select the best story every

[Robbie]

other month and send you a camera bundle.

[Rodney Kroger]

Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards

[Robbie]

as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us whatever you want.

[Rodney Kroger]

We are not hard to find.

[Robbie]

Good luck.

[Rodney Kroger]

All right, so we are now finished with our rhino documentary in Qatar 11 YouTube channel specifically. Arguably one of the best conservation success stories. I don't think I've clipped you through Google. It could probably be one of the best conservation success stories. Buy a hunter and then share it with your friends.

[Robbie]

That's where we're going to have all

[Rodney Kroger]

of our if not in one spot. He's been here since 19. You don't want to just listen to

[Robbie]

this in your vehicle.

[Rodney Kroger]

You want almost 30 years here. Everything he has implemented community conservation and tied to anti I need you to subscribe.

[Lewis]

His Business is 1990 foundation podcast channel on YouTube.

[Rodney Kroger]

Okay, thank you for pointing out my just randomly I'm going to pick probably one or two or three YouTube subscribers

[Robbie]

to the podcast channel and send you something.

[Rodney Kroger]

But this is not what the roundup is going to be about. The last time we were all together we were adding Kulu which was go

[Robbie]

ahead and subscribe podcast channel.

[Jack]

No, we're three weeks not only you're

[Robbie]

gonna watch some cool podcasts.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah, cool 21 days ago and we were on a rhino hunt in front of a bunch of rhino conservation work that we were going to go see at three different properties and obviously you three are, you know, you're sort of versed in the rhino conservation space but obviously got hammered with a lot of information over the last three weeks. In the last podcast, Louis, you know you had a very strong Opinion, which is great. Not that you don't have a strong opinion always but. And Freddie, you also, you were very, you know, forthcoming about what this was. Is this something that we should be doing if not those kinds of things? And so maybe I'll just open it to the floor to start with. What, what has surprised you maybe in the last 16 days around rhinos? Lewis?

[Lewis]

Why me? What surprise? I mean Rockwood was insane like that obviously Rockwood being a conservation breeding facility. When you said that they bring their rhinos into the like into a boma at night.

[Freddie]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

Like cattle or sheep.

[Lewis]

Yeah, yeah. I didn't think they would be that. I don't think the boma would obviously be that small and that they'd be that concentrated in those. That much numbers. That was weird.

[Rodney Kroger]

80 plus rhino.

[Lewis]

Yeah. And obviously, obviously Vickers really cares about the rhino. But yeah, that was just weird. Like walking in amongst rhino that so relaxed around humans is, is weird because obviously we spent you know a good part of Inkulu running around after a rhino that every time it sniffed us wanted to get to the other side of the concession. So yeah, yeah, it's completely different.

[Rodney Kroger]

And I don't think they were tame. You couldn't have, we couldn't have touched the rhino. The only rhinos that were being touched were the hand reared ones that were introduced back into the population. But they were, they weren't wild.

[Lewis]

Yeah but they weren't scared of us.

[Rodney Kroger]

No they weren't. They were inquisitive.

[Lewis]

Yeah, they weren't scared until you clicked at them.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah, just clicking. That's all we learned. So that surprised you was that amounts of rhino moving in and out of Obomo.

[Lewis]

Yeah, because I didn't, I didn't think that it was there was that much like intensive husbandry involved in rhino conservation because we were obviously went to Vion's place and then Kalahari oryx was exactly the same almost. Well pretty much the same as Vion's in the sense of, you know, they, they just have a concession and they have rhino on the concession and the concession is fenced and the rhino are just free to go wherever they want to go within the fence boundaries. And obviously yes there's is the same in Rockwood but there's the step of they've trained a certain number of their population to come in. Obviously they have those bulls that are free.

[Rodney Kroger]

Two thirds of the population and a third of the landscape. One third of the population and 2/3 of the population landscape.

[Lewis]

Yeah. So I mean actually another thing that did surprise me Was how few rhinos are collared on. And jacks, all of them.

[Freddie]

What?

[Rodney Kroger]

Vicus doesn't have any colored rhino either?

[Lewis]

No, but I wouldn't expect him to have colored rhino because he knows where they are. They come in at night, but then, you know, when we went to denes in the middle, well, they got 18. We, we, you know, we moved eight.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Lewis]

And collared 18 or 16.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Lewis]

Because they wanted data on the movements of the rhinos and they wanted to know where their rhinos were at every point of the day. So that was kind of what I was expecting from Vian's place. Yeah, yeah. But Vion said obviously he's only got three black rhino.

[Rodney Kroger]

The lack of coloring definitely surprised me, Jack.

[Jack]

I think I was surprised by how financially precarious private rider management is. So I was just under the impression that if these guys have built their rhino populations to these sizes, that they will have done it because the rhino are paying the way for them to do that. That was always the impression I had.

[Rodney Kroger]

You, you were under the impression that rhino. There must be some money otherwise in rhinos, enough money in rhinos for them to do what they were doing, to

[Jack]

at least be self sustaining, to at least have allowed them to build those populations to those levels. I didn't realize that all of those three big players had money from other places, other businesses, and that it was just essentially a passion project for them. Really like that. That was a shock to me because if those guys just suddenly take the financial view on this, then like there is. So there's. That's hundreds and hundreds of rhino that are just now without a home.

