Black Leaders Confront the DEI Backlash: Businessweek Convenes

Summary

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Bloomberg Businessweek: Black Leaders Confront the DEI Backlash – Businessweek Convenes

Date: March 29, 2026
Host: Romaine Bostick
Panelists:

• Ursula Burns (Co-founder, Integrum Holdings; former CEO, Xerox)
• Nicole Reebo (CEO, Rich Talent Group)
• Lisa Wardell (Board member, American Express; former CEO, Covista)
• Chris Williams (Chairman & Founder, Siebert Williams Schenck)
• [Executive Search Consultant] (Not always directly identified; frequently participates in discussion)

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Overview

In this special episode of Bloomberg Businessweek's “Convenes” series, Romaine Bostick hosts an unflinching roundtable with Black C-suite leaders examining the intense rollback of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives in corporate America. As state and federal pushes threaten the progress post-George Floyd, the panelists bring decades of lived and leadership experience to bear—discussing whether current changes mark a new era of retrenchment or yet another pendulum swing in the pursuit of genuine equity. They dissect the economic, psychological, and communal impacts of DEI’s backlash, the persistence of meritocracy myths, and strategies for resilience in deeply divided times, offering honest insights for current and future leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The State of Progress and Backlash

• Historic Cycles of Advancement and Retrenchment:

  • Progress for Black Americans and other marginalized communities often comes in waves, typically followed by significant pushback.
  • “Like a lot of times through history, when we've made progress, we've seen the two steps forward, one steps back, sometimes three steps back.” — Romaine Bostick [02:07]

• Narrative vs. Reality:

  • The panel agreed the positive narrative around DEI has been subverted, leading to questions on the legitimacy of Black leaders’ qualifications.
  • “They've stolen the narrative, not the reality. Not only our contributions today, but kind of the labor, the creativity that we put into making this country what it is.” — Chris Williams [05:40]

2. Meritocracy, Access, and the Colorblind Fallacy

• Merit Without Access is a Myth:

  • “Merit is contingent on access and inclusivity. And what's happened is we're talking about the merit...in a vacuum. Without access...you cannot get in the room to perform.” — Lisa Wardell [07:07]
  • Panelists challenge the framing that DEI undermines merit, stressing that opportunities have never been equally distributed.

• Never a Level Playing Field:

  • “Was this ever really a truly a merit based society?” — Romaine Bostick [07:34]
  • “Never. No, never.” — Ursula Burns & Lisa Wardell [07:37-07:39]

3. DEI Rollbacks: Real Impacts Behind the Headlines

• Short-Term Thinking & Political Pressure:

  • Many corporations made bold DEI commitments after George Floyd, but when political winds shifted, so did their commitments.
  • “Once Stephen Miller and some of the other folks started coming for them...let's just be honest about it, they caved.” — Romaine Bostick [13:32]
  • The pressure on companies is often legal and political, not just economic (“It's not a request. It's a structured law, set of laws. Some of them have been changed. They better do it. It's called a rule.” — Ursula Burns [18:33]).

• Human and Intergenerational Costs:

  • Loss of senior opportunities isn't just abstract—it derails generational wealth-building and life trajectories.
  • “These are life changing moments for executives of color...this is earned success and ascent. And then to sort of have it just, you know, sort of just pulled away, I think is really cruel and it's really harsh.” — Executive Search Consultant [23:06]

4. Psychological Toll: Resilience, Anger, and Responsibility

• The Burden of Justification:

  • Black leaders often bear the burden of proving their legitimacy:
    • “We are still defending, like small minds...we have to defend the fact that we are just doing a good job like everybody else is afforded.” — Ursula Burns [04:28]

• Survivor’s Narrative, Not Victim’s:

  • The participants prefer to reframe their success as survival and impact rather than victimization.
    • “I don't even feel like it's a victim's narrative. I feel like it's a survivor's narrative...” — Executive Search Consultant [10:43]

• Standing Up—At What Cost?

