Our Voice 7: New Zealand

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Episode Summary
Episode: Our Voice 7: New Zealand
Release Date: April 8, 2025
Host/Author: Blood Origins Inc.

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Introduction to the Episode

In the seventh installment of the "Our Voice" series, Blood Origins invites Sam Gibson, also known as "Sam the Trapman," to discuss his pioneering work in New Zealand's conservation and hunting landscape. Hosted by Robbie, the episode delves deep into the intricate balance between hunting practices and ecosystem preservation, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of how traditional hunting methods can contribute to modern conservation efforts.

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Sam Gibson's Journey and Background (00:59 - 03:19)

Robbie introduces Sam Gibson as an avid hunter and trapper from New Zealand with a rich history in the field. Sam shares his dissatisfaction with the Department of Conservation's practices, which led him to establish the Eastern FIO Link project in 2020. This initiative is a hunter-led conservation effort focused on protecting native species like the kiwi and the Fio (a native blue duck). Robbie remarks on Sam's infectious enthusiasm and dedication, stating, “Sam Gibson is an incredible individual, super motivated, just got a huge smile on his face all the time and does extremely amazing work in New Zealand” (01:15).

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The Eastern FIO Link Project (03:19 - 06:06)

Sam elaborates on the Eastern FIO Link, emphasizing its mission to safeguard native birds through targeted trapping of invasive species. He explains, “Eastern FIO Link is essentially a hunter-led conservation project that looks to protect native birds, specifically kiwi and Fio” (02:16). The project operates across 30,000 hectares (approximately 69,000 acres) of rugged, mountainous terrain, utilizing over a thousand traps to control the population of stoats and other invasive predators that threaten native wildlife.

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Hunting and Conservation in New Zealand (06:06 - 15:07)

Robbie and Sam discuss the cultural context of hunting in New Zealand, highlighting the differences between managing invasive species and preserving native wildlife. Sam explains, “In our country, deer are introduced, trout are introduced, pigs are introduced… but prior to the introduction of these species that came with colonization, we were still hunters” (16:10). They explore how managing introduced species like deer helps restore ecological balance, enabling native species to thrive.

Sam emphasizes that hunting in their context is not merely about killing animals but about maintaining ecosystem health. “When you have lots of deer in an ecosystem, you can't do that [harvest fruits, vegetables, and meat],” he notes (21:03). This philosophy underscores the project's dual focus on sustainable hunting and conservation.

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Trapping Methods and Operations (15:08 - 29:12)

The conversation shifts to the practical aspects of trapping invasive species. Sam details the types of traps used by Eastern FIO Link:

1. Spring-Powered L-Shaped Traps: Designed to humanely and quickly euthanize animals upon triggering. These traps ensure that once an animal is caught, it is irreversibly unconscious within 30 seconds, adhering to New Zealand’s humane trapping regulations.

2. Gas-Powered Reseeding Traps: These are efficient for remote areas, capable of killing up to 24 stoats before needing to be reset. This is crucial for their operations in steep, inaccessible regions where frequent visits are challenging.

Sam states, “When we're killing animals, all of our traps have to be humane… irreversibly unconscious within 30 seconds” (27:36). Currently, Eastern FIO Link manages over 1,100 traps across 30,000 hectares, demonstrating the project's extensive reach and impact.

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Ecosystem Literacy and Community Involvement (29:12 - 42:56)

A significant portion of the discussion centers on "ecosystem literacy," a term Sam uses to describe the understanding and management of ecological systems through informed hunting practices. Sam explains that their approach not only controls invasive species but also educates volunteers and hunters about sustainable ecosystem management. This education fosters a deeper connection and responsibility towards conservation.

Robbie inquires about the diversity of volunteers, leading Sam to reveal an unexpected influx of vegetarians and vegans joining their conservation efforts. “It seems that we have an opening for ecosystem literacy… all walks of life turn up for that” (42:56). This highlights the project's inclusive approach, bridging gaps between different societal segments through shared conservation goals.

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Challenges and Public Perception (38:55 - 42:56)

Sam acknowledges the pushback from certain segments, specifically hunters from the South Island who may view their practices as trophy hunting. He notes, “Some people are, like, we’re so happy to shoot a velvet stag because they're fat and they're delicious. A lot of people are, ‘Oh, that’s a trophy. You can't shoot those’” (39:05). Despite these challenges, Sam emphasizes the necessity of their work in maintaining ecological balance, stressing that overpopulation of species like deer is detrimental to forest health and native biodiversity.

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Sam Gibson's Literary Contribution (42:56 - 47:59)

Towards the end of the episode, Sam discusses his foray into authorship with his book, "Cracking Yarns and Tall Tales from the Bush." Robbie congratulates Sam on his nomination for the New Zealand Book Awards, highlighting the book’s success and cultural impact. Sam shares that the book was written over the course of a year, balancing his trapping responsibilities with writing, and expresses gratitude for how it has transformed his family's circumstances.

Robbie praises the book, noting its authentic portrayal of New Zealand hunting and trapping, and even mentions a specific anecdote involving a real Blood Origins shoot depicted in the book (43:55 - 46:55). Sam provides purchasing details, making it accessible worldwide through platforms like Amazon and the Australian publisher's store.

