The Origins Foundation Podcast: Roundup 163

Roundup with Ashlee and special guest host David Willms
Date: November 19, 2025

Episode Overview

This Roundup episode, hosted by Ashlee with guest host David Willms—a legal scholar, attorney, Assistant Vice President of Public Lands at the National Wildlife Federation, and host of "Your Mountain" podcast—offers a lively and in-depth discussion of current issues affecting the hunting and conservation community. With the regular host Robbie away traveling in South Africa, Ashlee and David cover a wide-ranging set of topics from hunting successes, policy debates on hunting tag transfers, bison classification, tribal hunting rights, and Ohio’s potential constitutional amendment for hunting and fishing rights.
The episode is rich in both expert insight and personal stories, with a tone that is conversational, analytical, and grounded in conservation values.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Catching Up: David’s Hunting Season (04:08–13:24)

• David’s Success: David shares his hunting achievements this year, including a memorable pronghorn hunt with his son and harvesting his best mule deer yet, as well as a great bull elk.
  • “I have this really weird superstition that how my dove season goes is going to set the stage for the rest of my hunting season. And I had a phenomenal dove opener...this is my year, and it’s just turned out great.” —David (04:39)
• Chronic Wasting Disease (CWD): For the first time, David had a deer tested for CWD, emphasizing the importance of data collection for wildlife management.
  • “I wanted to know, which lymph nodes do I take? So in the future if I want to do it myself...biologists really want more data and want to know what the prevalence rates are in certain areas.” —David (07:12)
• Community Connections: Anecdote about his deer photo circulating at local Game & Fish offices, highlighting the tight-knit nature of the hunting community in Wyoming.

2. Wyoming Landowner Tag Transfer Debate (13:42–25:41)

• Background: Current Wyoming law allows landowners with 160+ acres to obtain up to two landowner hunting licenses per species from the limited quota.
  • “It’s pretty landowner friendly...the number of hours they need to be out there.” —David (15:28)
• Proposed Change: New proposal would allow these tags to be legally transferred or sold, sparking substantial controversy among the in-state hunting community.
• Concerns:
  • Reduction in tags available for general public draw if landowner tags are sold (e.g., “If landowners...sell those tags, licenses available for the general population goes down...,” David at 16:01).
  • Fear of “tag farming” by dividing properties or corporations exploiting the system (25:28).
• Broader Impacts & Context: Lessons drawn from New Mexico, Nevada, and Colorado, where high-value tags have been sold for large sums, sometimes disproportionately benefiting non-residents.
• Process & Politics: The bill narrowly passed out of the Agriculture Committee and faces a contentious path through a short (20-day) legislative budget session.
  • “It’s...editorializing a little bit. This is the type of thing...I hate. I think landowners and hunters are, should be natural allies...this...puts landowners and hunters at deep, deep odds.” —David (20:50)
• Recommended Approach: Both hosts advocate for a “task force” or extended stakeholder process to find balance rather than rushing divisive legislation.

3. Colorado’s Bison: Dual Classification & Its Significance (25:49–36:09)

• Policy Shift: Colorado now formally classifies bison as both livestock and wildlife. Ashlee and David discuss why legal definitions matter for management, jurisdiction, and hunting.
  • “In the grand scheme of animal classifications, it’s pretty important whether an animal...is classified as livestock or wildlife. It determines who has jurisdiction...” —Ashlee (26:03)
  • David explains the livestock classification is often tied to concerns about disease (e.g., brucellosis), fence requirements, and management conflicts.
• Forward-Planning: Colorado established hunting license fees for bison though it does not yet have an open season, setting up infrastructure for future management as wild herds expand from Utah’s Book Cliffs region.
  • “It’s smart to prep for the future because I think there’s going to be increasing pressure over time to establish more free-ranging bison herds...” —David (34:07)
• Sociopolitical Tensions: Noted potential “urban-rural” divides on the issue and suspicion from livestock producers versus excitement from urban dwellers.
• Tribal Lands: Discussion touches on tribal sovereignty and that reintroduced bison on tribal land are usually managed as wildlife by the tribes themselves.

