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- [00:00]
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- [00:39]
Podcast Host
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- [01:43]
Narrator
graphic content and discussion of suicide.
- [01:46]
David Frazee
If you or someone you know needs
- [01:47]
Narrator
Support, call or text. 988 when an 80 year old archaeologist and lifelong hunter was found dead inside his burned out home. The fire marshal called it a possible homicide. But suspicions weren't enough for the family of Dr. John Young. They needed more. And yet the story of their father and grandfather was lost, forgotten and in some cases ignored altogether. In this episode of Blood Trails that Changes. On January 7, 2019, Kevin Young picked up his phone and took a call that would change his life.
- [02:33]
Kevin Young
As I remember, it was probably around 23 o' clock in the afternoon. I received a call from my brother stating that he got a call from the sheriff's department at Taos that my father's house was on fire and they didn't know where he was at, but that his Suburban was parked in front of the garage doors.
- [02:55]
Narrator
This was concerning, but it was also strange. Kevin's father, Dr. John Young lived in an adobe house in the town of Taos, New Mexico. Dr. Young had been an accomplished archaeologist before he retired in the early 2000s. He'd built his adobe home in part to pay homage to the native people and cultures he'd spent his career studying in the American Southwest. He knew, and he taught his sons that adobe homes are highly fire resistant. They almost never burn. But Kevin's brother reported that their father's home was engulfed in flames. Kevin was living in Arizona at the time, so he packed up his truck and made the six hour drive up to Taos.
- [03:34]
Kevin Young
The fire was just still smoldering at the time, and the fire marshal was there in his vehicle. And so I met with them and talked to him a little bit, and they said that they still hadn't determine where my father was at.
- [03:50]
Narrator
Dr. Young's Chevy Suburban was parked outside. And the fire investigator mentioned that the driver's side door of the car and the front door of the home had been open when the firefighters arrived.
- [04:01]
Kevin Young
So they said they couldn't go in and check for him until in the morning when the fire was down enough and they could determine that it was safe to enter the building, enter his house. And so I stayed in my truck overnight.
- [04:16]
Narrator
There was for the next 12 hours, all Kevin could do was sit in his truck and watch the flames consume the house he and his father had built by hand.
- [04:25]
Kevin Young
They started searching the house probably around 10 o' clock in the morning, and then he came out a little bit later. And they said they had found some remains in the house.
- [04:35]
Narrator
The body had been burned beyond recognition, but Kevin confirmed that, like so many old men, his father always carried a small pocket knife. They found that pocketknife beside the corpse in the garage.
- [04:47]
Kevin Young
They were fairly certain, but they wouldn't say that it was his remains until they could do an autopsy.
- [04:53]
Narrator
That initial autopsy confirmed that Kevin's father had died in the fire. The medical examiner found soot in his lungs, which indicated that he'd been breathing while the fire was burning. But they also found something else when
- [05:07]
Kevin Young
they did do the autopsy. There was a hole in his skull that looked like a bullet hole. Entry going in, not coming out.
- [05:16]
Narrator
It looked like Kevin's father had been shot near his ear on the left side of his head. What's more, the fire investigator, a guy named Jimmy Vigil, found that the fire had likely not been an accident.
- [05:27]
Kevin Young
Jimmy, during his investigation later that day, said that he had determined that there was at least five areas of acceleration and possibly seven.
- [05:38]
Narrator
In other words, someone had dumped gasoline or lighter fluid or something else or around the inside of Dr. Young's house. The fire had started in the master bedroom and then spread to consume the entire structure. It was so hot and so intense that it took firefighters the better part of 24 hours to put it out. Even before the medical examiner found what looked like a bullet hole in Dr. Young's skull. These findings convinced the fire investigator that what happened to the 80 year old had been intentional. Jimmy wrote in a sworn affidavit that he believed, quote, this incident and the sequence of events are highly suspicious, making this death a possible homicide.
- [06:19]
Kevin Young
There's just too much evidence in my mind that's leaning towards somebody else did this.
- [06:24]
Narrator
Of course, it's one thing to be suspicious. It's another thing to prove a crime was committed and then prove who did it. It was tough to imagine why anyone would want to murder an elderly man like living by himself. Dr. Young didn't have any enemies, at least none that Kevin knew about. But he did have a 45 year career as an archaeologist. A career that allowed him to collect enough rare and interesting artifacts to fill his house. Ceramic items, copper pots and even ancient crystals were proudly displayed throughout the adobe home. Kevin couldn't help but wonder if some of those artifacts became the spark that lit a flame of animosity towards his father and eventually led to his horrific, fiery death. It was a mystery Kevin dedicated himself to solving. But as the days and weeks dragged on, he had the sinking feeling that for reasons he couldn't explain, he was the only one still seeking justice for his father. I'm Jordan Sillers and this is Blood Trails the Mysterious Death of John Young, Part 1. A modern day indie, John Young grew up in Florence, Arizona in the 1940s and 50s and earned a doctorate in anthropology from the University of Arizona in 1967. But even before his formal training, Kevin says his father had a knack for finding lost things in the dirt.
- [07:50]
Kevin Young
My uncle tells a story about how they used to walk around out in the desert all the time and, and my dad had a knack for finding artifacts, you know, arrowheads and stuff. And he talks about them. They go out hunting, they shoot their.22s and my dad saw something in the distance and shot at it. And when they went over to check it out, it was in a pot. And as they dug up the pot, it was a whole pot. And my uncle still has that pot on his fireplace and New river where he lives, and it's sitting on a shelf with a bullet hole in It. And so he tells stories about how they could go out in the desert and he could take a shovel and throw it in the air and when it landed, he could go dig it up and there'd be an arrowhead or pottery or something.
