Roundup 148 || The WILDEST Legislative Session In Recent Memory

Summary

Episode Summary: Roundup 148 || The Wildest Legislative Session In Recent Memory

Introduction

In the 148th episode of Roundup, hosted by Blood Origins Inc., Mike Axelrod, along with guests Brittany and Robbie, delves into what they describe as the "wildest legislative session in recent memory." Released on March 19, 2025, this episode offers listeners an in-depth analysis of the tumultuous legislative landscape affecting hunting and wildlife conservation across various states. The conversation navigates through complex legislative challenges, the interplay between state commissions and lawmakers, and the critical role of education in shifting public perception about hunting and conservation.

Unprecedented Legislative Activity

The episode kicks off with Mike Axelrod expressing the foundational mission of Blood Origins: to "convey the truth about hunting" (01:03). Brittany echoes this sentiment, emphasizing that hunting encompasses much more than merely the act of killing animals. As the legislative session progresses, the trio notes an escalation in the number and intensity of bills introduced, spanning states like New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado, Washington, Oregon, California, Wyoming, and Montana.

Brittany reflects on the previous year's legislative focus, stating, "Last year legislative season wasn't that bad because we concentrated on 127 so much" (02:05). However, this year surpasses all expectations with a barrage of bills targeting various aspects of hunting regulations, wildlife management, and species protection. The discussions highlight the struggle to balance wildlife populations with human expansion, leading to contentious legislative proposals.

The Role of Wildlife Commissions vs. Legislature

A central theme of the episode revolves around the tension between wildlife commissions and legislative bodies. Brittany passionately argues against the legislature's encroachment on commission-led wildlife management, saying, "I hate bills. We're using the legislature to override the commission" (03:27). She advocates for allowing commissions, composed of wildlife experts, to make informed decisions without political interference.

Robbie adds depth to this argument by discussing how commissions can become risk-averse due to the threat of lawsuits, which stifles proactive wildlife management. This reluctance often necessitates legislative intervention, leading to what Brittany describes as "ballot box biology" — a misalignment of scientific data with political agendas.

Key Legislative Bills: AB 1038 and SB 818

The discussion delves into specific legislative measures impacting wildlife management:

1. California's AB 1038: Introduced in 2024, this bill aims to reintroduce controlled hunting of black bears using hounds. Mike Axelrod mentions, "the Bayer plan came out in 2024... lots of public comment" (05:04). Brittany explains that AB 1038 seeks to empower the California Department of Fish and Wildlife (CDFW) to manage the growing black bear population, which has surged to between 60,000 and 80,000 individuals. The bill proposes increasing the bear harvest quota from the stagnant 1,700 bears to a sustainable 16%, aligning with scientific recommendations.

2. SB 818 in El Dorado County: This bill permits the use of dogs for hazing and lethal take of mountain lions to protect livestock and human safety. Brittany highlights the urgent need for such measures in El Dorado County due to increased depredation events, including livestock losses and human attacks. She states, "there's a human death and an attack that happened" (31:03), underscoring the bill's significance in maintaining ecological balance and public safety.

Conservation Strategies and Public Education

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the necessity of educating the public to foster a better understanding of hunting's role in conservation. Brittany asserts, "At the end of the day... it all comes down to a lack of education to the general public" (11:11). The guests discuss the importance of mainstreaming positive narratives about hunting and wildlife management to counteract misconceptions perpetuated by anti-hunting groups.

Mike Axelrod emphasizes the need for strategic communication: "if you want these things to pass... what's our long term strategy?" (49:08). This involves educating hunters to confidently advocate for conservation-friendly policies and investing in media strategies that highlight the symbiotic relationship between hunting and wildlife preservation.

Challenges with Public Lands and Political Dynamics

The episode also touches upon the contentious debate surrounding public lands in the United States. Brittany expresses concern over political maneuvers to privatize public lands, which could severely impact hunting and conservation efforts. She notes, "I would love it if the Republicans championed public lands" (39:25), highlighting a perceived lack of proactive stances from major political parties in preserving these critical habitats.

Mike Axelrod adds, "Public land loss can't just happen at the pen stroke... there's too many processes and judicial levels" (42:17). The discussion underscores the complexity of public land management, involving multiple layers of legislation and judicial oversight, making swift changes nearly impossible but not impossible under sustained advocacy.

Future Strategies and Long-term Goals

Towards the episode's conclusion, the hosts deliberate on formulating effective long-term strategies to influence legislation and public opinion. They stress the importance of:

• Building Coalitions: Collaborating with like-minded organizations to amplify the conservation message.
• Strategic Campaigning: Engaging with legislators and the public through targeted campaigns and educational initiatives.
• Media Engagement: Utilizing media platforms to disseminate accurate information and counteract misinformation about hunting and conservation.

Mike Axelrod underscores the need for a concerted effort: "Have you ever had a situation where an anti hunter has used the howl platform and changed the wording... we haven't championed these things that we do every single day" (51:08). This emphasizes the necessity of a unified and proactive stance in advocacy efforts.

