Roundup 164 - NFWS's Wildlife Refuge Review, Colorado Wolves Showdown W/The Feds, And More!

Summary

The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode: Roundup 164 - NFWS's Wildlife Refuge Review, Colorado Wolves Showdown W/The Feds, And More!

Date: January 7, 2026
Host(s): The Origins Foundation (Robbie, Ashley)

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Episode Overview

This first Roundup of 2026 delivers a fast-paced, detailed conversation between the hosts, centering on major conservation developments, public land policy, and topical debates in hunting and wildlife management. Main themes include:

• A looming nationwide review of the National Wildlife Refuge System and fears about its future,
• A federal versus state clash over Colorado's wolf reintroduction,
• The ongoing debate over the terminology and ethics in hunting (harvest vs. kill),
• Updates on documentary projects, film festivals, and current events in hunting/conservation,
• Pressing listener questions about Missouri's CWD (Chronic Wasting Disease) management policy changes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Opening & Podcast Reflections

• The hosts exchange holiday stories and emphasize the importance of championing hunter narratives and authenticity in conservation conversations.
• Robbie and Ashley reminisce about memorable past podcast episodes, highlighting #5 with Kenyan activist Mimo Somay (11:03), which forcibly addressed misconceptions about American hunting in Africa:
  • “She had all these questions, and I was like, I cannot answer these... But I have a podcast… I'll answer every single question you have, honestly.” — Robbie [11:08]

2. Origins Foundation Project & Film Festival Updates

• Origins’ elephant documentary (A Fine Balance) is officially selected for Nairobi’s Pridelands Film Festival (13:29), with hopes of capturing both the audience’s reaction and Q&A in Nairobi.
• Tides of Change, a sea turtle film, wins an award and is pending selection at the Atlanta Short Film Documentary Festival (15:35), public release hoped for June 2026.
• Ongoing bear documentary work in Mississippi (16:32).
• Notable Quote:
  • “People’s stories, people's lives changing, people's attitudes changing.” — Robbie on Tides of Change’s focus [16:08]

3. Florida Black Bear Hunt—Controversy and Outcomes

• Only 52 bears harvested out of a quota of 172, after a long hiatus; significant funds raised for bear conservation (17:14 – 22:58).
  • Comparison to the 2015 season, in which 3,700 permits were issued and 349 bears taken (23:31).
• Discussion on anti-hunting actions such as buying out hunting tags to prevent bear harvest (20:00).
• The hosts critically analyze social media impact—highlighting how bad hunting images and videos can damage public trust and “social license” (24:00).
  • “We work so hard day in and day out on our social license tied to hunting, and you get one video like that…” — Robbie [26:12]

4. Harvest vs. Kill: Language Wars in Hunting

• Upcoming podcast with James Nash and Charles Whitwam on semantics (17:14).
• Robbie and Ashley debate whether controversy over the term “harvest” originates primarily within or outside the hunting community:
  • "It's only controversial inside the hunting space." — Robbie [17:59]
  • "See, I disagree. I think that the anti hunters are the ones that are saying don't say harvest. It's just killing." — Ashley [17:52]
• “Harvest” as conveying broader respect and utilization, vs. “kill” as blunt/unapologetic.

5. National Wildlife Refuge System Funding Crisis & Federal Review (27:26–39:24)

• Background: Declining federal support has left refuges horrifically understaffed and unmanaged, with poaching and habitat degradation rising (27:41).
• Director Brian Nesvik’s December 15 order for a rapid nationwide review—analysis covers 573 refuges, marine parks (almost a billion acres!), and all national fish hatcheries (32:54).
  • "They have not even three weeks over Christmas and New Years to do a full review!” — Ashley [34:00]
• Concerns: The timeline, ambiguous end goal, and “alignment with mission” language prompt deep fears:
  • "My fear is that they're lining up to firing the refuge itself..." — Robbie [36:27]
  • Ashley speculates the review may lay groundwork to decommission or privatize refuges in the name of fiscal conservatism (36:34).
• The unique importance of friends’ groups—local citizens stepping in where federal staff have dwindled.
• The hosts urge listeners to speak up in defense of public lands as the review proceeds:
  • "We need to speak up about this... The people who voted for the administration don't want that, I can tell you." — Ashley [38:00]
• [See more on this starting at 27:30 – policy implications at 35:45.]

6. Colorado’s Wolf Saga: State vs. Federal Showdown (39:27–48:22)

• Robbie describes recent federal (NFWS/Nesvik) intervention:
  • Colorado barred from further sourcing Canadian wolves for reintroduction due to ESA compliance and 10(j) rule loopholes (39:52).
  • Multiple U.S. states and even tribal nations refuse to supply wolves; only Oregon and Washington considered, complications with tribal opposition.
• The Copper Creek Pack exemplifies management chaos—wolves wander into New Mexico, requiring repatriation (40:58).
• Feds escalate: Demand full transparency on all wolf actions since 2023 and threaten to strip Colorado’s authority if non-compliance continues (43:18).
  • “Shit is hitting the ceiling fan.” — Ashley [43:53]
• The hosts express frustration at the politically-driven process, with questions about the real drivers behind reintroduction and the ballooning costs for Coloradoans:
  • “It's just the classic, how many stupid bureaucratic decisions can we make?” — Ashley [47:32]