[Rodney Kroger]

Well, as most of them have said, they're too far gone at this point. Yeah, they're too far gone. And if they decided to pull out, they would pull out and just go like, that's it. With no more, like there's no point. The finances are not there for honors.

[Jack]

But that's, you know, when someone, as, when, when three guys as, as successful as those three are saying if something doesn't happen soon, then there's only so far that passion can take this.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah, I'm, you know, I'd push back on that again. I think they're too far gone. And if, you know, push comes to shove and like the status quo remains, will they get out of rhinos? I put money on the fact that they don't. Would they reduce their rhino herds? Would Vicus reduce his rhino herd? How?

[Jack]

That's. And again, they're in. That's the Other weird thing, they can't even really get out of it at this point, even if they want to, because who is having those rhino, like, who is taking them? And because they care, they might. They at the point where the seesaw tips and the finances are more important than their love of the animal. Not that I think that will happen, but in the hypothetical situation where it does, I still don't think that they would want to sell them to someone or give them to someone like Kruger, because they know it's essentially a death sentence.

[Freddie]

Right.

[Rodney Kroger]

100.

[Jack]

So I. I think they're in a re. They're in an absolutely. Just. It's such a difficult position that they're in.

[Lewis]

You can hear the rain now.

[Rodney Kroger]

It's proper. Yeah. Well, it's not like the rain hasn't been following us.

[Freddie]

Right.

[Rodney Kroger]

Jeez.

[Freddie]

Freddy.

[Jack]

Tends to happen to the Welsh.

[Rodney Kroger]

What. What surprised you? Obviously you came in this absolutely green.

[Freddie]

Yeah. I'd say starting it in Kulu and just all seeing a rhino and. And them reacting how I would expect rhino to react whilst you're sort of around them that, you know, any sort of get too close and they go. They run off. And similar to what Lewis is saying, going into Rockwood was just mind blowing. Just being so close to them and so many of them. And as we were saying, like, if one of them just wanted to go

[Rodney Kroger]

for it, we got totally nonchalant around.

[Freddie]

Right, we did, yeah. We got completely nonchalant around them. Yeah. There was. There were times towards the end where I was just sort of like when they were getting close and I wasn't. I felt myself getting too worried because I was like, all just have to do is clip my fingers and they will disappear. Like I just need a couple clips. Whereas in reality, one of them wanted

[Rodney Kroger]

10 steps from you, they would be on you in a second and a half, easily.

[Freddie]

Even the calf my size, you know.

[Lewis]

Well, I nearly got run over by that one that we darted. The little. The little one.

[Rodney Kroger]

Oh, yes.

[Lewis]

That one was high stepping.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah.

[Lewis]

The calf got a bit spicy and then you guys had to run around it, didn't you?

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah, I pulled Jack behind the tree, behind a bush.

[Jack]

You make it sound like you saved my life.

[Rodney Kroger]

I did save you.

[Jack]

You didn't even touch me.

[Rodney Kroger]

That thing was galloping straight at us and I took you and I went like this. Moved you behind the tree.

[Freddie]

J screamed a bit and then. Yeah.

[Jack]

Freddie wasn't even in the enclosure.

[Lewis]

Freddy wanted to stay outside.

[Freddie]

I saw it. I saw. I could hear it. I'm outside I was like, I thought that was a rhino. And no, it was Jack.

[Lewis]

I'll film from outside.

[Jack]

That is not true. That is slanderous.

[Rodney Kroger]

That is. And. And here's what I. I love. The fact is, I think there's going to be a. It's a very different Freddy on this podcast than there was 16 days ago. 17 days ago. He's opening up. Ladies, gentlemen.

[Jack]

He's had to toughen up as well.

[Rodney Kroger]

His second podcast, too.

[Lewis]

The. The other thing was. I don't think you got very nochalant, Robbie, because at one point, you. You were.

[Rodney Kroger]

I was very concerned.

[Lewis]

You. I was filming them walking towards me and you. Your videos. Like, oh, is he going to be okay?

[Rodney Kroger]

Absolutely.

[Lewis]

Is he going to be okay?

[Rodney Kroger]

Again, I was. I. Those. There was. So the reason I was so concerned, it wasn't just one rhino walking up on you.

[Lewis]

There was three or four.

[Rodney Kroger]

No, no, no, no, no. There was three or four, but there was three or four behind those three or four. And there was three or four behind those 3 and 4. So if those three or four decide to stop, everybody is pushing. Not everyone. 50 rhino are pushing forward.

[Freddie]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

And I was like, this is not going to end well. This can't end well.

[Lewis]

They weren't, like, pushing each other.

[Jack]

They did get a bit argy.

[Rodney Kroger]

You didn't hear all the art.

[Jack]

You.

[Rodney Kroger]

We heard all the vocalizations, all the Argy bargies, all of the squealing.