Conclusion

In this episode of Roundup, Blood Origins Inc. provides a comprehensive overview of the formidable legislative challenges facing hunting and wildlife conservation. Through insightful discussions, the hosts highlight the critical need for expert-led wildlife management, strategic public education, and robust advocacy to navigate the complex interplay between politics and conservation. The episode serves as a clarion call for the hunting community to unite, educate, and strategically influence legislation to ensure sustainable wildlife populations and effective conservation practices.

Notable Quotes

• Mike Axelrod: "So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting." (01:03)

• Brittany: "I hate bills. We're using the legislature to override the commission." (03:27)

• Brittany: "At the end of the day... it all comes down to a lack of education to the general public." (11:11)

• Mike Axelrod: "It's impossible to logistically implement [animal welfare policies]..." (18:20)

• Brittany: "We have a billion dollar industry... and we don't mainstream our message." (15:44)

• Mike Axelrod: "if we want these things to pass... what's our long term strategy?" (49:08)

• Brittany: "We want effective management for ecosystems, for everything, for all of wildlife." (29:25)

• Mike Axelrod: "Nothing's going to move... until you get our message out." (35:35)

References:

• Timestamps are indicated in square brackets and correspond to the transcript provided.
• Speakers are identified by their names as they appear in the transcript.

Transcript

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[Mike Axelrod]

So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Brittany]

It brings awareness to non hunting hunters that it's more than just killing animals.

[Mike Axelrod]

How do I start it?

[Brittany]

Brittany? My name.

[Mike Axelrod]

Does my hair look okay? My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Charles, my man.

[Brittany]

How you doing?

[Mike Axelrod]

Robbie, three years into this, right? Is this the craziest legislative season we've seen since you've been rocking and rolling?

[Brittany]

I don't know, I tend to forget. Is it the craziest? It's hard to remember what happened last year. La okay. Last year legislative season wasn't that bad because we concentrated on 127 so much. Yeah, but the first year was insane for sure. There was the commit, there was the bear issue at the commission. There's Sunday hunting. There was ban of lions in, in Colorado at the Senate.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

SB31. I think there was something similar in Arizona. I don't know. It's a crazy. It's a crazy year. Certainly. I don't know if it's the craziest. Maybe.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, I don't know man. I think this year has been the craziest. I think they've. We've seen bills across every state like name it. New Mexico's had something whether that's, you know, we won't call that an anti bill.

[Brittany]

Unsure.

[Mike Axelrod]

Arizona's had something. Colorado's had something. Washington state had something. Oregon's had something.

[Brittany]

California something. California has some proactive bills.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, that's some, a couple of proactive ones this year. Yeah.

[Brittany]

Wyoming's had a lot.

[Mike Axelrod]

Wyoming's had a lot.

[Brittany]

Wyoming's had a lot. Montana has a lot. Montana has some on, on, on wolves that we really haven't gotten involved in. And it's because, ah, man. So I hate bills. And, and let me explain this. I hate bills that we use the, obviously, if you're using ballot box, you know, biology, I, I hate that, but I hate bills. We're using the legislature to override the commission.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

And because it should be left up to the commission.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

That's what, that's what we always say. And that's where we stand. Like that's, that's the best model. It's not perfect. Look at Washington. It's not perfect. However, what happens when a commission becomes risk adverse because they're going to get sued or they're going to get tied up in lawsuits and then they stay away from issues because of that? I don't know what the answer is. And you know, there, there are wolf bills in Montana that are, they've tried in the commission and the commissions, they won't touch things. I mean, in California right now we have our bear management plan. It hasn't really been released. It hasn't been signed yet.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, I thought so. Let's just talk about, obviously we're going to talk about 1038 a lot today, but the Bayer plan came out in 2024. Lots of public comment. We even had a zoom with CDFW on the comments received, how they addressed them. I thought January, February, okay, it's only March, but.

[Brittany]

Well, that's typical of timelines on management plans. For one, it's done. It just hasn't been signed. From what we hear, it's on the director's desk. But you know, we, we did pry into what's in it and you know, there's a lot of drafts that have been done and frankly, they have to write it in a way where the Humane Society is not. And this is what I've been told I'm not making, I'm not just like, you know, guessing they have to write it in a way where it's not going to cause too much trouble from the Humane Society. Now that presents a real big problem with our biologists and data.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

Because they aren't just saying, here's the facts. Here's what we found. They also have to consider the politics of the whole thing and what kind of pushback they might get or lawsuits. And that's kind of what I'm getting back to in Montana and legislative bills that would override the commission. I don't like that process whatsoever. But I'm also not sure when you have a process that's so broken, you know, abuse of the Equal Access, Access to Justice act, you know, and, and the, the, the ESA takes the hit for that. Well, it's really, if you fix the eaja, we probably wouldn't be complaining about, about ESA so much.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

There's just so many moving parts and there's so many broken pieces to this whole thing and it becomes really complex because for us to come out and support a bill and then immediately get called out. Oh wait, I thought you guys were against this. Now you want to use, you know, I thought you wanted all the decisions to be at the commission. Well, you know, we can't explain what's going on in 30 seconds and that's how people work.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

It's, it's, it's a long road and it's, it's a, it's really, it's really complex and I'm not really sure how to go about some of these, some of these issues and how to, how to tackle them because I'm not getting people in a room with me. I'm not getting everybody in the room with me to, you know, for an hour to explain all this stuff and really break it down. That's the challenge.

