Roundup 161 || Weekly Roundup with Ashlee Smith and CSF's Fred Bird

Summary

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The Origins Foundation Podcast: Roundup 161

Weekly Roundup with Ashlee Smith and CSF's Fred Bird
Date: October 8, 2025
Hosts: Ashlee Smith (The Origins Foundation), Fred Bird (Congressional Sportsmen’s Foundation/Congressional Sportsman’s Podcast)
Note: Robbie Kroger, usual host, was traveling in Australia during this episode.

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Episode Overview

This week’s episode is a dynamic roundup featuring Ashlee Smith and guest co-host Fred Bird from the Congressional Sportsmen’s Foundation. The pair cover a broad spectrum of pressing topics for the conservation and hunting community in the US, ranging from fall turkey seasons and the Maine turkey population explosion, to the ongoing federal government shutdown's ripple effects on conservation, to how hunters are voluntarily stepping up in Ohio amid a deer EHD crisis. They wrap with legislative watch notes and the critical role of experience-based management in today's wildlife agencies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching Up: Life Updates, Loss, and New Beginnings

[02:10 – 05:00]

• Ashlee introduces Fred and shares a personal story about losing her beloved English bulldog, Winston, due to an anaphylactic reaction after swallowing a bee.
• Ashlee welcomes a new English bulldog puppy to her home and warns listeners about the risks of bee-chasing for dogs—insight from her vet: "The vet says he sees it all the time. Happen to dogs all the time."
• Light banter about the importance of pets and transitioning the show due to usual host Robbie’s travels.

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2. Fall Hunting in New England: A Turkey Boom

[06:09 – 15:40]

• Fred shares updates from New Hampshire and Maine. Warm weather is delaying deer hunts; he's looking forward to colder mornings for whitetail and excited for Maine's lenient fall turkey regulations.
  • "Maine is generous, maybe to a fault with how many turkeys you're allowed to take in the fall. It's a five bird season. Either sex, any age class.” (Fred Bird, 06:46)
• Discussion on the politics and controversy surrounding such liberal bag limits and the rationale from the agricultural sector about turkeys as “problem animals,” though Fred pushes back.
  • “It was basically a murder mission, treating them as, as vermin, which they're not... The wild turkey ... is the number one success story [in] conservation, reintroduction.” (Fred Bird, 11:36)
• The value of leaving mature hens to preserve future turkey generations, and Fred’s culinary motivations for targeting smaller birds.
• Contrast with Mississippi, where the fall turkey season was eliminated due to population concerns, leading to debate among hunters.
  • “Fall turkey hunting is kind of controversial ... people talk about the lack of maybe the same kind of fair chase and being able to go after hens ... that's when the poults are learning survival skills.” (Ashley, 15:06)
• The importance of historic perspective: fall hunts were the original norm in North America.

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3. Federal Government Shutdown: Causes, Effects, and Conservation Impact

[16:06 – 28:04]

• Ashlee provides a concise breakdown of why the government is in shutdown (failure to pass appropriations bills) and laments the lack of real progress in Congress.
  • “They have kicked the can down the road for almost my entire adult life, it seems, and they continue to do it.” (Fred Bird, 19:13)
• Fred takes off his “CSF hat” and provides a candid, personal take on Congressional dysfunction and its tangible consequences, particularly regarding matching funds for conservation projects dependent on PR/DJ/Wallop-Breaux excise tax disbursements.
• Detailed rundown of which public lands and services are considered "essential” versus “non-essential” during a shutdown, with real-world impacts on maintenance, staff, and public access.
  • “While the national parks and national wildlife refuges keep roads open ... there is not a lot of staffing ... This has been a big, big problem in the past as far as vandalism, poaching—people know that there’s nobody there.” (Ashley, 23:33)
• Example: BLM wild horse facilities and how the shutdown stalls adoptions, creating inefficiencies and increased taxpayer costs.
• Reflection on how people react only when directly affected, citing TSA agents as a recent example, and speculation about the possible intent of such governance failures (privatization, forced layoffs).
  • “You don’t really get called to action until it personally affects you. You know, your wallet takes a hit, or something you care or love is all of a sudden inaccessible or taken away from you.” (Fred Bird, 26:37)

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4. Hunter-Led Conservation: EHD Crisis in Ohio

[28:04 – 34:06]

• Highlight of hunter initiative in Ohio, where EHD decimated local deer populations. Instead of agency-mandated closures, hunters are voluntarily reducing their take to help the herd recover.
  • "Hunters themselves are voluntarily not shooting as many deer in those counties because they've said, look, we know what needs to happen." (Ashley, 29:43)
• Fred emphasizes the growing culture of responsible, science-minded hunters working alongside agencies, contrasting entitlement vs. stewardship mindsets.
  • "That's that culture, you know, we've been working through for the last couple decades instead of this entitlement mindset. ... the science and the numbers be damned, I want my deer, I want my turkey.” (Fred Bird, 31:02)
• Discussion of challenges in real-time management responses, noting how state agency structure (commission vs. legislative management) can facilitate or hinder timely reactions to crises.
  • “Not every state agency ... have[s] the ability to close seasons in real time ... wildlife management through legislation ... is far more bureaucratic, it takes way too long.” (Fred Bird, 32:38)
• Concerns that some legislatures are moving to reclaim authority from commissions, occasionally hindering science-based management for political reasons.
  • “These decisions need to be science based ... legislators have no business as a body doing this.” (Fred Bird, 36:15)

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5. Legislative & Policy Watch: The Good, the Bad, and the Unfinished

[39:29 – 49:31]

• Despite budget inaction, progress is noted on some conservation-related bills, including an act to create the Mississippi River Basin Fishery Commission—a bipartisan move to fight invasive carp and boost native fisheries.
  • “These states have finally banded together ... All of these states have come together [in] a joint strategic plan recommending the commission be formed.” (Ashley, 41:15)
• Fred previews CSF’s proactive 2026 policy priorities:
  • Hunter education in schools
  • "No net loss" public lands access
  • College license residency fixes—a fiscal bridge for out-of-state college students so they don't lapse as hunters:

    "Our policy and our language allows for these out of staters ... to have that in state resident license fee so they can continue ... on their career ... being a sportsman or women so that they're not getting lapsed.” (Fred Bird, 44:24)

  • Ballot initiative reforms: Raising thresholds for wildlife management changes to 2/3 majorities to check the influence of outside, anti-hunting groups.

