Apple Debuts iPhone 17 Lineup, Including Skinnier Air Mode

Summary

Bloomberg Businessweek Podcast Episode Summary

Episode Title: Apple Debuts iPhone 17 Lineup, Including Skinnier Air Mode
Hosts: Carol Massar & Tim Stenovec
Date: September 9, 2025
Location: Future Proof, Huntington Beach, California

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into Apple’s major iPhone 17 product launch, featuring the new “skinnier Air” model, with expert analysis from Dan Ives of Wedbush Securities. The discussion touches on Apple’s product strategy, its cautious approach to AI integration, and the broader competitive landscape in technology. The episode also examines investment trends in AI, energy, and private credit, featuring industry leaders such as Jennifer Grancio (TCW), Mark Gado (Scion Investments), and insights on wealth management for the next generation from Doug & Heather Bonaparte.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Apple iPhone 17 Launch & Strategy

Guest: Dan Ives, Global Head of Tech Research, Wedbush Securities
Timestamps: 02:01–07:18

• Product Announcements:

  • iPhone 17 features “skinnier Air” design, with improved durability and camera tech.
  • Pricing: Standard at $799, Air at $999, Pro up $100 but with double the storage.

• Market Analysis:

  • Dan Ives predicts ~315M users are ready to upgrade (“Is the 17 going to get them to upgrade?” 02:59).

  • Sees “pent-up demand,” especially in China; current Wall Street expectations are too conservative.

    “The reality is that this is not going to be a super cycle… but this could be a sneaky upgrade cycle that surprises investors.”
    — Dan Ives (03:03)

• AI Positioning & Google Partnership:

  • Apple’s AI strategy remains “invisible”; company keeps details “close to the vest” (04:51).
  • Anticipated integration with Google Gemini; possible missed advantage by waiting (“Candlelight dinner with Google and Sundar could ultimately start again…” 04:54).

• Competitive Risks & Sentiment:

  • Apple is seen as lagging in the AI arms race (compared to OpenAI, Microsoft, Meta).
  • Ives: “It's kind of a 'go time' moment for Apple" (06:07).
  • On missing the party: “Apple, they're kind of on the outside looking in of that AI party...” (06:07)

2. Worldcoin, Crypto, and the AI-Crypto Intersection

Timestamps: 06:56–08:59

• Dan Ives’ Role with 8co Holdings & Worldcoin:

  • 8co Holdings pursues a “Michael Saylor strategy” but with Worldcoin (not Bitcoin): “Worldcoin is going to be a de facto standard for identification/authentication in AI” (07:18).
  • Focus: privacy, infrastructure, human verification via iris scanning (“Not just a crypto play, but a tech infrastructure play”—07:18).

• Competitive Advantage:

  • “They are miles ahead... I don't see anyone that could catch them and that's why we bet on World as part of the Acre strategy.” (08:32)

3. Investing in the AI Revolution

Timestamps: 08:59–12:23

• Dan Ives’ ETF – Wedbush AI Revolution ETF:

  • Outperforming S&P 500 and NASDAQ 100; holds Broadcom, Google, Nvidia, TSMC, and Apple.
  • Clear separation between ETF management and other ventures (firewalls in place, based on proprietary research: “All based on a research… feet on the ground” – 10:21).

• On distinguishing real AI players:

  “Just because you say AI 40 times in a conference call doesn't make you an AI name… You have to distinguish the winners from the fakes.”
  — Dan Ives (11:39)

• Most Bullish AI Stock:

  “Palantir — that’s going to a trillion [market cap] in the next 2–3 years… The haters hate it at 15, despise it at 80, say it's crazy at 150 — they'll be saying the same at a trillion.”
  — Dan Ives (12:00)

4. Energy, ETFs & Private Credit Investing

Guest: Jennifer Grancio, Global Head of ETFs, TCW
Timestamps: 15:21–22:46

• TCW’s Broad Investment Focus:

  • Emphasizing energy transition: oil, nuclear, renewables (“Transcends administrations; it’s a long-run game” 17:31).
  • Preference for “concentrated portfolios” for diversification beyond core index funds (16:30).

• Private Credit Growth:

  • Huge demand in private credit and fixed income (especially by wealth managers) (19:22).

    “Private credit by far is the place people are most interested in, most increasing allocations in.”
    — Jennifer Grancio (20:16)

• Investor Education:

  • Stresses importance of understanding illiquidity risks in private credit (20:43).

• AI Investing:

  • TCW offers broad-based AI ETF: “Yes it holds Nvidia, but also Broadcom and other early winners” (21:45).
  • Wealth advisors are trying to figure out how AI fits into their own businesses, with interest in outsourcing and tech (22:18).

5. Wealth Management for “Unprecedented Times”

Guest: Doug & Heather Bonaparte, Bonafide Wealth
Timestamps: 23:15–31:50

• Target Demographic:

  • Focus on “Older Millennials” (average client age 40-42). “We start off our adult lives and our careers in 2008… start raising kids during a pandemic — can we get a break here?” —Doug Bonaparte (23:49)
  • 80% of clients are age 28–50; many are “HENRYs” (High Earner, Not Rich Yet).

• Building Client Loyalty:

  • Early involvement leads to long-term relationships: “You're likely to have a stickier, more loyal relationship” (26:58).
  • Importance of including both partners in the financial planning process; gender dynamics; promoting financial equity within families.