  • While the panel recognizes their relative privilege and platform, they stress the need to speak out—for themselves and others, even when risky.
  • “If we don't stand up and speak out, the situation could get worse...it will get worse.” — Chris Williams & Lisa Wardell [11:49–11:56]

5. Action, Solutions, and the Importance of Data

• The Role of Evidence:

  • DEI is not charity; the data backs its business benefits triumphed by the panel:
    • “We know it's not a charitable endeavor to create diversity...87% of teams make better choices if they're diverse....17, 20% more revenue, particularly from innovation.” — Lisa Wardell [12:13]

• Long-term Investments and Short-term Risks:

  • The need for patient, principled leadership amid backlash:
    • “I don't actually blame Target as much for their short term actions as I would blame them for not rolling it back the other direction if they don't do that.” — Ursula Burns [15:37]

• Concrete Impact Suggestions:

  • “Whether it's bringing one kid in as an intern, whether it's stroking a check to some nonprofit...whether it's serving on...a school board. There's something that we can all do to change this situation.” — Chris Williams [32:21]

6. The Role of Personal and Community Constellations

• Mentorship and Community as Success Multipliers:
  • Success is collective: “It's not one person, one mentor, one parent. It is a constellation of people that you surround yourself with in your life. More so now than ever...” — Executive Search Consultant [47:50]
  • Intergenerational uplift is both a value and a strategy: “Every generation tries to make things easier for the next generation...but I'm not sure that's such a good thing though.” — Chris Williams [39:36]

7. Ownership, Optimism, and American Identity

• Pride and Investment in America:

  • “This is my country. Absolutely. No doubt.” — Ursula Burns [37:52–37:56]
  • “And this country's been very good to me. ...I'm not throwing that out.” — Chris Williams [37:57–38:01]

• The Pendulum and Hope vs. Entrenchment:

  • The panel debated whether the “pendulum” will reliably swing back to progress, or whether polarization is growing too entrenched ([35:34], [36:57]), ultimately resolving that their ongoing efforts will help shape the future.

• The Power of Example:

  • Young people need visible role models who define success on their own terms:
    • “Define this on your own terms...Look inside first and then stop looking for anyone else to care. That's sort of where I'm at.” — Executive Search Consultant [28:01]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “They've stolen the narrative, not the reality.”
  — Chris Williams [05:40]

• “Merit is contingent on access and inclusivity.”
  — Lisa Wardell [07:07]

• “We are still defending, like small minds...we have to defend the fact that we are just doing a good job like everybody else is afforded.”
  — Ursula Burns [04:28]

• “I don't even feel like it's a victim's narrative. I feel like it's a survivor's narrative...”
  — Executive Search Consultant [10:43]

• “If we don't stand up and speak out, the situation could get worse.”
  — Chris Williams [11:49]
  — “Will get worse.” — Lisa Wardell [11:55]

• “We have to use our voice, even though it is really expensive.”
  — Ursula Burns [34:00]

• On justification for being in the room:
  — “I just think that the question is BS...We've never been racially equal...you don't have a right to be here. You are here because you're black. If we think that that is not in...who they are, then we're BSing ourselves.” — Ursula Burns [26:11]

• “It's not one person, one mentor, one parent. It is a constellation of people that you surround yourself with in your life.”
  — Executive Search Consultant [47:50]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:26] — DEI’s proven benefits, the empirical case
• [04:28] — Black leaders forced to justify their success
• [05:40–07:07] — The narrative “stolen”; the myth of meritocracy
• [08:44] — Corporate America’s “unwritten rules”; rollback of gains
• [13:32–13:59] — Corporate America caves to external anti-DEI pressure
• [18:16–18:33] — The legal and political nature of DEI rollbacks
• [23:06] — Tangible consequences: lost opportunities, generational impact
• [25:24] — Career survival tactics, shifting toward legacy and impact
• [28:01] — The necessity of self-affirmation, internal locus of value
• [32:21] — Constructive action as antidote to pain and frustration
• [34:00–34:58] — The cost of speaking out, importance of using one's platform
• [36:57–37:42] — Will the pendulum swing back? Entrenchment versus hope
• [37:52–38:10] — Affirmation of American identity and ownership
• [40:25] — The complexity of legacy: lowering barriers vs. lowering the bar
• [43:34–44:19] — Preparing for the AI future through access and engagement
• [45:51–46:48] — Will the future be better? Optimism anchored in action
• [47:50–48:37] — Success is a “constellation,” not a solo climb

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Conclusion

The episode closes with a powerful call for resilience, unity, and continued advocacy—rejecting narratives that diminish Black leadership and instead affirming their place, voice, and optimism for the future. The discussion makes clear: DEI is neither a fad nor charity; it is a strategic imperative rooted in America’s promise and tied to its collective success. The leaders around this table own their progress, their pain, and their platform—insisting that the arc continues to bend through their action and example.