    "If it's not just a simple majority and you're really dedicated to whatever anti position you have, you get to come correct. So it may ... stop some people ... not just throwing that money around." (Fred Bird, 45:54)

• Warnings about legislative efforts in some states to increase excise taxes on firearms/ammo or mandate high insurance for hunters (notably California), which effectively price out responsible shooters/hunters but don’t address actual crime.

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6. The Gap in Agency Management: Experience Matters

[49:31 – 54:21]

• Fred describes his recent experience at Furtakers of America Trappers College—an intensive training for trappers in partnership with Purdue and Indiana DNR. Notably, many agency staff/biologists are attending because they lack real-world hunting/trapping experience.

  “What we've identified ... a lot of this new generation ... are coming to work without hands on experience. They've never hunted, they've never fished, never mind never trapped. ... And if you've never touched it, it's really hard ... to manage and why we have these prescriptive management tools.” (Fred Bird, 50:45)

• Ashlee highlights complementary programs that introduce wildlife science students to hunting and fieldwork, like NIFWITH’s Academics Afield, making sure tomorrow’s wildlife professionals have firsthand experience.
• Fred closes:

  “Maybe hunting is not for them, and that's fine. But also understanding what true conservation is ... they come out ... being labeled as conservationists when really they've been indoctrinated with this preservationist mindset." (Fred Bird, 53:24)

• Ashlee adds:

  “We're not preservationists.” (Ashley, 54:16)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Responsible Modern Hunting:

  “Responsible, conservation-minded hunters ... recognize a problem and step up. And that's what we want. That's that culture ... instead of this entitlement mindset.”
  – Fred Bird [31:02]

• On Government Dysfunction:

  “They have kicked the can down the road for almost my entire adult life, it seems ... Both sides are doing it constantly. It's ... a nonpartisan issue.”
  – Fred Bird [19:13]

• On Agency Authority and Science:

  “These decisions need to be science based ... legislators have no business as a body doing this.”
  – Fred Bird [36:15]

• On Integrating Field Skills for Biologists:

  “If you've never touched [hunting/trapping], it's really hard to have a complete holistic picture of how to manage ... our wildlife.”
  – Fred Bird [50:45]

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:10 – Ashlee's bulldog story and pet safety warning
• 06:09 – Fred’s fall hunting update; Maine's wild turkey bag limits
• 10:27 – Behind Maine’s “hidden” turkey abundance, agricultural politics
• 13:17 – Ashlee asks about selecting which turkeys to hunt (hens or toms)
• 15:40 – The controversy around fall turkey seasons in the US South
• 16:06 – US Government shutdown overview
• 18:51 – Fred's candid take on Congress and conservation funding
• 24:02 – Shutdown practical impact: parks, poaching, BLM, public access
• 28:04 – EHD in Ohio: hunter-led conservation, voluntary restraint
• 32:38 – Real-time crisis response: legislative vs. commission management
• 39:29 – Legislative wins: Mississippi River Basin Fisheries Commission
• 44:24 – New CSF priorities for upcoming state legislative sessions
• 49:31 – Agency employee training deficit; trappers college
• 53:24 – Preservationist vs. conservationist mindset in wildlife management

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Tone and Takeaways

Laid-back but frank, this episode deftly blends personal anecdotes, conservation policy, cultural shifts in hunting, and real-world management challenges. Ashlee and Fred’s rapport is collegial and sincere—full of mutual respect, humor, and a shared commitment to science-based conservation. Listeners gain both a macro and micro understanding of hunting’s evolving role in conservation, the perils of poor governance, and the importance of maintaining hunter-education pipelines—for professionals and the public alike.

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For those passionate about the future of conservation, hunting, and wildlife policy in America, this episode is a must-listen.

Transcript

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[Ashley]

For your next hunt.

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[Blood Origins Founder]

So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting. It it brings awareness to non hunters.

[Fred Bird]

That it's more than just killing animals.

[Ashley]

How do I start it?

[Tito's Vodka Announcer]

Brittany?

[Fred Bird]

My name.

[Ashley]

Does my hair look okay?

[Fred Bird]

My name is Mike Axelrod.

[Blood Origins Founder]

Start again.

[Fred Bird]

Yeah, I hated it too.

[Blood Origins Founder]

Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter.

[Ashley]

All right, I am excited today to have a guest co host with me because Robbie is back on the road once again. This time he is in Australia. Australia. Traversing the country in Australia. And he's going to be over there for I think about two and a half weeks, maybe a little bit longer. So he is he as always, everyone can follow his travels on Instagram because he posts quite frequently about where he is across the globe. So if you want to follow Robbie, Where's Waldo Sal, then you know, hop on there and see him. But anyway, I'm excited. Fred Bird back with us from the Congressional Sportsman's Foundation. Fred and I had what started out as I think A really good roundup a few months ago until I completely lost power. And Fred, being the consummate professional that he is, just, I texted and said, can you keep it going? And he said, absolutely, no problem and seamlessly kept that thing going. So thank you, Fred. I don't know if I've had the chance to adequately thank you for doing that.

[Fred Bird]

Oh, it's all good. I'm happy to be back. Thanks for the invite. Appreciate it.