• Transparency and Financial Influencers:

  • Heather: “You have to be cautious with ‘finfluencers’ who say everyone should always do this… extremes are dangerous” (25:46).

• Money Dates:

  • Practical advice for couples: regular, enjoyable meetings to discuss money; “Start the conversations with the wins and what you did right” (28:51).
  • Not always easy, but vital for financial harmony and cooperation (29:31).

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6. Private Credit & Infrastructure: Current Climate

Guest: Mark Gado, Co-CEO, Scion Investments
Timestamps: 34:43–45:24

• Scion’s Focus & Product Structures:

  • Three major funds targeting individual investors via RIA/wealth channels, not just institutions.
  • Innovative products offer “appropriate liquidity” with regular distributions; avoids the lock-up problems typical in private credit.

• Market Risks & Resilience:

  • Acknowledges economic softening (“word that describes the environment is ‘uncertain’,” 44:45); sees resilience in US middle market (“They have been able to do it”—debt repayments, 39:00).

    “It's really important to tie yourself to a good manager… someone that is very experienced in the industry, knows how to underwrite.”
    — Mark Gado (38:34)

• Why Are Banks Out?:

  • Banks regulated out of the middle-market lending business since GFC; now “don’t have the expertise anymore” (39:56).

• Infrastructure:

  • Diversified approach with international projects; involvement in London M25, airport terminals, AI/data infrastructure (42:12).
  • Political risk hedged via diversification: “We don't view it as a risk because we are investing in different areas of infrastructure…” (43:45).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Dan Ives on Apple’s AI Position

• “Every Apple event feels like…Back to the Future — they continue to be left behind on AI.” (03:03)
• “I'd rather go to the place where people are lining up outside... When it comes to AI, time’s not on their side.” (06:07)

On ETF Management & Transparency

• “Part of how we've gotten so... much reception for the ETF is because it's our 30 names that ultimately we've used the winners and we change that every quarter.” — Dan Ives (10:21)

On Avoiding Hype in AI Investing

• "Just because you say 'AI' 40 times in a conference call doesn’t make you an AI name." — Dan Ives (11:39)

Jennifer Grancio on Private Credit

• “Private credit by far is the place that people are most interested in, most increasing allocations in.” (20:16)

Doug Bonaparte on Working with Young Clients:

• "When you're there with somebody in the days that they're grinding it out... you're likely to have a stickier, more loyal relationship." (26:58)

Mark Gado on Private Credit’s Uncertain Environment

• "The word that describes the environment is 'uncertain'... information moves too quickly, the economy is too interconnected... So we fall back to diversification, and we like alternatives for our clients." (44:45)

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Additional Insights

• Throughout, the guests highlight the importance of adaptation, education, and transparency in navigating today’s rapidly shifting tech and investment landscape.
• Diversification—be it in private credit, AI, infrastructure, or ETF holdings—is cited as the key risk mitigation tool in times of economic uncertainty.
• The intersection of AI and cryptocurrency is increasingly prominent, exemplified by Worldcoin’s ambitions in digital ID.

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Timestamps by Segment

| Segment | Start | End | |--------------------------------------------------|--------|--------| | Apple iPhone 17 Intro & Analysis | 02:01 | 06:56 | | AI, Google Gemini, & Apple’s Invisible Strategy | 04:35 | 06:56 | | Worldcoin, AI x Crypto Trend | 06:56 | 08:59 | | AI ETFs, Investing Philosophy | 08:59 | 12:23 | | Energy, ETFs, Private Credit (TCW) | 15:21 | 22:46 | | Wealth Mgmt for Millennials (Bonaparte) | 23:15 | 31:50 | | Private Credit & Infrastructure (Scion) | 34:43 | 45:24 |

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rich, candid look at Apple’s strategic dilemmas, key investing themes in AI and energy, and practical wisdom for both institutional and individual investors. Through expert voices, listeners get a roadmap for the current era—where tech, finance, and personal priorities intersect amid uncertainty and opportunity.

Transcript

[Carol Massar]

Pinpointing the genetic changes that predispose us to disease identifying the roots of mental illness treating congenital anomalies even before birth at boston children's hospital we're investing in children's health today to ensure the well being of adults tomorrow as home to the world's largest pediatric research enterprise and more than two hundred sixty specialty programs boston children's is where the world comes for answers learn more at bostonchildrens dot.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Announcer]

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[Metronome AI Representative]

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[Dan Ives]

That means your team is stuck gluing.

[Metronome AI Representative]

Code together piecing through spreadsheets and running.

[Dan Ives]

Ad hoc queries just to figure out.

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[Mark Gado]

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[Metronome AI Representative]

As launch products that's metronome dot com.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Announcer]

Bloomberg audio studios podcasts radio news this is bloomberg businessweek daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people companies and trends shaping today's complex economy plus global business finance and tech news as it happens the bloomberg business week daily podcast with carol massar and tim stanweck on.