7. Missouri CWD Management Program Cancellation (48:29–55:56)

• Context: Missouri recently revoked its voluntary post-season deer management (DMAP) program in CWD-affected regions after political backlash (49:29).
• “CWD is a political disease”—the phrase emerges to spotlight growing science denial and rural mistrust around the fatal deer illness.
  • "So like essentially saying CWD is a hoax and the scientific community knows that it's not. It's a real disease. There is very, very ample evidence of. And it's 100 fatal.” — Ashley [50:00]
• Ashley previews an upcoming interview with Jason Sumners, director of Missouri Department of Conservation, about the policy decision.
• Devil’s advocate questions: What happens if CWD isn’t controlled? Will the deer population collapse?
  • “The worst possible outcome is that CWD just continues to spread like wildfire and wipes out their deer population.” — Ashley [52:11]
• Robbie suggests perhaps the only way some will believe is to “see” the devastation—using voluntary programs as a “natural experiment” (53:10).
  • “Maybe we need to see that in the natural system for somebody to take it seriously or not take it seriously.” — Robbie [54:00]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "She had all these questions, and I was like, I cannot answer these... But I have a podcast… I'll answer every single question you have, honestly.” — Robbie [11:08]
• "We work so hard day in and day out on our social license tied to hunting, and you get one video like that…” — Robbie [26:12]
• “My fear is that they're lining up to firing the refuge itself…” — Robbie [36:27]
• “The people who voted for the administration don't want that, I can tell you.” — Ashley [38:00]
• “Shit is hitting the ceiling fan.” — Ashley [43:53]
• "CWD is a political disease... saying CWD is a hoax and the scientific community knows that it's not.” — Ashley [50:00]
• “Maybe we need to see that in the natural system for somebody to take it seriously or not take it seriously.” — Robbie [54:00]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [11:03] – Kenyan activist Mimo Somay episode reflection
• [13:29] – Pridelands Film Festival selection
• [15:35] – Tides of Change award and upcoming release
• [17:14] – Florida black bear hunt analysis, “harvest vs. kill” language
• [24:00] – Social license and viral media’s harm to hunting
• [27:26] – National Wildlife Refuge System funding crisis and review details
• [36:27–38:23] – Fears for the future of public lands raised
• [39:27–48:22] – Colorado wolf reintroduction and federal conflict
• [48:29–55:56] – Missouri CWD program discussion, “political disease”
• [56:54] – Invitation for listener feedback and topic suggestions

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Closing & Listener Call-to-Action

• Listeners are encouraged to participate: text, DM, or leave voice notes with their thoughts and topic requests ([56:54] and [57:01]).
• Closing notes feature a tongue-in-cheek campaign to send Ashley to Kenya for the film festival, linking donation support to continued podcast storytelling and fieldwork.

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Summary

Roundup 164 presents a comprehensive, sometimes irreverent, but always insightful sweep of current conservation issues across the U.S. The blend of reporting, analysis, lively debate, and storytelling makes this episode a goldmine for anyone invested in the dynamic—and often contentious—interface of hunting, conservation policy, and wildlife management. With humor and depth, the hosts effectively champion transparency, science, and the power of public engagement in defending North America’s wild heritage.

Transcript

[A]

Oh, such a clutch off season pickup, Dave. I was worried we'd bring back the same team. I meant those blackout motorized shades. Lines.com made it crazy affordable to replace our old blinds. Hard to install? No, it's easy. I installed these and then got some from my mom. She talked to a design consultant for free and scheduled a professional measure and install hall of fame, son. They're the number one online retailer of custom window coverings in the world. Blinds.com is the goat. Visit blinds.com now for up to 45% off with minimum purchase plus a free professional measurement. Rules and restrictions apply. So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a.

[B]

Burden to walk with.

[A]

Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community? I think it's not only important. I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time. It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder, and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide down. That is such an amazing analogy. Snakes and ladders. Yeah. You know, ivory, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age. Okay.

[B]

The expenses are going up. It goes a long way with families. We have families that do need it.

[A]

Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What you. Are you laughing because I said wiener?

[B]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out. I'm sorry.

[A]

The first half.

[B]

What are we doing here today?

[A]

You're telling the whole world, I don't.

[B]

Like it in front of my face.

[A]

It's not in front of your face. It's way down.

[B]

Well, I moved it down.

[A]

Well, you were saying you're in loungewear. I'm in loungewear. This is a new top that I got for Christmas. It is alpaca.

[B]

Really?

[A]

And it is softer than merino. It's an unbelievable piece. And I was like, I'm buying this for travel. Oh, I like it for airplane travel.

[B]

You got it for Christmas from yourself?

[A]

I bought it and I told my wife, I got a gift that you can wrap up after under the tree from you to me.

[B]

Nice. Those are usually the best kind.

[A]

Didn't you do the same thing?

[B]

I got several presents from myself from my husband that I. I usually don't do this, but I felt kind of guilty this year. Because I kept finding things while I was shopping. And so I actually did wrap them and put them on a fishery year.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Imagine the look of surprise because I've never done that before from Brad. But you've never done that before. I've never done that before ever.

[A]

You've never bought presents for yourself and go, I'm wrapping that up for myself and Brad's giving that to me.

[B]

No, I never have. And I did it this year because I kept finding some really good things.

[A]

What would you have done in the past? Just send him a link saying, buy this for me.

[B]

Yeah. Or got three bags all filled with bubble bath.

[A]

Bath bombs.

[B]

So over bath stuff only for Christmas. So.

[A]

Well, that's that.

[B]

But honestly, I did give him ideas this year and I feel like maybe. Were you with me somewhere? I was somewhere. No, I was somewhere in a work meeting and he was blowing up my phone and I was like, I am in a meeting. And he was like, well, I'm at so and so store and I need to know what.

[A]

Oh, that's right, that's right.

[B]

I was like, this defeats the purpose. Like, there's no surprise, no surprise. But I should not be complaining. I mean, one of them, he was like, what, what did the vases look like that you wanted? And I was like, oh, my gosh, I know exactly what I'm getting.

[A]

Yeah, this is, this is why I tell Lisa all the time, I said, just go buy whatever you want.

[B]

But that is not. You know what? That, like, defeats the spirit of. No, no, no, no, no surprise giving. Can't you guys use a little bit of creativity?

[A]

There are still surprises under the tree, but not every single present. Because what's going to happen? You already said it. You're going to get a bunch of bath shit. That's what's gonna happen.

[B]

Always bath. Why is it always.

[A]

Because you guys love the bath.