- [08:40]
Narrator
You can see why. When I first heard about Dr. Young and his case, I thought he sounded like a modern day Indiana Jones. And while I don't think the real life archaeologist ever had to evade a runaway boulder or, or fight ninjas in Cairo, he nonetheless led a fascinating life.
- [08:54]
Kevin Young
Primarily Southwestern history. Is very interested in Native American culture and history. And so he spent a lot of time doing that. I remember when we were really young, they did a. My mom and dad did a dig in Globe. He used to do summer digs and teach summer digs over in Fort Burgwin in Taos, New Mexico. So we'd go there for the summer. I remember our playpen was a kiva that they had excavated. And then they put Sean and my brother and I in there and we just scratch around the walls and my brother found a bone flute in the wall at one time.
- [09:31]
Narrator
Dr. Young moved to Taos full time in 1970 with his wife, who was also an anthropologist, and his two sons. He worked as a director for the Kit Carson Memorial foundation and then as an on staff archaeologist for the Carson National Forest.
- [09:45]
Kevin Young
And part of his job was to. Whenever they're going to put in a road or logging road or something like that, it was his job to walk that and make sure that they weren't going to go through any ruins or, or just, you know, destroy any sites or anything like that.
- [10:04]
Narrator
He spent countless hours in the deserts of the American Southwest searching for and trying to preserve artifacts of the people who lived there long before the Europeans. But he also spent time on those arid landscapes just enjoying the great outdoors.
- [10:19]
Kevin Young
He loved to take us duck hunting and quail hunting. He and his brother, my uncle Rob Young was actually. He retired from game and fish and they used to go javelina hunting and we used to as kids follow them around. I'd go with them and when they shoot some ducks and they're out in the middle of one of those stock tanks or something, we'd have to swim out there and get the ducks and bring them back if we couldn't splash them back or the wind wasn't blowing. Surprised I'm still alive after going in some of those tanks.
- [10:54]
Austin Young
Yeah, well, you're pretending like you didn't make me do it.
- [10:58]
Kevin Young
Yeah, exactly.
- [11:01]
Narrator
That other voice you hear is Austin Young. Kevin's son and Dr. Young's grandson, Austin is now a fishing and hunting guide in Charleston, South Carolina. But he grew up hunting the same patch of public land and his great grandmother hunted before him.
- [11:15]
Austin Young
Our family has hunted the same BLM land out there for, I mean, up to his mother, Grandma Betty, she was hunting. I got her 20 gauge, so she passed that down to me when she passed away. And that's John Young's mother. But she was out there in the desert hunting the same land that grandpa John would hunt. And then he showed us how to hunt it.
- [11:37]
Kevin Young
And yeah, you're the fourth generation hunting those tanks.
- [11:41]
Narrator
The Young's love for hunting and fishing started in the field, but as we at meateer always appreciate, it continued into the kitchen, or in this case, the barbecue pit.
- [11:51]
Kevin Young
We always did a pit barbecue and it started out in Florence and grew so big that we had media there and all kinds of people that we didn't even know, you know, that would show up to barbecue. But we've, they'd always have like javelin. We've had mountain lion, rattlesnake, you know, elk, deer, obviously, all kinds of different game that, that we cook in the pit barbecue. So that's one thing that, that both my uncle and my dad just love to do and host. And I was part of the family in the growing up and Austin even got to partake in a little bit of that. But later in the years, the Young
- [12:32]
Narrator
family was close and Dr. Young included Kevin and his brother in his work, his hunting and his construction projects.
- [12:40]
Kevin Young
The house he's talking about that burnt down, it was a true mud adobe house. So every single adobe that was in that house was made by hand by my mom, my dad, myself and my brother. All the vigas in the ceiling were. We skinned them with draw knives. Then he had split cedar up there. All that cedar was split by hand. So it was quite a chore. It was adventurous. Took us about, about a year to build it. When we moved into it, it wasn't complete yet, so there wasn't any plaster on the mud adobes. And the first night that we spent in the house, my brother and I, they had a bedroom set up in the garage and wood burning stove that was made out of a 50 gallon drum. And you had to keep that burning all night long because otherwise you wake up and it's, you know, five degrees out. Well, the first night we slept there, it snowed and we woke up and we had snow on our beds because it blew in through the cracks in the walls and stuff. So it was quite an adventure.
- [13:49]
Narrator
That garage Kevin and his brother slept in was the same garage their father died in. Four decades later, that house was a fixture in the Young family. And its destruction added an extra note of tragedy to Dr. Young's death. But what was even more disturbing is that something about that fire didn't make sense. And Austin could sense it right away.
- [14:10]
Austin Young
My dad called me while the fire was going on to tell me, you know, grandpa's house is on fire. And I said, well, how bad? And he said, it's fully involved. And so my first thought at that point was that there was something wrong. You know, the. An adobe house shouldn't be burning like that. It would take a really long time. Someone should notice or something, you know. And then as it started going on, I. I realized, you know, there was definitely something wrong if this truck was parked there. All the details that he. My dad was able to give to me, just everything seemed wrong.
