Our Voice 8: Baobabs, Zimbabwe, and the Front Lines

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Summary

Episode: Our Voice 8: Baobabs, Zimbabwe, and the Front Lines
Release Date: May 14, 2025
Hosted by: Blood Origins Inc.

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Introduction

In Episode 8 of Blood Origins titled "Baobabs, Zimbabwe, and the Front Lines," hosts Willie Pabst and Robbie engage in a candid discussion about wildlife conservation, focusing on the challenges of elephant overpopulation in Zimbabwe's Sango property. This episode delves deep into the complexities of modern conservation efforts, the role of hunting, and the pressing need for sustainable wildlife management.

Background: Sango Conservancy and Willie Pabst's Journey

Willie Pabst, an outspoken German conservationist, shares his profound connection to Africa and his acquisition of the Sango property, part of the Save Valley Conservancy. Pabst highlights the establishment of Sango as a testament to hunter-led conservation efforts aimed at sustaining wildlife amidst dwindling habitats.

Notable Quote:

"I wanted to convey the truth about hunting." — Willie Pabst [02:17]

Current Challenges: Elephant Overpopulation and Habitat Destruction

The core of the conversation centers on the alarming overpopulation of elephants at Sango. Originally, in the mid-1990s, Pabst successfully reintroduced 560 elephants to the conservancy, marking one of the largest relocations of elephants. However, due to reduced land area—from over 300,000 hectares to approximately 220,000 hectares—Sango now hosts around 950 elephants, far exceeding its carrying capacity of 200.

Notable Quote:

"We are from over 300,000 hectares down to maybe operating 220,240,000 hectares. We cannot expand because we've got humans on our doorstep. We probably have about easily 1,500 elephants too many." — Willie Pabst [18:34]

The excessive number of elephants has led to significant environmental degradation, notably the destruction of mature baobab trees, some with circumferences of 30 meters. This unchecked population growth threatens not only the elephants but the entire ecosystem, including predators like lions and hyenas.

Conservation Strategies: Hunting as a Tool for Sustainability

Pabst and Robbie discuss the critical role of hunting in managing elephant populations. Hunting is presented not merely as a means of animal removal but as a vital component of the conservation economy that funds habitat protection and community development.

Notable Quote:

"75% of all wildlife areas south of the equator need hunting, the income from hunting in some form to survive." — Robbie [35:25]

Pabst emphasizes that without regulated hunting, the conservancy would face habitat collapse, leading to the eventual demise of multiple species. He argues that sustainable utilization through hunting is essential for maintaining ecological balance and ensuring the financial viability of conservation initiatives.

Political and Social Obstacles: Navigating Public Perception and Policy

The conversation addresses the significant challenges posed by negative public perceptions and political opposition to hunting. Pabst criticizes organizations like IFAW for mismanaging elephant translocations and slandering conservation efforts, arguing that misinformation hinders effective wildlife management.

Notable Quote:

"We are arguing whether we can shoot or allow shooting of 0 2.3% of our elephants. When we have a progeny of 5 or 6 or 7%. We in Southern Africa have about 150,000 elephants too many." — Robbie [21:43]

Pabst advocates for transparency and factual communication to shift the narrative around hunting and conservation, emphasizing the urgent need to present the realities faced on the ground to policymakers and the public.

Potential Solutions: Translocation and Culling

Pabst proposes two main solutions to address elephant overpopulation:

1. Translocation: Moving excess elephants to regions in Africa with available habitat, such as northern Mozambique. However, he acknowledges the logistical and financial challenges, including habitat suitability, security concerns, and the complex process of relocating large herds without disrupting existing ecosystems.

2. Culling: As a last resort, Pabst discusses culling as a necessary measure to prevent ecological collapse. He outlines the scale of such an operation, noting that selective culling could stabilize elephant populations but would require firm commitment and substantial resources.

Notable Quote:

"We need to take drastic actions. Why do we need to take it? We caused it." — Robbie [32:51]

Conclusion: Optimism and Call to Action

Despite the daunting challenges, both Pabst and Robbie express optimism about finding viable solutions. Pabst emphasizes the importance of sustainable hunting in the wildlife economy and urges stakeholders to prioritize ecological balance over political correctness.

Notable Quote:

"There are always solutions. First of all, you're talking to an optimist." — Robbie [48:50]

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of commitment to conservation through sustainable practices and a call to listeners to support and advocate for fact-based wildlife management strategies.

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Final Thoughts:
"Our Voice 8: Baobabs, Zimbabwe, and the Front Lines" offers a thought-provoking exploration of the intricate balance between wildlife conservation and sustainable hunting. Willie Pabst and Robbie provide invaluable insights into the real-world challenges faced by conservationists, highlighting the need for informed and decisive action to preserve Africa's rich biodiversity.

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Tune in to Blood Origins Inc. for more in-depth discussions on conservation and sustainable hunting practices shaping the future of wildlife management.