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Conclusion and Future Plans (47:59 - End)

As the episode wraps up, Sam outlines the future trajectory of the Eastern FIO Link project. With over a million dollars in funding, the next steps include hiring a coordinator to manage the expanding volunteer base and potentially launching the Western FIO Link. He expresses optimism about growing the project and reinforcing the hunter-led conservation model in New Zealand.

Robbie and Sam exchange light-hearted banter about future hunting trips, underscoring the camaraderie and shared passion for conservation and sustainable hunting practices. Robbie concludes by encouraging listeners to support and share the mission of Blood Origins, reinforcing the podcast’s commitment to conveying the truth about hunting and its role in modern conservation.

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Notable Quotes

• Robbie: “Sam Gibson is an incredible individual, super motivated, just got a huge smile on his face all the time and does extremely amazing work in New Zealand” (01:15).

• Sam Gibson: “Eastern FIO Link is essentially a hunter-led conservation project that looks to protect native birds, specifically kiwi and Fio” (02:16).

• Sam Gibson: “When you have lots of deer in an ecosystem, you can't do that” (21:03).

• Sam Gibson: “When we're killing animals, all of our traps have to be humane… irreversibly unconscious within 30 seconds” (27:36).

• Sam Gibson: “It seems that we have an opening for ecosystem literacy… all walks of life turn up for that” (42:56).

• Sam Gibson: “It’s as close ethically to vegan as we can get” (41:37).

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Blood Origins provides an insightful exploration into the symbiotic relationship between hunting and conservation in New Zealand. Through Sam Gibson's experiences and the Eastern FIO Link project, listeners gain a nuanced perspective on managing invasive species, preserving native wildlife, and fostering ecosystem literacy. The discussion underscores the importance of traditional hunting practices in modern conservation efforts, advocating for a balanced approach that benefits both human communities and the natural environment.

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For More Information:

• Sam Gibson's Book: Cracking Yarns and Tall Tales from the Bush available on Amazon and the Australian publisher's store for $10 shipping worldwide.

• Follow Sam Gibson: Search for "Sam the Trapman" on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube for updates on his conservation adventures.

• Visit Blood Origins: bloodorigins.com to learn more about their conservation initiatives and support their mission.

Transcript

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[Robbie]

Hamiora Gibson, or Sam the Trap man is what you can find him on Instagram is a guy that just loves the bush. He's grown up trapping, he's grown up hunting. He worked for the Department of Conservation in New Zealand for many many many years and then just got utterly disgusted with the way that they were doing things and so left. And then he in 2020 started this project called Eastern Fiolink and the Eastern FIO link is essentially a hunter led conservation project that looks to protect native birds, specifically kiwi and Fio, which is a native blue duck in New Zealand. Can't believe I haven't had Sam on the podcast before. I swear I have. But nevertheless, Sam Gibson is an incredible individual, super motivated, just got a huge smile on his face all the time and does extremely amazing work in New Zealand and so I think you're going to really Enjoy the next 40 minutes. It's just your typical hard hitting Blood origins type discussion. So enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Sam Gibson]

It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it? Brittany My name? Does my hair look okay?

[Robbie]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the cotomy. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be and a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. You had me fooled, man. I've been watching your insta stories, which, by the way, I love because you take me into the New Zealand bush with you. You haven't shown me a feral cow yet. I know that you own that secret for me. Right.

[Sam Gibson]

We got those little locations.

[Robbie]

Runner, you know that I found my gun. Did I tell you I found it? No again.

[Sam Gibson]

Did you? You told me that at seeker show. Eh?

[Robbie]

No, I told you at seeker show that it was still missing.

[Sam Gibson]

Ha.

[Robbie]

It was gone. Like the Delta airlines had lost it. Went to South Africa after the seeker show. Met a guy who's in the cargo business. He said, send me the weibull number. Send me the weibull number. He found it. Nice. I've got it here. My grandfather's 416Rigby. Now the trick is, can I bring it into New Zealand? I'd love to. I'm sure I can. I'm sure there's ways to do that.

[Sam Gibson]

But we've got to be pretty relaxed, surely.

[Robbie]

Ah, it's just a matter of filling out forms and stuff like that, so. But yeah, so now I have the 416 Rigby to shoot a feral cow in the. Let me remind Mike. Is it the tear tears or. Yeah, that's what you said. Right.

[Sam Gibson]

I've got a spot that's got like some beautiful feral cows at the moment. They come from like Angus jeans. Jeez. And they are just. They're.

[Robbie]

Are they angry buggers?

[Sam Gibson]

They. If you shoot them wrong, they can be. For sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But like, you try not to, you know what I mean? Like. And I like to have a dog with me too, because, man, they're sneaky.

[Robbie]

Like the cows are sneaky.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, like, they're really. You know, I had a buddy that was hunting mountain lions over in the States, okay. And he was guiding. And a lot of the time he's like, oh, you'd be guiding and then you'd loop back around on yourself and they would have, you know, they would have been followed, come back and followed you.

[Robbie]

And, and the cows?

[Sam Gibson]

No, the mountain lions. But. Oh, okay. The cows do similar thing, bro. Like they, they'll. They can smell you. So you, you're. You're stalking up on one mob and a bull will come behind you. So I quite like having the dog just because it lets you know what's going on when you can't see it.

[Robbie]

Interesting.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah. But no, yeah. And it's been a wet summer so far. We've got some tucker on the ground at the moment. So everything's super fat.