[Ashley]

Our listeners are quite used to me having technological problems. So that was just another, just another blip on the radar. So. And I'm going to apologize everyone in advance. I have a brand spanking new English bulldog puppy that we picked up yesterday from Little Rock. He came out of Oklahoma and he is in the room behind me crying. So that little tiny little whale people may be hearing that is a seven and a half week old English bulldog puppy. So he will, I'm sure, be snoring under the desk soon too. We got him to replace our late. I think many people are used to hearing Winston snore under my desk. And he, he met an untimely demise after swallowing a bumblebee and getting stung. So. Oh, I know, terrible. So, yeah, if you see your pets, he always chased bumblebees. I kind of was mildly concerned about it, but not extremely concerned about it. One, I didn't think it could catch one. And it turns out that the little fella did and went down and stung him and he went into anaphylactic shock and went thankfully very, very quickly. So. But so yeah, beware guys, if you have dogs that are of those bee chasers. The vet says he sees it all the time. Happen to dogs all the time.

[Fred Bird]

So that's crazy.

[Ashley]

I know once you have an. I know you have animals. I've seen you post about them before. But once you have an English bulldog. We have a variety of pets, I think, as everybody knows. But once you have that big fat lump of potato head, you know, tromping around the house, it's kind of hard to get used to a house without one. So just filled our. Filled our English bulldog hole.

[Fred Bird]

So.

[Ashley]

Okay, Fred, what has been going on with you? I love following you on Instagram. If everyone does not already, they should go follow Fred because not only does he give great updates on the outdoors, wildlife things going on, hosts an incredible podcast for the Congressional Sportsman's Foundation. He also just has a really fun life. Great, great kids, great wife. You guys are always going on adventures posting about them and I really enjoy following you. And I also Appreciate that you put things out there that you strongly believe in and don't really care, you know, accurate. I love it, I love it, I love it. And I agree with almost all of your views. And so I really appreciate you putting things out there that some of us may not have seen. So anyway, thanks for doing that. I love following you and your Catholic faith I think is super strong and I appreciate that. So anyway, those are all the things I like about Fred and his online Persona. So, okay, other than the horrible government shutdown, which we're all we'll talk about in a second, what's, what's new with you? What's been going on? You said you're going in the woods tomorrow. What are you going to get after?

[Fred Bird]

Yeah, might do a little fall turkey hunting again. It's, it's, we got a little warm spell up here in New Hampshire and hopefully it's the last throws of summer as it, you know, tries to hold a stranglehold on the New England fall that I would like it to be. But yeah, we're going to have a precipitous drop off it looks like for the next two weeks. I think that'll be that. And so a little too warm to, to go after deer in the morning. And for me anyway, I don't like it being warm. We do have some 30s coming up, so that'll be deer mornings. But yeah, we got some pretty awesome fall seasons over in Maine and I'm only 25 minutes from my hunting grounds over there, so I can jump over there and have a quick couple hunts and fill some tags. Maine is generous, maybe to a fault with how many turkeys you're allowed to take in the fall. It's a five bird season. Either set, any age class?

[Ashley]

Yeah, no five bird season in the fall.

[Fred Bird]

In the fall. And you can take your two toms in the spring for obviously for a total of seven throughout the year.

[Ashley]

Wait, so does Maine have that many turkeys?

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[Fred Bird]

They do and you know it's I won't call it a hidden secret. Maybe back in my early NWTF days when I worked on staff there, Maine was this quiet up and coming, you know, if you will, doing the air finger quotes for the audience. We always knew it was good. It's been good for years. And with the agriculture community in Maine highlighting the, the persistence of the wild turkey and you know, really being a victim of the time they're up. Right. Farmers are up during the daylight, turkeys are up during the daylight. They see the turkeys in their business and obviously it's the turkeys doing all the depredation, not accounting for the, you know, the furbears, the deer, anything coming out after dark. So with big ag comes big money and there's political influence there and has over the years. So all that to say a handful of years ago there was an emergency legislative act to increase the bag limit of, of wild turkey in the fall specifically. And at the time you were allowed to kill all five at once, which was a terrible idea.

[Ashley]

At once. At once. So you could just like machine gun down.

[Fred Bird]

Yeah. I mean it was basically a murder mission, treating them as, as vermin, which they're not. And you know, everyone that knows the, the, the success story that is the reintroduction, the, the wild turkey, all the effort, the money, the, the, the night spent in cars that went into repopulating wild turkeys throughout the the country. It is the number one success story. Conservation, reintroduction, shortly followed by the Rocky Mountain elk. Yeah. So to have it, you know, put out there like that is kind of disrespectful in my opinion. I mean, we gotta trust our agency professionals. I don't think they would purposely put a bag limit out there that the landscape could not sustain there. It's a big state, big woods, and the turkeys are very good at what they do. It's unfortunate that our, our farmers, some of the farmers and our agency staff can't, can't seemingly work together and let do some education, some outreach and understand it's not just the turkeys that are eating your crab apple, your apple buds and you know, perceived depredation. I mean, certainly they take stuff. But you know, I, I got a buddy that owns a vineyard down here in southern New Hampshire and he likes the turkeys around because they're out there doing pest control in his vineyard.

[Ashley]

Right. You know, they're eating all the bugs.

[Fred Bird]

Exactly right. They're not taking his grapes, they're not taking the buds. And some people get it, other people don't. But here we are the end of it is they've updated that season so you get your five birds if you want them, two a day, any sex. But anyway, I'm hoping to find some fall toms. It would be, be.

[Ashley]

I was just about to ask, do you take either sex? Do you take the hens or the toms?

[Fred Bird]

Yeah, so I try not to take the mature hens. I, I will take a, a brood of this year only because I'll have certain recipes and certain ways I want to cook them that a smaller bird lends itself to a better culinary cooking experience on my end so it's just easier to deal with. I can fit a couple nice, you know, rotisserie sized turkey spatchcock on my smoker.

[Ashley]

Nice.

[Fred Bird]

And trying to spatchcock a, you know, a 14, 16 pound fall bird. And I mean you can do it, but it's, it's, it's just easier to do and I got more, more flexibility, you know, how I want to have those culinary experiences. So the young ones, I'll take a couple if they're there, I don't have a problem with that. But I'll leave those brood hens. They're obviously doing the, the yeoman's work of keeping those generations and incubating those eggs in the spring. And you know, the, if you can get into a, a bachelor group of toms or super jakes, I don't mind going after them at all. It's a lot of fun.