[B]

So robes, bath, it's always the same. I mean, or. Or kitchen appliances. Like, I actually love kitchen stuff. I like to cook though. So I, I actually got. I. I sort of had a surprise this year and I was excited about it because I was complaining about my kitchen utensils be plastic. And actually, I don't know that they were all plastic. I think some of them were silicone. And I was like, these are probably fine. I can't really tell. But I love wooden utensils and especially nice ones. And so I was like, I want to start replacing these slowly because I know they're expensive and we don't need to do it all at Once I want to start replacing them with really nice wooden utensils. Well, he went out and he said, pull out all the woods you don't like. And he went and replaced them all. I got this giant bundle of amazing half wooden, half silicone.

[A]

Well done. See, that worked perfectly.

[B]

Yeah, only the silicon ones aren't very cute. And so I was like, I don't want to put those out on my counter. So he's like, well, take them back and trade them. So.

[A]

Yeah, exactly. You're not going to take. He's not going to take offense. Nobody's going to take offense to that. That has been married for a while. So up.

[B]

So that was kind of a fun surprise. But yeah, no, nobody wants a vacuum. I mean, actually Brad would probably like a vacuum. Brad is obsessed with laundry and vacuums and kept buying these awful expensive canister vacuums for years. And I hated them. Our sweet housekeepers hated them. We finally were like, just get the cheap, like shark ones. We love the sharks. So, you know, people like, people have different things they like. And I like ideas, I like giving ideas and then adding the element of creativity and surprise. So I like your alpaca shirt. I am as also in a loungewear, but mine is just Amazon. It's probably made of pee paws.

[A]

Well, we haven't, we haven't done a roundup in quite some time. Hopefully we're a little bit more regular on our roundups in 2026. We do have a lot of traveling in front of us.

[B]

Well, some of those will be together and maybe could do some in person roundups.

[A]

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[B]

Like, of yourself, you're saying, what was your favorite podcast? Of yourself?

[A]

No, no, no, of myself. Of our Origins foundation podcast series. Like, who. Who did you podcast with? Like, the podcast that you like the most. And it was with that Kenyan activist.

[B]

Oh, oh, of. Okay, so, like, the number five that.

[A]

You ever did the number five podcast. Like, number five Blood Origins. Gosh, I can't even remember her name now. I'd have to. Oh, Mimo. So. Mei. Mimo Somay. Go back. Go back in time or just Google it because it'll be too long to, like, scroll through Spotify and Apple.

[B]

I would like to go back and listen to some.

[A]

Listen to Mimo Somi. Because she was somebody who came into our Instagram DMs and said, I do not understand the premise of your Instagram page. And I said, well, here it is conveying the truth about hunting. And she was like. She had all these questions, and I was like, I cannot answer these. These questions through dm. Like, I can't. I'm sorry. But I have a podcast, because we were super early on in that process. Have a podcast. Do you want to come onto the podcast and I'll answer every single question you have, honestly. And I didn't think she would show up. I honestly. She was 10 minutes late, and she logged on, and it's an hour and a half in which she asks questions like, oh, Americans come to Africa to hunt because you've killed all the wildlife in America. Oh, you come to hunt an elephant and take its tusks back because you can sell the tusks for $50,000.

[B]

Oh, so tons of misconceptions.

[A]

Amazing. And you can literally, like, at the mark, 45 minutes, you can hear a break. Like, it's like, oh, man, this guy has an answer for, like, everything I have. And what I'm saying doesn't sound right at all.

[B]

And she's from Kenya and they don't hunt.

[A]

Yeah. So talking about Kenya, since we're talking about current events, current news on the roundup, we have submitted our elephant documentary out of Botswana called A Fine Balance to the Pridelands Film Festival out of Nairobi, Kenya. I know the director of the film festival names Fiona Tande. I met her on our cheetah project in 2024. And it is. It's something that may come to fruition. So we already got officially selected by the film festival.

[B]

Oh, good.

[A]

And we're just waiting to hear if we're going to actually be officially placed in the program.

[B]

When will we know?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Where is the Pridelands Festival held?

[A]

Nairobi, Kenya.

[B]

Oh, my gosh. That would be amazing. Okay. On the air. Please let me go. When is it?

[A]

It'll be June. No, it's May 28th. 29th. I'm actually. The whole month of May. I'm in South Africa doing rhino documentary work. And so the film crew's with me. The whole crew's with me. So I talked to the film crew about it and I said, why don't you just come to Nairobi with me and we film the whole thing. Like, film I. Us being on stage, us, the film, the reaction, the questions, the answers.

[B]

That would be amazing.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I'm putting in my official request to go be part of my.

[A]

I think you may get denied.

[B]

Don't you say that. Don't you say that. Don't you say that on here.

[A]

So, yeah, if anybody is going around the shows, the show season. Show season's upon us. We're going to be probably at all the shows. Nwtf, scr, dsc, a bunch of the chapters.

[B]

Shot show. You're going to shot show for a day.

[A]

Shot show for a day. Sheep show.

[B]

Sheep show.

[A]

Yeah. Look us up. We're around. Feel free to, you know, reach out to us. We'd love to meet. We'd love to shake your hand. Love to take a selfie.

[B]

Robbie loves selfies.

[A]

I just love meeting people. And the best way to capture, like, the meaning is with a selfie.

[B]

I love your selfie faces. Many selfie faces of Robbie.

[A]

They're great.

[B]

Speaking of documentaries and circuits and awards and things like that. And I don't think we've mentioned this because it hasn't been released publicly and hopefully it will be soon. But tides have Changed. Just won an award.

[A]

Tides of Change got officially selected in a short film festival out of Atlanta. And it is the same film festival cruise. Trying to get it put in. No. Maybe it. I can't remember. It won something else. It won something else. And then there it's being submitted to the Atlanta Short Film Documentary Festival in March, and we hope that it'll be selected and played at that film festival because it's from Georgia, it's about sea turtles, it's about, you know, people's stories, people's lives changing, people's attitudes changing.

[B]

And when will people be able to see that? When will the public be able to see that?

[A]

We're hoping June. June to be officially released.