Transcript

[Willie Pabst]

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[Robbie]

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[Willie Pabst]

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[Robbie]

It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals.

[Willie Pabst]

How do I start it?

[Robbie]

Brittany?

[Willie Pabst]

My name.

[Robbie]

Does my hair look okay?

[Willie Pabst]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the COD of me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter.

[Robbie]

Before I forget it, Andreas sends his fondest regards. I talked to him this morning a few times and he said what are you going to do today? I said, I've got, you know, so many things going on.

[Willie Pabst]

One of the most important things in the World, you have to talk to Rob.

[Robbie]

There's this, this obnoxious person from South Africa calling you from America. So now what am I going to do? And he wants to talk about conservation when I want to build concrete highways. I don't understand this at all. So there we go.

[Willie Pabst]

Willie Pabst. I will say that it is. You know, I'm trying to keep up with you. It's six o' clock in the morning here and as I understand it, I read something the other day. Willie, I don't want to get your age wrong. How old are you, Willie?

[Robbie]

21. No, I'm 81. Sorry, you got 60 in the middle at. Okay, no, I'm 80. 81 and you are 81.

[Willie Pabst]

You act like a 21 year old. You've got the energy of a 21 year old. You are a force of forces, Willie.

[Robbie]

Paps, you'll be. You're being too kind now. That's too kind.

[Willie Pabst]

Well, I'm trying to set you up because as you said, the podcast goes downhill from here.

[Robbie]

I'm trying to ignore the number and fight it hard. As you see, I've just come out of the shower frame, coming out of the gym, out of some conference calls this morning. But you're going to stay fit if you want to fight the fight that you and I both are committed to fight. So, yeah, absolutely. No problem.

[Willie Pabst]

Will he perhaps introduce yourself to people, who you are, what you do.

[Robbie]

Well, how long do I have for an introduction? I mean, at my age, of as.

[Willie Pabst]

Long as you want. That's the beautiful thing about a podcast, anyway.

[Robbie]

No, I'm born and raised in Hamburg and obviously in the last few moments of the war. So I'm an after war child, clearly somebody who was formed by that. My Jewish friends understand how I fight for them and they're the understanding of what happened. If you don't understand what happened there and you don't look at what goes forward right now in politics and you have missed a great opportunity of learning for the future. Future. I did an education in shipping and ship management and foreign trade in Germany. And that ends my formal education and thereafter, pretty much everything I sort of taught myself or had my partners or friends teach me. And so at an early age I went to South Africa because I didn't want to join the German army. And as you know me, I'm the furthest away from a pacifist. That's not the point. But after the war, wearing a uniform just wasn't on that and they weren't going to allow Me in the Air Force. I said marching back to Moscow is not what was part of my goals. My father did that or some of my forefathers did. We didn't need to do that. South Africa formed me and I can spend hours and hours talking about it.

[Willie Pabst]

But Africa formed you from a wildlife conservation perspective.

[Robbie]

From an African perspective, I mean. And that also is of course wildlife later on. Remember I came out of here and I'm in Cape Town right now in 1964. And I thought they all loved people from Hamburg. I didn't understand this because I walked around and said they're hamburger and chips and hamburger and this. And I said they must love war. What's, what's so great about us? Until I figured out it's a meatball, it's a frikadel. We didn't have those in Germany. Okay. I mean I think it was in the 70s that the burgers came to, came to Germany anyway. 65. I was invited on my first ever safari to the Okavango swamps. Almost tanked my, my, my, the beginnings of my career and sort of business as an employee because they extended on the Okavango swamps from two weeks to four weeks on an unpaid basis if impossible. Please wire and they wired and not acceptable. But where are you going to send a cable to me in the middle of the Okavangoswom? Okay, not doable.

[Willie Pabst]

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[Robbie]

Enjoy.

[Willie Pabst]

At that time Willy, in the Okavango swamps, are you just purely ecotourism? Are you a hunter at this point? Do you think about hunting at this point?

[Robbie]