[Robbie]

Now remember, now remember, listen, you're speaking to a majority of an American audience, so if you start throwing like Maori terms in there, they're gonna be like, what the hell is this guy talking about? Or just say Tucker. Tucker, I. E. Food.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, food.

[Robbie]

Okay, so it wasn't actually a Maoriwood.

[Sam Gibson]

If you, if I do though, can you like, be like, oh, I'll pause.

[Robbie]

You like, just like I just did like tucker. What is taka? No, it's tucker. Food. I. E. I get it.

[Sam Gibson]

Sorry.

[Robbie]

Sam Gibson, welcome back to the Blood Origins podcast. Second time, right? Or first time?

[Sam Gibson]

First time, I think. My bro.

[Robbie]

What?

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

No way. No way. How have I not had you on the podcast?

[Sam Gibson]

I don't know, but like, we seem to.

[Robbie]

I've had literally everybody from New Zealand on the podcast.

[Sam Gibson]

Maybe I've just been hiding in the bush, fella.

[Robbie]

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[Sam Gibson]

Never forget you, bro. But always, always, like, because there's no reception in the bush where we are. I'm dropping content in retrospect, which is.

[Robbie]

Ah, okay, okay. Semi live Instagram stories.

[Sam Gibson]

Semi live. A bit of an underscore on the semi.

[Robbie]

When were you in the bush for that trip?

[Sam Gibson]

That last trip last weekend? It was amazing.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Sam Gibson]

Beautiful and incredible trip, eh? Like we had some. You've got some amazing woman hunters on Eastern field link, and they're just so capable and it's great. It changes the whole Tone of a trip. When you've got women out there with their dogs, and as fellas, we can kind of step back and carry the traps, you know, it's. It's. It's really. We're just so grateful to have some pretty incredible woman on our. On our project day.

[Robbie]

Are you. Would you call yourself the executive director, founder. What are you of Eastern Fuel Link?

[Sam Gibson]

I'm Justin Bushman, man.

[Robbie]

No, you're not.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah. A group of mates and I, we founded the Eastern fuel link in 2020. You know, it's the place where my grandfather taught us how to fish and how to hunt, and my father taught us about the ecology in the area. And at that time, it was abundant with bird life, so that's what we grew up with around us. You know, plenty of trout, lots of deer, but also abundant native bird life. And so when I came back to Waileka in my twenties, there were no birds left, so we got together with a bunch of my mates, founded the Eastern Fuel Link Project, a trapping project to trap stoats to get those birds. Birds humming and.

[Robbie]

Yeah, and you're just talking about, does it affect all birds, The. The predator trapping in New Zealand, or is it. I know fio. And by the way, FIO is a native blue duck in New Zealand. And I have been chastised in the past. My. I am. I'm, like, almost fluent in Maori now because I've been chastised in the past because I think I called it a we o the first time I said it, because it's spelled W H I o.

[Sam Gibson]

That's right. And our real and our language. Wh. Makes a F sound.

[Robbie]

Yeah. And everybody climbed into me. It's not a wheel. It's a feo, Robbie. Get it right. And I was like, damn. Okay.

[Sam Gibson]

Well, that must be difficult for you, hey, Robbie. Because you are traveling around the world interacting with, like, many, many indigenous peoples and many, many languages, and they must all have their own intricacies.

[Robbie]

Hey, they do. And I guess it's a little bit. I don't know. The. The reason I think I'm so successful in. In what we do is my superpower is just remembering people's. I've. I remember people's names, and I can remember phrases and stuff like that just very, very easily. And so people look at me like, how did you remember that person's name? You met them a year ago. I said, that's just how I do it. I know. I know it. So I used to be able to. I used to lecture to like 85 kids in my Applied Aquatic and Terrestrial Ecology class as a university. And before the first day I would say to them, you know, I've got a reputation in this class. I don't take role because I know if you're here or if you're not. And this is how I do. And I already memorized six people's names. This is first day of class. From their pictures, I'd say, you see that person in the purple? That's Jake Matthews. And he's like, holy shit, how does he know my name? And I'd go through six people and then the next week they'll be in lab, there'll be three labs of 30 kids each or whatever numbers were, something like that. And I'd start the lab to say, let me see if I've done my homework correctly. And I'd start at the back of the lab and I'd just go through every single person without stopping. I'd tell them their first name and last name and I'd finished and I said, did I get anybody's name incorrect? And they'd be like, nope. And so then I would. And then once I knew everybody's name, if somebody was late to my class, two minutes late, and I was lecturing already, I would stop lecturing and I would go, sophie Brown, why are you late to my class? I'd call them out and everyone was just like, holy shit, this guy is just like.

[Sam Gibson]

Instant respect day.

[Robbie]

So it's just, I don't know, it just shows people that you're paying attention and you remember them. And luckily I can do that for sure.

[Sam Gibson]

For sure.

[Robbie]

So tell people about the Eastern FIO link. The Eastern FIO link obviously is a pet project of yours, but it's not uncommon what you're doing in New Zealand, right?

[Sam Gibson]

It's not uncommon what we're doing. At the time it was uncommon for Hunter Lee Conservation project. We just didn't have them. We had the Wapiti foundation and the Sika Foundation. You've told plenty of stories about those guys.

[Robbie]

And that was it.