[B]

And the same film crew that shot that are the ones working on the bear documentary in Mississippi, which is exciting.

[A]

Working on a bear documentary right now. Same crew working on that. That's going to be, you know. How long have we been filming that? Since October.

[B]

Yeah, we started in October and I think we will be finished in March for the den checks. Yeah, we're doing that one in phases.

[A]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So lots of things happening. And those are only just two of probably a dozen projects that we have on the go right now. So pretty excited about it.

[B]

Speaking of bears, the Florida season, it made a whole lot of money and.

[A]

Made a whole lot of money.

[B]

Not a whole lot of bears were killed.

[A]

Not a big splash at all.

[B]

Harvested. Harvested. We'll say harvested.

[A]

52. Oh. Talking about harvest and kill, that's the other thing that we're going to have a podcast with James Nash and Charles Whitwam, how for Wildlife and Six Ranch podcasts. Because they just did a big post on management harvest versus kill in terms of what it actually means, the purpose. Right. And there's obviously, you know, I don't think there is a more controversial like discussion topic in the hunting space than the utilization of the words why and why.

[B]

So do you think it's controversial within the hunting space or you think that.

[A]

The anti hunters are making controversial? It's. No, it's only controversial inside the hunting space.

[B]

See, I disagree. I think that the anti hunters are the ones that are saying don't. Don't say harvest. It's just killing. It's just killing. You're. You're slapping the word harvest on it and trying to make it sound like something better. And it's just killing.

[A]

And I don't think I've ever heard an anti hunter say that.

[B]

I, I heard it last week.

[A]

You did?

[B]

On. Yeah, I heard somebody posted it on.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

On a hunting, you know, Instagram story. Someone said that. And I was thinking, well, that harvesting to me connotates so much more than just killing it and leaving it for dead. I mean, obviously you're, you're killing an animal, but you are harvesting the meat. You are using all of the materials. You are.

[A]

Well, you're certainly exploring the reason for why we're going to be doing this podcast.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Lots of nuances behind it. Right. And the agricultural rhetoric that comes with harvest. The decision to use different types of language from a marketing perspective, convincing perspective, discussion perspective to like an unapologetic viewpoint of what we do as hunters.

[B]

I love the word harvest. I mean I don't have a problem with it. I use it, I use it in.

[A]

Both, in both contexts. So it's all depending on, you know, who we're talking to.

[B]

Yeah, that'll be interesting when you guys.

[A]

Get a good one. It's going to be a good one. I don't know.

[B]

Let's set it up soon.

[A]

Soon hopefully. Yeah, soon. All right. So talking about obviously Florida black bears has been in the news tremendously. Only 52 bears were taken. If you weren't, if you haven't been, if you've been living under a rock, 52 bears of 172 taken. And I did a little bit of an analysis on that in that if you looked at assume 35, they reckon about 35% of the individuals that got the tags were anti hunters. And then there was that big offer by, I can't remember what organization bear warriors or something like that for, you know, give you two grand. Be warriors, two bear warriors, two grand to not harvest your bear. We'll give you two grand.

[B]

I was going to say are that they're I assume, anti.

[A]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, totally anti.

[B]

But they sound like they would be people wearing their like hides.

[A]

It's an interesting, interesting sort of thought process there of the name to the anti hunting organization. And so I, you know, I thought maybe like 103 probably tags were available and 52 were taken. So you know, just under, just on 50% of the tags, you know, in terms of the quota that was taken. Overall though, if you take the 172, 52 or 172 was a 30% take that occurred. So it'd be interesting to see. And everyone's like, well, you know, Travis talked about like people are going to spin it as, you know, every way that they can think of. Right. Hunting wasn't successful enough. The bear density is much less then the science is saying. But if you looked at the original hunt in 2015, 3,000 tags were issued. 349 bears were taken. Granted that was in a 48 hour period. That was 8% take on the quota.

[B]

I didn't realize they issued 3,000 tags.

[A]

3,000 in 2015.

[B]

What you mean?

[A]

2017, 2015 I thought was the hunt.

[B]

I think it was 17. Anyway, whenever it was.

[A]

Yeah. So anyway, they, I, you know, all intended purposes, I think it was a very successful managed hunt. The quota was know, not exceeded. I don't know what the difference between, you know, whether how many males got shot, how many females got shot. But the 172 was set conservatively to assume all 172 bears would be, would have been females. And taken.

[B]

I mean, I don't see how anyone could argue it wasn't successful considering how much money they raised for the bear program. And there were no major, major issues. I mean, you know, for it being implemented for the first time in so long, other than the one that they.

[A]

Had shut down early. I want, I saw one absolutely terrible photo.

[B]

What was that?

[A]

Luckily, did not get legs underneath it. It was on one of those big like swamp buggies that they, they go through in the swamps. And this bear was sort of not strung out, but he was on its back dead. Obviously. It's, it's barely facing the camera and this girl was like holding its mouth open and whatnot. And it was this photo, it wasn't a pretty photo.

[B]

Well, it was 2015 and they issued more than 3,700 permits, which is crazy to me. Killed over 300 bears. I mean that photo doesn't sound as bad as my sons were watching YouTube videos this weekend of bear hunts in other states and they're hunting them with just almost like a rabbit hunt with hounds. And I've, you know, hunted rabbits tons of times with beagles and only these weren't very well controlled hounds and they were just absolutely mauling the bear.

[A]

And you know, the bear up the tree, obey the bear.

[B]

The bears rolling down the mountain. The dogs are with the dogs, with the dogs with the dogs rolling down the hill. Bears are on it, they get a kink. The people can't get the dog off the bear. They like, wow. Literally they go up and they shoot the bear at point blank range with two dogs still on the bear. I'm like, this is the worst example of I've ever seen. And my husband walks in and he's, who is a punter. He's, you know, you know, Brad's a hunter and he's like, this what? This is awful. He's like, quit showing them that. He's like, this is terrible. And I'm like, I mean it's not good. I was like, people hunt with hounds, it's okay. And I'm like, but this is not a good example of one. How to run your Dogs to how to hunt anything, I think with a dog or hunt bears. I mean I was just kind of.