No, I'm a hunter. I've been a hunter for a long time. Not a very intensive hunter. I mean sort of like I go and I haven't shot anything for a year or two, which is just a question of time on Sango because I'm always involved in all Kinds of politics and whatever it happens to be. Because I, as a foreign white man can say a lot more in the country than a local white man. I mean, if I'd be Zimbabwean, I'd probably be spending half of my life in jail over there. But, you know, what are they going to do to me? But no. And at the time, in 65 when we went to the Okavanga Stones, I wasn't a hunter, you know, I had a gun in my hands and that sort of thing. But we went on the first ever supposed to be equal camera tourism thing with Bobby Wilmot. Bobby Wilmot was the crocodile camp. The man of legend who looked like a bookkeeper and was one of the most courageous people. You know, remember being courageous and being stupid or very close, close allies, if you will. And I've crossed that boundary many, many times. I'm wondering whether I was sometimes more stupid than courageous. But anyway, and. And he was a crocodile hunter. He hunted 2,000 crocodiles in the Okavango Swansea. Pierre converted them to skins and hides for the fashion or whatever it is in Bulawayo, from there to Europe. And we shot, I don't know, eight or 10 crocodiles. We shot two buffalo for the local water bushmen. The San also have apparently a branch that lives in the water, on the water. It was a very formative month for me. Amongst others, I learned water skiing. Needless to say, if you shoot a 17 foot crocodile at night, you try and water ski, next day you will start, oh my gosh, you don't fall water. Definitely not. So anyway, from that, if you will, I look at it today, if I look at my Sango in Zimbabwe, the root of all of that was that months in the Okavanga swamps many, many years ago. That's when wildlife, nature conservation, the appreciation of the beauty that Africa has to offer and that ultimately later on the dangers that we human beings impose on the nature that surrounds us. That started dawning on me and kept me going for a long time until I acquired Sango.

[Willie Pabst]

Well, let's start this. Where is Sango?

[Robbie]

Sango is in the southeastern part of Zimbabwe. The low felt, as they call it. And it was formerly a cattle ranch. Started in the 1920s, went bankrupt three times and ultimately hit the drought in the 91, I think 91, 92, a severe drought. I've seen one of those old 8 millimeter movies once. There wasn't a leaf on any tree. There wasn't a leaf or a patch of grass on the ground. A few zebras sort of walking Stumbling about, you could count the bones in the body. That was it. And that was the last time. And that's when we formed the Savoy Valley Conservancy and I bought the larger property within.

[Willie Pabst]

Willie, at the time of you buying that property at Sango, given the climate that we live in today, what was the climate as it relates to. Let me just start with the simplest. What was the climate as it relates to hunting? Because I'm assuming you bought Sango from a, A business perspective, knowing that you had to do some sort of. Had to do some sort of activity for it to, I don't know, either break even, make profit, or maybe your mindset at the time was like, it, I don't even. It doesn't have to make a profit. I just wanted it.

[Robbie]

Well, it was more like, like the letter, fuck it. I don't want to make a profit from it. It was more philanthropic. It was definitely not an investment that was geared around making money. In fact, the investment climate at that time was still pretty good. They were trying to sell me a lease. I said, ownership or nothing. So I got title deeds and I still have them today. And the German Zimbabwean Investment Treaty was being drafted and protects me today. So, yeah, no, that's what it was from the beginning. But however, you need to have an activity that starts at least contributing towards what you're doing, and that was hunting. It was clearly hunting from the very beginning. And the whole scenario of hunting was well established and well recognized and didn't have a negative connotation as you have today.

[Willie Pabst]

Okay. In those formative years of Sangota. And I, I, I'm setting this up purposely because I want to, I want to talk about what Sanger is today and the challenges that you have at Sanger today. In the formative years of Sanger, what was wildlife like? Did you have extreme, obviously, with drought and climate change, I think a lot of people understand. Did you, do you have vast fluctuations in wildlife? Or you were just almost like, we can always use more wildlife in those formative years, Robbie.

[Robbie]

I think it was pretty simple because of the cattle farm project, if you will, they had to kill all the elephants, all the lions, all the buffalo footed mouse or whatever it is, and all the leopards, they had guesstimated wildlife. Okay. So when I moved in, we had very little. Now, a lot of that wildlife. And that's where, whether you're religious or not, I'm probably not so much. But be that as it may, you're in awe of what nature does do to heal Itself. And these animals, a lot of. I mean, the zebras and the wildebeest and the parlor and God knows whatever else came back. We brought in 560 elephants in the mid-90s into the Sauvie Valley Conservancy. The IWF funded us.

[Willie Pabst]

Was it what. You brought those elephants in there? Let me. Again, this is. This is good content. You brought those elephants in there because there were no elephants.

[Robbie]

There were no elephants gone, all shot out.

[Willie Pabst]

And the elephants were not coming. They're not. You didn't think naturally they would return.

[Robbie]

We'd be too far away at the time, and there were too many human settlements in between us and Gonorrhezu, for example. Now, that. That wouldn't have easily happened, and it would have been a very, very slow process. But. And we brought in later on, in 2000, whatever. We brought in some lions from Malilangwe. We bought some nyala in the late 90s, and we bred them up in Balmas, because you need a certain number of nyala, 10 or 12 nyala, they get decimated by a leopard in no time at all. But if you could give you 60 in one group, that's survival. You understand all of that.

[Willie Pabst]

So the elephants. When you brought the elephants in, the 56 elephants. Again, I'm trying to set context here. Okay. When you brought the 56 elephants in, was there any conversation at the time to say, is there a maximum amount of elephants that we want on this property?

[Robbie]

Not at all. In other words, they were 560 elephants, not 56. 500.

[Willie Pabst]

Oh, shit. You brought 560 in?

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Willie Pabst]

Holy shit.