- [14:48]
Narrator
Austin had this feeling before he knew anything about accelerants or bullet holes. But once the fire investigator began looking more closely at the burned out scene, he confirmed that the archaeologist father and grandfather almost certainly didn't die in a tragic accident. The problem was no one knew who was responsible for the fire or the investigation into who started it. Part two Falling through the Cracks
- [15:19]
Austin Young
the
- [15:19]
Narrator
first person I wanted to talk to about this case was the fire investigator, Jimmy Vigil. And I'm going to spend some time here explaining what happened because it's important to the story. And what I'm about to say became an unfortunate theme in reporting this episode. Jimmy told me he'd be willing to do an interview, but he first had to get permission from a public information officer, or pio, at the New Mexico State Fire Marshal's office. In this case, that was a woman named Danielle Silva. I first texted Danielle on Friday, January 23rd of this year. She called me back four days later and said she'd be willing to help, but first wanted to get in touch with local law enforcement in Taos. Jimmy had given an interview to the media back in 2019, so his suspicions about the fire were already public knowledge. But I've learned that public information officers are in general, a paranoid bunch, so I wasn't surprised at her caution. But when I tried calling and texting Danielle over the subsequent weeks, she usually didn't respond. On the rare occasions she did, it was just to say she was still working on it and needed more time. Finally, on April 28th, which if you're counting, is three months after my initial contact she said via text. I still don't see enough info on our end to feel comfortable with the interview now. I've been stuck in what I call PR purgatory before, but never to this degree. It was clear that either I was being stonewalled, Danielle wasn't giving me the time of day, or both. Why? I'm not sure. It's not uncommon for law enforcement to be hesitant about talking to the media about a case that wasn't solved, but as you've seen time and again on episodes of this podcast, they usually at least give some kind of statement. I was never able to speak to Jimmy on the record, but Kevin interacted with the fire investigator many times in 2019 and he was able to recall some of those conversations. I was also able to obtain Jimmy's official report requesting a search warrant for Dr. Young's home. I compared that report to Kevin's recollections to verify the details you're about to
- [17:22]
Kevin Young
hear in dealing with Jimmy. Over time, we spent a lot of time communicating back and forth. Jimmy came to the same conclusion that he was 99% sure that it was homicide and not not an accident.
- [17:42]
Narrator
You already heard why Jimmy believed the fire was set intentionally, but the details of that are a little more nuanced. They tested the walls for accelerants, but those tests came back negative. However, Jimmy concluded based on his observations of the walls and ceiling that the fire began in multiple locations almost simultaneously.
- [18:01]
Kevin Young
They could tell by the way the the burn marks were on some of the walls that still were standing. You got to remember the floors are concrete. The flooring was all teal tile. The only room that had wood flooring was my dad's bedroom and our bedrooms on that side of the house. The rest of the house was all concrete, salteal tile and so on. The walls are mud. The only thing that could burn would be the vegas and split cedar in the ceilings. But that fire went from one end of the house to the other within 15 minutes.
- [18:36]
Narrator
The fire spread too quickly to be caused by an electrical short, and Jimmy confirmed that the fire was not sparked by other mechanical failures or a natural event such as a lightning strike. What's more, Kevin explained that if this fire had a less nefarious cause, his father likely would have been able to put it out.
- [18:55]
Kevin Young
He had fire extinguishers in almost every room of the house. He had a brand new fire extinguisher in the back of his Suburban. If he came home and that house was on fire, he would have grabbed his fire extinguisher and, you know, things would have been a little differently.
- [19:12]
Narrator
The fire burned too hot and too fast to be anything other than arson, which was reinforced by the state of Dr. Young's body.
- [19:19]
Lori Pro
His body was very badly burned, meaning that his skin and soft tissues were charred. And specifically this is relevant to the questions about the case, is that his skull had been exposed.
- [19:36]
Narrator
That's Lori Pro, the medical investigator who conducted Dr. Young's autopsy. She explained that the fire was so intense that it burned away the skin and soft tissue on the man's head, revealing what appeared to be a bullet hole.
- [19:49]
Lori Pro
So it was during the process of examining the body and removing organs that I came across this part of the skull that just looked really unusual to me. When I was examining the brain and the bits of the skull bone around it, I came across this area that was very curved and you know, that's unusual for a thermal fracture to appear like that. So I was worried at that point. I thought maybe this person had had a gunshot wound.
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Narrator
More after the break.
- [20:32]
Podcast Host
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- [21:37]
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- [22:15]
Podcast Host
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- [23:42]
Narrator
Normally a medical examiner can identify a gunshot wound to the head based on the injuries to the brain. But the fire had decomposed Dr. Young's brain tissue and Lori wasn't able to find any other injuries such as an exit wound. To confirm that the archaeologist had been shot.
- [23:58]
Lori Pro
We had a forensic anthropologist take a look at the skull and what she did was, you know, clean tissue away from the skull bones and then reconstruct it. So she looked at the skull bones, put everything back together, and her opinion was that the unusual curved defect that I found in the skull was not consistent with a gunshot wound. I relied on her report and Kind of backed off of my initial concerns about a shooting.
- [24:38]
Narrator
I obtained this report from the University of New Mexico. In it, forensic anthropologist Heather Edgar explains that when she pieced the skull back together, she found a fragment that. That covers the circular defect in question. It's unlikely that particular defect was caused by a bullet. But Lori also noted that even after reconstruction, the skull wasn't fully intact.
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Lori Pro
I'm not sure if that defect that I identified, if that represented a gunshot wound.
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Narrator
Right.
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Lori Pro
I'm not sure if it was an exit or entrance. And again, the skull was not intact, so. So it's certainly possible that if it was a gunshot wound that entered and exited, that, you know, one or the other could have been in a part of the skull that was not identified, you know, that was no longer.
- [25:30]
Narrator
Oh, I see.
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Lori Pro
Present to put that together.
- [25:33]
Narrator
In other words, Dr. Young could have been shot in a part of his skull that was never found by investigators. The fire had burned away definite conclusions, which is why in her official report, Lori listed the manner of death as undetermined. What was easier to say with confidence was that the location of Dr. Young's body was highly suspicious.
- [25:53]
Kevin Young
He was wedged between tools. He used to like to go and help with wildfire. So he had mo. Axes. He had other stuff, power tools and stuff like that. And they said that he was wedged in between some. Some tools.