[Ashley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's drastically different up there than it is down here because Mississippi last year eliminated its fall turkey season. And it has been, I don't want to say quite controversial because overall I think the general hunting population of Mississippi and most of the turkey hunters I know were not opposed to that elimination of the fall season. But the group of turkey hunters who did oppose it were very, very vocal.

[Fred Bird]

Very.

[Ashley]

Outspoken, attended many, many, many commission meetings and you know, asking that it be reconsidered. But it was interesting to watch. Everybody knows who listens to this very regularly that I do not hurt hunt turkeys. It's one of the only species I don't hunt. My husband is a fanatical turkey hunter. Fanatical. So I hear about it all the time. So I follow it, I appreciate it and I eat it. So I appreciate your filled to table perspective on that. And so yeah. What, what do you think about generally? I mean there's, I feel like fall turkey hunting is, is kind of controversial and maybe, maybe it's different up there than it is down here. But you know, people talk about the lack of maybe the same kind of fair chase and being able to go after hens and you know, that's when the pulled are learning survival skills, all those things. So I'd love your perspective.

[Fred Bird]

It's a different hunt, obviously, right from spring to fall, two different experiences. And historically this is when people started hunting turkey were in the fall. Right. So again, you look at that historical perspective. Fast forward to modern day what the science dictates, what management goals are, how they're those, those two different hunts, those two different times of the year positioned. It's, it's reproduction, it's sex driven.

[Ashley]

In the spring, we will pivot for a second and talk about some of the other things that we were going to talk about. Uh, so one thing that I think everybody is really, really interested in is this government shutdown. We are now on day six of the government shutdown. And honestly, from everything that I'm reading and hearing and talking to congressional staffers, it doesn't look like there is a very quick end in sight. So what happens every year is the President's budget comes out and then I know everyone thought we passed a budget and everything would continue after the big beautiful bill was passed, but that is essentially what you have to think of as sort of the framework of the budget. That's what can go in it with the different authorization levels for the different types of, for the agencies and the different programs that are in it. And then every year they have to pass appropriations every single year to fund everything that's in the budget. So that has not been done. When they don't fund or pass a spending bill and there's a certain number of spending bills because it has to cover all of the different agencies, then the government shuts down and that's where we are. Day six. Fred, can you hear me?

[Fred Bird]

Yeah, I'm back. Sorry about that.

[Ashley]

So I launched into the government shutdown and talked about basically where we are and how we're on day six now. And you can help me walk through some of the ramifications for people in the wildlife outdoor arena and all of our friends at the Fish and Wildlife Service and Department of Interior, USGS and what they're dealing with and maybe why we're here. So the House passed its CR and they have basically said, look, we're, we're, we're out of this for now. We did our part. Senate, it's up to you guys. And the Senate is at a complete stalemate. The Republicans put forward what they thought was A really good spending plan and even a CR stop gap measure. And the Democrats have said we ain't buying it because it doesn't have the Affordable Care act or any health care. And that seems to be the biggest sticking point. I mean, obviously there are a bunch of minor ones, but is that sort of your take on it?

[Fred Bird]

So I think for this conversation, I'm gonna literally, I'm gonna take my CSF hat on off. I'm gonna take it off and just give you a private citizen Fred Bird, because, full disclosure, I work in our state's program team and manage our state houses, where we do have a federal team that's dedicated. And I wouldn't want to step on any toes there or potential relationships that they work so hard to maintain. And you know, as a nonpartisan, bipartisan organization, it' that we do maintain those. However, as private citizen Fred Berg, you know, I, I will say Congress, the, the Congress has not done their job since the early 90s. I think the last time we passed a budget, a real budget that is in the Constitution that the Congress needs to pass both chambers, I think the last time it was done was during the Clinton administration under Speaker Gingrich. They have kicked the can down the road for almost my entire adult life, it seems, and they continue to do it. These CRs seemingly do nothing. They're just a, you know, buy a few months, buy a few months, let's get to the holidays, we'll shut down for two months, come back, buy a few months, let's get to the summer, we'll shut down for. So this, this incredible cycle continues and continues. Nothing really gets done. More money's printed, more money is spent, and it's just, you know, it, it truly is a nonpartisan issue because both sides are doing it constantly. It's, and it's as a citizen, as a taxpayer, it's very frustrating. You like to see it, you like to see them follow the law, follow the Constitution, do their duty and get things done and for the good people of this country, save us some money and do the right thing and, you know, and, you know, tie conservation into it, make sure that the money, you know, that we are getting matched as we buy our licenses, as we participate in the shooting sports, as we buy ammo, archery, tackle, gas for our boats and boats alike, that this stuff continues to get funded. Conservation, the work that gets done on the ground doesn't stop because they stop. And it's irresponsible. It really is. And then you think of things like the Farm Bill that we haven't had a renewed farm bill in years because of these vcrs and things just aren't getting done. And so there's programs in there that are very beneficial to conservation, the sporting community. And again, we are, they are deficient and derelict in their, in their duties. And we, we end up being the ones that suffer amongst all the other programs that, that may, may be beneficial or you may or may not agree with. But for us in this conversation, I look at conservation, how it's delivered, and we're doing the work out here. Federal agency, private citizens, nonprofits, we, we put this burden on our back since 1937 willingly. And if those funds aren't getting matched and that money is not being distributed to the state agency so they can deliver mission on the ground and continue to perpetuate, that's a problem.