[Robbie]

Yes.

[Willie Pabst]

When? In this 90s.

[Robbie]

In the mid-90s? Yes.

[Willie Pabst]

Was it the. Probably could have been the largest relocation of elephants, period. Right.

[Robbie]

That's exactly what it was, and I still think it is today.

[Willie Pabst]

That is insane.

[Robbie]

And we had no idea that we would not be able to expand the footprint of conservation of the Salvi Valley Conservancy. The population encroaches. We human beings take the habitat away. It's not the elephant's fault that there are too many and they're destroying our habitat. It's our fault that we are destroying their habitat, basically what it is. And we've got far too many now. I mean, we are today, if you ask me, having lost land for political. Through political interference and all the rest of it in the Savi Valley Conservancy, not on Sango, but in other parts, we are from over 300,000 hectares down to maybe operating 220 240,000 hectares. We cannot expand because we've got humans on our doorstep. We probably have about easily 1,500 elephants too many. Ion Sango have a carrying capacity of 0.3 per km, which means 600 square kilometers. Say 180 call to 200. I've got 950. The damage to our forest, the damage to. I have a massive array of baobabs. The damage to Those baobabs is 80% of the damage of hammer damage by, by. By elephants. And some of them are dramatic. I mean I'm talking about trees that have a 30 meter circumference. I mean that is massive. That's bigger than the room that I'm sitting in.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah, I saw the pictures being. Obviously Dan came and visited you and I saw some of those pictures and those trees are. You have some enormous baobabs on your property.

[Robbie]

Beautiful. We've got some people who come in, spend a week just looking at baobab. And I can understand that. I mean, as you know, they're biotropes on their own, biohabitants on their own. Whatever lives in there is a little country. It's unbelievable. Beautiful stuff.

[Willie Pabst]

So Willie, in your mind, so you have too many elephants. And that is not an uncommon thought process paradigm issue challenge facing a lot of southern Africa today. The idea that we have to save the elephant is an outdated mandate from the 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s, which in which they needed to you guys even you even participated in it. Save the elephant in the mid-90s, bring 560 elephants in. But the rhetoric needs to change. The idea of save the X needs to be. Now you're living it. Sustain an ecosystem, but manage the X. Yeah.

[Robbie]

You know, here's how I see our end. When we went to CITES in Panama, what's it two years ago, or whatever it was, I stood up in front of two and a half thousand people and I said behind me, I had i4 born free. And some of those what I call criminal organizations because I really believe these guys are criminal because the way they are telling lies about the reality of what happens on the ground. And I stood up and I said, excuse me, I don't understand this. We are arguing whether we can shoot or allow shooting of 0 2.3% of our elephants. When we have a progeny of 5 or 6 or 7%. We in Southern Africa have about 150,000 elephants too many. And if I define southern Africa, then that is from the equator to Cape Town. The former president of Masisi on 23 September, New York corrected me in an interview. I ran with some and he said, no, we've got 200,000 too many. But we need to realize that these animals either find a new home or they will be culled. There are no other options. People talking about contraception and birth control and God knows whatever else have no idea how they're going to do that logistically, what they're going to destroy in the process. It's completely off the planet with these people. Unrealistic, probably sitting in Europe and North America and dreaming about a world down here that simply does not exist. And I coined the phrase of saying we two and a half thousand people should be thinking about where to find other areas in Africa where agriculture does not work. And there will be more and more areas of this nature, of this description, whilst we have drought occurring more and more through climate change. And we should take these elephants and we should translocate them there. Build new national parks in areas where humans and cattle can't, but wildlife can. Therefore, don't destroy the land to use it for human or cattle consumption and bring in our excess lines, access impala, excess goggles, whatever else there and create new worlds for our wildlife. We, the sustainable utilization model, the hunting model creates excess animals. And our other people that are against us don't want to hear it because it's no good for the story they're trying to tell their donors. But the reality is, it is true. I've got too much of just about everything we are hunting. 75% of all wildlife areas south of the equator need hunting, the income from hunting in some form to survive. If we pull hunting as an income, either major or minor, these areas will collapse in a short period of time as the cash flow will not be sufficient to sustain. So let's build new areas. But there was not one.

[Willie Pabst]

You can't. You can't build new areas today, Willy. It's. We're not living in a sea of. We're not living in a sea of habitat anymore with pockets of humanity. Living in a sea of humanity with pockets of habitat. Like you just said, you can't expand, Sango. You can't expand, save.