[Sam Gibson]

That was it. I helped the Sika foundation set up their project. I'd done work on the Wapiti foundation down in Fiordland when I was working down there as a trapper. Came home and there were no fuel left in our rivers.

[Robbie]

What do you mean doing work as a trapper? You were gainfully employed trapping?

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, bro, that's been my whole life. So as a 12 year old I was mischief as at school. So I was naughty as like, yeah, I won't get too deep into that. But yeah, I was going on a different trajectory. We've got some pretty, some other ways of employment here in New Zealand and I was heading towards that. And so my parents, they sent me into the bush, rather get me into mischief in the bush than in town. And they, and, and I got taught how to be a trapper. And so we were like living in the bush in huts in the middle of like seven hours walk in. Sometimes the old boys would like, there's no room in the hut. The young fellows would have to go outside, dig a hole, build a fire in that hole, let the fire burn down to coals, cover it with earth and then sleep in your sleeping bags. On top of that, on top of that, that earth that heated up earth fire. They're teaching us how to eat out all the Kai. But our whole thing in Aotearoa, in.

[Robbie]

New Zealand, Aikai is food, right?

[Sam Gibson]

Oh, sorry. Yep, food, Yep.

[Robbie]

A tearoa is New Zealand.

[Sam Gibson]

Yep, yep. And I guess that's the point of difference in, in our perspective on Eastern Field Link than our other hunter led projects. You know, in our country, deer are introduced, trout are introduced, pigs are introduced, shami are introduced, taro, all these species that we love to hunt now are introduced. But prior to the introduction of these species that came with colonization, we were still hunters.

[Robbie]

But let me ask this was as you know, obviously you have a Maori background, Maori, dare I say pedigree. Do you see it as. Do you see there's, if there's, Is there a difference in your mind between invasives, ferals, nuisance animals like stoats, rats, cats, possums and deer. Shammy tar. Is there a difference in your mind?

[Sam Gibson]

I come from where I come from and our culture on the east coast.

[Robbie]

Which is New Zealand. This is you, you're saying I'm a New Zealander? Yeah. I've got some Mori in my past, but this is me and particularly in.

[Sam Gibson]

My part of New Zealand, we're very Mori. Like you walk down the street and most of the population is mori. You know, go to other areas of New Zealand, you won't see Mori people, hardly any at all. So where I come from in New Zealand the culture is very strongly Mori. So I just want to say that before I answer your question.

[Robbie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sam Gibson]

The answer to your question is that our peoples prior to colonization were hunters, skilled hunters. Land was carved up into areas where each farm, whnau could hunt, where each Whnau, each family could look after that area to have abundance of our native birds for the purpose of hunting. And so I guess in our country, there is this. Those that come from a white culture see deer as like, wow, the best thing ever. And. And tar is the best thing ever. And shami is the best thing ever. And that underpins what the Wapiti foundation do, and it underpins what the Seeker foundation do. When we came to setting up a conservation project, our outlook probably is a little bit different because ours is about what can the ecosystem offer us at this time. So our role is still to bring abundance to those areas that we hunt like we did traditionally. You know, it's the same concept. Oh, we eat out of this ecosystem. We've got to have abundance in this ecosystem. It's our job to be part of that ecosystem to bring up abundance. And so the question is not, is one better than the other? It's about, what can our ecosystem afford to provide us with now? So right now, yeah, but I would challenge you.

[Robbie]

I'm going to challenge you. I think you'd appreciate it. I think there's a very clear difference between stoats, rats, hedgehogs, those kinds of invasives, and shammy tar, red deer, fallow deer. I hear what you're saying, which is there's an abundance question in here that we have to take into consideration from a dear perspective. But here's why I say what I say. There's no value in the stoats, rats, hedgehogs, cats, from a biodiversity perspective, nor human perspective in New Zealand.

[Sam Gibson]

So there is a differentiation there. But I want to scale it back to another thing that people are unaware of. So unquestionably, deer and tar and shammy are having huge impacts on our ecosystems. A lot of the food that we eat has been eaten by these species. So that has a huge human impact as well. So if you're thinking about an ecosystem from a more traditional standpoint, you want to be able to harvest fruit, vegetables and meat out of that ecosystem.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Sam Gibson]

When you have lots of deer in an ecosystem, you can't do that.

[Robbie]

Correct.

[Sam Gibson]

When you have possums in that ecosystem, you can't do that because the deer eat the vegetables and the trees that provide fruit, the possums eat the fruit on the trees, the rats eat the fruit on the trees, the stoats eat your traditional food, your traditional meat being your native birds, and the rats do too. So, yes, there is a differentiation, because we can eat deer, we don't like to eat stoats, we don't like to eat rats. Like, I've eaten Rat before. It's nice.

[Robbie]

Don't tell people that. SAV Gibson if it's been, if rats.

[Sam Gibson]

Have been eating like our fruits out of our forest, they taste like lamb. They're delicious, but I don't really like to eat them. And the possums too, we can eat them all the life.

[Robbie]

I can see the, you know, you're gonna, the next Eastern fiorling courses, you're going to have a bunch of rats penned up and you've been eating, feeding them fruit for six months and you're going to make everyone eat lamb flavored rat.