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Brittany]

Face at the end of the day and, and nobody knows this better Than, I don't think than blood origins and howl. It all comes down to what? It all comes down to a lack of education to the general public. If we had put as much effort into educating the general public as the antis have in the last several decades, I don't think we would be here. I think the conversation would be different. I don't think we'd have to explain so much. I think wildlife management or hunting is used as a tool of that management piece. Wouldn't be, oh, we wouldn't be. People wouldn't be asking, do we really need that? Like the conversation we're probably going to get into. The conversation you had on your, on your talking head video about the bear bill in California. You are explaining that to people who for the first time will have heard that ever in their whole life. They've never been presented with that information before. They've only been presented with the mischaracterization of hunters and hunting.

[Mike Axelrod]

Whitwam, you are nailing on the head the issue and it's still happening today.

[Brittany]

Right?

[Mike Axelrod]

It's the education of our own community that then has the confidence to step out right away and go, here are the facts. Okay, I'll tell you. I was on a big WhatsApp group. I was, I am still a part of the WhatsApp group. And one of the things in the WhatsApp group that came up was about last year's wolf debacle in Wyoming. And they were like, see, hunters do not denounce terrible acts in hunting. And I said, no. Lots of us stood up at the time and said, that is not us. And the response back was, I don't see Sci Fi didn't put a press release out. None of the big ones put a press release out announcing it. And that's what the standard was. And I was like, yeah, maybe they didn't put their foot in the middle of it, but us smaller guys, we definitely stood up and put our foot in the middle of it and went, that's not right.

[Brittany]

Yeah, there was 83 of us did. 83 organizations or companies did, for sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

Can you send me that letter? I'll make a note to remind you after this podcast, but it'll be good to send them that letter. Say, here's what was sent, actually. But for decades something has happened because let's talk about know, let's rewind the clock. Thirteen years I wasn't around. I wasn't thinking about this. You weren't around, you weren't thinking about this. SB 1221 that banned Hound hunting of dog, of bears in California. What started that? Probably a hound hunting incident or somebody not understanding hound hunting or communicating hound hunting. And all of the media got behind the groundswell against it. And not a single person probably stood up and went.

[Brittany]

Well, they did. A lot of people did so. Oh, they did. A lot of people. That's good. They did stand up and say that. The problem is that where there were stand, the platform was not mainstreamed at all.

[Robbie]

Oh yeah, right.

[Brittany]

Yeah, there was a lot. The, the, the California. I don't know if they were called the same group then they might have. I just don't know. But the California Housman for Conservation for one, Bill Gaines, everybody that was involved back then, they, they rallied at the Capitol, certainly. But there was nothing on tv. There was, I don't know if there was anything on YouTube. There was certainly nothing on social media at least, you know, paying for placement of, of education, of ads, whatever it is you need to do. What was done last year at Prop 127, right? That was not done. Yeah, that was not done.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, I apologize for mischaracterizing our efforts in 2012.

[Brittany]

Well, I understand what you were saying. It's just, it's, it's. There's a lot of people standing up, there's a lot of people that have good things to say, but if, if they aren't standing on a platform where the voter or the legislators aren't hearing it, in that case it was the legislators. It doesn't matter.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

It's the mechanism to get that message to the right people. That's what's, that's what's missing. There's plenty of smart people, plenty of experts, but we haven't mainstreamed it. That's what 100% has to happen. We have a billion dollar industry. Right. You know, this or the hunting industry, and we don't mainstream our message. And we're a billion dollar industry. Is there any other industry in the world that doesn't do that? It'd be like the NBA only advertising to basketball players, not to fans or people who might be fans.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

And we have so much good stuff to talk about.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

And we don't do that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. We don't talk about. Actually, it's funny you mentioned that. I've also in the same WhatsApp group, we've been talking about animal welfare and the idea of putting animal welfare policies, regulations, laws on hunting and hunters. And there's been a bit of pushback around it. But when you stop and Think and take a step back. I wrote this three page opinion piece which pretty much says, number one, it's impossible. That's why hunting and fishing typically are exempt from animal welfare laws, policies, regulations around the world. So it's impossible to logistically implement and I'm going to get into all of it. And number two though, it's unnecessary. And it's unnecessary because what other activity in the world that deals with animals, deals with in the killing of animals, practices the way that we practice, paradoxically has a paradigm in which you want the animal and so you want to be ensure. You want to ensure that you are most effective, efficient killer that you possibly can be, which in itself indirectly is addressing animal welfare concerns tied to the kill. If you believe that animal welfare is beyond just the kill, but the way that the animal is raised and the animal is habit, so habitated somewhere, what better person to do that than hunting? Because you're doing private land work here in the United States, you're doing protection work in Africa, you are valuing those animals above and beyond anything else because you want them on the landscape and so forth and so forth. Why are there minimum calibers for Cape buffalo? Why do you have to use a.375 versus a 2:2? There's all these layers that we actually don't even, we take them for granted.