[Freddie]

That's too much.

[Rodney Kroger]

That was mewing.

[Freddie]

Too much clicking for one man to do.

[Lewis]

I clicked.

[Freddie]

Don't have enough.

[Lewis]

I clicked them all away. Don't you worry about it.

[Rodney Kroger]

I think the.

[Lewis]

Like, one of those dancers, you know.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah. What kind of dance? The flamenco.

[Lewis]

Yeah.

[Freddie]

Vickers needs to hire a couple of them.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah, Flamenco dancers.

[Lewis]

Little tap dancers.

[Rodney Kroger]

I think. I think the thing that struck the most for me is, you know, again, it's. It was almost like I knew. I'm very familiar with, like, the elephant situation in South Africa. You can't give an elephant away right now. Actually, I was quite surprised. I think Andy said that three elephants or four elephants just got moved from Maritava to another reserve or whatnot. So I was like, whoa, that's pretty huge. I've never heard that anywhere right now in South Africa. I didn't realize that rhinos were on that precipice too. I didn't realize how upside down the rhino market was in terms of the value of a rhino. I didn't. I. Obviously, I did know very much the security concerns, specifically the security concerns. Of people like, hey, I don't want to own a rhino because those people that are coming to get the rhino have no, no sense of human life. Like they'll kill me just to get that rhino horn. No problems. I think that's the reason why people, again, one of the biggest reasons why people don't have rhino. And again, the landscape is there's no value, there's no people, nobody wants them. Now what do you do with them? And that was just like horrifying. I was like, holy shit. We've created, we have pigeonholed rhino conservation to the point where it's like, well, everyone's backed up against the wall, there's no way out.

[Jack]

It's the craziest plot twist that the threat to rhino has actually shifted in my brain from poaching to the economic model that they're, that they're stuck in. And that is, and that is, I just think like such an under covered side of this. Everyone says every, everything with rhino is phrased from.

[Rodney Kroger]

We should, that should definitely be in the documentary.

[Lewis]

Poaching is, but poaching is, is still like probably the massive threat because people don't want to talk because of poaching.

[Rodney Kroger]

But poaching is coming down. It's not the 1200, it's 300, 400, which is unacceptable.

[Lewis]

Yeah, but it's also creating, it's also creating a, an environment of fear for rhino, rhino owners. And also there's no, there's no option. Like you said, Jack, you can't give those rhino to Krueger because they're going to get killed in Krueger.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah, but what you just said that, that landscape of fear, that's what Jack just said. The landscape of fear is now hampering rhino conservation more than poaching.

[Jack]

So, and I actually think so, which

[Rodney Kroger]

is crazy to think that's actually, I've never actually thought about it, but I'd

[Jack]

say that the, the poaching, the poaching obviously is, is still like the contributing factor. But the fact that, the fact that in reality what we know of rhino conservation is that the private side of it is what's really the successful side of it.

[Rodney Kroger]

Currently. Right.

[Jack]

Africa in, currently, right now. And so that, and like they don't suffer like if nothing changes going forward, poaching stays at exactly the same level. The thing that will kill rhino is the economic side.

[Rodney Kroger]

I wouldn't say, I would say the thing that would stop rhino populations growing.

[Jack]

Yeah, but all we have to do is have, is not kill rhino but like have A decline in their numbers. Because let's say, for example, one of the three guys decides, right, I'm out of this. Or they have some kind of financial instability and they physically can't afford to go on and the rhino won't pay for themselves. They have no other choice. No one else wants them. They have to give them to Kruger. And then poaching comes into the fore on those. But the, but if nothing changes going forward over the next decade, the economic side of things is caused, granted, caused by the fear from poaching is what's actually going to cause this, I would

[Rodney Kroger]

say economic and regulatory environment.

[Freddie]

Right.

[Rodney Kroger]

Like there are regulatory things right now that are stopping rhino. Like for instance, Vickers could sell rhinos, white rhinos into Namibia.

[Jack]

Right.

[Rodney Kroger]

But the white, the, the private owners in Namibia are not going to buy those rhinos because of what the South African government is putting on those private landowners or even the government of Namibia. The South African government is saying, you are not allowed to, you have to promise you're not allowed to trade in these animals at all. You're not allowed to. Because the reason they say that is because rhinos in Namibia, Namibian law says that we will, we are able to export live rhino. So everyone that's gotten rhino in Texas, the live rhinos come from Namibia. And so the South African government's going, no, no, no, no, this is, we can't have that. Number two, you have to give us six month monitoring reports on these rhino. And it's like, well, no, these are our rhino.

[Lewis]

We just paid for the opportunity.

[Jack]

Yeah, but why, like, why would the South African government, what reasoning do they have to say you can't export live rhino?

[Lewis]

What?

[Jack]

They have to have a reason.

[Lewis]

But also you can kill rhino in South Africa, they get a quota to hunt rhino in South Africa, white rhino. So what is, what's the difference between killing a white rhino and sending one to Namibia? Yeah, this is the same thing. So you could just say like, right, well then the quota is ha. If, you know, if you've got a quota to, to sell a rhino for a trophy hunting and then you could, or you can export it live to Namibia.