[A]

Bad all around and I was like terrible, terrible example.

[B]

It was.

[A]

And that's kind of houndsman and his pack.

[B]

It was bad and that. And I don't know what state they were in. It was snowy. But I'm like, this is what's giving. I mean like you can put anything on YouTube, you know, and that's kind of an issue with anybody can go out there and they can hunt anything and they can. And then people who are watching, who aren't hunters think that that's the norm. And you know, then, now my 8 year old thinks that that's how you hunt bears. I'm like, that's not one, how you run your dogs and two, how you hunt bears. And not a good example. And you know, and then they, then they didn't even kill the bear the first one because it was too small. So you've got this mauled up bear from all these dogs that they couldn't get off of it. That's been literally. He's rolled down the mountain all the, in all these boulders and the dogs were mauling and then they leave him and then they go find another one. He walks up while the bears are all on it and he shoots it this close and he doesn't even hit. He shoots it in the jaw.

[A]

Yeah, that's the problem. Right. We can work. And that's probably the most frustrating part of our job is that we work so hard day in and day out on our social license tied to hunting and you get one video like that that may not be seen by many people, hopefully that, you know, has 800 views.

[B]

Oh, I'm sure if my son was watching it on YouTube, it has a.

[A]

Lot of views but you know, hopefully it doesn't get picked up and used somewhere somehow. Right. But it's certainly evidence out there without anybody considering. How is this, you know, is this piece of content helping or hurting hunting? End of story.

[B]

Right, right. Well, that's why we do what we do to try to get.

[A]

Well, we try every day, every day.

[B]

That if you only saw the one bad picture, then that's not bad.

[A]

One bad picture. And it was on actually a video talking about the bear hunt and he had the photo in the video. So didn't get out. Didn't get out. Well, you have put together some videos lately on certain, lots of different topics.

[B]

Well, I don't know what you pushed.

[A]

Out earlier this week on Monday was on the Refuges, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

So what's happening with that is. I heard that you. I know that you. You sent some things that was just like, hey, they're doing this review. It's two and a half weeks. They have to review.

[B]

Yeah, what is it? 600 different things. You and I have talked a lot, and thankfully there is increasing awareness around the issue of the, I would call it, catastrophic funding situation surrounding our national wildlife refuge system. It's been declining just really, really badly over the last decade, more than the last decade. And it got really bad during COVID And the refuges across the country are horrifically understaffed. Some of them have no staff. Many of them have one staffer. And I mean, we're not talking 200 acres. You know, we're talking tracks of 10,000 acres, 20,000 acres, 30,000 acres.

[A]

And.

[B]

And when you're talking tracks at that scale that were commissioned originally to hold waterfowl, to hold various species. I mean, these were designated as critical and some of the best habitat in the country for wildlife and to be a refuge. And some of them allow hunting, Many of them allow hunting. And they're supposed to be operated and maintained by the federal government to hold all of these different wildlife species. And they have habitat management plans that were put together after very, very, very thorough, thorough review by wildlife biologists and stakeholders and NGOs that mandate how they are to be maintained. You know, they look at the topography and all of the different types of. They have specific moist soil units. They, depending on the where you are in the country, you know what they have on there. But, you know, they designate. They have infrastructure, they have levees, they have different areas on each one. And. And they talk about, you know, you need to go in during this time of year and you need to disc. This and you need to plant that. And they work with farmers in certain situations to plant certain types of crops that different types of species need to eat, you know, to survive during the winter. And so what is this drain? Rotate this.

[A]

And we know these refugees, but that's not being done.

[B]

What? I'm sorry.

[A]

I said, we know that the refuges have all these problems. You just outlined them all. So what's the story?

[B]

I don't think people understand how drastic the problem is across the country. So. So we're here. They're not being funded, they have no staff, they're not being maintained. I mean, during every government shutdown, they go completely, completely off the grid, other than there will be a couple. So what they deem essential Services usually is just the. There'll be an enforcement officer or two that'll come out there, but trash isn't being picked up. I mean, nothing's being done. They're not being mowed. The visitor centers aren't open. A lot of the visitor centers aren't open anyway because there's nobody to staff them. And so, you know, poaching is rampant.

[A]

Well, didn't you mention something, didn't you mention something about friends of the refuges? That's why these, a lot of organizations are being stood up.

[B]

Some of them, some of them have what's called friends groups, Friends of the refuge groups that They've entered into MOUs with the service to help provide volunteer services and different types of services for refuges to kind of stand in the gap, to fill the holes. And it varies as to how strong these friends groups are, what they can do, what they have put in these plans. Some are better than others, some don't have them. It's at least something where private citizens have said, look, we're going to try to help because there's just, you know, we're not going to let this critical piece, this habitat near us. I mean, a lot of them are local landowners that live around it, and they're saying, look, our land is only as good as the adjacent land. I mean, you know, if. It's if. And so they've recognized this need. And so on December 15, Brian Nesvik, the director of the Fish and Wildlife Service, entered an order calling for a nationwide review of all of the national wildlife refuges. There are 573 in the country, all of our national marine parks, which is like some insane amount. I think it's like 970 million acres. And then all of the national fish hatcheries across the country, I think a lot of people don't realize that the fish hatcheries are a part of our refuge system as well. The fish hatcheries stocked 122 million pounds of fish last year across the country.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

So our refuge system employs half of the services workforce and it comprises most of the resources for the service. So he said, okay, so it's massive. Like, that's. We're just talking about the scale. I want people to understand the scale of the refuge system. And so Nesbi on December 15 issued an order calling for a nationwide review. For every single one of those pieces that I just mentioned and asks for has the staff has to look at all these different things in the scope and essentially like funding and operation and maintenance, infrastructure needs, all these things and asks them to look at where they are not in alignment with the mission for which they were established and any barriers to that. And all of these recommendations were due by Monday, January 5th. So they had like not even three.