“You all are in my constellation now. This is wonderful.”
— Executive Search Consultant [48:40]

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Transcript

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[Romaine Bostick]

Welcome to Business Week Convenes a series dedicated to bringing together prominent leaders for discussions on vital and sensitive subjects. Good morning, I'm Romaine Bostick. Coming up this hour, we delve into a crucial the state of black leadership in corporate America. This conversation, it comes as we see diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives rolled back across the country. To tackle this issue today, I'm joined by several black leaders navigating this challenging environment. Ursula Burns. She's the former CEO of Xerox and the first black woman to lead a Fortune 500 company. And she currently serves as co founder of Integrum Holdings. Nicole reebo is the CEO of C Suite recruiter Rich Talent Group. Jacob Walther Jr. Is CEO of Blueprint Capital Advisors. Lisa Wardell, currently a board member at American Express and the former CEO of the for profit education company now known as Covista. And Chris Williams, the legendary investment banker, now the chairman and founder of of Siebert. William Schenck. Here is our conversation featuring Black leaders confronting the DEI backlash. America it's in a bit of a mood right now. A lot has changed. I think we go back a few years ago. It seemed like to a certain extent the dialogue and discourse we were having was constructive. Seemed like we were making progress and Like a lot of times through history, when we've made progress, we've seen the two steps forward, one steps back, sometimes three steps back. Where are we right now in America? Chris?

[Nicole Reebo]

I think over the years, we've seen decades of evidence where DEI and the principles that underpin diversity, equity and inclusion lead to strong outcomes. I think the political discourse, obviously, is, in the last couple of years has caused there to be a questioning of the validity of the benefits that we've seen empirically from diversity. So we have to make sure that they know that and remember that there are the benefits and that we, as diverse individuals, have collectively looked to be additive to the equation.

[Romaine Bostick]

But do you think that perception exists? Ursula, when you look at your success, the success of everyone around the table, that people look upon you and your success as being more a product of government programs and affirmative action and DEI initiatives rather than your work, your skill and what you put into it?

[Ursula Burns]

I think it's not rather than. It's in addition to. Right. There is no doubt, based on the way that black people, women, brown people, poorer people have been treated in this nation from the beginning of time, that we've been denied some of the fundamental rights that we should be afforded. So over my life, I benefited from programs that were trying to fix what they had denied from me. Once I was allowed to go to school, a reasonable school with reasonable books, have a job, a reasonable job with reasonable pay. I performed as good or better than other people. We keep having the same discussion and arguing the same argument, which is, we're talented individuals. We happen to have a skin color or a gender that's different than the standard. We are still defending, like small minds. And one of the most frustrating things is that we actually give validity to these small minds, that we have to defend the fact that we are just doing a good job like everybody else is afforded. Who is afforded the fundamentals? Good education, reasonable health care, reasonable food, safe places to live.

[Chris Williams]

They've stolen the narrative.

[Ursula Burns]

Yeah, they've stolen the narrative.

[Chris Williams]

They've stolen the narrative, not the reality. Not only our contributions today, but kind of the labor, the creativity that we put into making this country what it is. And so when you hear about this whole concept of making America great again, feel like they stole something from us. Yeah, right. Because we were very much a part of making America what it is today. But I think you make a very valid point. We make advancements, and then we hit one of these periods where we have to deal with the backlash and the retribution, whether it was post slavery, whether it was reconstruction, whether it was Jim Crow. Now, I think we pay a little bit of a price for the advancements we've made more recently. When you really think about it, right, they've got reason to be worried in their mind. You've got more black senators than ever before in my industry. You've got more black people running venture capital funds, private equity funds, private credit funds. And so I try to look at the glass as being half full because we have these periods where the political climate can really affect us and become a stressor. But we got to remember that we've made significant advancements. It's just a matter of do we believe the narrative they're telling or should we figure out how to keep our narrative alive and well and defend it and make sure it's continually amplified so our children know what the possibilities are for their lives and their careers in

[Lisa Wardell]

terms of how the narrative has been taken or changed. The narrative now is it shouldn't be dei, it's merit. Everything is merit based. But merit is contingent on access and inclusivity. And what's happened is we're talking about the merit, which we all agree with merit too. And we're talking about it in a vacuum. Without access, if you don't have the access, you cannot get in the room to perform.

[Romaine Bostick]

Was this ever really a truly a merit based society?

[Ursula Burns]

Never. No, never.

[Lisa Wardell]

No, no.