[Robbie]

Right, right.

[Mike Axelrod]

That the anti side or the non hunters actually don't even understand. We haven't again talking to this whole, like we've never championed these things that we do every single day.

[Brittany]

Yeah, that's the, that's, that's the gap we have to close and that's the space we have to live in.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep, yep.

[Brittany]

And it's, it, it really is all education when you go speak to people and you've been speaking a lot, but I know you also speak to non hunters and just the general public, people who are interested. Because, because I do the same thing thing to some level. It's, it's usually a lot more personal. I cannot think, I cannot think of a time. I know it and I know there will be times, but I cannot think of a time where that person left having a worse view of hunting. They, they left. And during the conversation there's so many times where they're like, wow, I never, I never thought about that. Or I didn't know that or simple, I had no idea you ate these things. Simple things like that.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

The conversation isn't hard. I think just initiating the conversation and having the conversation in the right places strategically is possibly the Hard part, right. The hard part is mainstreaming this.

[Mike Axelrod]

So how do we mainstream. Let's talk about specific.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

What's happening in the news right now, AB 1038 before we get on to into mainstream message, where are we in the process right now of AB 1038?

[Brittany]

So it has made it to committee and I don't know when that committee hearing will be exactly. It'll be, you know, in the next month at some time, I believe. So it'll be heard at committee in California. And that's a good thing, right, that it made it to committee.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

And then we want to get it out of committee. And right now the, the, the author, Tadwick. The.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's a lady right out of Sacramento.

[Brittany]

Yeah. But she, she represents like, like basically Northeast California Tahoe.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Brittany]

Okay. El Dorado county, everything north of there. She represents a huge, huge portion of California. And I think it's really interesting that she also represents Tahoe as well because they have all the bears there. Right. And you also have the, you also have the bear league there who is very much in opposition to this. And what the bill, you could say the bill is twofold, but it's, it's, it's. It's mostly about using hounds to haze bears to keep them out of problem areas. The other side of that is it would give the commission the option in specific areas to be able to use hounds for, for lethal take for harvest. So pre2012 it would give them the option to make that decision. And that's what I like about it. Is it, is it? You know, I don't know how the commission would. Would vote on this. I really don't. I know it would be a battle for sure. But the decisions on wildlife should be at the commission.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

Back to that. Let's get this out of the legislature and give the decision back to the commission. That's really important and I think that's important even for. Even if you are against the use of hounds. You should before having the decisions being at the expert level.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

It shouldn't be at the politicians level. They're not wildlife experts.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

It shouldn't be at the ballot level. We are not wildlife experts. It should be at the commission level who works extremely closely with the department, who are the experts. That's the data that they rely on. That's what we want. That's what we want in every state. That's where the battle should be.

[Mike Axelrod]

So in 2012 it went through the legislature. Right. Okay. Does that mean that for it to be overturned, it has to go through the legislature. Yes. Okay. That's why this is the route that's happening. It's not the ideal route because it still is, quote, unquote, ballot box biology. It's just the only route forward for this bill tied in for any work tied to black bears. It can't be the commission saying we want to do this well means nothing.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

I see it as a correction. Same thing with the ballot initiative in Colorado. Is that ballot box biology to end. To put an end date to the forced reintroduction of wolves? Well, some will say you're using the ballot box to do that. So isn't that ballot box biology? Well, it's the only path you can take to reverse that and get the decisions back to who it should be with, which in that case would be cpw. Right. And everyone, a bunch of, you know, people who don't know better, they're blaming CPW for all the wolf problems in Colorado. Like, hold on a second. In 2020, there was a vote. They have no choice.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

This is forced upon them. You must deal with this. You must bring in wolves. They're not saying, should we or should we not? They're forced to do it. So it's a correction.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, it is a correction. So, okay, so AB 1038 is in. It's in committee right now. And what we have described is it really provides flexibility to the agency, gives flexibility back to the agency that it's lost to use hounds to haze black bears and then scientifically determine whether or not they can institute a very tightly regulated hunting season with dogs. Do they mention anything about geography in there or they're going to leave that up to cdfw?

[Brittany]

Yeah, that would be up to. That would be up to cdfw. Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Brittany]

And the. Commit. The, the. The commission discussion would only be so after the black bear management plan comes out, after it's signed and, you know, it's actually made public, it's official, then the commission could consider certain areas in the state. You know, however they're going to do that, where to allow hound hunting to manage our enormous, enormous population of black bears in California, which is so somewhere between 60,000, right?

[Mike Axelrod]

60,000.

[Brittany]

Maybe. Maybe 80,000. Up to 80,000. Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Charles, do you remember what the. Because I, I obviously haven't seen the data before prior to 2012. I've seen the data out of that back beer management plan that shows harvest rates 1.2, 2.7%. I think the highest rate I saw. I could be wrong in the table is like 6%. What was the harvest rates before?