[Tim Stanwick]

Bloomberg radio we've been all in on apple today the company out with biggest product launch of the year the iphone seventeen a skinnier air design it improves durability and camera tech as far as prices go seven hundred ninety nine is the starting price of the standard phone the new air version will cost nine hundred ninety nine the pro is going to go up by dollar one hundred with twice as much storage i want to bring in dan ives he's global head of technology research at wedbush securities he's also chairman of eight co holdings soared over three thousand percent after announcing a plan to buy the news just a little bit by openai sam all but that was yesterday dan's here on site at future proof in huntington beach we're going to talk about a co holdings in a minute but first i just want to get your reaction to apple because you you actually i saw you you were on your laptop and then i got your most recent apple note well while we were doing our interview with barry you just you just you're maintaining your price target on apple you and the team at wedbush estimate there are three hundred fifteen million folks out there who are ready to upgrade their iphones is the seventeen going to.

[Dan Ives]

Get them to upgrade look i think it's going to move the needle i mean i think especially in china there's definitely what i saw pent up demand i think street numbers continue to be pretty conservative to maybe lower and i know that's a great setup look the reality is that this is not going to be a super cycle there's nothing here that makes you think that this is going to be the game changer everyone's been waiting for but i do believe given the install base given some of the tweaks here and ultimately on the i'm sort of the second half of this upgrade cycle you will have an ai driven ecosystem i believe will be google gemini this could be a sneaky upgrade cycle that i think surprises investors on the upside what do you mean because right now expectations new york city cab drivers bearish on apple and i think that what i like about the setup is it's all about it's kind of left behind now a lot of that's been self inflicted because every apple event feels like it's a i feel like michael j fox and back to the future you know so there they continue to be left behind ai but now with the google doj issue in the rear view they will double down ultimately that gemini partnership and when you look at the install base i think street is underestimating what numbers look like for for iphone when you look at over the next six nine twelve months and i think in big tech i view apple from a sentiment perspective relative to where i viewed alphabet maybe about six months ago you in your.

[Tim Stanwick]

Note ahead of the launch called apple's ai strategy quote invisible you said the elephant in the room and is the black over the stock ai's invisible or apple's invisible ai strategy did you get any more information today at the launch.

[Dan Ives]

About its strategy i mean i think fundamentally it they're keeping it close to the vest right like in other words it's continues to be that black cloud i think they're waiting for ultimately what's going to be gemini because i think they had a choice either go down the route with perplexity and ultimately look to acquire that or if it was a favorable ruling then the candlelight dinner with google and sundar could ultimately start again and then you could actually double down that partnership and that is i believe the direction but look tim they got was a black eye moment a year ago when they laid out the ai strategy made ninety five percent that had a backtrack on well now and.

[Tim Stanwick]

Now they've lost a lot of the senior executives that were working on that.

[Dan Ives]

To metaflow and we've talked about there's a better chance of me playing ryder cup beth page than any internal ai strategy happening at apple but is that.

[Carol Massar]

Such a bad thing and this is one of the things that dan we talk a lot about that maybe apple's just kind of watching there's a lot of money sloshing around trying to figure out what ultimately are the standards the methods the companies that really dominate right in terms of ai kind of protocols and maybe apple's like i'll just watch and then we'll figure it out is.

[Dan Ives]

That bad i think it's bad i compare it to like saturday night in new york city there's a restaurant where there's one person in there at eight thirty like oh they must know something everyone else does i'd rather go to the place where people are lining up outside when it comes to ultimately ai times not on their side look what open ai look at meta wartime ceo look at microsoft look look what google's done that's why an all time high so i do believe cooks recognize this but the problem is is that now it's a go time moment when it comes to ai and that look we've talked about that's how you get to three hundred twenty five three hundred fifty four hundred dollars stock is ai you know relative to right now apple they're kind on the outside looking in of that a party where it's still ten pm going to four am everyone wants.

[Tim Stanwick]

To know about what the heck is going on over at eight co holdings your chairman of this company now i think it took a lot of people by surprise it's a crypto treasury firm and for those who aren't familiar with the way this works it's a michael saylor strategy but with a different cryptocurrency this is worldcoin backed by sam altman eyeball scanning stuff what is going on.

[Dan Ives]

Here so i wouldn't have done this as chairman if it was just a regular token dax strategy the reason i did this it has to do with sam it has to do with my view world is going to be a de facto standard for identification authentication in terms of human proof in ai world this is much more of a tech infrastructure play than when i'd say a traditional crypto play so obviously the reason i'm so excited about it is really this is going to become i think a huge part of the story and the narrative it's really an intersection of ai and crypto that explain that dan so what that means is you know as tim it's iris skin the orbs right going forward in the future especially in a robotic world bots everywhere you're not going to be able to just identify through boot check it's really going to be iris scanning what they've done already fifteen million humans on the platform i believe going to about one hundred million over the next year that's going to be a form of identification that's probably the most privacy lockbox out there and it's secured by a token a world token so my view and our view as a team this is early days in terms of where this is all heading and that's why we want to do the strategy now what's to.

[Carol Massar]

Prevent somebody else from doing the same.

[Dan Ives]

Thing they are they're playing a different game than they are they're in video in twenty twenty two in other words relative to what sam alex and the team have built out i mean from an infrastructure and authentication perspective they are i think miles ahead i don't see anyone that could catch them and that's why we bet on world as part of the acre strategy and obviously having someone like tom lee and bit miner huge big investor that's another support that we're so excited to have you've also.