[Ashley]

It is a problem. And just so people out there know what Congress is supposed to do is they are supposed to pass every single year a budget resolution by April 15, and then they have to pass all 12 appropriation bills by September 30 for the new fiscal year. So like, and we're, we, we almost seem to be almost a year behind now. Like, it's gotten so confusing and they've gotten so late that people even become confused about which fiscal year they're talking about because they just keep passing the buck. And you're right. So since 1997, Congress has never passed all 12 bills before October 1st. They continuing, they continue this little tongue twister continue to pass continuing resolutions. And it creates so much uncertainty and confusion for the government, for the people who work for the government, and for all the people who rely on government programs. But for purposes of this podcast right now, so every agency has basically a plan for if this happens and they have to deem which employees and services are considered. And I'm starting talking to myself. I'm hearing in my, I'm hearing in my headphones, I stopped talking over me what they deemed essential versus non essential. And none of them are getting paid right now. So it's a problem for all of them. But essentially, while the national parks and national wildlife refuges keep roads open and trails and you can still visit them, memorials, open memorials, there is not a lot of stuff, virtually none actually staffing and maintaining those places during the shutdown. And this has been a big, big problem in the past as far as vandalism, poaching, I mean, people know that there's nobody there.

[Fred Bird]

Well, I mean, you just talk about the regular maintenance too, right? Of like national parks, it's gross, but, like, bathrooms aren't getting clean. Trash isn't getting taken out. I mean, they're open, like you said, and these are lands for, you know, everyone to enjoy. But then, you know, I don't, I don't get out to the west a lot, but there are maintained roads, like you said. There are closures, so who knows what conditions those are in. I know anecdotally that people have lost access during this last week because there isn't employees on the ground to, to do what they do, to monitor, to keep up with whatever they, what they have to do. And as a result, sportsmen and women are losing access just by this thing alone. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's an issue.

[Ashley]

Well, and I have been going to the west fairly frequently lately. In fact, last week we were out there filming for a documentary that we're producing on the wild horse and borough situation. Donkeys. And we had to move up a trip to go film at a BLM facility because they were potentially about to shut down, which they did. And there's hundreds and hundreds of horses there, donkeys. The staff was there that day and was that. So what happens if you shut down? And they said, well, a few of us will come in because we have to, and they'll continue to feed the horses, make sure they're taken care of. But it's closed to the public. And this is a public. One of those corrals that the public can go adopt from. And so that it's so inefficient to me because the facility has to keep running. It costs about $50,000 per horse for the federal government, every single horse that they take in. And yet this stops the adoption process. So they're coming in, they're being taken care of on the taxpayer dollar. None of them are going out, and none of them can be adopted, which helps ease the taxpayer burden. So it's just, just people don't even think about weird situations like that. So it's, it's kind of a crazy issue. And the argument on both sides, you know, we need to shrink government. Well, we do. I think we do. But yet we've gotten ourselves into the situation where we are providing services and we are providing these things that in the while, and before the government is shrunken, probably need to continue. So it's not good.

[Fred Bird]

There, There are definitely things to look at. You all, you know, you wonder. Not wonder. I, I mean, I know there are. There are more efficient ways. And again, you know, you Talk about some of the nuance of our space and things that people don't think about. You don't really get called to action until it personally affects you. You know, your wallet takes a hit or something you care or love about is all of a sudden inaccessible or taken away from you. And that's what it takes to jolt people.

[Ashley]

Well, and I think last time, wasn't it. Didn't it reach a fever pitch when the TSA agents all started calling in sick? And so travel got really, really backed up around the country, and citizens started calling their lawmakers saying, gotta get this. This is not okay. Get it fixed. So when you start to shut down, travel around the country kind of lends.

[Fred Bird]

Itself more to the privatization of some of these organizations. So.

[Ashley]

But it does. It does. And that may be a goal. You know, I mean, I know that they have said that if this continues for a long time that they will start having to do mass layoffs, and maybe that's part of the intent behind it from, you know, one side. So it's hard to know. It's just very, very disappointing and very dysfunctional.

[Fred Bird]

And certainly the time of year sucks for our community because now. Now people that depend on that excess are paying for it. And it's, you know, it's kind of unfair. You got no control over that situation at all.

[Ashley]

Well, and it's being unregulated. I mean, I know right now, you know, it's bow season here and on some of those national wildlife refuges in different places. I think it just makes it so much more likely. And we know from the past that there is just a tremendous amount of. Amount of poaching that goes on when. When this kind of situation arises. So let's talk about something that is a little bit. I think it's. It's bad news because of the topic, but it's good news because of how they're handling that. And that's how hunters in Ohio are helping respond to the EHD crisis over there. And we talked about this a little bit in our last roundup, but the fact that Ohio had proposed either limiting. Drastically limiting the limits for certain counties in Ohio because of this just, I mean, episodic, crazy EHD crisis that they're having right now. And hunters showed up and started showing up at these public meetings saying, well, you don't need to just shrink the bag limits or reduce the bag limits. We. We would prefer you just stop, you know, just pause it. And. And they haven't done that. And I think that's for a Variety of reasons. One, I mean, it's really hard for these commissions and agen to suddenly just close down a season this close to season opening. I mean, I know we have regulations in different states that say if you're going to pass a rule or a regulation change, it has to be done within so many months of the hunting season to give people notice and time to prepare. So that hasn't happened. They did put a reduction in some of the bag limits, but what has happened is that the hunters themselves, themselves are voluntarily not shooting as many deer in those counties because they've said, look, we know what needs to happen. And the biologists have told us what needs to happen. And so we're just going to take it upon ourselves to do it. So like for inter, for example, in Washington county, the 2024 count was 59, including 32 antler, 27 antlerless. And this year so far, nine deer checked, six antlered and three antlerless. So that's a drastic reduction. Same thing in Athens county, same thing in Meigs County. And I think that's pretty cool that hunters and you know this, I mean, hunters are the best conservationists. They know there's a problem, they know there's a crisis. There seems to be a little bit of a slow management response. And, and that may not be due to the fault of the agency. Uh, we haven't looked deeply into that, but hunters are saying, you know what, we're going to step in and help with this.