- [26:06]
Narrator
That word wedged jumped out to me. And after reading Jimmy's report, I understood why. He said the location of the deceased was very unusual. As it appeared, the deceased was stuffed in the far right corner of the garage in an upright position. This is speculation, but it seems like if Dr. Young was conscious when the fire started, he wouldn't have just stood there and allowed himself to be burned. He would have gotten on the ground to escape the smoke or just open the garage door. Jimmy also noted in his report the angle and path the deceased took to get to the entrance of the residence from the garage did not make sense to this investigator, as the vehicle was parked on the outside of the garage. Now, I'm not totally clear what Jimmy meant by this, and if I had been allowed to talk to him, I would have asked. But remember how I said first responders found the front door open when they arrived on the scene? Jimmy seems to be suggesting that given Dr. Young's location in the garage, he wasn't the one who opened that front door. If that's true, someone else was there that day, someone who may have been involved in the archaeologist's death. That person would be difficult Enough to find in good conditions. But according to Kevin, we don't even have as much information as we should.
- [27:20]
Kevin Young
There was so many mistakes made. Like, I think there was at least five fire departments that showed up. They thought it was a party. They had their families there. They had kids. They were eating McDonald's and throwing trash on the ground. They trampled everywhere. So they destroyed any potential evidence of what could have helped us. Footprints in the snow, stuff like that. One thing that Jimmy told me, talking with the different fire departments, is they showed up with all the equipment. They could have gone into that house, and they could have searched for my dad. They didn't do that. Jimmy said they peered in through his bedroom windows, and her comment was, well, his bed's made. He made his bed every morning. What's that have to do with him being in the house or not being in the house?
- [28:11]
Narrator
Remember, Kevin was on scene before the fire had been put out, so he saw with his own eyes how the firefighters were acting. But Jimmy's statements are secondhand. So I reached out to the Taos County Fire Department to get there. Reaction? Unfortunately, much like with the New Mexico State Fire Marshal's office, no one agreed to speak to me. If they had, they might have argued that they didn't know the fire would end up being suspicious. They're trained to put out fires, not collect evidence or preserve a crime scene. Normally, that would be a task for detectives with the Taos County Sheriff's Office, but according to Kevin, that didn't happen either.
- [28:46]
Kevin Young
Yeah, the sheriff's department didn't do anything. So I went to the sheriff's department. I talked to him. They, you know, I said one thing I was concerned about is I said, look, why didn't you guys take control of this scene? And they said, we were only there to direct traffic. Traffic on a dirt road? Are you kidding me? And they said, oh, no. The fire marshal was in charge. I told Jimmy that. I said, jimmy, they're blaming you. They said, you should have taken control of the scene. And, yeah, he was very shocked by that, that the sheriff's department said all they were there to do was direct traffic. Really?
- [29:25]
Narrator
If this strikes you as hard to believe, given the evidence of foul play we've covered so far, join the club. I was sure Kevin was mistaken, so I reached out to Taos County Sheriff Steve Meara. Sheriff Mera didn't agree to a recorded interview, but we did have a brief phone conversation. Incredibly, he confirmed what Kevin told me. He said he never opened a case on Dr. Young's death. He said they were just on scene to direct traffic and the investigation was handled by Jimmy with the fire marshal's office. I took what the sheriff said to Danielle Silva, the PIO for the state fire marshal. She said via text quote, we only look for cause and origin of a fire so we wouldn't be the lead on a fatal fire without a law enforcement agency. When I reiterated what the sheriff said, she doubled down. She said the sheriff was mistaken, implying that they weren't responsible for investigating Dr. Young's death. Regular listeners of this podcast know that I try to give law enforcement the benefit of the doubt. Most officers are competent professionals trying their best, and they're sometimes unfairly criticized when a case goes cold. But this case never went cold because it was never opened in the first place. That's why seven years later, covering this story feels a bit like dealing with corporate customer service. Everything is someone else's job, someone else's department. But we're not talking about a medical bill or a new phone plan. We're talking about murder. The idea that a potential homicide could basically fall through the cracks is almost unbelievable. But as far as I can tell, that's exactly what happened. Whatever or whoever killed John Young, the system that was supposed to answer that question chose not to ask it. This story might end here, but thanks to Kevin, it doesn't. He had his own suspicions about what happened to his father, so he decided to take matters into his own hands. Part 3 the artifacts Kevin couldn't think of anyone who might have wanted to kill his father, but his mind kept going back to an interaction he had just a few weeks before Dr. Young was killed.
- [31:34]
Kevin Young
For Christmas, I got my dad two cores of firewood to burn his fireplace. I bought it from Hickory Apache Family
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Narrator
the Hikaria Apache are a federally recognized tribe whose territory comprises about 880,000 acres in north central New Mexico. The tribal headquarters are a two hour drive from Taos, but this family had relatives living in the pueblos just outside town.
- [31:58]
Kevin Young
And my dad loves to talk about, you know, the artifacts and the things that he has and the history and the digging and all that. So he took the wife in, took her around, gave her a tour of stuff and talked to her about everything. And she comes out and she starts helping me unload some of the wood. And eventually she tells me, she goes, you know, we're not supposed to be here. I said, oh really? Why? And she goes, well, because some of the artifacts your dad has in his house have our ancestor spirits in them. Well, your dad's an anthropologist, right? And I said, yeah. And she goes, do you know how your dad is able to have some of that stuff and keep it? And I said, no, you'd have to ask him. I know he used to do trips to Zuni and stuff, and he trade with the elders in Zuni. I know he did a lot of trading, but I didn't know exactly how I got him or how I was able to keep them.