[Tim Stanwick]

Got an etf that launched back in june it's the dan ives wedbush ai revolution etf it's up sixteen percent since launch it's outperforming the s and p five hundred and the nasdaq one hundred broadcom google nvidia tsmc apple they're the top holdings somebody watching right now might be like okay he's got a clothing company he's chairman of this crypto treasury company he has his day job at wedbush how am i sure that he's going to manage this etf and have the time and resources to manage this etf in my interest that's a great.

[Dan Ives]

Question i'd say when you think about my chairman role it's all related to ai and the infrastructure in other words this is interrelated to my view of where the ai revolution gets built out and the reality is that ninety five percent of my time is spent you know three and a half million air miles the last twenty five years i think what's what's enabled to distinguish us is feet on the ground talking whether it's private public partners and really you know i think that's how investors have grown to do you add it do.

[Tim Stanwick]

You add aitco holdings to the ives.

[Dan Ives]

Etf no no that would be a totally it's a total separate operation how.

[Carol Massar]

Do you keep firewalls between it yeah like there's going to be people are saying yeah of course dan's going to talk up that he loves alphabet and that he loves nvidia i mean he's got an etf like i've just how.

[Dan Ives]

Do we know on the etf and.

[Carol Massar]

That'S we lean on you for like.

[Dan Ives]

And remember and part of how investors know as the etf is all based on arrives thirty it's all based on a research so the reality is i think part of how we've gotten so you know the the customer i'd say from an investor perspective we've had massive you know i think reception for the etf is because it's our thirty names that ultimately we've used the winners and we do and we change that every quarter and that's i think you talk about etf what it's based on it's all based on the research and got everyone here that knows dan ives they know like feet on the street not sitting there in some peter millar fifteen four of a new york city office building and the only time you travel is two times in san francisco now.

[Tim Stanwick]

You just got back from australia yeah.

[Dan Ives]

So i literally landed here from australia.

[Tim Stanwick]

What were you doing there yeah so.

[Dan Ives]

Part part work part pleasure so it's fun because look i mean we when we talk ai revolution like in sydney in melbourne packed meetings because the reality is that this is not just us and that's why i spend so much of my time traveling around the globe.

[Carol Massar]

What might be the irrational exuberance part of kind of the trade today or the tech trade or the ai trade and just got about thirty seconds there's got to be some fluff out just.

[Dan Ives]

Because you say i forty times in a conference call doesn't make yourself an ai name look just because like tim he was wearing an ai shirt because he says it fifteen times and says tim on the back ai it doesn't my view is you have to distinguish the winners and the real ones from the fakes and that's the reality that's what we spend all of our time.

[Tim Stanwick]

Doing the one company you're most bullish.

[Dan Ives]

On right now public company massive palantir that's going to a trillion next to three years and i always say the haters hate it hate it fifteen despise it eighty say it's super expensive one hundred fifty they'll be seeing the same thing at a trillion yeah it's a.

[Carol Massar]

Company we've talked a lot about i would say in the last year and then some den ives thank you so much always appreciate it global head of technology research and wedbush securities stay with.

[Tim Stanwick]

Us more from bloomberg businessweek daily coming up after this.

[Carol Massar]

Pinpointing the genetic changes that predispose us to disease identifying the.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Announcer]

Roots of mental illness treating congenital anomalies.

[Carol Massar]

Even before birth at boston children's hospital we're investing in children's health today to ensure the well being of adults tomorrow as home to the world's largest pediatric research enterprise and more than two hundred and sixty specialty programs boston children's is where the world comes for answers learn more at bostonchildrens dot org.

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[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Announcer]

Bloomberg businessweek daily podcast catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five eastern listen on apple carplay and android auto with the bloomberg business app or watch us live on youtube.

[Carol Massar]

Jennifer grandcio is back with us global head of etf's over at tcw they've got more than two hundred billion across investment solutions as as of the mid of this year midpoint etf platforms have more than four billion a lot under management they see a lot of flows we want to remind everybody to jennifer the former ceo of the impact investment firm engine number one which took on excellent on you're going to be iconic forever this is going to go with you wherever you go because it was really significant i.

[Tim Stanwick]

Think also i think also you joined us at milken during that time when you guys were in the midst of that and that's where sort of like i still know you from i think people still know you from that as.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

Carol mentioned yeah i mean engine number one was a moment in time where i think we had just started to think about energy transition at a very big level it's not not just green it's brown and that it's going to require so much to move the world towards better sources of energy electrification all the power we need for restoring in the us so yeah that was it was a great moment in time and then we folded in a lot of the work we had done there into.

[Carol Massar]

Tcw we'll talk about what you are doing because energy is a big theme in terms of investing here for you.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

Guys for sure so if you think about the world today as much as it's volatile and we're never sure exactly what's going to happen or how things are going to play out if you think about tcw we started as an equity firm and then we've got a great public private credit business and so on the equity side a lot of what we do is fundamental concentrated portfolios that help you diversify from the index fund and the direct indexing you have at the core because the market is broadening and we have a huge opportunity as investors to actually take advantage of of how do you profit from the fact that we're seeing different sources of energy and we have a huge demand for energy for ai in data centers but also for the reshoring of manufacturing.