[Brittany]

So 7. The, the quota I believe was 1700 before. And they would meet the quota.

[Robbie]

Right?

[Brittany]

Oh, so they would, they would, they would meet the quota. Yeah. 1700.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

So it was a hundred percent.

[Brittany]

Yeah. And yes. No, not 100. 100. They would meet the quota.

[Mike Axelrod]

100 of the quota.

[Brittany]

Correct. And since then we've never met the quota. We struggle to, to get to a thousand bears in, taken in California now. And that's when the population estimates were at 35,000.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

So now they've, they could have doubled if it's, if it's 70,000. And the, the department says that, you know, a quota of oh, what is it, 16%, 15%, something like that could, that could be sustainable.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

Which would, which would raise that quota number way up.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

To be sustainable.

[Mike Axelrod]

1700.

[Brittany]

A thousand is way under. Is way, way under.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. It's like 16% I think is the science that says sustainable harvest.

[Brittany]

Yeah, yep. So we're nowhere near that. We're, we weren't even near that when you could use hounds. But, and, and it was asked before in previous years to raise the quota because at the time it was 35,000 bears and that it, it never got raised. So it was, it was basically at 1700. It's still at 1700.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, it's, it's a conundrum because it's the same situation that's happening all over the world with different wildlife species. In that as, as, as I pointed out in the video that we created, California is a poster child for a human dominated landscape. You've got more and more people living in California that are putting more and more pressure on the habitat. And you can't have an infinite number of anything in that habitat. And so bear numbers are going up, up, up, up, up and they're starting to just spill out of these islands and are now interacting in human landscapes now. Sure. Can you have non lethal methods and whatnot? Sure, of course you can. Absolutely. But you need to have as many tools in the toolbox and you have to have those tools otherwise problems are just going to continue to rise. That's it. There's no natural predators or bears.

[Brittany]

No.

[Mike Axelrod]

And increasing humans constantly. Logic will tell you it's just going to increase the issues.

[Brittany]

Yep. 100%. And so, you know, so we can say there's a lot of bear and we could say that's a conservation success story. Sure. The studies in California, there's multiple now, you know, studies on the deer populations and how much Bears have to do with that? And what's. What's the. I always get it wrong. Klepto paraticism. Is that what it is? Right?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep, yep. Of. Of. Of bears and mountain lions.

[Brittany]

Yeah. So they're stealing up to 75% of the kills that mountain lions make, which then forces the lions to go out and kill again. So who's. So who's suffering there?

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

The deer population. It's just this. It's a. It's a. We want effective management for ecosystems, for everything, for all of wildlife. This is a pro wildlife bill, right? For everything. Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's almost like we need a piece of content that. Or several pieces of content, just like we're about to undertake in Colorado that shows the consequence of decisions, consequences of decisions of just like, okay, this. The video we just talked about for bears. You know, the consequence of the decision in 2012 was that harvest rates went way, way, way, way down and bear populations have exploded. Multiply that with the other California decision, which is no more mountain lion hunting. Tie those two things together and what. You have several different issues with the kept apparatus that you just talked about. And it's unintended consequence because I guarantee you, nobody went. And, you know, whether it's the legislator or ballot box. Was. Was lionhunting. Ballot box.

[Brittany]

That was ballot box.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep. So I guarantee you nobody at the ballot box even considered for a second the consequence of saying yes to ban on deer populations. And in the legislature in 2012, with SB 1221, to ban the use of hounds to hunt bears, it was all.

[Brittany]

About saving the bears and saving the mountain lions. And that's what people thought that they were doing. Meanwhile, you know.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

There's still the problem. Bears get killed and they get wasted. The problem. Lions get killed and they get wasted. There's no value.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

So what I say, wasted. The meat gets completely wasted. They're just. They're killed. It's a problem bear, you know, three strikes and you're out. Whatever it is. There's all sorts of different formats they're using in, In. In California, which have led to some. To some issues. We can talk about the, the lion bill, but the. Basically, this lion bill is a pilot program for El Dorado county specifically. And in El Dorado county, they've been collecting the most data than any other county that I'm aware of on depredation events. And it has. And this, this includes, you know, livestock, horses, dogs, cats, whatever across the board. Llamas, adult horses.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

Things that people would say, oh, mountain Lions, you don't have to worry about them. Or you get llamas to protect, to protect your livestock.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

Against. Against lions. Well, they're killing, they're killing llamas now. And then you had a human death and an attack that happened on another. So two brothers, right? One died, one was attacked. And specifically in El Dorado County. That. What the public, the general public is making an outcry about this because they are, they're seeing lions in the daytime. People that have lived there for decades, they're. They're asking the, the county, you know, the board of Supervisors, what's going on and what can we do? And some people are saying, can't we just hunt mountain lions? Because they don't, you know, they don't know any better. Why am I seeing mountain lions in the daytime in my front yard? Why are they walking in front of us? They're not scared of us anymore. We've taken all the precautions that we were told to take. Fencing, lights, alarms, whatever. It's not working. We're putting our livestock away. It's not working. Lines are in the barn.