[Sam Gibson]

When I was in the bush and Fiordland, we ate quite a bit of rat. Oh my God. Like, you know, that's just, that's just our culture actually. When rats were brought to our country by Mori, when came over on the Waka, they were bought as pets and as a food source. So eating rat is not something that culturally is foreign to our country. But I guess what I'm trying to say around that is there's two different ways of thinking for us. It's like we are trying to bring our ecosystems back to abundance so that there's an abundance of vegetation, an abundance of fruit and an abundance of meat in it. Maybe one day we will have an abundance of our traditional meats like our native birds. But at the same time, right now, deer and pigs are part of our ecosystem. Fallow deer, succulent and tasty. Red deer, delicious. You know, plenty of pigs too. And when they've been eating our tawa fruit, they become very sweet and fat and tasty. So I think that's the cultural difference. You know, like in the south island and in more European centric areas you have people that are like, we want as many deer as possible, we want as many tar as possible. But where we come from, we want to be able to have abundance in our ecosystem. So our deer need to be managed. We are really happy to have them in a contemporary context. But we also want to have our native foods, our traditional foods in abundance, you know, and that takes humans being part of our ecosystems. We don't just come in to do the trapping. We live and we breathe and we eat and we have our kids and that is where we live and how we live, if that makes sense. I think they're two different models.

[Robbie]

So for those that aren't, you know, that they've never experienced this idea of trapping. What does it look like in the Eastern fiolink and explain exactly what you're trapping for Again, so we're trapping These.

[Sam Gibson]

Little creatures called stoats, I think they're very similar to your guys. Ermine.

[Robbie]

It's like a weasel, right?

[Sam Gibson]

Like a weasel.

[Robbie]

And they're super aggressive.

[Sam Gibson]

They're gangster little guys. You know, their heartbeat beats three times faster than the human heart. They only have to eat every 10 days. They're like your local, like, crackhead, you know, they are constantly cruising around trying to investigate opportunities for food. And when they come into contact with an opportunity, they will kill everything they come into contact with. So that's why they have an impact on our bird species. And so what we do is we lay out traps every hundred meters down the rivers and every hundred meters down the ridges. And our hunters, we check those as we hunt.

[Robbie]

Are stoats everywhere in the landscape or they just focus in and around rivers?

[Sam Gibson]

They're everywhere in the landscape. But what we find on Eastern Fuel Link is that if we trap the ones that interact with the rivers, our ducks thrive. And if we trap, trap the ones that, because they travel, linear landscape features, so they'll travel the river and they'll travel the spurs. Because they're not, you know, they're like us, they're kind of lazy. You know, they want to get around the easiest way possible. And so if we can trap the stoats on the spurs, our kiwi birds, you know, like, that's what New Zealand is iconic with that bird with a really long beak, you know, they. They thrive as well. So what we do is we have those traps.

[Robbie]

You have both. You have kiwi also.

[Sam Gibson]

In the eastern fielding, we've got pretty much everything, rather. Yeah. Our crew have been trapping for four or five years now, and we've got everything coming back. We've got kaka breeding, which are these, like.

[Robbie]

What is the kaka?

[Sam Gibson]

They're like a brown parrot with, like, slight red tone and they just tear you.

[Robbie]

Are they different from Ikea? That's a different parrot, Right.

[Sam Gibson]

The Kia loves the mountains.

[Robbie]

Yeah, it's more of an alpine parrot.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah. And the kaka is a bush parrot, okay. Yep. And so they tear everything apart and they break down old trees that are dead and they. They break them down into the soil and that. That rotten material falls into the ferns and the ferns break that down into soil, and that soil feeds the trees again. So they've got quite an important job in the bush.

[Robbie]

So you think. So stoats, how do. How are stoats affecting kaka? Are they, like.

[Sam Gibson]

So kaka, are they nesting?

[Robbie]

And the stoats are climbing the trees and grabbing eggs. Out of the trees and stuff?

[Sam Gibson]

That's right. They nest in hollow trees and stoes just run straight up trees and hoover up the nest. Yeah, Yep.

[Robbie]

Are you. So you've got these, these traps are they, they're, they're. Talk to me about what a trap looks like.

[Sam Gibson]

So we run two types of traps. One is a spring powered trap that is an L shape and the animal walks in to get a piece of meat and it walks onto a treadle plate and the trap springs off and just turns it into a hash brow. It just squashes it and there. I did all the initial testing on that, I helped develop those traps and they are a class humane. So everyone, we've got a thing in New Zealand that when we're killing animals, all of our traps have to be humane and that means like irreversibly unconscious within 30 seconds. So they're good. And then we have another trap that's a reseeding trap that can, that's gas powered and it can kill 24 animals before it needs to be reset. Which is perfect for our really remote areas because we don't have tracks where we work. The hills are real steep and so we're often using the rivers to get into the back areas, into the backcountry. And so when our rivers flood in winter, we can't get to the areas we need to trap. So having those traps that can kill 24 stoats before they need to be reset is pretty key to the success of our operation.

[Robbie]

How many traps do you have out right now in Eastern Fierlink?

[Sam Gibson]

Over a thousand. I think we're sitting at like 1100 and we're looking after like 30,000 hectares. Do you guys operate in hectares over there?

[Robbie]

No. Acres. So that's about 68, 69,000 acres.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah. It's not a small area, right?

[Robbie]

Yeah, it's not a small area and it's also not flat. So 69,000 acres in the ridges and mountains that you guys are operating in is probably more like. Feels like more like 150,000 acres.

[Sam Gibson]

She's pretty steep in there, right? You lose a lot of.