[Executive Search Consultant]

And I think in these moments there's a sort of a wish to make oneself small. I hear this all the time in executive sort of, let me just keep my head down in this very toxic culture. I'm hanging on to the CEO title. I'm just going to hang in there, you know, until this passes. And you know, that is, it's just not, it's just not realistic. So the temptation is, yes, you want to hold on to what you have, but you want to hold on to it with your back straight. And that's what I want to leave people with in this moment. You know, we are getting a lot of push back on things that, you know, you all have talked about, which are kind of ridiculous and, you know, totally created. But how we handle ourselves now is super, super important.

[Nicole Reebo]

You know, it's interesting. I always find sports analogies are an effective way to highlight the benefits of diversity. We excel when you allow everyone to participate on a level playing field with public rules, with clear guidelines and goals, and you have fair referee and transparent score.

[Executive Search Consultant]

I love what you said, but they're 180 in corporate America. Everything that you said, unwritten rules, level Playing field, not, you know, and we have still excelled. So I think there is something about in this moment being really, really real, looking each other in the eye squarely and saying these gains are now being pulled back. And you wonder, you know, the access that you talked about, Lisa, was it really access or was it really just a sort of like a dip a toe? Because my worry is that the gains that people have made now are quickly disappearing. This is what I hear on a day to day basis. Why am I not getting that call for that board C. Why is someone not calling me about a CEO role? Am I. Have I been sort of like disappeared?

[Romaine Bostick]

But to Nicole's point, there are quite a few people who did not want to have that brave conversation. They did not want to be out in public or on the record talking about these issues. I'm sure you know some of those folks.

[Ursula Burns]

Yeah, but I think that we're asking, we're asking a lot. It's like almost preaching to the converted. So we're sitting around this table, we all kind of look the same. We're all black. First of all, we should have some white guys having this conversation. I always say this because it's almost like the victims have to defend themselves and explain why we're being victimized. Right. We have to kind of explain what other people are doing to us. The way I think about this is times 100 years ago were worse than they are today. They're better today than they were 100 years ago.

[Romaine Bostick]

No doubt.

[Ursula Burns]

Absolutely. And people didn't like it 100 years ago. They don't like it today. Right now we have a big, big problem because the guy who doesn't like it runs the damn place. Right?

[Romaine Bostick]

That's the difference.

[Ursula Burns]

That's a huge difference. So I say to all of the people, black, white, male, female, watch it and make sure that the rules that we all want to live by, the democratic rules, the rule of law, the rules of a democracy, work for me. Even though you don't like me or even though I don't look like you, it has to work for me if it's going to work for you too.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Well, I think that's the myth of dei that we were the only people

[Ursula Burns]

that benefited from, benefited from it.

[Executive Search Consultant]

And then, you know, all the stats in terms of representation and who rose also with civil rights, women benefited so significant. So I don't even feel like it's a victim's narrative. I feel like it's a survivor's narrative that we are sitting here talking about how we have survived and will continue to survive. And I don't mind that because there's someone out there who maybe doesn't have a voice, who doesn't feel like they can speak up. And I know those people who are like, I am literally just going to tough it out in this moment. I was one of those people. I'm not even sure what I'm doing here now. I also thought about, you know what, who do I want to be in this moment? Yeah. How do I want to show up and be in this moment? And it's scary for some people, it's scary.

[Chris Williams]

But the truth of the matter is, those of us around this table, we don't really have anything to fear.

[Lisa Wardell]

Thank you.

[Chris Williams]

We've had storybook careers. We've amassed more wealth than we probably ever imagined. We've impacted our families, our communities, our colleges. We are, for the most part, part of the protected class.

[Ursula Burns]

We are them.

[Chris Williams]

But if we don't stand up and speak out, the situation could get worse.

[Lisa Wardell]

Will get worse.

[Chris Williams]

It will get worse. And so those of us at this table I know think about kind of the issue of, of impact. The question is beyond the conversation, how do we actually generate more impact?

[Romaine Bostick]

Do you do that quietly? Do you do that out loud to answer that question?

[Lisa Wardell]

I think one of the benefits of the last few years is that we now have data to your point. Like, we know this is not a charitable endeavor to create diversity. We know that 87% of teams make better choices if they're diverse. We understand that, you know, 17, 20% more revenue, particularly from innovation. And so I think, to use a business analogy, in addition to Chris's sports analogy, it's just like trying to convince your investors and your stakeholders you need to make in period investments in your brand and marketing that are going to give you out of period returns. They hate it.

[Ursula Burns]

Right.