[Fred Bird]

So, so a couple things there that come to mind, right. And right before the gremlins got to me, when I dropped out, you were talking turkey and I was getting ready to tee up and remark that. And then the same thing here that responsible, conservation minded minded hunters, sportsmen and women will recognize a problem do and then step up. And that's what we want. That's that culture, you know, we've been working through for the last couple decades instead of this entitlement mindset. Well, I've always done it, my granddad always did it. So I'm doing it. You know, the, the science and the numbers be damned. I want my deer, I want my turkey, you know, blah, blah.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Fred Bird]

You know, you start talking about, you know, removing fall seasons for areas in the Gulf that have declining turkey populations. That's a responsible thing to do. Turkey hunters should want to step up and be like, yeah, yeah, we can do this to help solve the problem, mitigate population decline. We can work in tandem with the state agency as a constituency and make sure we have something going forward that's, that's smart business. Same thing here in Ohio. We just highlighted this out west. I want to say it was double check Oregon maybe or let me double check here, Washington, Easton, Washington doing the same thing. So shutting down, but hunters getting on board being like, listen, but we don't want to perpetuate this. We want to report sick animals that we're seeing out there. We want to provide biological data to the state agencies so that you can get a handle on this for, I mean as much control as you possibly have over it. Right. I mean there's only so much I think that we can do and there's still a lot out there with these neuro diseases that I just. The people are being honest, just don't know. There's two very passionate size that said, minus fact, minus fact. Well, they both can't be true at the time. Same. Same time. Right. So you got to keep moving forward. You know, interesting, you said earlier in this topic about state agencies being able to react in real time. Not the audience may, may or may not know this. Not every state agency, every dnr, Fish and wildlife, whatever they're called in your state have the ability to close seasons in real time because of how they're set up. In New Hampshire and I believe in Mississippi, you guys have a commission or a board. They're the ones that make the rules. They're the ones that do the rule setting, you know, season setting, all that, and they have more control over emergency shutdowns versus the alternative, which is wildlife management through legislation, which is in my opinion a terrible way to go. And it's far more bureaucratic, it takes way too long and for instances like this, you cannot react in real time. So the way I think, you know, to allow for this is really converting a lot of these states that don't have the ability to do this. Take it from the legislature who really don't need to be having that control because a lot of them just don't know. And ceding that to the state agencies, to these professionals who deal with this stuff every day and giving them that flexibility to open and control seasons. You see it out west with predators, you see it with certain wildlife corridors, if quotas are met or they know a certain population of undulates are having a hard time, they can close those areas and make sure we have something for the next seasons to come. And that's the responsible way to do it, right?

[Ashley]

Absolutely. The problem is the legislatures are the ones who would have to cede their power and give it back to the agency and the commissions and it's this constant back and forth, back and forth over who's making better or worse decisions. And, and it a lot of times it depends on the state whether they have a really good, strong commission that's making conservation minded decisions or whether they don't. Some of them, as you and I both know, have inside personal interests. They get involved or they're anti hunting and then that's a really big problem. We've seen that a lot in some of those specific northwestern states. And then you also have issues where legislatures will take certain issues away and say, all right, you get to make decisions on all of this, but we're gonna decide this. And it's just kind of become this crazy. Every state's totally different and every state has problems. And what alarms me is the fact that we have seen this trend, I think going the opposite direction from what you just stated. Like this past year where different legislatures and saw this a lot up in your neck of the woods started saying, you know what, especially with regard to things like CWD and some of the different diseases and managing. It seems to crop up a lot in deer hearing, a lot in deer. We're going to take the authority away from you. It also crops up in a lot with Beatty and with, you know, artificially feeding all the species. All the species. It's so controversial. The legislatures are saying we're going to take away your ability to manage that according to science and your expertise and we are going to set the rules. Or they just flat out say you cannot make any regulation regarding this or prohibiting this or even restricting it in any way. And that is a little bit disheartening to me. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

[Fred Bird]

Yeah, no, these, these decisions need to be science based. And you know, no offense to our legislators and their ability to do their jobs well. It should be left with the professionals that you know from the executive side of things, they hire their directors or their commissioners and then it's their prerogative to go out and do job searches and hire a staff underneath them that are vetted, that are have gone through the rigors of secondary education post undergrad and come and bring a skill set to manage these resources for the betterment of everybody, not just the air finger, quote, consumptive user. Right. So no offense again, but legislators have no business as a body doing this. It's not in their purview and they stand, you know, we, you know, you, our organization especially because we work with our legislative Sportsman's caucuses so closely on, on advocacy, on advising them and educating them on, on good policy, on bad policy. You know, we can serve as a resource for that. But, you know, I would, I would tell the constituencies and given states and as well as, you know, legislators like, you don't really want this responsibility. You shouldn't want this responsible. You should want to seed this to your professionals and let them do this one. It's a good buck to pass, and it's not something they're on the hook for. Right. Like, if people are paying attention. Well, I'm not going to vote for you because you screwed up my deer season. I mean, kick it over to the agency, let them do it. But then the agency falls back on that science. You know, there's, there's so many moving parts in all this. You talk about the baiting and you know, that's geographical. Certain parts of the country, again, there's that huge tradition. We can't put piles of corn out up here. It's not, it's not a thing. We have certain seasons and it's just, it's never been part of the culture. But I understand in different parts of the country, it is. And so that is, that's weird for them not to be able to debate, not to be able to do that. But then, you know, you get, you bring this conversation full circle, the communicable diseases, and maybe not even, you know, take the deer stuff, the CWD and blue tongue out of it, and you look at turkeys and avian pox and, you know, all these other communicable diseases turkeys get or, you know, avian flu potentially in wild, wild flocks of waterfowl, if they're congregating together over, over a food source that is artificially there, we'll just take the natural stuff. But if that, you're putting artificial stuff and making them get together, that's a problem. And the, and that needs to be sussed out and dictated by the agency. I can't, as a private citizen go out there and armchair biologists, corporate quarterback. That's not the way to do it either. We can voice our concerns, but the professionals need to take that into account and say, okay, what is, what does the population of, of our sportsmen and women want? What is the, the, the, the, the social economy of this? And what does the science say and how do we balance it? Because that is a balancing act for those folks. They have to take into consideration the folks that are buying the tags that are, that are contributing to this and that are using it as well as the science. You know, turkeys are a great example of that, but I think I, I think I brought it home there.