[Tim Stanwick]

How do you do that in an environment where the administration depending on who's in the white house changes their view on the future of energy like does a one hundred eighty i mean you have the president wanting to actually doing it trying to cancel offshore wind projects and really anything that isn't oil it seems like he's not interested in safer nuclear but that's a bigger time time.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

Horizon time yeah but that's how we think about it so from a tcw perspective we've been investing in the energy and power transition we do that through the etf powered pr pwrd pardon me but when we think about that that's a very long trend so that's over decades and decades and so the way we think about it is we as managers want to invest for you so that we're paying attention to one administration to the other and what happens and there will be some changes but if you think about the changes in the traditional brown so that they can electrify and be more productive in a market like the permian on oil that's really important nuclear is incredibly important and then what trump said on actually supporting more nuclear yeah it's a long run game but that's great intermittent power so we like to think about it very broadly and it transcends administrations but does it.

[Tim Stanwick]

Mean you ignore wind and solar that's.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

Part that can be part of our portfolio as well we're looking at things that from a very long term perspective.

[Tim Stanwick]

Will make sense and you think even though wind is under so much pressure right now in a different administration it.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Could come back it will be part.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

Of the solution it's not the lead place to make money in the next couple of years and we're active managers so we can take that into account in terms of the way we manage.

[Carol Massar]

The portfolio where is money going across your platforms where are the flows going in where the flows coming out we.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

Would see if i if i if i answer it maybe at an industry question and then i can talk about cw we see active equity is tough so in active equity investments are very selective so what we're doing in active equity products like powered or i they're selective they're meant to be complementing to big index holdings and on fixed income like a lot of money continues to come in to fixed income and continues to get come into active fixed income we're also big in private credit not in the etf space and products that are appropriate there but both fixed income and private credit are probably the places we see the most money coming in.

[Carol Massar]

Really not surprising it feels like everything is private credit i mean i don't.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

Like how it does but on the other hand it's early so if you think about if you think about the portfolio and you think about it biggest institutions in the world they're invested in some kinds of private credit but they're looking to get into private abf because it's diversifying but in wealth portfolios if you think about the average investor or registered investment advisors they're looking at how to take advantage of returns that can be like our our our core plus income etf flexor you know that's returning almost seven percent with over five percent annual yield that's very attractive when you move into safe controlled careful private credit you're still picking up multiple percentage points a year so people should do it carefully but it's a big opportunity do.

[Tim Stanwick]

You see that opportunity continuing to grow in a weakening environment we do it's.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

If again if you go out and you survey there's a mckinsey report that just came out surveying institutions and wealth and private credit by far is the place that people are most interested in most increasing allocations in what confidence do.

[Carol Massar]

You have that we have the right regulatory oversight on this in a world where private credit still there is a lack of transparency and people don't maybe not all investors understand that it's not liquid like a lot of other investments.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

It'S the right question which is from a responsibility perspective as asset managers or for wealth managers we should always be in a dialogue with clients on do they understand illiquids when you do a semi liquid product for example for us we have things that have many many year five plus year drawdowns that's not a liquid product we wouldn't tell clients that that's a liquid product in the asset backed finance space we have an interval fund but the loans there are getting kind of turning over within two to four years so there's a little bit more liquidity there so i think we'll watch the regulatory space but investor education and responsibility by the managers is.

[Carol Massar]

Critical so when it comes to private credit you're looking for things where it is two to four years that they're turning over a little bit more liquid.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

That'S a little bit more liquid and if you think about private credit in the private securitized or asset backed finance space the loans are self amortizing in two to four years that's a space we think an interval fund makes sense we manage an interval fund there there are other places where it's just not that liquid and that should be a.

[Tim Stanwick]

Private market product still a lot of interest in ai and the fund that.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

Tracks that a huge amount of interest in ai and i think everybody's interested in one what's happening with ai who wins what happens but people are also looking at how to invest in it so at tcw we manage an etfd which is investing very broadly in ai and that's an opportunity to take advantage of yes it holds nvidia but it also holds broadcom and other companies that are benefiting and early winners in the.

[Carol Massar]

Trade when you come to an event like this i mean is there a narrative you're picking up on that might be something surprising i'm just curious just got about thirty seconds here i think.

[Jennifer Grandcio]

From a from this this conference which is full of wealth advisors they are trying to figure out how does artificial intelligence affect their business how do they get smarter about it and how can they adopt new outsourcing and new technologies so that they can spend more time actually serving their clients which is a great thing which is a great thing.

[Carol Massar]

More time with the investment advisors always good to get more time with you thank you so much you will find it jennifer grandc she's global head of etf's over at tcw joining us on.

[Tim Stanwick]

Site at future stay with us more from bloomberg businessweek daily coming up after this.

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[Carol Massar]

Carol massar tim stanwick live here at future proof in huntington beach california will our next guests help others manage their money their content creators at the same time with us here at future proof is doug and heather bonaparte of bonafide wealth doug is founder and president heather is director of business and legal affairs doug is a wealth advisor heather a former attorney corporate attorney big time in the insurance industry and the firm has about one hundred million in assets under management nice to have you here i know it's busy for you you've got a lot going on your website now it's a wealth management firm built on unprecedented times walk us through what that.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Means doug yeah absolutely so you look to older millennials like ourselves the geriatric.