[Robbie]

Right?

[Brittany]

What, what's happening here? So that bill, that's SB818, that has not made it to committee yet, unless it did today, and I'm not aware of it, that bill would be to allow the use of dogs for hazing. Hazing. Hazing.

[Mike Axelrod]

Only in El Dorado. In El Dorado county only.

[Brittany]

Yes. Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep.

[Brittany]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

And it has to go through the full California legislature and it has to.

[Brittany]

Get a four fifths majority vote. Because it was.

[Mike Axelrod]

Because of ballot.

[Brittany]

Yes, Yep. So this takes us back to why should decisions be at the commission?

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

You see how hard it is if problems arise and if people say, wow, we really made a big mistake here. There is nobody, the governor, the president, whoever, cannot say, let's reverse this. You have to go back to the ballot to fix these things. If decisions are made at the commission and later they go, ah, you know what? That was kind of a bad decision. They can change that. They could change that decision the next day.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, right.

[Brittany]

They can learn from their mistakes. They can be adaptive. You can't do that through the ballot box. You gotta raise several, you know, probably $10 million in California to bring that back to the ballot for sure. And then with the legislative bills, you know, you gotta go through this process, which is a little bit less of a climb, but still, it's, it's a, it's, it's just not where those decisions should be, should be had, and should be made. We shouldn't have to go through those processes to, to do these things with our, with our wildlife.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, as you said, it's, it's course correcting in terms of the ballot box biology that we're advocating, that we are supporting, not that we support ballot box biology. We're now just. All we're doing is supporting the course correction back to where it should be at the commission level.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

100.

[Mike Axelrod]

Anything else hot in the news right now? I haven't heard anything out of Florida in terms of where they are with the proposal that's being put in forward in front of the commission for a black bear hunting season. But I know it's being done.

[Brittany]

Yeah, it's being done. I heard that. It's, it's, it looks good, is what I've heard.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Good.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's what we need. We need them to have learned their lesson from 2015.

[Robbie]

Right, right.

[Brittany]

And that's going to be, that's going to be a challenge, of course, but I think they're going to, I think they're going to pass that this year early. Do.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, I think. Look, man, I, you know, I know we fight all the time on like pushing back on things and it seems like when you, when you look at everything that we do, it seems like doom and gloom. But shit, there's a lot of actual little positive steps and little clawbacks all happening everywhere and.

[Brittany]

Yeah, and that's a good thing for sure. But what it's going to take. Right, is it's not the same old process as before. We have to, like you said, educate the hunters so they can be confident in stepping up and saying what they need to say and get our message. We have to spend dollars and get our message into the mainstream.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's right.

[Brittany]

We have the reasonable message. But it doesn't matter how reasonable it is or not if nobody's hearing it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right.

[Brittany]

The other thing we have so that a few months ago in December, there was a petition up at the Arizona, in Arizona at the commission to ban the use of hounds on lions there. That petition was basically not filled out correctly. So it was denied.

[Mike Axelrod]

Correct.

[Brittany]

But now I believe it has been filled out correctly and that'll be coming back in April. So we'll have a bunch looking into.

[Mike Axelrod]

A crystal ball.

[Brittany]

Predictions at the commission. It's not going to pass.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, no. And then when, then what happens?

[Brittany]

Then it could take.

[Mike Axelrod]

Follow the playbook.

[Brittany]

Yes, it could certainly follow that playbook. Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Legislature not get through the legislature. Then use Maricopa county to put the ballot initiative forward.

[Brittany]

Yep, exactly.

[Mike Axelrod]

Job security, right?

[Brittany]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Not that we want it. No.

[Brittany]

I'd like to go out of business, tell you the truth.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's awesome. Exactly.

[Brittany]

Yeah. No, I really would. Uh, I think the other big thing, and I don't know how. How much you've concentrated on this or not, is just the, you know, public lands in the United States.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's a tough one. Have you. It is a tough one. And here's, you know, there's a lot of political gesturing obviously happening right now. I think we all can agree, all hunting organizations can say we do not want to lose public access. Okay. Number one, I think we can all agree on that. Number two, I think that we all are for expanded hunting access on public grounds, and we saw some of that in the first administration. But I, I hate to say it this way, and maybe I'll get chastised a little bit about it. There's a lot of posturing and a lot of talk. I haven't seen anything like, oh, shit, they just closed that down. Unless I've been hiding under a rock.

[Brittany]

Well, a lot of. A lot of folks have been fired.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

We know that. We know that. No, we haven't. That I'm aware of. Maybe I'm not aware of it. I don't know of any parks or whatnot that have been shut down. I've seen a lot of talk about it, that it might happen.

[Mike Axelrod]

Have we seen. And look, maybe when, when it happens, it's too late. That's why people are talking about it right now.

[Brittany]

Exactly. And I think that's healthy and I think it should be talked about.

[Mike Axelrod]

100%. Yeah, 100%.