[Ashley]

Yeah, no, no, no. I think turkeys are a really good example. And I would add with regard to the government shutdown that while they're not passing any spending bills, they are actually moving other pieces of legislation. And that's good news. And some of them are conservation pieces of legislation. I got a call a couple days ago that the an act to form the Mississippi River Basin Fishery Commission has been set on the calendar for hearing or October 21st. And this is fantastic news because it's actually a bipartisan bill. The sponsor list is completely bipartisan. We have Republicans and Democrats signed up for this bill. And what this would do would create a. An inter jurisdictional inland fisheries commission similar to that of the Great Lakes Commission. Great Lakes Commission was formed back in the 50s by treaty to fight the sea lamprey. And similarly, the Mississippi river basin has been facing a number of aquatic invasive species. I mean 10 or 12 really, really bad ones. I mean hundreds, you know, more if you get down into the organisms and things like that and talk about plant species, this would cover everything. But the number one threat that they have faced is the invasive carp. Used to call them agent carp, we call them invasive carp now. But they have just absolutely infiltrated so many waterways up and down the Mississippi river and throughout the watershed. So these states have finally banded together. It's just hard to organize. 28 states. Some of the other commissions, the Atlantic states, the Gulf states, are only made up of five states or seven states or eight states. And so trying to get 28 states to agree on anything, especially from a scientific basis regarding a certain class of species is difficult. And that is actually what's happened here. All of these states have come together. 28 states signed off on a joint strategic plan recommending that the commission be formed. And it's now actually hopefully going to end up passing. It's got a long way to the finish line. But it has been separate hearing on the House committee calendar. There are sponsors both in the Senate and the House. And what this would do would give funding and congressional recognition to the states and a grant program with some pass through funding through the Department of Interior to fund their interjurisdictional species programs, not only to combat those aquatic invasive species like carp, but also to fund the native species work which is so important and doesn't get talked about enough. The association of Sports Fish Sport ASA Association Sport Fish, American Sport Fish Association. I was. I'm having a rough time today. I'm going to blame it on no sleep from that puppy. They are one of the biggest advocates. There's a huge coalition of folks on this pushing, trying to push this through. But we've seen a little bit of a very, very, very steady incline in the funding that's going toward fighting invasive species. But we have seen a drastic decline on the funding that is being appropriated and put forth to take care of our native fish populations and our native species. And these things like carp and these, you know, water hyacinths and giant salvinia and all these things get in there and just decimate our waterways and destroy our native species. So I think this is an exciting development and I'm just glad to hear they're doing something up there to say they can't pass the spinning bill, but they're going to pass some other stuff.

[Fred Bird]

Yeah, I mean, well, as you hear some people say, maybe it's not such a terrible thing in some regards. Silver lining. They can't screw anything up. But, yeah, it's. It's interesting that, you know, the members are, are still in. They're kind of exempt from this government shutdown, apparently. And yeah, for. For our community, there are some things getting teed up and still some progress. So, again, so silver lining, if you want to find one for us, that, that's there and, you know, I guess we'll take it.

[Ashley]

Yeah. Is there anything as we get ready to wrap up, we're gonna. This is a little shorter today, but anything that you guys are watching coming down the pipeline that we should keep our eyes open? I know we're kind of inching closer toward the state sessions going back in, and a lot of them start back in January and so they start working on bills in the fall season pretty heavily. Is there anything you're excited about or.

[Fred Bird]

Yeah, I mean, so last year, as an organization and a team, we rolled out priority policy for CSF. These are, you know, a list of 10 items starting last year that we wanted to come out proactively, advance with our Legislative Sportsman's Caucus leadership, get those dropped and see how far they can go. Some of them we got over the finish line pretty quick and we had a really good success rate with that. So again, looking forward to doing that in 2026. Some of those items being hunter ed in the schools, no net loss policy. Let's see, reimbursement for free and discounted licenses is a big one. Where states don't have that college licenses so students that are out of State from an R3 perspective, this is a demo age demo that we typically lose people bridge that gap between being in the nest, mom and dad, foot in the bill or at least helping you out monetarily and then being out on your own. So you're eating ramen, you're paying for your books, you're paying for gas. Some of those discretionary items to include a hunting and fishing license when you're an out of state resident, they get cut. So our policy and our language allows for these out of staters who are basically becoming a resident for four years to have that in state resident license fee so they can continue contributing and continue on their, you know, career if you will of being a sportsman or women so that they're not getting laps, they're not losing those people and it's, it's incredibly important.

[Ashley]

So those are just fantastic. I had not heard about that, but every station pass that.

[Fred Bird]

Yeah. And there's, there's a, there's a handful of states that, that have it and we're working towards more some. Another one that's big for me because one of the states I manage in Maine does have ballot referendums and Colorado is another one that we saw last year with Prop 127.

[Ashley]

Oh yeah.

[Fred Bird]

Uh, we are looking to proactively advance. These are state constitution amendments in these states where it's applicable to up the threshold. So in some states it's just a simple majority, 50 plus 1 to get these ballot referendums passed in the body of the legislature and then get to the ballot and then a simple majority of the constituency passes it. We want to see before it even gets to the ballot issues of wildlife management specifically. So this isn't for all referenda, it's just for wildlife management. You got to hit a 2/3 threshold. So one, you're, you're, you're either passionate about it, you're going to work to get it and two, this also serves as a, as a deterrent because you have these giant conglomerates like HSUS and those people that are underneath them that just funnel money and they have these super deep pockets, they just throw cash all around the country at whatever they can get to stick. Well now it's going to cost you more because if it's not just a simple majority and you're really dedicated to whatever anti position you have, you get to come correct. So it may, it may stop some people from you know, being, they may be more choosy in the fights they go for not just Throwing that money around and we want that threshold to move up and really you know press press people to be you know committed to your idea and see what you're going to do or you know this at least is more than just 50 plus one. And you know 24 states that have about referendum that's that's important to get Utah passed this a couple years ago I believe so their first example that it's that it's out there. I think Florida wasn't from us but I think it just changed. I don't remember when it happened but after the. The. The right to hunt fish went through. I believe that was the last election cycle for a 50 plus one. And now they I think in totality not just on wildlife issues that they have gone to a 2/3. So timing was good for us on the right the hunt and fish there in, in Florida. But yeah, so those are some ideas some policy we're looking forward things to look out for. You know we kind of hit on it earlier. Attacks on commissions and boards where they have that authority. You know putting obstructionists and anti hunters on these boards and and just wreaking havoc from within. We see a lot in the northeast and then out west to these additional excise taxes that are being put out there on ammo and firearms in addition to the 10 to 11% manufacturers level tax that goes to PR and these are funding in state funds for gun violence, domestic violence. So they're putting that on the back.