[Jack]

But, and the, the ultimate irony of that is that they won't allow the live export, but they will allow you to give them to Kruger if you want, which as we've said is essentially a death set.

[Rodney Kroger]

Well, and the other thing that Vickers and Vion pointed out, that's a little hypocritical and a. Granted Africa Parks, who owns John Hume's Rhinos 2000 rhinos right now. They're able to send rhinos wherever they want.

[Lewis]

Why aren't they sending some to Angola?

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah, they're sending rhino wherever.

[Jack]

So how come they can.

[Rodney Kroger]

Because they're probably checking the box.

[Jack]

They're checking the box.

[Rodney Kroger]

They're probably saying, yes, we're not going to. These rhino will never be traded. Yes, these rhinos will. We'll give you six month monitoring reports. They're checking the boxes.

[Lewis]

So, yeah, so I mean that would, that would work if you were like, hey, like you know, say someone like ngo.

[Rodney Kroger]

If you're an ngo, they are.

[Lewis]

But even someone like Punyami, you know, if you said does it, does it, does that rule apply to the offspring of the rhino or just the rhino that you're exporting? I am not, I'm not sure because obviously that's, that's, that's a good point. It's because if you said, if you said right, you know, it's, it's this specific rhino. You can never hunt or trade in this specific rhino. Then you know, places could go, go. Yeah, no worries. Well, that's your breeding population and then all of the offspring in 20 years time are fair game. But then you know, also who's gonna know?

[Jack]

That's the other question. What happens?

[Lewis]

Yeah, what's every government gonna do if

[Jack]

you stop after two years and they go, yeah, hey, hey, yeah, bring them back. Be like, no, come and get them.

[Lewis]

Come across the border and slap you on the bottom.

[Rodney Kroger]

So what you guys are suggesting is one year worth of monitoring.

[Lewis]

Yeah, yeah, just it, there you go. And then. Oh, oh, sorry, I forgot about that. What a SA park's gonna do. What's the left we're gonna do find you just buy a shitload of rhino in one go.

[Rodney Kroger]

Well, let me go back. Future export of rhino because of it,

[Jack]

which doesn't exist anyway. Really?

[Rodney Kroger]

Well again, you technically can export rhino. You just have to fulfill all these.

[Lewis]

I mean, Jack were talking when we were in Kalari Oryx, we'd be very bad landowners.

[Jack]

I hate this regulatory stuff. I'd be like, I'd just be like, oh, like I'm not going to swear on.

[Rodney Kroger]

Can I swear Lewis has already dropped

[Jack]

a number of off like, I'm doing what I want.

[Rodney Kroger]

Freddy, what do you think?

[Lewis]

I know my Jeff.

[Jack]

Thanks, Freddy. That was deeply compelling.

[Freddie]

Yeah, I don't, I don't really know. I don't know as much deep about the situation as, as you guys.

[Lewis]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

But these guys have learned just as much as you over the last Three weeks.

[Lewis]

What do you think about the. The es. About South African government saying that you need to give? You know, if. If someone in Namibia buys it and then they have to give, they have to report back to South Africa. It's literally like you buying a box of cereal from the super.

[Rodney Kroger]

No, no, don't qualify it.

[Lewis]

And telling. Qualifying and telling everyone and telling the supermarket when you ate. Every time you eat your bowl.

[Freddie]

Yeah. It seems like they're just putting a few hurdles in the way just to make people just go off. I can't be bothered to do that. But I don't see how they're going to upheld that or to uphold that at all. Maybe they can send you a big old massive fine. And I'm not sure, I'm not sure how. How strict and how much they would follow up on that sort of stuff.

[Lewis]

Yeah, well, I mean, people in. Don't know people in Namibia have to come into South Africa really, don't they? There's a very. They're very closely linked.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah.

[Freddie]

Yeah.

[Lewis]

Pretty like their kids go to school in South Africa and, you know, all

[Rodney Kroger]

that sort of stuff. Freddy, if based on all the information that you garnered over the last three weeks, would you be in favor of legalizing the horn trademark?

[Freddie]

Well, it seemed that every Vickers, Vion and Jax, they all said that's what they, you know, is what they needed in order to really just be able to keep going because it gives them something and they got all this horn. I don't exactly know what it would do to the black market and with the poachers, but it would.

[Rodney Kroger]

So it's interesting. I'll stop you there because that's the, that's the, the crux of the argument. Right? The crux of the argument is especially with like an elephant stockpile, they. Everyone then whenever somebody starts talking about the legalizing of rhino horn, they immediately go to the stockpiles of elephant ivory, which is apples and origins, in my mind, the stockpiles of elephant ivory goes out. There's no real, like DNA sourcing. We don't know where this has come from, whatnot. And you're not. It's. It's a totally different scenario than cutting off the horn.

[Jack]

To me.