[Tim Stanwick]

Millennials if you will speaking my language.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Yeah yeah we start off our adult lives and our careers in two thousand eight i know i literally moved to new york city and yeah october two thousand eight to work in finance in new york city great time to be you know getting that started and then we survive that get through that only to you know start raising kids during a pandemic can we get a break here so you know two major historical once in a lifetime events happening and this is what we've had to navigate doesn't make us any more special than other generations it's just very special specific to how we manage our lives and our financial lives during these times to.

[Tim Stanwick]

What extent do your clientele actually resent represent that demographics i would say eighty.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Percent are between the ages of twenty eight to fifty so with that average being right around forty forty two i.

[Tim Stanwick]

Think people know you guys from social media like that's fair the jokes on twitter how much of customer acquisition comes from social media so i like to.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Think of it as one piece of the overall puzzle here we're doing you know very traditional mainstream financial media and you pair that with social media it's never one thing are you calling us traditional no i'm calling you awesome okay just we need you we need all of these kids yeah i know but we need all of these tools to create you know a robust way to market in the internet era right and the intention of the attention economy that we're in well one of the things.

[Carol Massar]

I was thinking and it was funny people people have come up to me about truth in today's society and just with the political environment and just there's so much content even when it comes to business advice and how do you make sure that what you're putting out there you're careful about it there's transparency because there's a lot of information that's out there that is not good yeah.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Heather can talk to that in terms of you know we talk about financial influencers all the time and those who are licensed and those who aren't you're getting more information on the reddit and the tiktoks and you and i look at those videos and that content all the time and we have opinions around.

[Heather Bonaparte]

That i think it's very important that you don't end up on the extreme ends of the scale right when we talk we try and tell people look there isn't one right way for everyone so i i think you have to be cautious when you see let's say a finfluencer online who says everyone should.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Always do this or you should extremes.

[Heather Bonaparte]

Be in a position to do that you know that this is the only.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Product for you they're trying to sell sell you that product right here and i know a lot of financial creators that are so hardworking it is it is tough to do this right a lot of respect to them but when you get into those extremes or you're pushing products or there are no guardrails whatsoever it can get dangerous here and there's just not enough of the hybrid you can be both you can be a professional and a content creator you can do all of these things but people tend to just stick to their.

[Tim Stanwick]

Corners i think so if we think about your your clients it's it's different in the sense of of you know we're we're oftentimes talking to wealth managers who have you know five ten one hundred billion dollars in assets under management i mean much bigger than where you guys are right now so you're at a different end of the spectrum and your clientele represent that i think people might say okay these are a lot of these folks are henry's right high income not yet rich right yeah whatever the acronym is how do you keep them when they do become rich yeah.

[Doug Bonaparte]

I think we have less of that problem when you're there with somebody in the days that they're grinding it out and establishing themselves you're likely to have a stickier relationship a more loyal relationship you meet someone after they've made their money i think you have a weaker relationship you were not there for the time you're as good as your last transaction that is the worst place you want to be as a wealth manager as good as your last transaction as someone who's been at the core of their growth and having that kind of relationship so you know by design investing in our clients at a time when we were in our mid to late twenties that's how we keep them for you know generations their children are our clients they are also nine years old but they're they're our clients and they will be and that can then transcend down and we don't have to worry about maybe some of our colleagues that haven't been paying attention to the next generation they have seventy eighty year old clients they have issues with retaining the money because they didn't even bring their partner to the table table yeah and like these gender trumps a lot of why we've written a book about love and money is to solve that problem bring both partners to the table and that's very characteristic of the type of clients that we serve you have a.

[Carol Massar]

New book coming out too i think in october money together but i want to ask you about the quarterly check ins i do think this is such no money dates yet tell us about these money dates in terms of what you guys do in terms of your own financial planning well for us we.

[Heather Bonaparte]

Try and do something that we could look forward to so doug and i know what we like to do right we like to go for walks that's just maybe that's like a leftover thing from co from co and strollers around.

[Doug Bonaparte]

The neighborhood drinks too we like we.

[Heather Bonaparte]

Like cocktails too so like we'll go out for for a nice cocktail or we will go for a walk or we'll go play tennis and be sure to leave twenty minutes on the back end to have a good conversation after we've like sweated out a little bit i think the most important thing with money dates is to do what you enjoy so this doesn't become something that is a chore something that you dread you want to incorporate the money conversation.

[Carol Massar]

Into your life does it always go.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Well no of course not you're talking about actual decisions you need to make that involve risk and charting the course of your life different priorities sometimes of course how about this to heather's point start the conversations with the wins and what you did right you're going to have a better time getting into it and then talk about where room for improvement needs to be made then be critical give yourself a pat on the back and the hard work you're doing before you get into that stuff so you reduce the probability that you're going to get into some kind of scuffle around something that you don't agree on and it's very normal to find stuff you don't agree on if you're agreeing to everything i'd be a little more.

[Heather Bonaparte]

Concerned about that well right and our concept of a money date doesn't just include looking at a net worth table.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Looking at spending don't start there don't.