[Ashley]

Of oh it states like California and some of those.

[Fred Bird]

Yeah, exactly right. So you're going from baked in the cake 11% and now you're adding another 11% on it. And so you're pricing people out and then unfairly putting the burden on a very small constituency just because we we have it. And and you know quite frankly the firearms and ammunition we're using are not contributing to the crime that's being perpetrated. But they want us that.

[Ashley]

Well they're also doing things like making exorbitantly high insurance policies a requirement for hunting. They're doing everything they can without passing specific gun laws because those keep failing to make it so prohibitive to own and operate a firearm even in the hunting context that people are just giving up. It's almost like fiscal harassment.

[Fred Bird]

No, I mean that's exactly what it is and they're. They're going to take their swipes or wherever they can at it. I was pleased this last go around to not see too much stuff attacking trapping and fur trade. I mean there were still some But I expect to see that come back. It's.

[Ashley]

Did I just see that you went and maybe learned how to do some. Did you attend some sort of fur.

[Fred Bird]

Yeah, so I, so I've been trapping for 20 years and I'm self taught and you know, read a lot of books, watch a lot of YouTube videos. But I had the opportunity to work with our partners at Furtakers of America. They put on the fur Takers of America Trappers College. This is in conjunction with Purdue University, the Indiana DNR and for Takers of America. And what was really cool is about 50 or so students of all varying levels of trapping experience, from the novice to the most experienced in the five groups. I was with a few other fellas that we were put into the experience category, the number five group out of five. And I got to train with some of the best trappers in the world, most professional trappers. And I learned so much. I, I think I learned more in a week than I had in the last 20 years. And I cannot wait for November 1st, excuse me, here in southern New Hampshire, start running my lines. My son really wants to get into it, so I am pretty fired up for trapping this year. But yeah, I mean, really cool.

[Ashley]

How often did they offer that?

[Fred Bird]

Every year. And I would, I would invite people to go check out the college. It's, you know, a lot, there was a lot of agency folks that were there, a lot of agency wild wildlife officers, conservation officers. I was, I just happened to be there. There were some just regular folks that just buy their license and just wanted to learn more. But a lot of it was, you know, staff, agency staff, biologists. And which is great because what we've identified, I think you and I have talked about this in the past, is that a lot of this new generation, this new crop of employees and the state agencies are coming to work without hands on experience. They've never hunted, they've never fished, never mind never trapped. And they're the ones that are contributing to the management. And if you've never touched it, it's really hard to have a complete holistic picture of how to manage and why we have these prescriptive management tools in trapping and hunting. Why that's a part of the American System of Wildlife Management There, one of the seven tenets, the North America model. See, I did it too. There's just too many acronyms going on. But all that to say it was encouraging to see these young agency staff there learning and then coming away excited and wow, I never knew and this is so important. So great. It's like, man, can we get, like, all 50 state agencies to send a couple people every year to this program? It'd be wild. Impressive.

[Ashley]

You hit the nail on the head. So many of these science and biology and wildlife biology majors are graduating and have never shot a gun, never been on the field, never hunted. That's why NIFwith started this grant program called Academics Left Field. And they worked with, I know, multiple southern states. I hope this program is still going. But they would go into colleges and universities and partner with both the wildlife agencies in the state and certain colleges, and they would go into and recruit from the science clubs, from science majors and science clubs within these universities, and they would operate these programs where they would take them on a training program and taught these students how to hunt, gun safety, took them through the class, you know, took them to ranges, took them out in the field all the way from the beginning to the end and field dressing so that they ended up with these science majors from these universities that had any sort of hunting experience. It kind of feeds into the R3 type of programs, but it's different because it's specifically looking to the future toward our wildlife refuge managers because they're the ones overseeing the hunting, and they end up in the leadership of these agencies making the rules and making the regulations.

[Fred Bird]

So I don't necessarily want them all to go buy a license and join us in the field, just in the. I say that, you know, kind of jokingly, but I do want them to be vested and know enough that what we are a part. How we are a part of, as a. As a community of sportsmen and women, the value we bring to it, literally the dollars that we bring to it, but also what we do on the ground and our part in it, that they at least appreciate that maybe. Maybe hunting is not for them, and that's fine. But also understanding what true conservation is, because they come out of higher education being labeled as conservationists when really they've been indoctrinated with this preservationist mindset, and they bring that forward, and they want to, you know, put everything in a glass bulb and save it and, you know, treat it like Shamu and anything else in a zoo. And it's like, no, no, no, no, That's. That's not. We don't do that here.

[Ashley]

We're not preservationists.

[Fred Bird]

That's right.

[Ashley]

We're.

[Fred Bird]

That's exactly.

[Ashley]

Okay, well, on that end, I know I've kept you longer than you needed to. All good be on here. But I appreciate your time today. And thank you for waiting through our technological issues. I can literally hear myself talking over myself right now. But you've been fantastic. I'm so glad to see you. And I'm really looking forward to seeing all of your trapping adventures and with your son, especially through the fall. So please post a lot of pictures.

[Fred Bird]

Oh, I. I will do it. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity to come back on the program. Give Robbie my best, and we'll. We'll see you down the line. Thanks so much, Ashley.

[Ashley]

Sounds good. Thanks.

[Blood Origins Founder]

All right, well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.