- [32:53]
Narrator
The implication of these questions was clear, but Kevin told me this woman wasn't acting aggressive or insulted.
- [32:59]
Kevin Young
No, she wasn't angry or upset. It was just explaining that this is something we shouldn't see or that we shouldn't be around. It's not like she immediately rushed out or anything, because they even came in the house after we were done unloading the wood and stayed with us for another hour talking.
- [33:18]
Narrator
Dr. Young invited the couple and their kids to share some refreshments.
- [33:22]
Kevin Young
We're all sitting around his table talking and having a good time. And then when they got ready to leave, my dad said, you know, hey, you guys ever come back into town, I want you to come and eat with me. So they all said, oh, yeah, we'd love to. And everything was fine.
- [33:40]
Narrator
The interaction was largely positive, but for Kevin, it was also unsettling. And the timing of it, just two weeks before Dr. Young's Adobe Home burned down, nagged at the back of Kevin's mind. When he started doing more research into the history and beliefs of the Hikaria Apache, he came across something that he believed connected those beliefs to his father's death.
- [34:01]
Kevin Young
One of their biggest fears is, and I don't know if it's a fear or just, you know, a belief or whatever, is when somebody dies, they will burn down their house with all the contents in it, including their favorite horse.
- [34:17]
Narrator
Kevin didn't think that the couple who delivered the firewood was responsible for the fire. At the same time, he couldn't help but wonder if they had told others of the artifacts in his father's home and those people had decided to take action. Kevin didn't have any proof that this happened. It was just a theory, and one that relied on knowledge of a culture that can easily be misunderstood from the outside. So I reached out to Dr. Jeff Blythe, a historic preservation officer for the Hikaria Apache Nation. Dr. Blyth declined to sit down for a recorded interview, but he did comment on the record. He told me that while he sympathizes with the Young's position, he cautioned against drawing definite conclusions from the Apache woman's comments, he said it is common in the archaeological record for homes and possessions to be burned upon abandonment or death. But he pointed out that the practice is far less common today. It's also not done until after a person has already died and the deceased isn't inside the home. He did acknowledge, however, that artifacts are intrinsically related to the place they come from. He said there is concern about things following the artifacts when they're taken that are unhealthy. Modern archaeologists are supposed to take this concern into account, and many do analysis in the field and then rebury those items. We don't know where Dr. Young acquired the artifacts in his home, but seeing them in that location could have surprised and potentially upset his Apache visitors. Of course, there's a huge gap between upset and homicidal. Kevin isn't totally sure what to make of his theory, and frankly, neither am I. I've visited Taos many times. It's a popular summer destination for folks here in Texas. But the opinion of a tourist doesn't mean much. So if you live in this area, I. I'd be curious to hear what you think. Whatever the truth is, Kevin's interaction remains one of the only leads that was actually followed. Kevin said that Jimmy took it seriously and he even interviewed the couple in question. But he didn't get anywhere. So Kevin decided to hire more help.
- [36:20]
David Frazee
I got called in on this a little bit after the police had been over there and had done whatever they were doing. And so I kind of got in it a little bit late.
- [36:32]
Narrator
That's David Frazee, a private investigator Kevin hired to look into his father's death. David spent a career as a professional investigator, first as a lieutenant with the Bernalillo County Sheriff's Department, where He retired after 27 years. Then he trained police in the Middle east for seven years, and today he's running to be sheriff of Torrance County, New Mexico. I say all this to explain that David isn't what you might call a mall cop private eye. He's investigated his share of homicides, and he'd been working as a PI for three years. When Kevin called him, his first task was to find the couple who had delivered firewood and asked them to sit down for an interview. I asked David how the pair seemed when they finally spoke to him at the Jicaria Apache Police Station in Dulce, New Mexico.
- [37:17]
David Frazee
The male was not very talkative. He just wanted to keep quiet, and it was almost like he didn't want his wife to talk. But she was being A little more voiceful. And she would answer my questions, but would offer nothing more than just whatever I asked for. And it was like, we're not afraid of anything. You know, it's kind of like they. They knew that it was not going to go anywhere. We weren't going to find anything. And they were very. They felt confident in themselves that, you know, that they could just give me a little tidbit of information and send me on my way, and it would be. It would be forgotten.
- [38:02]
Narrator
David asked the pair about their visit to Dr. Young's house, and the woman readily acknowledged touring the home and seeing copper pots that reminded her of those in her grandmother's house. She said she could tell they were ancient by the way they were made. She also noticed a crystal that Dr. Young had displayed on some sheepskin.
- [38:20]
David Frazee
There was just one specific piece of crystal is what they were very, very concerned with, that it was the one. One thing that the medicine man had to have in order to heal people.
- [38:37]
Narrator
According to David, the woman stated that the crystal was the most powerful item in the home, and medicine men use similar items to see the spirits of ancestors who are causing medical problems. She also mentioned that these crystals must always stay in the possession of those healers. I read the report David prepared for Kevin, which included some contact information for the couple in question. I sent multiple emails to the address provided, but haven't heard back as of this recording. I'm not naming them because they've never been accused of a crime, and there isn't any hard evidence that they were involved at all. They denied telling anyone about what they saw in Dr. Young's home, but David, like Kevin, believes they told someone else who was responsible for the fire. I think Kevin and Austin recognize how these accusations might be perceived, and they understand that telling this story exposes their father and grandfather to criticism. But they insist that Dr. Young possessed the artifacts in his home not with a sense of entitlement, but with a sense of deep appreciation for. For what they represented.
- [39:40]
Austin Young
He was very much in appreciation of the culture and everything that they did and their connection to the outdoors and how they lived. And I think he tried to actually emulate it in his own life by living way out there in Towson in an adobe house that felt, you know, made right out of the earth, too, and surround himself with the things that he really appreciated. So he not just likes sharing it with people, but it spilled over into his home and everyday life, too.