[Lisa Wardell]

They want that marketing money to be aligned with what they're going to get that quarter or the next quarter. But if you don't convince them of that and you do not invest in your brand, in your company, in your, your talent two years from now, a year from now, three years from now, all of these things that are happening, where these pullbacks are happening, they are going to come home to roost. And so I think for us, our job is to remind people this is a data driven assignment now for corporate America and frankly for the federal government,

[Romaine Bostick]

there were some corporations that had that proof. I mean, let's just take the retail side, right? You talk about Target opening up its shelves to hundreds of Black businesses, the impact was tangible. Anybody can go, you can look at their quarterly reports, it was tangible. But once Stephen Miller and some of the other folks started coming for them because of their stance, and not just for black entrepreneurs, but what they do for LGBTQ and other folks as well, I mean, let's just be honest about it, they caved.

[Nicole Reebo]

There are so many companies, individuals, institutions that have, in fact, been very supportive of us within our community. And I think it's in our interest to help provide them with support to continue to understand we're here, here's what we can do. Let us also show you why and how it benefits you, and then they'll be able to at least have the data, the information that's necessary to continue to try to support. But there's no doubt the pulling effect.

[Lisa Wardell]

Let me just push back a little bit on the narrative. I mean, we were talking about Target and obviously there's other companies. But first of all, we have an administration, right, that is bullying corporate America. And what we really should be saying is, well, if they can dictate and determine what happens with dei, what's the next thing that, you know, the administration or just moving away from democracy and rule of law is going to do?

[Ursula Burns]

Right?

[Lisa Wardell]

But when you look at the fundamental DNA of that organization and other retail organizations, they fully understand that their management and their talent and their work workforce has to mirror their communities. They know that it's just really difficult to do it.

[Executive Search Consultant]

I think we're looking for rationality. Data will not make a human rational. Right. And I think this is a lot of what we're seeing, you know, in the face of very good data, in the face of history, in the face of just common sense, you know, capitalism, this doesn't make any sense. And so I think, what about money?

[Romaine Bostick]

What about, you know, but the short

[Ursula Burns]

term, the short term money is not big for these guys at all.

[Romaine Bostick]

Right?

[Ursula Burns]

I mean, what about all you got to do is survive a couple of quarters? This is a lot of thought, by the way. Rightfully, that's right. You know, rightfully so. I mean, I don't want them all to kind of run into the breach and get shot down as in their way, and they have to be longer planners. And so I, I don't actually blame Target as much for their short term actions as I would blame them for not rolling it back the other direction if they don't do that. You have, you know, I ran a company, as, you know. Yes, it's not easy to. This is not easy to do as Loud. A voice as we are or yes, louder voice as we are. There are louder voices from governments, from people who don't agree. So you have to. And you have to play to all of them. So I forgive them. I don't forgive them. If they literally continue to practice this bad behavior, they have to take a step back and they've done that. I don't know all of the target story, but they also know that the

[Chris Williams]

facts show that, I mean, foot traffic's down, sales.

[Ursula Burns]

That's right, shut down. And if they don't adjust to that, then you just call them silly. Right. Tell them to close. I mean, we don't need to.

[Lisa Wardell]

And by the way, this is a crossroads.

[Executive Search Consultant]

I was going to say it's not only.

[Lisa Wardell]

Absolutely. And they're being targeted.

[Executive Search Consultant]

But that's the danger, Joan, when you come out with corporate values. So is it better not to say it than to behave in a different way? Just live it and live what? This is what. And this is what young people see especially. They're not living their values.

[Romaine Bostick]

So was it a mistake for some of these corporations to come out and make these declarations?

[Chris Williams]

I think we got to look at the foundation or the reason why they did it in the first place. George Floyd's murder was horrific. And you remember the level of protest that was going on not just here in America, but outside this country. And so they responded to their consumers and their consumer sentiment. They weren't responding because their values told them that they needed to do something different. And then I think they figured it out. Right, I'll throw money at the problem. And that's what they did. And then when the political climate changed, they pulled back and many of them actually never, they made statements, but never actually committed to dollars to those causes that they said that they were going to fund.

[Romaine Bostick]

Even in the world of finance, I know we were picking on target for a while, but we had major Wall street banks, Goldman Sachs coming out saying we're going to loan more to minority owned businesses, invest more in minority owned businesses, invest more in venture funds and private equity funds run by all those

[Chris Williams]

programs are now gone. All the chief diversity officers are now gone. And they recognize that the irs, the Justice Department, the SEC, and all the other agencies at the bequest of this administration can be turned against them.