[Robbie]

If you look at areas, certain parts of Zimbabwe, if you look at and fly across Zimbabwe all the time, there are still huge areas where I think you can. If you look at Mozambique, there are large areas in the northern half of Mozambique where you could certainly repopulate and have some of the people earn a living, earn an income and do it in a format that enhances conservation of wildlife and habitat and if you will, puts a stop to the deterioration due to climate change. I believe there are enough areas in Africa we can do it. And frankly, with the monies that are available specifically in North America, you can translocate these elephants. I mean, I have an offer out to move 400 elephants from my place within an area of 3,000 kilometers a radius. Sorry, not an area or three days of travel. I'll pay for it. And I know how much it's going to cost. And it is achievable, it is doable. Nobody has any takers because all the existing places overpopulated. The new places will not be. I deeply believe there are those areas. Sorry.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah, there's places, but also it's a laudable. Hey, I've got 400 excess elephants. Come get them. I'll pay for them. But to move them to 400 elephants, to move them, say, to Angola from you, is prohibitively expensive, Willie.

[Robbie]

That is, I would say you're probably looking at a million and a half dollars.

[Willie Pabst]

I was going to say ten and a half million dollars.

[Robbie]

Look, for me to move about a thousand kilometers, including capture, is probably no more than $2,500. We've done these things before, 800, 900 kilometers or whatever. Look, Robbie, the question is, of course, road capabilities. I mean, you know, 3,000 kilometers sounds great. If it's all dirt tracks, then the three days.

[Willie Pabst]

If it's the road between Bulawayo and Vic Falls, at this current stage, you're in problems.

[Robbie]

Yeah, no, no, that's. You know, but, but. And even that may be a positive one compared to some of the other stuff that you might find in Angola. But remember, Angola has a problem also. I mean, you've got the landmine issue, which hasn't been resolved. So the last thing we want to do is move a couple of thousand elephants or a couple of hundred elephants and have them blown up by landmines. That can't be the purpose of. And that's a big issue. Now, I understand Botswana is moving some elephants there. Of course, they have a. A distance advantage to me, but I could go to Mozambique.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah, there you are. That's true. That's true, Willie. I want your opinion, though. So I think that a lot of people are facing. I say a lot of people, a lot of areas are facing what you're facing. And that's again, why I was talking the way that I was talking. We've seen it in the news. We've seen Mdique in the news. We've seen Kruger national park in the news. Sango is a, you know, smaller version of Kruger, let's just call it that. And in my opinion, you've got two options. You've got the option that Kruger is going, which is they want, they're going to go to a density dependent elephant model, which is elephants will self regulate themselves and mother Nature and habitat will self regulate over time, whether that's to the detriment of other species, other habitats, other vegetation. If there's enough space, based on the science, they should move around with water dependence and yada, yada, yada. That's model number one. Model number two is a management model, which is Willie is saying I need to get rid of 400 elephants on my property. Right. But you're going to have to do 400 elephants again in 10 years time.

[Robbie]

Oh, shorter than.

[Willie Pabst]

And then again, oh yeah, you're going to have to continue. There's no way. You, you're going to have to make a decision like, okay, we need 250. Like you've said, we need 250 elephants, but I have to keep it at 250.

[Robbie]

Yeah, no doubt.

[Willie Pabst]

How do you do that?

[Robbie]

Well, let me first of all answer option number one or model number one that you talk about and announce certain people who, in Kruger national park who are advocating that it's a suicidal plan. The last thing that'll die in that process are probably the lions and the hyenas just before the elephants succumb because you will destroy the entire habitat. I know of what I speak. I'm watching it every time I'm on Sangota. The damage is palpable. The damage is there. And you're doing the damage. Not for the elephants. Oh, they're destroying their own habitat, but they're destroying everything else with it. Once that ship has turned over and the keel is sticking up to turn that ship around itself, which is almost impossible. So if you allow the elephants to regulate themselves whilst we are regulating their area by offensives around it, inhabited around it, that's a dumb move. I mean, I always say Sangol is like a little country. It's like I'm playing, no blasphemy intended. I'm playing a little God here. Okay? But for better and for worse, we have put a fence around it. Not Sangho, but the South American Conservancy. Why? To allow land use on the outside as horribly inefficient and how shall I say, ecologically and agriculturally unsustainable, that is. But to allow the local population to carry on doing what they're doing, that Us doing what we are doing, exchanging protein by hunting our animals and giving them some of our protein, providing labor for them, they may be producing some produce for us, et cetera, all the rest of it. That's how it works. But it's not the preferred situation. In the olden days, these elephants would have just wandered somewhere else. They can't do that because humanity out there would be trampled to pieces. You can't do that. So we're back to where we are. We have interfered, so now we need to manage, we need to manage our own interference. We are the cause of the problem, not the elephants. We are the people who cause the issue. So there is no doubt at all that in my book we either translocate and find other homes and. Or we cull, or we only cull. And in that case, if you look at the whole of the Savi Valley Conservancy was 2,600 elephants, 130 come, come, come in every year. So unless you are taking a hit of culling at least 1000 in one go to get it to put it down, you would. Otherwise, if you were to do a compound interest reverse calculation, you would have to take out three to 400 every year. And about 25 years you'd have that number to where you would be. But in the meantime, the destruction continues. No, no, no, we've got to do. There's a nuclear attack that needs to happen and I don't know anybody, and I'm sure you and I are totally in the middle of all of this. I don't know anybody who doesn't hate the solution. But if you want to preserve what we've got for everything else, we need to take drastic actions. Why do we need to take it? We caused it.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah. It's the same situation as Modiquia. Right, so Madiquir has 1500 elephants right now.