[Rodney Kroger]

They say that you will see more illegal rhino horn being pushed into the legal framework than before. Obviously, the argument here is there'll be more money for people to invest in their rhino, so there should be not as much poaching. There's also now the data that we saw. I'm not too sure about the Hume data in 2017, 2018, where there was a 25% decrease in rhino poaching. My gut says that drop in 25% was because people were struggling to find rhino, because it had four years of thousand plus rhino poachings. But before 20 2007, when the moratorium on the legal horn trade within South Africa was stopped, prior to 2007, you can go all the way back to 1980, there were nine to 13 rhino killed a year. And the reason that was, as Vic has pointed out, is that yes, people were legally me, I would sell you legally a horn. And that horn then slipped illegally. You sold it illegally out into Asia. Is that a bad thing?

[Jack]

No.

[Rodney Kroger]

If at the end of the day, runners, the poaching of runners was non existent.

[Jack]

I think people need to get down off their high horse when it comes to this rhino trade because a lot of people standing on moral high ground saying if you're supplying the illegal side of it, then that's wrong and we need to prevent that. But why have they got such a strong stance? Because ever. Because they want more rhino and they want fewer rhino to be poached. Well then does it matter? Make it is within reason as easy for those people to get their hands on rhino horn as possible so they don't go out and kill rhinos. I just cut, I just cannot understand the moral ground that they occupy when that seemingly is their objective. But what their actions are doing is completely counterintuitive to what they, what they're saying.

[Lewis]

So I'll play devil's advocate.

[Rodney Kroger]

Sure.

[Lewis]

Before, in those, in those figures that you're talking about. Right. So there's, you know, into, into South African trade and then people going out. Has it been too long now since that time where now people, now there's organized crime involved. So if you legalize rhino horn trade, there's, there's obviously a massive, you know, a massive value to the horn. Right. I think, I think it was Vickers that said he'd need 12 and a half thousand dollars a kilo.

[Rodney Kroger]

He himself.

[Lewis]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

He's figures between 25 to 60. 60,000 on the black market, right?

[Lewis]

Yeah, but that's at the end of the chain.

[Rodney Kroger]

Correct.

[Lewis]

So these guys that are poaching rhino, what is the cost of acquisition for a rhino horn for them? Realistically, if they're paying three guys, what, a thousand US each to go and kill a rhino, that's three grand. Are they then going to pay someone like Vickers the 12, that, that's three grand to get a whole horn? So that's what, maybe four, five, six kilos of horn? If they get a big rhino, are they then going to pay Vickers as a crime syndicate, then going to pay Vickers 12 and a half grand per kilo to then smuggle it out of the country? Or is their system now so cemented in place that they go, oh, cool, we can, we can, we've still got really cheap rhino horn. Boom, boom, boom, you know, so, yeah,

[Rodney Kroger]

a vickers might need 12 and a half thousand. But say, you know, if you got in the rhino game, you may not need 12 and a half thousand. You may want to sell your rhino home for 1,200, 3,000.

[Lewis]

Yeah, I think, I think the price would collapse very quickly because you'd have like these stockpiles and it just, it would not stay that high because it's like, it's, you know, it's like suddenly every, every central bank selling gold at the same time, the price is going to crash.

[Jack]

Well, inevitably, but then also, like, it's, that is a good point about, like, why wouldn't they go and get it cheaper? And there definitely would still be an element of that, surely. But it's about undermining their demand, like, if people can find it, if people can find it elsewhere. Yeah, and it's not cheaper for their consumer, is it? They'll charge them full whack, like.

[Lewis]

Yeah, but it's, yeah, but it's profit. So it's. You're banking on, you're banking on them going, oh, well, now I don't need to, I don't need to faff around now with getting guys over, you know, getting guys to sneak onto a property like Kalahari Oryx and, you know, avoid getting caught then, then smuggle the rhino within. You know, they go, okay, well, maybe that takes them five, six, five, six attempts and a few guys go to prison. And maybe it costs more than you actually think. And so, you know, if you, if you do legalize rhino horn, they might go, actually, it's bloody easy. I'm selling this stuff to some bloke in sudan anyway for 20 grand a kilo. And he's going, and he's taking it into whatever. So maybe he goes, oh, yeah, do you know what? I'll give you ten grand and I'll make ten grand. Yeah, and I'll just do that a lot instead of, instead of messing around with this, you know, and then you cut out the organized crime. But then, then they just move to stealing cars and doing whatever and then, but then the rhino get left to them because it's so easy to acquire. So yeah, and I guess. But it's like you said before, isn't it? It's the unknown. It's. No one knows what would happen.

[Rodney Kroger]

I think what we'll do, we need.

[Lewis]

Everyone's assuming it can't be reversed.

[Rodney Kroger]

Correct. Everyone's assuming it can't be reversed and nobody's tried. And you heard them all say again, like, you know, you speak to somebody in the East. I think I read this somewhere where someone was like, well, we used to trade and now you're telling us don't trade. And you're saying we are okay to have run a horn now it's not okay to have our ANA horn.

[Freddie]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

And that scenario will occur like, okay, legalize the trade. Hey, it's. It's on again. You're good to go again. And then in three years time when it doesn't work, you're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's not, it's not on again.