- [40:11]
Narrator
Kevin might be right about the Apache family who delivered firewood to his father's Home. Or maybe not. Whatever actually happened, part of the reason we don't know is the lack of action from local law enforcement. I asked David about his interactions with the Taos County Sheriff's office, and he spoke from his decades of law enforcement experience.
- [40:31]
David Frazee
Their investigation was almost non existent. I thought they would put somebody on it as an investigator. I didn't see that why they did not want to get involved. I don't know if that's a lack of resources, if they don't have the expertise, why they didn't call the state police to come in. Those are questions I cannot answer.
- [40:53]
Narrator
In his report, David says that the deputy he spoke with made it sound like Jimmy and the state fire marshal's office insisted on taking the case. When I spoke to Sheriff Meara, he implied the same thing. The fire marshals have the case, he said, and they didn't want assistance from the sheriff's office. The problem is, as the spokesperson for the marshals told me, which you heard just a few minutes ago, the agency doesn't investigate homicides without law enforcement involvement. When I relayed this information to the sheriff, he didn't respond.
- [41:25]
David Frazee
Only it's not Jimmy's job. His job is investigate the fire. It boggles my mind how a sheriff would not put a detective on a homicide. I don't get it. I just don't get it. Why? And. And for them to say it's a crime scene, but it's a fire crime scene, we give it to the fire department to do that. This doesn't make any sense to me.
- [41:50]
Narrator
This is even more egregious because there were leads a detective could have tracked down. As a private investigator, David was limited in what he could do. He couldn't arrest people or charge them with a crime. But his investigation still revealed several potential threads that could have been pulled. Dr. Young had neighbors, neighbors who saw the fire, called it in and told David about the individuals hanging around the house in the minutes before the blaze ignited. We'll be right back.
- [42:25]
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- [45:33]
Narrator
Part 4 the burglar in what is the most basic first step of any investigation, David began by knocking on the doors of all the homes around Dr. Young's and asking the residents if they saw anything. One woman who we'll call Stacy, lived down the street from Dr. Young. Around 4:15 on the afternoon of the fire, she saw four or five men in a white pickup truck parked across the street from from her house. She thought they might be construction workers, but they didn't appear to be doing a job at her neighbor's house and it didn't look like anyone was home. One of the men got out of the truck and began talking on a cell phone. According to David, he told Stacy that quote, John's house is on fire and that he, quote, used to work with Dr. John. This man could have been calling the fire department. But a sheriff's deputy told David that the fire was first reported by an unidentified girl. That and then by two employees with the Kit Carson Electric Co Op. The neighbor said that these employees went to Dr. Young's house and yelled, quote, is anyone there? She told David they may have been there prior to the house catching fire and might know if the men in the truck were also there. Earlier that day I asked David whether he was able to track down any of these individuals.
- [46:48]
David Frazee
Of course there's limited information what she, what she saw. I mean, we didn't have anything to go on as far as, you know, even a partial plate number or you know, we just, and I don't think they were even positive on the, the color. It was a light, maybe a white or maybe a silver or something, but a light colored vehicle.
- [47:07]
Narrator
Finding four guys in a light colored pickup might be a challenge for a private investigator, but it seems like the kind of thing local law enforcement would be able to handle, especially if they started the investigation immediately. Those Kit Carson Electric employees might have been an even more promising lead. The company could have identified them easily enough and maybe their statements would have led investigators to someone else who saw the person who started the fire. But as far as I'm aware, none of these leads were tracked down. And believe it or not, they weren't the only ones. Jimmy told David that he believed a thief could have been responsible for Dr. Young's death. Eduardo Rivera was a serial burglar and well known criminal in the Taos area. In 2017, he was charged with breaking and entering, residential burglary, burglary of a motor vehicle, kidnapping and aggravated assault. Then in 2019, Rivera tried to burglarize another home. When the homeowner confronted him, he pulled out a handgun and fled. Two days after Dr. Young's house burned down, he was located by state police at his home, but refused to come out. He was eventually arrested, but only after a five hour standoff with the SWAT team. Jimmy thought that maybe Dr. Young had challenged Rivera while he was robbing his home. But rather than flee the scene, Rivera had attacked the elderly man, robbed him, and then burned the house down to hide evidence of his crime. It was a reasonable theory, but it had a flaw.
- [48:34]
Kevin Young
Not one thing could I determine was missing that had been taken from the house. It looks like everything was there.
- [48:43]
Narrator
Dr. Young had a house full of priceless artifacts. But even if someone like Rivera didn't understand the value of a copper pot or a piece of crystal, there were other items in the home he would have identified as valuable.
- [48:55]
Kevin Young
He had an AK47 that was had 100 round clip that he hung over his fireplace in his bedroom with pride. He had Remington rifles, he had shotguns, he had, you know, everything. Nothing was stolen, nothing was taken. So why would you murder somebody and not take anything? Right?
- [49:17]
Narrator
The fire made it difficult to verify that absolutely nothing was taken. But those firearms, or at least parts of them, survived the blaze, and they would have been a tempting target for a violent convicted felon. When I spoke to David about this case, he reiterated what Kevin told me.
- [49:34]
David Frazee
Nothing else was stolen. I mean, most of the things that were in the house, they sifted through all of the stuff and they were able to find most of the artifacts in the house. They found other things that was in the house that were, you know, very valuable, that there wasn't any evidence of a burglary. There was no evidence of missing property.