[Robbie]

And how big are they?

[Willie Pabst]

What is the solution? 125,000 hectares acres. Sorry, hectares. Hectares. Hectares.

[Robbie]

Just like they're twice as big as we are. Okay.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

They're single.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah. And there's only a couple of solutions here. One, leave it, right? Let the elephants keep knocking down the habitat. Keep, as you say, lots of things are going to not survive. And the things that will survive, the predators, will survive. Elephants will eventually knock themselves down by a thousand because they can't feed themselves. And we'll be back to the. This equilibrium that is needed because the area is fenced or as you say, and. And you can't. So then another option is you can't, sorry. The other option is what you just said, a nuclear option, take out 800 elephants. But if you do that, you have got to stand firm on the idea of this is what we're keeping it to. You have to because if you don't, history is going to repeat itself.

[Robbie]

Very simple. It is very simple.

[Willie Pabst]

And so you can't just, as you say, you can't just like willy nilly it, you can't just say, ah, we'll just take, we'll translocate 50 this year. It's like putting, you know, a bandage over a carotid artery that is leaving, being punctured.

[Robbie]

Absolutely. I mean I would do it. Anything will help. However, it's not the solution at all. I couldn't agree with you more. And for me the story goes further. The ship will literally sink because at the end of the day nothing, you know, because everything dies off. The predators, the carnivores will grow until they will not even allow any breeding to take place. They're now more carnivores than you. So all the young impalas, the young wildebeest and whatever, they get eaten up as it goes. The elephants are dead, so the carnivores are left. What are they going to do? They're going to die off because they too have no more food. So where does this take us? I find this such a horrible solution. I mean I've come in here to conserve the name of conservation and, or bring back and conserve what used to be. But it didn't come here to fence something in and to manage the total destruction thereof. That cannot be. And it doesn't help climate change or anything like it to fight it either. Because we are now destroying habitat at a furious rate and we're destroying jobs and the ability to feed the local population at a furious rate. Right now my western neighbors are coming in, you know, the wildlife economy is finally sinking in. So why do you didn't want to come in? For the last 20 years we talked I don't know how many times about now you want to come. Well, Mr. Potts, cattle doesn't work anymore. The cattle are dying. We've got no more food. I mean normal water is normally not drinking water, but it's food growing. And we believe the wildlife economy as you've always propagated will help us and the wildlife economy as our scientists like what's this? And Brian Child and those people tell us will earn, will create four times as much value as the raising of livestock for the local communities does. But it does include somewhere between 40 to 60% international hunting income. That's part and parcel of what we're doing. Of course. We are raising too many animals and we're successful in it. We may as well keep on hunting and bring that money back to protect what we've got and to help the local population and bring them in as partners and all the rest of it. That's all from my point of view. The future that we have. But if we allow animals to go rampant and destroy themselves in the habitat, that whole model goes and the human beings will have no future. Livestock economy depends on it working.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah, yeah. Willie, what is your opinion on how we. Because the. Because let's be honest, the stumbling block to doing the things that we think we need to do. Nuclear option of removing 800 elephants would be. Would happen tomorrow if it wasn't for the very loud voice of those that are anti the activity. Right. So how do we communicate the direness of what we're facing to the politicians that are like, oh, okay, shit, yeah, even though their voices are loud? Something has to happen. I guess that's the biggest question of everything.

[Robbie]