[Jack]

Yeah, but I just think that I just. That's, that's so much better than the alternative. Like that sounds chaotic, you know, but the alternative of the current status quo just doesn't work.

[Rodney Kroger]

And I think, you know, it would be an absolute. It would be things that you would write books about.

[Lewis]

Yeah, well, you would need. It's not working. You'd need a massive overhaul for it to work with the current status quo. You would just need to have a massive overhaul of the corruption of places like Kruger and the other national parks around that you just get.

[Rodney Kroger]

Would you?

[Lewis]

Well, yeah, if you had, if you had someone that came in, it's like,

[Rodney Kroger]

it's like if you have these huge stockpiles from private owners now going into

[Lewis]

the state of the status quo. If the status quo stayed the same.

[Rodney Kroger]

Right, right.

[Lewis]

The only way you'd, the only way you could get anywhere would be by massively overhauling the, the, the corruption in the system. Because what like Vickers was saying and like the bloody head of. Head of something in Kruger got caught with his bloody elbow elbows deep in rhino guts.

[Rodney Kroger]

Not figuratively, but yes.

[Lewis]

Yeah, but like, yeah, he got caught with three rhino horn in his car and bloody.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah, he was indicted. The new chief ranger after years to got indicted.

[Lewis]

Yeah. German is like. But it's all a hunter's fault.

[Rodney Kroger]

You know, we cut you off. Sorry, I know that you are wanting to speak.

[Freddie]

Yeah, I think it's, it's worth. You just got to give it, you got to give it a go. What else are you going to do as this is like you're not going to, you're not going to get into the weeds of corruption and sort it out there. There's, it's just too entangled. It's got to be. It would just be an absolute nightmare to try and sort it out that way. And the three of them said it's, it's what they need. And I think that, you know, it'd be interesting to see how the poachers would react to it, see what they do.

[Rodney Kroger]

And you know, one of the things you heard them say constantly and it's interesting, you get into these big rhino discussions. Right. And trade discussions and like Von said, like if you're on a rounder table, the first thing that Von wanted to know is who at this table owns rhino and who on. At this table has put money to protect the habitat that rhino need.

[Jack]

And I admire those guys.

[Lewis]

That's the second, that's the second half of the conversation, isn't it?

[Jack]

Yeah, I admire them because they've got to stand in these arenas and be judged.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah.

[Jack]

Have their opinion not belittled but downplayed when they are the guys doing it. I mean, a lot of the people commenting, I'm not talking about social media, I'm talking about from a government, a regulatory, A cites perspective. Don't own Rhino. And they're saying, no, we know what you want. You don't know what they want. They're telling you and you're not listening. And it's quite irritating to understand that from the. Because when you see the amount of effort and money and passion these guys put in for them to have to stand there and take that is. Is.

[Rodney Kroger]

Well, they'll be told or we know what you want, which is you just want to get rich.

[Jack]

Yeah. And if you spend half an hour in their company.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah.

[Jack]

In that environment.

[Rodney Kroger]

Well, you see all the expenses Right.

[Robbie]

On the balance sheet.

[Rodney Kroger]

Let's just list the expenses on the balance sheet before you get a revenue.

[Freddie]

Yes. Just look at the food that went into one boma at Rockwood. Watching that process every day. Every day. And then Vickers says, oh, that's for one boma. And it's like, oh, right. Wow.

[Jack]

It's. It's absolutely mind bending.

[Lewis]

How many bales of hay was it? It was like six bales of hay.

[Rodney Kroger]

No, two bales. Oh, well, I don't even know what a bale, but it was two. One big stack went in first, then half a stack of. So was it was hay half a stack of barley, half a stack of rye or whatever. Oats.

[Lewis]

Yeah. Well, the hay is going to be the cheapest. And I saw, I saw two bales, two big bales going in. So that's eight bales a day of hay, and that's the cheapest part.

[Jack]

And it's, it's. It's almost laughable that people think they're doing this to get rich when the only reason they're in. It's like this crazy juxtaposition that these are very good businessmen who have made money in other areas. What makes you think all three of them would make the same mistake? To have rhinos for decades on the off chance who someone with zero stake in rhinos is going to legalize the trade of horn and allow them to make money? Like that's a terrible business gamble.

[Rodney Kroger]

But even Jacques, the biggest business of businessman of them all, if the legalization of the horn trade happens, I think he will section off a section of his ranch and have 60 rhino in there or whatever it is, and those will be dehorned and he'll use that. But the vast majority of his r. I don't think he'd dehorn.

[Jack]

No. Because he loves. He clearly loves seeing a rhino as a whole, which was again, going back to Deneen, like that is what she was concerned about. She loves seeing a rhino in its proper state. And I think these guys do too well.

[Rodney Kroger]

And Jacques also couched it from a lion perspective. He had lions in his system. Those lions would eat rhino calves.

[Lewis]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

If the mama didn't have a big horn to.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

Protect that.