[A]

Weeks, which over Christmas and New Year's period.

[B]

Over Christmas and New Year's, yeah. So at first people were like, oh, this is good, we're having a national review. And then you're like, and everything was due in less than three weeks over all these federal holidays. And half of them don't even have like adequate staff to do anything anyway. So you can imagine that these people are scrambling. And, and so full and final recommendations are due February 15th. So they've also asked for recommendations from friends groups, from conservation NGOs. But, and so they're like, okay, well do they want those by February 15th? Like, are they taking those into account? Like, and it's, and you're like, what is the end goal here? Because the language is a little bit concerning when it says that are no longer in align with a mission. I mean every single one of these has a mission in the history and when they were established and, and the missions are fantastic. I mean these were all designated for wonderful purposes to provide critical habitat for public use for, you know, multi, multi use and provide essential habitat and public use outdoor areas for the nation. And so you're thinking, well if they're not, I'm sure tons of them are going to be found not to be in alignment with the mission for which they were established. But the only reason that they wouldn't be is because Congress isn't providing the funding for them to comply with their habitat management plans.

[A]

I mean, so what, what do we think's the end game here?

[B]

I am worried, I am very, very worried that this is just a checking the box going, you know, how if somebody like at a law firm or a business, they aren't happy with something and they want to fire someone and they know they do, but HR comes back and says, well, you haven't documented it. And so you've got to write a review. It's got to go in their file so that we can fire them. So write a review, put it in their file and then in a month or two will have something written so that then we can fire them. So that's my fear, is that they're.

[A]

Lining up to firing the refuge itself.

[B]

Well, that's my fear is that they're going to.

[A]

What does that look like? What does that look like?

[B]

Well, Congress would have to decommission some of these refuges. So luckily Nesvik can't on his own. And, and I don't know that that's like, look, I'm not saying this is coming from Nesvik. I'm worried that it's coming from above him. So I mean he answers to Doug Bergrum, you know, the Secretary of the Interior who answers to the President. And we know that there's just a national right now push for opening up everything for you know, more mineral rights and you know, more drilling, more everything. But also there's kind of a, a right leaning push to, against public lands at the moment. And so my worry is that they are going to try to use this as a tool to eliminate some of our. Because, because look, we're, they're trying to find all sorts of ways to eliminate the national debt, to get rid of our deficit, all these things. And I mean it's obviously a drain on our resources. So, but, but this is not the way to do it. And the majority of the base of the right also happen to be hunters, they happen to be anglers, they happen to be, you know, users of these refuges. And so, you know, it's. The people who voted for the administration don't want that, I can tell you. So I'm just, I'm just worried that like we need to speak up about this. We need to say, look, we, we're for, we're for the Constitution, we're for all these things. Like we, there's so many things that we are happy with what the administration is doing. Don't do that.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, no, it's a, it's a great explanation because obviously it's very complicated and if you want more information, go see that video on Instagram.

[B]

And, and, and look, this is just, I don't know this, this is just my hunch because it's such a short timeline. It just doesn't make sense. I mean if they were really trying to adequately shore up resources and direct funding where it needs to go specifically the appropriations process takes longer than that. They don't have to have it necessarily by February 15th. I mean that is definitely the beginning of the serious appropriations timeline. But it's just a little, little concerning to me right now.

[A]

Well, we'll keep our finger on the pulse because obviously they're going to announce the outcome of that review in some sort of fashion. You would think, you would think so.

[B]

So we are going to monitor it.

[A]

Well, sticking with Nesvik, Nesvic has been a busy bee. We're quite, he's doing some different Things that the other administration did not do. Number one is he sent a letter to Colorado saying the first letter will let you talk about the second letter. The first letter which was you are not allowed to get any more wolves from Canada.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

It doesn't fit what we have. It doesn't it. The 10J rule doesn't allow it. You have to get it from the lower 48. And we are just like, whoa, that's huge. That was a huge like step forward to say, hey. And then we started thinking like, where the hell are you going to get wolves from now? Because everyone's told them no. Wyoming, Idaho, Montana all said no. The only people that have said yes were Washington to give them depredated wolves. But then there was now a Indian tribe that said, no, don't take our wolves. And there was an Indian tribe in Colorado that says, we're going to support our brethren up there. And so they said, okay, we're not going to do those rules anymore. So that leaves Oregon and now Nesvik just sends. And then. Oh, and then in this whole turmoil, the Copper Creek pack is just going to town. The Copper Creek pack went of the males, left Colorado, entered into New Mexico and they've already established an agreement between New Mexico, Arizona and Colorado to say if one of your wolves come over here, no, no, no, no, no, they don't belong here, take them back.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So they came and caught the wolf that's a part of the Copper Creek pack. They got moved from grand county to Pitkin county because of the depredations that were occurring in Graham county. And they dropped that wolf in Grant County. It is a mess.

[B]

It's a mess. It is insane. It's insane. And just for background for anybody that's new hasn't been following this from the beginning. In 2020, Colorado voters approved Proposition 114, directing CPW to reintroduce gray wolves back into the state. Fish and Wildlife Service established their wolf population as a non essential experimental population under the esa. They gave them at that time oversight and sourcing conditions that have to be followed. And, and that's where the, all the issues have come up since then. So they originally sourced wolves from British Columbia. Fish and Wildlife Service says Those violated that ESA 10J agreement because Canada lies outside the source. So the first letter came October 10th, cease and desist. And that's what Robbie was talking about. And so they've been trying to find wolves from other places and people saying no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And they told them at that time they had to stop these non compliant reintroduction efforts.

[A]

Well, and depredations was a non compliance too, Right, Right.

[B]

Because they, they brought in wolves that were known livestock deprecators. Well, on December 18th, this just happened. They sent another letter saying, look, we have reason to believe you have continued non compliancy. We think they think that they have snuck in another one. They have demanded a full report on all wolf actions since 2020. And they threatened that to you. What?

[A]

When is it due? When is that report due? I thought it was soon.