[Robbie]

It's all public land. All this is private land?

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, the majority of our project, 25,000 hectares of it is, is public land. Everyone can access it. And so the whole community is. The hunters come from all over, from the local cities and they all come and hunt in this area, which is pretty, pretty special. You know, we got a lot of people that care about the place. People will come from our main cities, which are like 6 hours drive away to come and hunt in this area.

[Robbie]

Yeah. Because that's what you're offering, right? That's the. I think that's the coolest part about this thing, is that it's. You go to work, dare I say work, that you are, you know, have to move traps in, you have to check traps, you have to reset traps, but you get to stay in these cool backcountry huts that New Zealand has everywhere, which is public huts, which is just an amazing thing that New Zealand landscape has. And you get to hunt as much as you want, correct?

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, we can.

[Robbie]

Unless you do the. You have to do the work first.

[Sam Gibson]

We. Well, at the same time, we can pretty much guarantee that people are heading home with deer and would pretty much guarantee, if you want to catch a trout, you can catch your limit every day.

[Robbie]

And it's not like you are. Maybe you are. And correct me here if you. If I'm wrong here, but you're not saying, okay, guys, you only have. You're only allowed to kill this.

[Sam Gibson]

No, it's gloves off where we come from. And that's part of our thing. You know, the more deer we shoot, the more of our traditional foods there are. And so it's a good thing. If we're shooting our hinds, it means that we have heaps of food in the ecosystem, and that's more food for fat deer. But it's also.

[Robbie]

You're not worried about, like, exterminating the deer, Getting rid of them all?

[Sam Gibson]

Some of the places on my project will see two or three hundred deer in the morning.

[Robbie]

Oh, geez.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah. Like, it's an. Like, I know where other people come from, and they often put their own situation over their own situation on our situation. Deer are an issue. Where I come from, we see two or three hundred deer. Our forests are falling over because there's an overpopulation of deer. And, you know, in the United States, where there's a budget for monitoring deer, there's a really strong culture of hunting and the opportunities need to be balanced out. In our area, there are so many deer that our forests are actually collapsing, and there's no budget to manage those populations. Herd management isn't part of our culture. As New Zealand, we have incredible organizations like the Wapiti foundation and Sika foundation that are actively managing deer. But in the majority of New Zealand, it doesn't happen, and there's no budget associated with it. So the more deer we shoot, the better in our situation.

[Robbie]

Yeah, that's it. And then you can also fish as much as you want, too. And you got stacks of rainbow trout, which are, again, an invasive species. However, native trout have a hosey on them, as I. Well, not really technically a hosie, but they are free from persecution in New Zealand because of the economic value that it brings to New Zealand. Do you know that? Maybe I'm teaching you something.

[Sam Gibson]

What's. What's it? I don't know what a hosie mean.

[Robbie]

You don't know what a hosie is? No, you don't. I'm probably saying it wrong. Hoosie or whatnot. A hosie is a herd of special interest.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah. Yep.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, that's right.

[Robbie]

To trout doesn't have A Hosey has something similar. Because otherwise it would have been persecuted. It would have been like, get rid of it all. Shock it out of our rivers. Know, get rid of it all. But it has a law in place in the New Zealand.

[Sam Gibson]

And there's. There's two ways of looking at that, eh, Robin?

[Robbie]

Well, no, it's. It's. It's because that's the whole reason why we want a hosie for Tar. Fjordlapri is chasing the hosie. Sikh is chasing the hosie, is that we still understand we need to manage. We're not saying that. We're just saying we don't want you to expend tremendous, tremendous, tremendous government resources to try and eradicate something that brings economic value as well as all other things like physical health, mental health, whatnot, to.

[Sam Gibson]

And we couldn't eradicate these animals if we tried.

[Robbie]

No. Exactly.

[Sam Gibson]

As simple as that, you know? But there's two ways of looking at that, too. So you're right. We got rainbow trout and we've got brown trout, and you're allowed to catch two trout a day. And it's pretty normal for us to catch anything from like three pounders up to five, six pounders in our rivers. And so that's good for our crew because smoked trout is on the menu.

[Robbie]

Oh, brilliant.

[Sam Gibson]

All the time. But the other interesting side of that is trout actively eat our native foods, our traditional foods as well. And so a lot of the species that we traditionally harvested out of our rivers, we can't harvest out of our rivers anymore. So the ecosystem can provide us trout. Now, many of us have aspirations that we can build our traditional food sources, but I would argue that that still is fishing and that still is hunting. And so it makes. I think there's a space for herds of special interests. I think there has to be.

[Robbie]

Otherwise it has to be like we're just Wasting resources. The whole point of hosie is to stop wasting resources, fighting the forest and birds of the world who constantly want to stop what you're doing.

[Sam Gibson]

And they've got no idea. They've got no. They don't have people on the ground doing the work. They're just so disconnected from what it actually takes to manage these ecosystems. They have no idea. But I think that there's a model here where we have hosier like Sika Foundation, Wapiti foundation, whitetail. On Stewart island, you have these real herds of significance. And over here, you have areas that are managed for biodiversity and traditional food. I think that there's two different land uses. And of course, we can't have the budget to manage the whole thing for any one land use. But I think that. I think that both need to happen because in our country, having. There's people that are here that have a way of thinking, and there's people that were here and are still here that still have a way of thinking, and both need to be recognized in our management of our ecosystems. And both are hunting systems. And I don't think that we can talk about hunting in New Zealand without acknowledging traditional hunting.