[Heather Bonaparte]

Start there you can talk about childcare talk about whether you both feel like your bandwidth like you have any bandwidth or you don't or whether you feel totally overwhelmed you could talk about goals you talk about how like doug said the things you've been doing right and the things you could stand to improve upon for the next quarter we rather.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Talk about how we're going to get on that trip with the kids you know during november when the teachers do their convention thing in new jersey and we rather you know we're going to rally around that conversation because we want to go have that experience with them and that then dovetails into okay let's see how we can afford to do that what do we have to shift around all right let's cancel this babysitter let's not do that date with our friends because we much rather you know we can do that anytime you can't create those memories you know all the time with your little kids so those are great ways to engage something where most people like here's what you did wrong this month sweetie like what an awful awful way to start out you're not going to do it next quarter and you need four quarters in a year you know two years is only eight cracks at it it's not a.

[Carol Massar]

Lot it's practical but it makes an awful lot of sense doug we're going to let you go because you got to run to your panel good luck.

[Doug Bonaparte]

With it thank you thank you heather's.

[Tim Stanwick]

Here for you heather you're not so.

[Doug Bonaparte]

Lucky you're stuck good luck babe good.

[Carol Massar]

Luck with the panel absolutely we do want to stay with you you know heather because you do have this book coming out in october money together how to find fairness in your relationship and become an unstoppable financial team and i just think it's kind of interesting because i do think a lot of couples do have different priorities right and they.

[Heather Bonaparte]

Figure it out they sure do tell.

[Carol Massar]

Us about this book though and what you guys wanted to do with it.

[Heather Bonaparte]

We want to help couples communicate about money better bottom line i think that it's one of the hardest things for couples to talk about because money is not just money right we tether our beliefs and our behaviors around money they come they come along with a host of feelings about trust freedom power independence you know so when when you're actually getting in a little spat you know week to week on spending that's not really what you're talking about there might be feelings but beneath that there could be a spouse who doesn't feel like all of their invisible work is being seen so what we really hope to do with this book is to have the conversations that aren't being had we want to really uncover those you know deeper power dynamics over money in your relationship and help couples find a way to talk about it in hopes that we can level that playing field and really bring more equity into relationships well.

[Tim Stanwick]

When the book comes out you got to join us in the studio back in new york heather bonaparte director of business and at legal affairs for bonafide wealth she joins us on site here in huntington beach california for future proof stay with us more from bloomberg businessweek daily coming up after this.

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[Carol Massar]

All right folks we're going to talk a little bit about the world of private credit it has ballooned by the way to about one point seven trillion dollars in a size in size in just a matter of a year there's a lot of issues going on in this environment most loans held in private credit funds mature within five to seven years it's a time frame for when investors should start seeing many more returns but many vehicles formed eight years ago still lagging on a closely watched metric known as distribution to paid in capital which measures how much investors have received compared to what they put in originally we're curious what our next guest has to say he is a player in the private credit world marc gado is co founder co president and co ceo of scion investments which specializes in alternative assets in particular private credit or private debt the firm has about ten billion in assets under management mark is also director co ceo an investment allocation committee member of the scion aries diversified credit fund so you know a little bit about credit how are you tell us a little bit about your fund in the strategy right now i'm doing well.

[Mark Gado]

Thank you for having me today so our platform is really focused on providing alternative investment solutions to private wealth investors individual investors so where a lot of the private firms private asset managers that that dealing private credit and other strategies focus on institutional clients our focus is on individuals and we distribute our products through the wealth channel the rias the wirehouses independent broker dealers we currently have three products that we're very proud of one is our publicly listed bdc which is called scion investment corp and that's a strategy where we focus on the us middle market providing direct lending private loans to us middle market companies we also have a diversified credit fund and that's a partnership that we have with ares management one of the world's largest global investors top tier in credit and that fund is structured as an interval fund and we have close to eight billion dollars of aum in that product.

[Carol Massar]

So that's the big one that's the.

[Mark Gado]

Big one that's the big one and then we just recently launched it's not private credit but it's private assets private private markets we launched an interval fund that focus on infrastructure investing so we are all in on private markets but we're also very focused on the right structures for the individual investor the stat that you mentioned earlier about capital effectively being locked up right that's not what we do we really focus on strategies that provide appropriate liquidity as i like to call it appropriate liquidity to individual investors so the interval fund structure the bdc structure what we do is we are giving dividends we're giving distributions on a regular basis and that's something we pride ourselves in is consistent stable dividends that are necessary i think for the retail investors which you really got laid.

[Carol Massar]

Out on your website yes absolutely so.

[Mark Gado]

When you think about investing in one of our products you're going to see hopefully a high single digit distribution yield every year so you're getting your capital back where traditional private credit was done in a gp lp drawdown structure and your capital could be locked up for for a long time and and because of these structures we're seeing this strong demand by registered investment advisors other financial advisors that deal with individuals and that's what these products really are doing they're opening the gate right they're providing the access that individuals never had the growth.

[Tim Stanwick]

Of private private credit over the last few years has coincided with a pretty strong economy and we're now starting to see some cracks form we saw the revisions downward with the labor numbers that we got today jamie dimon telling cnbc today that the economy is quote weakening he said whether that is on the way to recession or just weakening i don't know what happens to private credit in an environment that's weakening economy that's.

[Carol Massar]

We can your strategy specifically so i.

[Mark Gado]

Think that obviously there'll be some winners and losers but i don't i don't think the market craters so it's really important to tie yourself to a good manager someone that is very experienced in the industry knows how to underwrite knows how to be selective can generate opportunities that make sense for the investor well.