- [49:54]
Narrator
You might argue that Rivera or another burglar was in a rush to flee the scene. Maybe he broke into the home but was unexpectedly confronted by Dr. Young. He then incapacitated the elderly man and decided to run rather than steal things on the way out. But that scenario doesn't really account for the fire. Criminals often use fire to hide their crimes. But remember, Dr. Young was breathing after the blaze began. This would be burglar wasn't hiding a murder. So why would he take the time to set the house on fire if he was in too much of a rush to steal anything? Jimmy mentioned Rivera as a possible suspect, and according to David, so did one of the Taos county deputies. The serial burglar was on their radar. But when David asked if he could work alongside the sheriff on the investigation, they shut him down.
- [50:42]
David Frazee
I went up to talk to the sheriff. They said he wasn't in, but they would let me speak with the under sheriff. And then here came a sergeant and said, I'm what you get, take it or leave it. And I started asking him questions about the case and it was very non committal. You're in my way. I wish you would leave. It blew me out of my socks, to be honest. I just can't believe that a. The sheriff himself wouldn't come out and discuss it, nor would the under sheriff come out and discuss it. They send a sergeant out to. To get rid of me. So I got no information, I got no help out of the sheriff's department.
- [51:25]
Narrator
The sheriff didn't mention Rivera in my brief conversation with him, but he did allude to another explanation for what happened to Dr. Young. The agency that declined to investigate had, it turned out, formed a theory. Anyway, maybe, he said, rather than falling victim to an enemy or a violent felon, the 80 year old succumbed to something darker and more difficult to explain. Part five on his own terms.
- [51:55]
Austin Young
My grandfather, he is just one of the most interesting and fun people you can meet. But he. He must have got this from Grandma Betty. But he's just like an ornery fella. He's always been vocal about I'm going out on my own terms. If I'm not going to be in a diaper, I'm not going to be incapacitated, nothing like that. And so I just had a thought, you know, like, did Grandpa, like, feel like it was time or something?
- [52:22]
Narrator
I hope you'll forgive another movie reference, But I imagine Dr. Young a bit like those old fellas in that movie Secondhand Lions. He lived a fascinating life, but it was nearing its twilight. Kevin didn't mention anything about his father having a terminal illness, but Laurie's report did indicate that he was suffering from maladies common to a man who'd taken 80 trips around the sun. He had multiple cysts on his left kidney, which was also significantly smaller than his right. Two of the vertebra in his neck were fused together, which likely caused some pain and stiffness. He Also had some narrowing of the middle right coronary artery, though likely not enough to cause noticeable symptoms. None of these conditions are life threatening or even abnormal. But we also don't have a great read on his mental state. He was living by himself, and it's unclear how much interaction he had with the other members of his community. Jimmy believed Dr. Young was the victim of a burglary gone wrong. But Kevin also mentioned that the fire investigator wondered whether Dr. Young Young had died by suicide.
- [53:23]
Kevin Young
He came to me at the very end and said, look, I can't come up with any conclusions. You know, whether somebody came and started the fire or wood rolled out. Could be that your dad tried to commit suicide and put accelerants in different places.
- [53:39]
Narrator
If Dr. Young decided to go out on his own terms, maybe he decided to make it a spectacle. Suicide by burning is extremely uncommon in Western countries, but attempted suicides in account for 2 to 6% of all burn center admissions, according to a 2013 report. As we covered in episode seven of season one, people suffering mental distress don't always act in ways that make sense or choose the least painful method of ending their lives. But while Kevin acknowledges the possibility that his father took his own life, Dr. Young's actions that day cut against that theory.
- [54:14]
Kevin Young
I got a hold of his credit card statement and I started following everything he did that day. And he had driven into town, he went to a restaurant called Hunan's and he loved their Peking duck. And so he got an order of Peking duck. And on his way home, he always carried a pocket knife in his. In his front pocket. He had opened up the knife and he was cutting pieces of the duck off and eating it that was still inside a Suburban. The knife and the food, the rest of his duck, because he didn't take it in with him. He didn't go in. He stopped at the post office, he checked his mail. There was some food, that stuff that he picked up at the grocery store.
- [54:52]
Narrator
Kevin estimates that his father was gone from his home for about two hours and he wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary until he arrived home. Then he got out of his Suburban, left his food and groceries inside, including a handgun in the driver's side door door and went into his house. He either left the door open on the way in or maybe it was open when he arrived.
- [55:13]
Austin Young
While he's walking around, he's eating Chinese food and he's getting groceries. He's just fine. You know, he's not going to just get groceries and Chinese food and half eat it. And then decide to go out on his own terms with the doors open to everything.
- [55:30]
Narrator
It's an odd sequence of actions for someone who plans to set their house on fire with. With themselves inside. And that idea that the retired archaeologist would intentionally burn up a lifetime of memories, not to mention the house he built himself, is the toughest pill for Kevin to swallow.
- [55:47]
Kevin Young
My dad, he spent his whole life collecting this stuff. He would not burn it up. He wouldn't kill himself that way. Yeah, he'd want his family, his. His kids, his grandkids to. And even. Maybe even have some of that stuff given back to the different tribes or whatever. But he left no suicide note. There was no suicide note. He left no evidence whether Dr. Young
- [56:12]
Narrator
was killed by tribal members upset by his collection of artifacts. A burglar looking for an easy score, or someone else. Kevin believes his father arrived home and was ambushed.
- [56:23]
Kevin Young
My belief is he came home and they were probably in his house starting the fire. And he went in, did unbeknownst, maybe the front door was open. I don't know. Maybe he saw it was open and he went to check and see what was going on. That's why he didn't take his food. That's why he didn't take his groceries. That's. You know, I don't think he thought anything was going on. And they probably ambushed him as he walked in the door. Did they hit him over the head with something and create that hole that looked like a bullet hole? Maybe. Maybe it was a fire, I don't know, but I never got an answer.