[Robbie]

Yeah, yeah. So what's next? Eastern fiolink. You've obviously been going since 2020. With three years down the road, you've got a thousand traps in the ground.

[Sam Gibson]

Over a hundred western.

[Robbie]

Is the western FIO link coming up next?

[Sam Gibson]

Possibly. Possibly. Yeah. No, our thing at the moment is we are transitioning into a model where, like, we've got over a hundred active volunteers from all over the country.

[Robbie]

And you're not even an official, like, nonprofit yet, are you?

[Sam Gibson]

We're a charitable trust. Yep.

[Robbie]

Okay. And why are you not, like, raising money?

[Sam Gibson]

We're trying. We're trying. So, yeah, we're a million dollars deep so far, which is good.

[Robbie]

That's amazing, dude.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, we're taking, like. We come across as a bunch of, like, unorganized hunters.

[Robbie]

Bushmen.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, exactly. But we're a million dollars deep now. Our next thing is actually bringing on a coordinator because the project has got so big.

[Robbie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sam Gibson]

100% unlock that funding. And to coordinate our volunteers and to grow the project, we actually just need to pay coordinator. So that's. That's our big thing over the next couple of years is.

[Robbie]

Yeah, you need to get that coordinator in place, and then you move to the next one Western FIO link. You started up there the same way. Put a coordinator in place and just keep growing, growing and growing and growing.

[Sam Gibson]

Because there's Definitely appetite for our approach and what we do, you know, like a lot of Europe, a lot of Europe, a lot of white hunters in our country are actively, like they're coming to our project because they want to learn all of that food that they can eat out of our ecosystems. All those, all that traditional knowledge, they want to learn that. So they all come to our project on Eastern Fuel Inc. They do trapping and they learn this stuff and it helps them become better hunters, you know, because the, all the, the deer and that, that, that eat these foods, they're the same foods that we eat. So they, there's real appetite for more projects that, that essentially teach us how to be better hunters, but also sort of come from a different approach. There's a real ground, there's a real groundwell groundswell of, of, of interest. And in a different approach to hunter conservation, do you find that you get.

[Robbie]

Any pushback in what you're doing?

[Sam Gibson]

I mean. Yeah. What? Oh, sure.

[Robbie]

For what reason had death threats? For what reason?

[Sam Gibson]

Two reasons.

[Robbie]

Because you kill deer.

[Sam Gibson]

Oh, so there's a bunch of people that's predominantly in the south island that think, oh, so for us, if we shoot a deer, oftentimes if we see a velvet stag, we're like, oh, that's fat, that's delicious. That's going to feed a lot of families that's going to go in the freezer, right? And so we're so happy to shoot a velvet stag because they're fat and they're delicious. A lot of people are, oh, that's a trophy. You can't shoot those.

[Robbie]

Oh, so you say the height's coming from hunters?

[Sam Gibson]

From hunters coming from.

[Robbie]

Okay, okay, that's just jealousy then. What about anti hunters? Do you get any? Nothing. Right.

[Sam Gibson]

So we, it's, it's been a fascinating journey for us. Hey, like, so we are like strong, staunchly hunter led. Like, like 80% of our volunteers are hunters. But in the last couple of years it's been very interesting because we've seen like, and I'm kind of not, I'm, I'm confused about the whole thing myself to some degree. We've seen an influx of people wanting to come and volunteer on the project to learn our way of life who are vegetarian and vegan. And it makes me interesting. I'm baffled by it, you know.

[Robbie]

Well, I'm not because I've spoken to lots of vegans and the vegans that I've speaking to that are rational will say if they chose to be meat eaters or if they were to agree with a meat eater, it would be people like us that choose to hunt because the meat essentially, and here's an argument that you probably don't know and it's good for you to bury this into your brain. Not that you don't have to use it very often, but you could almost argue that it is acceptable for a vegan to eat your meat. And here's why. A vegan has strong animal ethics, animal rights, right? Like we don't want to impart suffering on the animal, anything like that. How many times are you shooting a deer because of overpopulation of that animal? So by shooting that deer, you're actually doing a benefit to the overall population from an animal health perspective, an animal ethics perspective. So it's vegan.

[Sam Gibson]

It's as close ethically to vegan as we can get.

[Robbie]

As close as you can get. And I've had a lady who is a vegan in the UK hunt a Chinese water deer because they were overpopulated and felt that she was okay. She had in her mind wrestled with the ethics to say I can eat this meat because it checks all the boxes for me of why I chose a vegan lifestyle.

[Sam Gibson]

And we see that like at the weekend we had, we had, at the weekend we had, a bunch of, our seven crew were hunters and we had two vegans on the trip. One of our, one of our hunters, Harriet, she shot a young stick, brought it back to cap, and the vegans took home venison because, oh, we can eat that meat. We can't eat the meat from a supermarket. Yeah, they took home venison, I told you. And I think to me that's the benefit of what we do is like we are a hunter led project focused on ecosystem literacy. All walks of life turn up for that. Ecosystem literacy. Maybe it bridges some gaps between different areas of our society. I don't know.