Right. I couldn't agree with you more. And I've started a dialogue through my friends and with my friends in the cic. I've been funding the communication department there. And we are doing a lot more behind the scenes to reorganize and refund the CIC in Europe. And you know, the other countries, the 27 member countries, they're operating also within to get this message out. Now that is a more than full time job. The team that I have consists of two guys and I and a little bit of a support here or there. And if you think about you, I'm sure are fully aware of the 20,000 elephants that are supposed to move into Berlin as compliments of former President Masisi. And we were very involved in it. Masisi didn't do this on its own. We had 1.9 billion, not million, 1.9 billion clicks out of that. It changed the narrative in Europe. It eliminated all reference to trophy importation bans in the red and the Green Party manifestos in Germany. We're now working on Westminster to get those guys to rethink and do whatever and fly one or two of those people out to tango God knows what. And people are now becoming more and more aware that the elephants are really an issue. And the issue is we created that problem. We need to find a solution. Then the solution is you over there need to be accepting of either us culling and or you help us fund new areas where these animals can be translocated to areas that are currently not under any particular management and suitable for wildlife. Areas where wildlife is welcomed by the local population. Not what IFAW has done in Malawi moved 256 elephant from A to B. 10 people did. And they are raking in wonderful money from their sponsors. That to me is highway robbery and murder. But. And then i4 is a criminal organization. So there you go. So from my point of view, you've hit the nail on the head. It's the whole PR story. Now look at me. Do I care? Do I look as if I care? I will do it. I don't care the consequences. Why? The only income that I really have is hunting. The hunters do understand. They are the hunters or conservationists. There are ecologists. They're appreciators of nature to a degree that obviously the eifors and the bone trees of this world dislike. But they are the real experts in what we're trying to do here and they will support me. I won't lose a single penny worth of income. Not that that income covers Sango's cost by even a third, but be that as it may, so I will do it. I have no issue. We have a permit to cull 600 elephants. Now, if you want to c 600 elephants, I don't know whether you've ever been on a cull. That's a substantial exercise in particular if you also want to harvest the meat, which is obviously what we want, the hides and all the rest of it, because somehow this thing needs to pay for itself and some of, some of the proceeds as in meat and whatever needs to go to the local population, et cetera, et cetera. That is an exercise that isn't easy because these elephants are not going to fall over on. On a tar road where my refrigeration truck with white clad surgeons come in and carve out what is necessary. That's a complex situation and a complex operation. We have a meeting on Sangho in three weeks from now to talk through what we do and how we're going to do that.

[Willie Pabst]

That's going to make world news. I would say I'm here, but it's necessary. It's almost like the thing that has to happen. Like what else do you want us to do? Do you want everything else to die? Do you want.

[Robbie]

Give me a destination. Collapse. Give me a destination. I'll bring him something. You alpha, bring me the money. We will fly them with Tupolevs from whatever I'll build you the Runway. Minus 1500 meters. I make it two and a half thousand meters. You can, and you can fly these things in and out, whatever you want to do, but we need to do something. And in the meantime, I can't wait for the next 10 years for somebody to make up their mind that they're going to take a thousand. We need to move. We need to put a big dent into what we've got here, and that is today, not tomorrow. We've waited too long. It's actually the responsibility that I have on my shoulders to live with. We have lived with it too long and hoped that something was going to happen. We were at national parks last week and said, well, we'd like to move 400 elephants and say, well, so would we. Would you take some? He said, no, we're going to actually give them to you. And they can't. No, not at all. National parks can't take him anywhere. In Zimbabwe, we could go to Mozambique, but that would be a holistic approach where you need a new area, a new national park and all the rest of it, and you need to make sure that the local population lives with it. The government in Mozambique is mortally afraid of the human wildlife conflict, and rightly so. So, you know, but there are ways of doing this. We are fighting a war of survival with regards to our habitats, our large areas of conservation in Africa, south of the equator. And if we don't find a solution for the elephants, our habitats will collapse. It's not a question, it's only a question of when.

[Willie Pabst]

Well, Willie, it's a. It's, it's quite astute that you say, you know, the Mozambique government is deathly afraid of human wildlife conflict tied to elephants. Well, we have obviously an example right now in the news of IFAW's movement of, what was it, 250 something elephants into Ku National Park.

[Robbie]

Oh, that's the Malavi thing I referred to.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah, yeah. And you know, none of the local communities were consulted. What is your opinion? Do you want to live with these things or not?

[Robbie]

Robbie, it is grossly irresponsible. I mean, they have broken all the rules of how to move animals from A to B. We've done it, I've done, I've been involved and funded to, to a fair degree, seven translocations out of which we moved twice, 200 elephants. I know of what I speak. And, and, you know, first of all, you need to figure out how you're going to capture them, where you're going to drug them, where you're going to stage your trucks and all the rest of it. It's quite an operation to do that. How do you separate a family? Because you only capture families. You don't want a big bull in there because it just destroys everything. So that alone is an issue. Then you go to your destination. You check habitat. Not you and I, the ecologists go in there and maybe two ecologists. Then you go. With regards to security, are these animals secure? Are they safe? Are there poachers? If not, is there an anti poaching unit? And then last and definitely not least, do you go in and say, what is the effect on the local population? Or what does the local population gain from us doing this? And will they accept it? And they. They've done practically none of that. They move from A to B. The pr. Here we go. You've got another man who does something similar. You've heard. Heard of this guy Derek Joubert.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Yeah. Okay. He charges.

[Willie Pabst]

Do you want to be engaged with you guys?

[Robbie]

With the great minister.

[Willie Pabst]

You have a bunch of.

[Robbie]

Yeah, I threw him out after 100 elephants or 400. He was going to move. I was no longer going to sustain his lies in the media. That I made it in a very clear in a press release that, you know, he's off my property. Can't do that. You know, I don't mind somebody being of a different.

[Willie Pabst]

He wants your animals. He wanted your animals for a big translocation, but then through hunting under the bus. With regards to.