[Lewis]

But also like Jacques was saying about, he has. Obviously he has natural mortality of rhinos and, and he's got horn from those. Yeah. From. From that mortality. So if you do get 5,000. 5,000 US a kilo, you know, and you've. And you've got two or three rhinos a year die naturally with, with big horns because he's had them for.

[Rodney Kroger]

And you would think that those big horns would be.

[Lewis]

It does.

[Rodney Kroger]

Very valuable instead of being cut up.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Lewis]

Does he even need to.

[Freddie]

Yeah.

[Lewis]

Section off. I mean, it probably would because why wouldn't you?

[Rodney Kroger]

You know, And I can guarantee you, if the legalization of the horn trade occurs all and again, I'd put money on it. All of the ecotourism places that have rhino right now, the big boys, APNR Boys, Sabi Sands, Londolozi, any of these places, Tualu, Mabula, all of these big places that have rhino, they would sell their rhino horn from dead rhino that have died naturally or have died from bulls fighting each other and a bull has died. If the legalization of the horn trade was available, I guarantee you that dead rhino, that horn would be taken off that dead rhino and they would sell it to make money to help their properties.

[Lewis]

Well, you'd probably just get, you'd probably get a wholesaler, wouldn't you? Like we have in the uk, we have game dealers.

[Rodney Kroger]

Yeah.

[Lewis]

So like, you know, the Scottish estates will, will do trophy hunting or whatever. That's your, that's your trophy hunting of stags. But then, you know, it wouldn't be natural mortality, but it would be culling. But they don't sell it. They don't go out and try and find the buyer for the end buyer. They just have a guy game dealer who comes around a regulatory exchange. Lads, how many, how many carcasses this, how many carcasses this week? Oh, here's 20 in the chiller for you. Job done.

[Freddie]

Yeah.

[Lewis]

So they don't even need to get their hands dirty.

[Rodney Kroger]

No.

[Lewis]

Someone just comes along, goes, hey chaps, how many, how many rhino horn have you got today? Oh, we've got one died this month. Come and collect it.

[Robbie]

100.

[Rodney Kroger]

There's just like diamonds, right? Diamonds. That became a regulatory trade exchange. Others decided to do their own thing. That's what you're going to see. You're going to see Vickers do his own thing. Probably because he has his system the way that he's got it. I think you're going to see there's a guy called Sam, I don't know Sam's last name. I apologize. Sam, if you're listening to this with rhinomics, who's gonna, who's trying to set up that exact like diamond trade exchange mechanism where he's got the buyers, he's got the sellers, he is the trade like you, he's got the distributors, he's got the wholesalers, he goes and picks them up, he has, he holds them all those kinds of things.

[Lewis]

So that's what you'll need because you'll need, you'll need all. It's like, it's like, you know, Doug, exporting trophies. You're gonna need all the paperwork that goes with the trophies and stuff like that. You're gonna need all the paperwork that goes with, you know, oh, this, this horn is micro has come from this piece or whatever.

[Jack]

And you know, I'm. That's a question I'd be quite interested to know. And it's a difficult one to get the answer to. But how many of the people who are going to be making this decision in 2027.

[Rodney Kroger]

2028.

[Jack]

2028 cites.

[Lewis]

Yeah.

[Jack]

How many of them have spent time on the ground with these operations?

[Rodney Kroger]

99 of them. Never.

[Jack]

See, I think that disqual, personally, I think that disqualifies them.

[Rodney Kroger]

And that's the pro. Like again, if I had something to say about cities, you know, to me, the fact that countries that do not own the resource have just as great a say as those that have the resource.

[Jack]

Yeah, it's flawed.

[Rodney Kroger]

Is a flawed system.

[Freddie]

Right.

[Lewis]

Well, they should, yeah, they should have a half the vote or something. You know, it's like, yeah, they should have a say, but at the same time, you know. Yeah, if you've got rhino in your country, you get two votes. If you don't, you get one.

[Jack]

Yeah, that's. I, yeah. I mean the fact that because we, and we've talked about it in the past, it's, it's neocolonialism that, that someone in Germany can veto rhino horn trade from there.

[Lewis]

But, but also why, but also why does, why do those, why do countries like South Africa, Namibia, Malawi, Angola, Botswana, Tanzania, Mozambique, why do they have to follow cites?

[Rodney Kroger]

It's, it's, that's a much broader conversation. A lot of people have said, is there a way to create a new cites? And there really isn't. There's just because everyone is, you know, signed on to this treaty. It's a convention essentially. So governments have signed on to this convention. And for you to create a new convention. Yeah, again, it would be a game changer. Right? People would just get fed up like, okay, guys, we're just, we are in the sustainable use and it's mainly the sustainable use countries that would just say, okay, we're gonna start our own thing.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

And we're gonna, we're gonna band together and if you want to trade with us, we'll, we'll trade with you.

[Jack]

Yeah, I mean surely that, that would be the most modern, forward looking way of doing this because it decides what it does.