[Brittany]

I'll say this. And you don't have to get involved if you don't want to. The, the, the public land. The Houses Act. Mike Lee. Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

The one that wants to. Yeah. Put all the federal lands into the state hands in Utah.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

He's had bills, two that we were involved in that were. That were defeated. Mike Lee is a Republican. And then this past year, there was the, the, the bill that several states were suing the Supreme Court.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

Basically saying that public lands managed by the feds is unconstitutional. That got shut down. That's still a worry, though, because they are going to try to get this passed through the lower courts.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

The Supreme Court was just like, oh, we're not going to hear it. They're going to go through the lower courts and try and push this. I didn't.

[Mike Axelrod]

But you know what's going to happen there. It's just going to be like your typical shit that's happening with the Endangered Species Act. You know, one judge says yes, one judge says no, and just starts going.

[Brittany]

Up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up, up. In the vice presidential debates, JD Vance brought up the public land, this public land issue about selling off public lands for housing. And I just roll. I was like, oh my gosh, I can't believe he's, he's talking about this right now. Big mistake, big strategy mistake if you ask me. They, they ended up winning, right? It was a big strategy mistake. Here's what I'm getting, here's what I'm getting at. I would love it if the Republicans championed public lands. They're not right now. Like, what I mean by that is I'm not hearing anything from them. I'm not hearing anything from them addressing these issues. Here's our long term goals, here's what we want, here's our statement on public lands. Here's us saying we know why it's so important to you and we are going to preserve that. I'm not hearing that. So it gives people a lot of room for the imagination.

[Robbie]

Right?

[Brittany]

What does this mean? Oh, you have billionaires here. What do they care? They're not tackling the problem, they're not coming to the conversation, they're not coming to the table. That's what I don't like right now. On the other side of that, I would love it if Democrats championed the second amendment or hunting rights.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right.

[Brittany]

Because we see it from both sides. Yeah, that'd be, that would be good for all of us. So, yeah, I'm not going to say I'm not worried about it. It's certainly a healthy worry and I won't be afraid when we actually know something. If we know, wow, this is really going on. This is really going to get shut down. I will certainly not be afraid to.

[Mike Axelrod]

Say anything about that. Do we think that? Let's just take for example, the public land. Two things around public land that I think people are all talking about. Number one, loss of public land. Do we think it can't just happen at the pen stroke? No, there's too many processes in place, plus too many judicial levels of that to happen. On the other topic is the idea of resource abstraction. That can't happen at the stroke of a pen either. There's too many environmental laws, too many environmental regulations. One big one being nepa. That's a beast of beasts. That applies to every single thing that happens from a federal perspective on any. But like anything that has a federal dollar tied to it, NEPA applies.

[Brittany]

And I'm playing devil's advocate here. NEPA was supposed to apply with the wolf reintroduction in Colorado and they didn't.

[Mike Axelrod]

See, I can understand how it didn't because it was a state action.

[Brittany]

Sure. Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

And they didn't use specifically federal dollars to do it. So the world that I used to live in, in the consulting world when I came to oil spill restoration, all those, all those funds are being implemented by the state. But because they originated from the RESTORE act, which was federal federally funded monies, the state have to comply with nepa.

[Brittany]

Now was it. Is it be now what if they're putting wolves on federal lands? I think that was where that. Were they. Yeah, yeah, I believe so.

[Mike Axelrod]

Were they actually releasing them onto federal lands?

[Brittany]

I thought that was the issue. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I thought that was the issue with that.

[Mike Axelrod]

There might have been already some NEPA work that they used. They might not have had to go through a whole eia. I don't know. I don't know.

[Brittany]

Well, I bring it up because we have an action to email your legislators so depending dependent on where you live to just give your value statement on public lands. But, but also on EAJA and ESA reform, who you are as a hunter, as a whole, all of those things. But we've, we've gotten a little lambasted because we're not, you know, sounding the alarm as loud as some others are as on this public lands thing. And frankly, I'll just be honest with you because I, because I, I don't really know what's happening. I just don't.

[Mike Axelrod]

Correct.

[Brittany]

And I'm open to the conversation, you know, and we, we actually, we. I collaborated. I didn't. I, I collaborated on a post the other day and I got really political. I thought it was about an article that the CBD wrote. It was about that. But it, it turned into something else. I didn't pay as much attention as I should have. And had I looked at the whole. What I was collaborating, I was like, oh, this is going to get bad. And it did. It got really bad. And I was like, I don't want anything to do with this because it's, it's not my.

[Mike Axelrod]

Delete it.

[Brittany]

So I uncollaborated from it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Brittany]

And you know, I was just like, ah, it's just not, it's not the kind of conversation I like to have. And gosh, people have just been. I've been getting so 2020, baby.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, it's 2020. And I've, you know, we've all been there. I've been there several times. And you're just like, you didn't actually see it the way that the people were looking at it. And then when you actually took a step back and looked at it the way that they were looking at you, like shit, they're right.