- [56:59]
Narrator
There isn't much hard evidence in this case, but there is one piece that backs up Kevin's theory.
- [57:04]
Kevin Young
I was walking around, I was trying to check different things out and see if I. I could find any evidence for Jimmy. I found what was remaining on the pantry door and where the latch is. Somebody had tried to pry it open with a screwdriver.
- [57:22]
Narrator
When Kevin says pantry, he isn't talking about a closet where food is stored. He's talking about an outside door that leads to a mudroom attached to the garage.
- [57:31]
Kevin Young
I called Jimmy and said, hey, look, you know, I found his pantry door, and it's got prime marks from somebody working it with a screwdriver. And so Jimmy came out, took a look at that, took some photos, took that back, and he agreed that it looked like somebody had been working that door with a screwdriver.
- [57:50]
Narrator
I haven't seen these photos myself, but David noted in his report that he was also there when this discovery was made. As a longtime Investigator, he agreed with Kevin's assessment. It looked like someone had at one point tried to break into Dr. Young's home. That, combined with the evidence of accelerants and the hurriedly abandoned SUV, had has convinced almost everyone I spoke with that Dr. Young's death was no suicide. Part six asking for answers I don't know who killed Dr. Young. I'm not sure anyone will ever know. And that's in part because the people whose job it was to find out decided somewhere along the line that it wasn't their problem. In some ways, that's just as disturbing as the murder itself. Today, Kevin and Austin are the only ones actively looking for answers. Austin reached out to me about his grandfather's case because he hopes bringing attention to it will move things forward.
- [58:49]
Austin Young
The goal with this might be to get word out again and hear people talking about it and maybe get someone to say something.
- [58:57]
Narrator
This strategy is always a long shot, but it might be more fruitful than with other cold cases. Beyond a handful of local news articles, this case has garnered almost no media attention. As far as I know, neither the sheriff's office nor the fire marshal put out a press release soliciting leads. There may well be people out there who know something or saw something, but don't realize that this case hasn't been solved. That's why Kevin and Austin are speaking out.
- [59:22]
Austin Young
It would mean a lot to me, but mainly I'd like it for my dad because, I mean, we don't know. You know, it's just. Just imagine if this was your. Your father. I. I do think for whoever's out there, this is something you don't want to go to the grave with and just at the very least, figure out how this fire got started and how my grandpa ended up into the garage where we just like to know some of those facts. And there's someone out there who could probably fill those gaps for us.
- [59:55]
Narrator
Only about 35,000 people live in Taos county full time. It's a small community. Everybody knows everybody, and many are related by blood or marriage. It's also a major tourist destination, and officials are hesitant to highlight issues that might scare away that revenue. Kevin understands how these factors make it less likely that someone will speak up, but he nonetheless pleaded for that someone to come forward.
- [60:19]
Kevin Young
This could have been your father. This could have been your brother. This could have been your uncle. And if that happened to your family, you would want to know. You'd want to know what happened. That's all I want to know is I want to have closure. I want to know what happened to my dad. I want to know, was he tortured? Was he unconscious when he burned?
- [60:39]
Narrator
There is nothing left of the house Dr. Young and his family built just outside Taos, New Mexico. It's just an empty lot surrounded by the sagebrush and sand that make up the high desert plateau. Most of the artifacts he collected are gone, consumed by the same fire that ended his life. But while the physical remnant of his life and work is no more, his legacy lives on in the people he taught, the record of his archaeological finds, and his grandson, who now earns a living sharing his passion for the outdoors with others. Is that where you, Austin, got your love of hunting and your passion for it is, you know, your grandfather and your father taking you out and doing that stuff?
- [61:22]
Austin Young
Yeah, absolutely. There's no question. I don't know how I slipped into the profession of guiding, but it just was kind of out of desperation and thinking, what do I actually love doing? And it just came down to hunting and fishing. That's what I really like doing, and that's what they introduced me to. So I think about it quite often how lucky I am to have been introduced to something like that. And that's probably the only way that I am doing what I'm doing. And I'm just so stoked for what we got going on. Very lucky.
- [62:04]
Narrator
Thanks for listening to this episode of Blood Trails. If you have any information about this case, no matter how minor, send me an email@bloodtrailsmeateer.com I'll make sure it gets to the right place. As a reminder, Dr. John Young's house burned down on January 7, 2019 on Meerlow Road, about five miles north of Taos, New Mexico. If you'd like to see images of Dr. Young, Kevin, and Austin and the burned wreckage of that adobe home, head on over to themateater.com blood trails. I'm sorry to say that this is the last episode of season two. Thank you so much for listening and for all the positive feedback. I'm humbled to be able to share these stories, but I definitely don't do it alone. I've seen quite a few comments praising the production quality of this season. For that, you have Jake Burch to thank for the sound design and Ben McGonnell to thank for the video. They do an incredible job. And if you haven't had a chance to watch the YouTube version of Blood Trails, you're really missing out. Reva Hansen continues to work wonders behind the scenes, making sure each episode comes out on time and managing the new Blood Trails account on Instagram. Give it a follow if you haven't. Lastly, but certainly not least, this podcast would not be nearly as good as without the feedback and encouragement of my wife, Hannah. If you like this podcast, you better hope we never get a divorce. Love you, babe. I'm already working on Season three, which will be releasing this fall. I'm also working on a special miniseries we'll publish this summer, and if there are any major updates in the cases we've covered so far, we'll release standalone episodes. To make sure you're notified whenever we post something new. Be sure to follow Blood Trails on your favorite podcast platform or on YouTube. See you next time. Stay safe out there.
- [64:08]
Podcast Host
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