[Robbie]

I can see that. I can see that. I like the idea of ecosystem literacy. To wrap this thing up, talking about ecosystem literacy, I'm looking at a webpage right here that says Occam's New Zealand Book Awards announcing top titles for 2020. The winner of the prize gets $65,000. And the book that you wrote, what is it under? Non fiction.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, Non fiction Illustrated nonfiction.

[Robbie]

Sam the Trapman, Cracking Yarns and Tall Tales in the Bush by Sam Gibson, Alan and Ewan. New Zealand has an asterisk by your name. What does the asterisk mean? That you a strange fella? Probably.

[Sam Gibson]

I, I imagine that's what it means. No, Yeah, I don't know. Yeah.

[Robbie]

But I pretty represents debut authors, by the way. Congratulations.

[Sam Gibson]

Thank you, brother. Yeah, it's been a bit of a journey. I didn't know how to write a book.

[Robbie]

How long did it take you?

[Sam Gibson]

About a year.

[Robbie]

Oh, I could imagine that. Yeah.

[Sam Gibson]

One day a week for a year. I work as well, and then I run Eastern Fuel Inc. On the side. So pretty, pretty busy. And yeah, one day a week for a year. And it was a bit of a journey learning a new skill. So I was really.

[Robbie]

Did you write it and then sell it or did you sell an idea and then wrote it?

[Sam Gibson]

I didn't do any of the selling. The publisher rang me up and was like, do you want to write a book? And I said, no.

[Robbie]

Really?

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah, I said, no, I don't want to write a book.

[Robbie]

You don't have an agent or anything like that?

[Sam Gibson]

No, I do now off the back of the book. But yeah. So no, the publisher rang me up. Well, they sent me an Instagram message and were like, hey, do you want to write a book? I was like, I'm not old yet. Like, I feel like potentially it's a little old for someone of my age to write a book. And they're like, how about we send you a contract? And they sent me a contract. I handed it to the wife and she looked at him and said, you're writing a book. I wrote a book. There you go. Wrote a book.

[Robbie]

She was like, I need upgrade on this house. I need to put an addition on this house. You're writing a book, Sam. Trap man.

[Sam Gibson]

Literally, it took our family from living in the hood, like, intense area. We had four shootings on our block in a year and three stabbings. Like, intense area took our family out of the hood and put us into a nice area of town. So if that's what writing a book achieved for our family, I'm super grateful, you know, But I have been super. I have been really interested to see how a hunting book would go in New Zealand book sales, and it has been absolutely eaten up. And so that's been fascinating because I was, like, not sure that there were enough hunters in New Zealand or enough hunters that love to read that the book would be able to compete with normal books. And goodness me, as you say, we've been nominated for a book award, which is just crazy.

[Robbie]

That is crazy, dude. That is crazy. So the book is called Cracking Yarns and Tall Tales from the Bush by Sam Gibson. Can people in America buy it? How can somebody buy this book? You?

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah. So.

[Robbie]

And by the way, I have read the entire thing.

[Sam Gibson]

I'm sorry.

[Robbie]

I loved it. No, it was great. It was good because it tells you all of your history of your trapping and whatnot. It gives you a little bit of insight into New Zealand hunting and trapping and whatnot. I love the way it's put in there. I will say this, I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. There's a picture in there that was taken during a blood origin shoot that is 100% true.

[Sam Gibson]

Yep. Honest and feeling. A blood origin shoot.

[Robbie]

I'm just saying I. You know, I don't know if there's a commission involved in this thing. I'll just. What I'll do is I'll just take a feral cow.

[Sam Gibson]

You take a feral cow. Well, next time you're in New Zealand, turn up, because I have a block that has got some very, very big, very, very juicy and tasty feral cows. And I reckon. Can you take meat home with you?

[Robbie]

No, we'll just eat it there.

[Sam Gibson]

So you just have to stay here until you finished eating.

[Robbie]

Finish the whole cow.

[Sam Gibson]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Okay. So where can people buy the book?

[Sam Gibson]

There's a link to Australian store and it's $10 shipping anywhere in the world, so.

[Robbie]

$10 shipping anywhere in the world. Is that Australian store? Allen and Element. That's the publisher, right?

[Sam Gibson]

Yep. Otherwise you can buy it on all of those platforms like Amazon.

[Robbie]

Sam the Trap Man, Cracking Yarns and Tall Tales. Any is the next book being written?

[Sam Gibson]

I'm not at liberty to discuss that information.

[Robbie]

Okay. So the answer is yes, I understand. We're looking forward to it. You didn't say it. I said it. All good.

[Sam Gibson]

Cool.

[Robbie]

Anything else? Sam, where can I find you?

[Sam Gibson]

Just on the usual socials. Sam the Trap man on Instagram and Facebook and YouTube and all of those things. We just putting out fun adventures all the time.

[Robbie]

Yep, you do certainly have fun adventures. And again, I'm. I'm working on getting my back in good shape. And once my back's in good shape, then we're coming to hunt. Okay.

[Sam Gibson]

Don't worry about your back. Robbie. You come over here, fella. I've got a whole stack of young fellas that'll carry for you.

[Robbie]

Sounds good, man. Sounds good. You have a wonderful day now, my man.

[Sam Gibson]

You too, brother. I appreciate you keep doing what you do. We really appreciate the work that you do for our whole way of life across the world. Brother, without you looking after our way of life, it wouldn't look the same.

[Robbie]

You're welcome, brother. Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.