[B]

It's due 60 days. 60 days.

[A]

60 days, right, right.

[B]

Yeah. They're threatening then to terminate Colorado's authority to manage wolves.

[A]

So February.

[B]

Yeah, they have to document. Oh, since 2023. Sorry, detailed documentation on the Canadian wolves. All CWD CPW decisions regarding them. And if it isn't supplied within the time, it might be shorter than 60 days. Then they get a 60 day calendar notice of termination of the agreement and then the Fish and Wildlife Service assumes full wolf management authority, including relocation and lethal removal. So like excuse my language, shit is.

[A]

Hitting the ceiling fan. Exactly.

[B]

This is like a crazy showdown between the feds in Colorado. And what I don't understand is why is Colorado so intent on this? I mean, I just want to say.

[A]

One person, there is one person intent on this and it's not even the governor. It's not in the governor.

[B]

See, I keep hearing is the governor.

[A]

It's his husband.

[B]

Well, okay, so that's what people say. Have the people keep saying, have you met the governor? I have not met the governor. And they're like, have you met his husband? But the husband is the one that was wearing the fur hat at the event when they were trying to pass the ban on fur in Denver, Right?

[A]

Correct.

[B]

No, no, no, no. It was real fur. Well, it was a real fur hat.

[A]

So it is absolutely as. Yeah, it is a mess of messes. And.

[B]

And what the dude just like dying to have wolves in the state?

[A]

Yeah, that was his thing. That's the thing. He wanted. He wanted wolves. Now I've heard news that there's not even a plan. Obviously. I think this letter put that into play. No plan at all in 2026 to bring another single wolf into Colorado.

[B]

But I think. Didn't they just sneak one in?

[A]

I don't know if they snuck one. You think they snuck some more in.

[B]

Since the BC introduction. So that. So the letter, the December 18th letter has not been publicly released. But it is on. Hold on. It's. Somebody has privately released it And CRWM.

[A]

Showed it on their Instagram. Yeah, I was gonna say for responsible wildlife management.

[B]

How do I. Hold on. Sorry.

[A]

Look at your music.

[B]

That's your plan?

[A]

Oh, my gosh. Technological genius Ashley here.

[B]

Oh, I know.

[A]

I know. I saw it on Colorado Management.

[B]

Yeah. Additionally, on December 17, Fish and Wildlife Service was informed that CPW recently released a wolf from a pack with a confirmed history of repeated depredation.

[A]

Yes, that's the. That's the wolf. The male wolf that I believe I can stand to be corrected. But that happened at the exact same time. That wolf is the one that went into New Mexico. Was the male 2405 or whatever it is. He got picked up, known to be in a. From a pack of depredators, the Copper Creek Pack in Pitkin county right now and got dropped in Grand County.

[B]

Okay, so the information has to be provided. So the 2023 on has to be provided within a 30 calendar days. If the information is not provided within 30 calendar days, the service will pursue all legal remedies as warranted.

[A]

All right. And who knows what happens then?

[B]

The above information is not supplied within the prescribed time period. This letter serves as the requisite 60 calendar day notice of termination. I mean, look, I love this.

[A]

Like CPW and claims depredation claims. Who pays the depredation claims? Efficient Wildlife Service takes over.

[B]

They ran out of money from that fund that they set up immediately, so they don't have any more unless it created more this year in the new calendar year.

[A]

I think it comes from general funds.

[B]

I'm sure that's just what Coloradans want to do, is just keep paying more.

[A]

And more and more.

[B]

Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars more. Just. It's just. I mean, it's just. It's just the classic, how many stupid bureaucratic decisions can we make?

[A]

No, it is the classic this is. You would have made a lot of money if at the time of the public vote, where the public was determining ballot box biology, like the public determining this. This wildlife species belongs in the state of Colorado, I. E. Bring elephants back to the state of Colorado. You would have made a lot of money to say, is this going to go well or is it going to go badly or poorly.

[B]

It went badly and poorly.

[A]

Yes. Very, very well said. Very well said. All right, give me one more topic before we run out of time.

[B]

Well, we were. We are not going to discuss this exhaustively, but I am podcasting tomorrow with Jason Sumners, the director of Missouri Department of Conservation, because they have recently this Past month revoked or what do you want to call it? Eliminated Their post season deer voluntary management program where they allow the targeted removal of more deer in. I don't know if they call them CWD zones or if they're just areas where CWD is more prevalent, but it's essentially a lot of states call them their DMAP programs, but they, It's a. It was a voluntary program that allowed the agency to work with landowners, farmers to.

[A]

So was it landowners taking out the deer or was it the agency taking out the deer on. On the behest of the landowners?

[B]

I. I know it was.

[A]

We'll find out tomorrow.

[B]

I know it was land. I know that landowners could do it and I think that they could have the agency do it as well. So we'll find out for sure tomorrow. I haven't read up on everything that.

[A]

Was to reduce deer densities.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Specifically.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In CWDS areas.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

To then reduce potential transmission in those areas.

[B]

Yes. And people were losing their minds over it. And, and Jason said this was. So in Missouri, some of the groups over there started calling it a political disease. A political disease. So like essentially saying CWD is a hoax and the scientific community knows that it's not. It's a real disease. There is very, very ample evidence of. And it's 100 fatal. And so, you know, Jason has issued some very emphatic statements saying that, you know, basically we caved to political professure on this and he sounded very reluctant about it, but he also did it. So it's kind of interesting. I feel like they were between a rock and a hard place. And so I'm. I'm interested to see what he has to say about this. And it's. I kind of feel bad for him and I also feel bad for all of the farmers and the people that one wanted and needed the program. And so. But there's been a lot of press on this up there. And so it's, it's interesting. Some of the surrounding states that I've talked to the agencies are just shaking their heads. Shaking their heads. So I, I think he felt like he had to do it and I think he probably got a lot of pressure.