4. Oklahoma Tribal Hunting Rights Showdown (36:09–52:09)

• Major Dispute: Legal and political clash between Oklahoma’s Attorney General (Drummond) and Governor (Stitt) regarding whether tribal members must obtain state hunting licenses when hunting on reservation land.
  • “On tribal land. On reservation land, tribes have primacy over their, their own wildlife.” —David (39:44)
  • “Tribes have always had the right to regulate their own nations. They make their own hunting laws, they make their own fishing laws.” —Ashlee (43:15)
• Nuanced Legal Landscape: The conflict stems from distinctions between “trust lands,” reservation boundaries, and interpretation of Supreme Court case law (esp. McGirt v. Oklahoma).
  • The Governor’s office asserts the need for state licenses except on federal trust lands, while tribes argue for broader sovereignty under treaties.
• Complexity & Stakes:
  • Stakes are high for both tribal sovereignty and state management authority; could set precedents for other states.
  • Both hosts note the subject’s legal complexity and reserve final opinions, committing to follow up with Oklahoma parties for deeper insight.
    • “It sounds far more complex than we’ve been able to weigh into at all.” —David (51:20)

5. The Right to Hunt & Fish—Ohio’s Constitutional Amendment (52:09–58:34)

• Ohio’s SJR 8: A legislatively referred initiative to enshrine a constitutional right to hunt and fish is progressing toward the 2026 ballot.
  • “I am a firm, firm, like, ardent believer that all 50 states should have this.” —David (54:35)
• National Trends: Currently about half of U.S. states have such constitutional rights, with recent success in Florida (2024).
  • Notable: Vermont included this right as early as 1777.
• Limitations & Protections: The amendment would not bar necessary biological regulations, but could defend against hunting bans based on political or social—rather than scientific—grounds.
  • “It ensures that you will always have... some basic right to get out there and secure your own food source for your family.” —Ashlee (56:54)
  • “If a state... tried to ban hunting for non biological reasons...you could have a lot of success with that kind of a constitutional amendment.” —David (57:17)
• Prediction: Both hosts endorse and expect broad public support; intent is described as both defensive and principled.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the complexity of wildlife law and sovereignty:
  • “It’s super complicated. Super complicated.” —Ashlee (46:53)
  • “There’s going to be some nuance here...so much more to it. Just the tip of the iceberg.” —David (51:53)
• On hunting’s meaning:
  • “At the end of the day, when we had one that gave us a nice shot, I’m like, all right, I’ll take it. I’ve got him with me. I gotta do it. So I did.” —David (05:46)
• On managing controversial wildlife policies:
  • “This is an example of something where you don’t jam something through...this is the type of thing that is so consequential...that some kind of a task force to address the landowner license system...is worth having a real conversation.” —David (21:49)
• On the value of rights amendments:
  • “That’s the perfect time to put an amendment like that in place. Like, you don’t want to have that fight when it, when things are at risk.” —David (55:01)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• David’s 2024 hunting highlights: 04:08–13:24
• Wyoming landowner tag transfer debate: 13:42–25:41
• Colorado bison: wildlife & livestock classification: 25:49–36:09
• Oklahoma tribal hunting rights confrontation: 36:09–52:09
• Ohio constitutional right to hunt & fish: 52:09–58:34

Conclusion & Tone

This episode is a lively, informative journey through the intersections of hunting, policy, and conservation law. Ashlee and David balance lighthearted anecdotes with deep dives into contentious and nuanced public policy issues, urging thoughtful, collaborative approaches in a rapidly changing landscape. Listeners are left with a deeper appreciation for the legal and cultural dynamics shaping modern conservation and hunting.

“Do what’s right to convey the truth around hunting.” —Ashlee (58:56)