[Brittany]

Yeah, it was, it got, it got pretty rough. So I, I, I stepped aside on that one. But it's just, gosh, it's a, it's a fiery, fiery topic. And, and really what a lot of it comes down to is certainly politics. Oh, I voted for this guy, so I'm going to think this way. And I voted for this guy. This guy, so I'm going to think this way, you know, and, and it's, it's upsetting. It is. You know, I hate hearing about all the people that got fired. And then some people say, well, they weren't doing anything anyways. I'm like, okay, come on. They weren't doing anything anyways.

[Robbie]

Really?

[Brittany]

Like all of them.

[Mike Axelrod]

Come on.

[Brittany]

I just, I don't buy that. Anyways, that's a big topic.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Brittany]

And it's one we need, the one we need to pay close attention to.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. I think if you can, you know, we haven't said anything about it again, purposely so, because we're almost like in a wait and see kind of mode. And this is big politics. Right. This isn't small state politics. This is the biggest politics that you can get to. And to effect a change in big politics, Ashley has a saying to say something along the lines, if you cannot, if you don't think you can win, don't say anything.

[Brittany]

That's an interesting one.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, I can't remember if it's exactly that. I don't want to. I'm not bastardizing. Like, what? She said something. It's because she's been in the policy game for a long time and it was tied to, like, don't put your effort. It's all around, like, why would you dedicate so much effort to something that you have little to no influence on? That's where it comes, that's where it goes down to. Sorry, I might have. What she said.

[Brittany]

Yeah, no, I get it. But it, it makes me think of something. So we've had a couple bills, actually. This is one of them. The, the bear bill in California is one example, but there was another in Oregon, and we struggled to get people involved because organizations said we don't, they said we don't want to waste political capital on this because there's no way it's going to win. We would like it to win, we want it to win, we want this to pass, but it's not going to. And we're not going to waste political capital on that. So I said, okay, I get that. And, and there's some concern about the, the, what will be the retaliation? Will the anti hunters then present a bill?

[Mike Axelrod]

Could they capitalize on us throwing enough?

[Brittany]

Yeah, exactly. Which I think, well, they're doing that anyways. I mean, right. I don't think we're educating them on, oh wow, Maybe, maybe we should come up with a bill that bans mountain lion. They're already thinking that and they're already going to do it if they feel like they can do it. But my question is this, okay, if we want these things to pass, if we know that this is better for wildlife, um, as a whole, then what's our long term strategy? What's our strategy over the next three years and five years to win it in five years?

[Mike Axelrod]

A hundred percent.

[Brittany]

That means we have to start now with something.

[Mike Axelrod]

A hundred percent. You're right.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's exactly right.

[Brittany]

But that doesn't happen. And that's what really drives me crazy. It's like, how do we get everybody on board to start a long term strategy so in five years we can see these things that we want?

[Mike Axelrod]

And that's why they don't want to throw in the political chits right now. For the most part, it's like we haven't got enough. We haven't had a long enough road that we've hoed to get to this point that we feel like we can win this. And so you're right. At that point you got to make the decision, okay, if this is something you do want to pass, how do we do it in 5 years time? Like who are the members of Congress, of the House and the Senate in the state that you need to start talking to right now, that you need to start educating right now, that you need to stop putting all these police pieces in place that, oh, in the elections in the next five years, you're talking to the candidates about this issue and getting them on board with the issue. Okay, we can help you. We will, we'll say yes and we'll say that and we'll, we'll get donors to your campaign because this is something that's important to us in five years. That's how it works.

[Brittany]

And what's the media strategy, you know, you know what, what would the world look like? And this is a. A really, you know what I'm saying here. But this is a really simplified approach. But what would the world's view on the use of hounds look like if, I don't know, 85 million people saw Lionheart, right. What would be. You know what I mean? Would they have learned something? I bet. I bet they would have. I bet they've seen it. Would have seen a different perspective on this whole thing. That's what we have to put out. That's what our industry has to put out. That's what the big players have to put out. Have to. Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

So, man, I am. I got two dogs that are now going to start fighting here very, very soon.

[Brittany]

I watched mine out at my feet.

[Mike Axelrod]

Last thing I wanted to ask is because I was thinking about this yesterday as I was building the AV1038 film, our video. You know, we're very willing to talk about what we do and our strategy. Like we're talking about it right now. We're talking on a podcast. Anybody? The anti hunting size. Not that I think that they ever do this and listen to us, but if they did, have you ever had a situation where an anti hunter has used the howl platform and changed the wording? They said, hey, the instruments there just change the wording. They've got it done for us.

[Brittany]

Yep. Certainly some of them do, but not enough of them do for. For me to care about it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, we could.

[Brittany]

Sometimes they tell us that they do and I'm like, you shouldn't have told me.

[Mike Axelrod]

But honestly, we could do it the. We could use theirs, you know, if. If it's built in such a way that it's not a form letter, so.

[Robbie]

Right, right.

[Brittany]

Yeah, certainly.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, Charles, always good to catch up, man. It's been a while. It's been a frenetic first 60 days of 2025. And I know your phone's going off. My phone's going off. We've been dismissing the world for an hour. Constantly deal with the thousand messages that have piled up behind us. But appreciate you, my man.

[Brittany]

Y. Thank you.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

[Charles]

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