[Robbie]

That's exactly how the wildlife actually slandered us to a degree where we're completely unacceptable, although we agreed otherwise beforehand. But Robbie, worse. He goes to his donors, it sells these elephants move for $10,000 a pup. It cost us $2,300 to move them. So $7,700 was his profit and probably not taxable. Yep, that sounds good. It's a ripoff of your donors. You're giving them this whole entire bullshit story, which is pack of lies if you are of a different opinion. Opinion. To me that's not an issue. You and I can deal with this. But can we have this based on facts? The world of fake news just drives me absolutely insane. And I deal with facts. Political correctness. No, only if it is factually correct. I will call you a shithead if I have the facts to prove it up otherwise. Of course I would. And in your case, I definitely wouldn't anyway.

[Willie Pabst]

Well, I would prove you in that you are incorrect. With facts anyway.

[Robbie]

So, you know, there you have it. In a nutshell it's, it is the biggest challenge facing us are elephants right now. And of course everything that falls from it, the social media, the overall, the shitstorms and all the rest of it. But we will have to face them. We will have to cull 200,000 elephants to just get back to base, never mind, you know, the progeny thereafter, we don't have the space to hold them. And people who are. We used to have 10 million, we used to have 1 million. Yes, but you, you who are complaining are part of the species, namely Homo sapiens, who, who encroached on the habitat, not the hunter that causes any damage to those elephants. If it wasn't for hunting, for income and our ability to fund the protection of these animals, there'd be way less space. Way less, way less space. And Kenya, as you know, it's the prime example of where it's all gone. Bearshev. Completely the negative example of note.

[Willie Pabst]

Willie, given this conversation and to wrap things up, are you, are you, are you confident, are you positive about the future of wildlife management, wildlife conservation, hunting?

[Robbie]

Yes, absolutely.

[Willie Pabst]

Why?

[Robbie]

There are always solutions. First of all, you're talking to an optimist. I'm not a pessimist, never have been. And I'm also somebody who takes risks. My standard phrase is A, kill them with facts and with kindness and B, I'm not in this world to be loved. I'm here to succeed in my goals and objectives. My goals and objectives are normally socially and environmentally acceptable. I'm not a hard nosed capitalist. I'm a capitalist, but not a hard nosed capitalist. Days. I like to live in harmony with my neighbors because it helps my survival too. It's the thing that you do as a modern businessman. We will find solutions here. The world will wake up to what we're talking about. There are organizations out there. I mean, I've just been asked to join the ICCF, for example, the International Conservation Caucus Foundation. They're raising $500 million in one go. I mean, they are. And if I'm talking about moving a fair part of 200,000 elephants to a new era, new area. Sorry, not a new era. Maybe that is a new era on top of the area. You know that from my point of view is money that can be raised. We can do that and you know, all the other animals. How many giraffes would you like? How many lions would you like? I'll give you, I'll pick you up, give you a pack of wildlife. I might give you some of my hyenas et Cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We can do all of that. Wildlife as funded largely by sustainable hunting. Sustainable utilization is a highly successful model in Africa. And frankly, if we are not successful, the wildlife economy will fail. The wildlife economy, which lives to 40 to 60% in value creation out of international hunting, it will no longer be able to feed the population who can, in today's world, as we grow, grow forward, go forward with our drought situation, no longer feed themselves. And I mean, Namibia is going to lose 65% of its grazing area in the next 35 years. So how these people are going to live, they're going to live with the wildlife economy. If we sail in the wildlife economy, all of these people are going to die. They won't.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah. Well said. Well said. Well said, Willie. It's always a pleasure, my man. That was a quick 45 minutes and I'm sure we could speak for hours.

[Robbie]

Absolutely. And we need to. There's a fire, a red wine and a couple of cigars waiting, mate.

[Willie Pabst]

So I look forward to.

[Robbie]

We need to go.

[Willie Pabst]

I look forward.

[Robbie]

When do I see you next time?

[Willie Pabst]

I don't know.

[Robbie]

You're not going to be at the CIC thing, are you? And. And don't.

[Willie Pabst]

No. Because there's a conflict with iotr.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Willie Pabst]

Yeah. And. But we'll make a plan. I'm going to be in Africa a couple of times this year and I'll ping you. I've got your number, I believe. If I don't, I'll get it off this. Finished.

[Robbie]

No, you do. You were on WhatsApp.

[Willie Pabst]

I'll just ping you a text and say I'm coming in. Are you around?

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Willie Pabst]

And if you are, then we'll figure something out.

[Robbie]

Yeah, that. That gives me enough time to put on my camouflage and hide somewhere here. That's good. Okay, good, my mate, thank you very much.

[Willie Pabst]

Thanks, my mate. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening, as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

[Robbie]

Hey, what's up, happy people?

[Willie Pabst]

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[Robbie]

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[Willie Pabst]

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[Robbie]

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[Willie Pabst]

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[Robbie]

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[Willie Pabst]

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[Robbie]

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[Willie Pabst]

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