[A]

So let me ask this and I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second, which maybe you can play devil's advocate with Jason tomorrow about it is what's the outcome at the end of the day, what is the what is the what is. And, and I'll may even play it even harsher. Devil's advocate position. What's the quote, unquote terrible outcome that comes from this if this doesn't happen?

[B]

Oh, I mean, like, well, the worst possible outcome is that CWD just continues to spread like wildfire and wipes out their deer population. That's the worst possible outcome.

[A]

So we think there will be an extinction of deer because of CWD if.

[B]

If nothing is done. If nothing's done. But hopefully it won't come to that. I mean, hopefully they will still be allowed to manage it in some capacity. I mean, you can compare what other states are doing around it. And I think Jason will talk about that. I mean, he said in some of his press releases, look, we're just, we're going to take a step back and evaluate all of our options to manage the disease. But you know what, what puzzled me was that this was not a mandatory program, it was a voluntary program. So I don't understand why so many people were getting butt hurt about it.

[A]

And.

[B]

So I know I've got a lot of questions. I've got a lot of questions.

[A]

Do we think though, there's an opportunity to learn here, which is, let's let it be and learn from what happens in the scenario five years down the road, 10 years down the road. Do we have a declining deer population? Do we have a decimated deer population in 10 years time?

[B]

Well, do you want to be the state, do you want to own land and be the guinea pig for that?

[A]

I mean, that's essentially what's being put in place though.

[B]

If you are one of the, if you're a landowner two counties over from a county that has it and you are, you could voluntarily participate in a program that fends the population or, you know, you're in a county that is being asked to and so you can potentially help control it. If you're a landowner two, three counties over, what would your answer be?

[A]

What if I'm the.

[B]

Let's see what happens. Because once you have it, the value of your property is going down. It's down.

[A]

What if I'm a landowner that doesn't believe in cwd? I believe it is one of these political hoaxes. It's not going to affect my dear population. Well, isn't this the perfect experiment for that to be shown whether it's true or not?

[B]

Well, that's what the guy in Texas said and didn't want anything to happen. And now his, his, his, his deer are almost like completely, they almost all completely died in three years.

[A]

Who's that guy?

[B]

The guy with the high fence that kept Fighting the state on, coming in and trying to thin and take measures to.

[A]

So he lost all his deer, Almost all of them. Well, maybe we need to see that in the natural system for somebody to take it seriously or not take it seriously.

[B]

But we have seen that in some states. I mean, that's the problem. Some of the states, they have been wiped out. And it's just, it comes down to people like, it's like you're just putting blinders on and saying, I don't. I don't care enough about future generations to do anything about it right now. There's also, there's also.

[A]

Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[B]

You can't make people believe in science. You just can't. I mean, you also can't make a sick person go to the doctor. I mean, my grandfather died of a bleeding ulcer because he would not go to the doctor. Wouldn't go. Wouldn't go. Wouldn't go. I mean, you can't force people.

[A]

You're proving my point.

[B]

But you can have voluntary programs. And that's the thing. That wasn't a mandatory program. It was a voluntary program.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Wrestling up against my loungewear.

[A]

Yeah, that mic is slowly going down. Lift it up a little bit more.

[B]

As is the topic of our podcast.

[A]

No, look, this is current events and you're talking.

[B]

We're gonna get some Google voice things about this one, which we knew we haven't had it in a while.

[A]

Yeah, well, we don't tell people and we haven't done the roundup. So if you've listened to us this far, if you have a topic, if you have something of interest, if you have an opinion on the Florida black bear situation or the Missouri CWD situation or anything. Tell us a topic that we need to discuss that you want to hear our opinions on.

[B]

It is 601-790-0607.

[A]

Text us. Oh, I see the technology queen is back. Text us.

[B]

I was trying to see if it's.

[A]

On our voice note. Text us. Leave us a voice note. 601-790-0607 Good. Out of the gate roundup for 2026. I'm sure there's going to be even hotter topics coming. I'm sure there will be hotter topics. Reach out to us. You can DM us, send us a message, comment Facebook messenger, whichever way you want to reach out to us and drop us a line. You can. If you feel like supporting us in 2026. You've been listening to the podcast for forever, but you've never decided to Give us dime. Give us the cup of the cost of a cup of coffee a month. Five bucks a month. You'll be entered into a bunch of cool things. Somebody just won a tar hunt in New Zealand for giving $10 a month.

[B]

Oh, man. So please give more money. Then maybe Robbie will let me go to Kenya.

[A]

Yeah, let's use that as the platform. Push. Get Ashley to Kenya. Give us money. Yes, everyone should donate to that.

[B]

It will be. It will raise the entertainment level 100%.

[A]

100%. All right, folks, text us, message us, and we'll chat to you next week.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Cheers, Ashley. Bye. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening, as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

[B]

I love your selfie.

[A]

So, yeah, if anybody is going around.

[B]

Where is the Pridelands Festival held? Oh, my gosh. That would be amazing. Okay. On the air.

[A]

It'll be June if we're selected. No, it's May 28th. 29th. I'm actually. The whole month of May. I'm in South Africa doing rhino documentary work. And so the film crew's with me. The whole crew's with me. So I talked to the film crew about it, and I said, why don't you just come to Nairobi with me and we film the whole thing. Like, film us being on stage, us, the film, the reaction, the questions, the answers. Sure.

[B]

That would be amazing.

[A]

So.

[B]

I'm putting in my official request to go.

[A]

I think you may get denied African education.

[B]

Don't you say that. Don't you say that. Don't you say that on here.

[A]

So, yeah, if anybody is going around the shows, the show season. Show season's upon us. We're going to be probably at all the shows NWA ever did. And there's got other, you know, bits and pieces where we can fill in the gaps from a roundup perspective and.

[B]

You know, hopefully of yourself, you're saying.

[A]

What was your favorite podcast of yourself on a weekly basis through the Roundup, wherever we are in the world. So that's what the roundup is. If you've never listened to a Roundup, welcome to your first roundup. First roundup of 2026. If you have first come to the Origins foundation podcast, welcome.

[B]

Okay.