[Tim Stanwick]

Because the concern is that the folks who have been let money will not be able to pay that money back.

[Mark Gado]

Yeah and that's been a theme that's going on for for some time now right we've been having this conversation for a long time and people got really spooked when interest rates spiked and how are these companies going to afford their debt payments and the reality is that they have they have been able to do it and i think a lot of the us middle market is is very resilient and when you think about the assets that that we focus on in our publicly traded bdc we're looking at companies that are between twenty five and seventy five million dollars of ebitda which we we believe is the true middle market what's happening now is there's a real convergence of the syndicated loan market where banks typically played right and the upper upper middle market so private investment managers private credit manager doing those deals that banks used to and i think that's where you're going to see some more issues why do the banks.

[Tim Stanwick]

Why are the banks not doing loans to those companies or conversely why are those companies not going to a traditional.

[Mark Gado]

Bank for that loan sure so effectively banks have been regulated out of the business right they're not focused on it they abandoned the business after the great financial crisis they let all of their deal team go you know all their portfolio managers go they were gobbled up or formed their own private asset management firms so you don't see private bank i see the big banks doing these types of deals because they just don't have the expertise anymore what they do is they get involved i think in the market more synthetically by lending to firms like us where they can be on a more senior secured position and what we're seeing is these larger private institutional asset managers they're getting so big where they are now the bank the difference is that the the investment committee that people making decisions there are able to do it more efficiently provide more certainty be more flexible than say a traditional money center bank we're done with.

[Carol Massar]

Mark gatto he is co founder co president co ceo of scion investments mark what's a deal you will do in the private credit space with a deal you will not do because i mean and how much transparency are you feeling like you're getting on these deals so.

[Mark Gado]

We feel like we get a lot of good information obviously we're very diligent about doing our underwriting and understanding what we're getting ourselves into i think every investment warrants merit if it if it meets some of our baseline criteria right so we're again we're looking at companies that have that have earnings so that's that's first and foremost so twenty five to seventy five million dollars ebitda is our is our sweet spot and then we want to really focus on are they are they relevant in their industry are they a leader in their industry do they have a good management team is there a reason for them to exist so we're going to we're going to focus on those things determine whether or not we we want to do the deal on a high level we're not you know we're not doing a lot of stuff that's very cyclical in the bdc and even in our interval fund diversified credit we're not doing cyclical industries we're probably staying clear of retail in many instances not to say that we won't do either of those deals right it's just not going to be a major point portion of what we.

[Carol Massar]

Do give us an idea of a deal you recently did and i'm curious about the infrastructure play right now that's a big part of it or energy like what you're seeing yes on the.

[Mark Gado]

Infrastructure side which is a little bit different because we're actually focused more on the equity of these infrastructure deals but they do have a lot of characteristics that credit assets have i think it kind of falls in between pure credit and private equity if you will right because when we're talking about infrastructure we're talking about stable stable revenue that's being generated by these assets as predictable so it has that element but there is some sort of growth story to that and if you look at our infrastructure fund we're doing deals like the m twenty five in london so roads bridges we have terminals at laguardia terminals at jfk we're in ai and data storage so we really run a diversified strategy and that is a theme throughout all of our products we want to be diversified and we think that's probably the most important thing for us as a manager and we think for investors is to be diversified if you look at our bdc we have one hundred sixty different names in there if you look at our interval fund the sign aries diversified credit fund we have over seven hundred names in there so you're really getting granular you're really getting diversified so no one deal is going to make a difference and no group of deals is going to make a difference and we're doing that same thing with infrastructure we want to be highly diversified is.

[Tim Stanwick]

There political risk with the infrastructure fund in the sense that you have an administration right now that wants to punish different states and cities for not getting in line essentially we see that with the trump administration and with the mta for example and tolling congestion tolling is.

[Mark Gado]

That a risk so we don't we don't view it as a risk because of our diversification because we we are investing in different areas of infrastructure we're not a clean energy play we're not a fossil fossil fuel play we don't believe that there's much political risk in terms of our strategy and then if you look at the industry as a whole the market as a whole there's such a high demand for infrastructure assets there's such a need to spend capital to improve our infrastructure assets not only here in the united states but globally it's a multi multi trillion dollar opportunity we don't think that political the current administration or new administration is going to sort of move the move the needle one way or the other especially if you're diversified and again i go back to that theme it's really important at sign investments we preach it to our advisors and clients that that that's where you need to be not only within alternatives but across the entire spectrum just.

[Carol Massar]

Got thirty seconds how would you describe the environment like in a word a.

[Mark Gado]

Couple words i think the word that describes the environment is uncertain it's it's been it's been that way for a while it's going to be that way for a long time information moves too quickly where the global economy are too interconnected there's always a news story that's going to give you some sort of angst that's going to make you think things are uncertain so that's why we again we fall back to diversification and we like alternatives for our clients our advisors because we think we stabilize some of that uncertainty and volatility in the.

[Carol Massar]

Market we know you're based on the west coast but we hope we can attract you back to our new york.

[Mark Gado]

City we're headquartered in new york so anytime i'm there often any time you would like to have me on as a guest it'd be my pleasure we.

[Carol Massar]

Would love it market he's co founder co president and co ceo of scion.

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