[Rodney Kroger]

But you heard Vickers say the architects of CITES were clever. They recognize that there is pressures on wild populations and trade is going to put even more pressure on those wild populations. That's why they have the exemption within cites. That is for conservation, breeding facilities and two, what's the word? Two systems tied to those exemptions. A commercial system and a non commercial system. So your commercial system is your pet trade. Right. You can go to your local store in the UK and in the United States and buy a ball python or African grey parrot. That is a exemption under Cites with a C, not a W for wild, a C for conservation or captive breeding. That takes pressure off of the wild population because now there is a supply and demand in this captive breeding setting. South Africa's used it, according to Vickers, 20, 30 million times. It happens in the spider world, the snake world, the bird world, the plant world.

[Jack]

So if they already have the structure in place, that's similar.

[Rodney Kroger]

That's Vicus's fighting in courts.

[Lewis]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

That's what he got the Northern Cape court to say. You're right. Yeah, you are. You fit the definition. Yeah, you fit the exemption. You are a conservation breeding facility by stature. Like, that's how he was. It's not like he decided one year ago, like, oh, I want to change because of this loophole. Yeah, he's been it from the beginning. He's like, I fit this just because it's a rhino horn, that's why I'm not allowed to do this. No, by law, I fit it. And the Northern Cape was like, you're right. And he won. Well, then the government filed a, a permission to dismiss and the Northern Cape court said no. So now the permission has gone to a. Permission to. Sorry, I, I'm not a legal person, but a permission to. For leave to then go to the higher court in Bloemfontein. And I think that they will be denying that permission to leave from the Northern Cape. And then when that, once that permission to leave is denied, then they will obviously appeal to the higher court in just straight appeal. But what Vickers said is that he's going to get an 18 3. He's also applied for an 183 at the same time. And so when these people put these permissions in, permission to leave, the appeals, whatnot, it stops you. You've actually won the case. Right. So you're about to go do your business, then the appeals prostitute comes in. It's like, nope, you can't do your business anymore because we're appealing it. And so this permission to leave has also stopped this. Well, he said, okay, if this permission to leave is denied, I'm submitting an 18 3. And that 183 says, regardless of permission to leave, regardless of the appeals process, I'm allowed to conduct my business. Yeah. Which is obviously not going to happen right away. It's not going to be selling rhino horn tomorrow. But he will have to work for the next year to put all these things, mechanisms in place to do it. But he'll also be allowed to export live rhino.

[Jack]

So is this rather. So even if is there then if they can set this precedent with his. With his place, is there then a blueprint for. Hey, you can 100. You just have to be able to do this, this, this, this, and change your. And then legally, you read any of these.

[Rodney Kroger]

Any of these nice big ecotourism operations.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

That are selling conservation experiences for dehorning.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

That all they would have to do is say, okay, we will just turn ourselves into a conservation breeding facility.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

Meet the rules for that exemption.

[Jack]

Yeah.

[Rodney Kroger]

Continue to do our ecotourism stuff. Continue to do our conservation experience stuff. And now we can sell the rhino horn that we're cutting with the conservation experiences and make more money for the place.

[Jack]

Perfect. Feckers is a clever bloke and he.

[Rodney Kroger]

So, yeah, we'll see. This next year will be huge for rhinos the next two years. Two. Two cities in 2028. In Panama. You have to give us some. Some. Some hints on where to stay in Panama since you're. Wow, you've been there.

[Lewis]

Freddie went on a date in Panama for like a whole day.

[Rodney Kroger]

Freddie, where do we stay in Panama? Is there an Airbnb?

[Jack]

He's frozen.

[Rodney Kroger]

Did you frequent of Airbnb?

[Freddie]

I don't remember that. Okay. It was the Hilton, I think. Lovely Hilton.

[Rodney Kroger]

Lovely Hilton.

[Lewis]

We stayed in the Hampton. Oh, Hampton by Hilton.

[Rodney Kroger]

Oh, Hampton Inn.

[Freddie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lewis]

And then we stayed in the Garden Inn as well.

[Freddie]

Okay.

[Rodney Kroger]

Oh, you had to switch hotels?

[Lewis]

No, just one on the way out and one on the way back.

[Rodney Kroger]

Okay.

[Freddie]

There's a nice rooftop bar in Panama if you want to.

[Rodney Kroger]

In the Hilton?

[Freddie]

No, somewhere else in the old town.

[Jack]

Oh, Freddy.

[Freddie]

Can't.

[Rodney Kroger]

How'd you go there?

[Lewis]

Yeah. Where did you go there?

[Freddie]

I couldn't sleep, so I just went out for a.

[Jack]

What, you just happened to find yourself on a rooftop?

[Freddie]

I got recommended it by someone from local. I like it.

[Lewis]

He couldn't sleep alone.

[Rodney Kroger]

I like it. I like it. Well, boys, well, thank you for being a part of the rhino documentary. Obviously the. This is, you know, it's big stuff that we're doing here, so.

[Lewis]

Probably the biggest rhino documentary that's ever been filmed.

[Jack]

Yeah, probably the best one as well.

[Rodney Kroger]

Agreed. Freddie, you have the last word.

[Freddie]

Thank you, Rodney.

[Rodney Kroger]

Touche. Touche. Thank you, boys. Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.