[Ursula Burns]

It's not a request. It's not a request. It's a structured law, set of laws. Some of them have been changed. They better do it. It's called a rule. I mean, they gotta know.

[Nicole Reebo]

14172 Although in fairness to a lot of the companies, I would say the George Floyd tragedy was an affront to many of their values and the values of their employees and constituents. And so there was that support. I think what they found, though, you often can very quickly have a reflex response or, we're going to do this. And then they realize it requires more work than just saying, we're going to do this. It requires a lot of time to make sure you outreach, have a staff to follow up, to provide the opportunities, identify the partners. And that's where I think a lot of it fell apart. And then we suddenly ran into a period, as we are in today, where it is no longer even acceptable, but it causes more complications to follow up on those programs than otherwise would have.

[Romaine Bostick]

But one point you made, Ursula, about this idea of not really blaming the companies, you understand, kind of where they're coming from. Did all of you buy in to those messages when we were hearing them in 2021? Yeah.

[Ursula Burns]

I'm not here to defend these companies. They, you know, at the end of the day, I can make some choices about where I spend my money, where I shop, etc. And we should all do that, which we actually don't, but we should all do that. Me as a consumer, I should be talking to Target as well. And I think that running a company is not easy. But I'm not even discussing. I'm discussing us a little bit. Forget all of this thing called Target. There are individuals who run these places. They have to stand and say, guys, I don't agree with this. It's not easy to do. And I may have to follow this rule because the IRS is going to come get me if I don't. But I don't believe or support the actions that this individual or this agency or this approach to business is taking. We've lost all of that. That voice. When I was running Xerox, I couldn't represent 100,000 employees in Xerox. I guarantee you 50,000 of them probably agreed with me and the other 50,000 didn't. So I basically have to kind of ride the middle. But I, Ursula Burns, have a set of beliefs. I have a voice. We've lost the braveness of them saying, we got to fund DEI programs. We have to support them in other ways. Even if I can't do it this way. We have to support them in other ways because they are important. We've lost all the voice, and I am disappointed in that. So we're going to have this struggle until we can convert everybody to Actual rule of law, just government, racial equality.

[Chris Williams]

Right.

[Ursula Burns]

Gender equality. We're nowhere near that.

[Romaine Bostick]

Yeah.

[Ursula Burns]

All I want to make sure is that people who are on this side, that on either side have the fair voice. And right now they do not.

[Romaine Bostick]

Yeah. Lisa, you were running a company at the time that this happened at Tall, and you put out a letter to your employees addressing this issue and it was a call to action, was it not?

[Lisa Wardell]

Yes. How was that received My call to action, and I think this is apropos for today, was let's talk about it, right? Let's. We had. And then many companies did. Let's. Let's have a town hall. Let's talk about this. We had a town hall. And the rule was you could ask me anything. And then I went further and said we need to be able to collect the data back to the data around how having diverse management. We did not have a diverse management approach across all five of our institutions. You know, how do we measure that? And the call to action to my team was to make sure not only hire diverse people, black, brown, women, but are you making sure that you're looking at the very best universe of people that are qualified? And it's just not possible that that universe is all white males. And that changed a lot of the dialogue within the organization. But what I will tell you is we had diversity in our DNA from the very beginning. I think the companies that rolled back quickly or may have gotten in trouble, this was, to your point, this was their. Maybe not first time, but they took these big, big strides and then realized just how difficult it is to ingrain that into, you know, into your, into your organization.

[Executive Search Consultant]

I just think in all of this talk, you know, we're talking about rollbacks and contractions and, and all of that, you know, an executive search. These, these are people, these are life changing moments for executives of color. You know, I've negotiated many comp packages where the equity stake will change their whole life. Intergenerational wealth is being built in a lot of these opportunities, which is why I do what I do. This is earned success and ascent. And then to sort of have it just, you know, sort of just pulled away, I think is really cruel and it's really harsh. And so, so when we talk about, you know, the companies making decisions, and I always think about the human behind that decision, who is now in a rift, who doesn't get the calls anymore or what have you. And you know, just again, thinking about who's listening to us here, what we can share with them, that you did deserve it. And there will be something else. There has to be that continuity in our, in what we share.

[Chris Williams]

I've been doing this now almost 36 years. And my first job was at Shearson Lehman Hutton. And one of the first people I met when I got there was Chris. And Chris had ahead of him Frank Shepard and George Haywood. And mentorship was a really big deal. And what these guys taught me and women, because I had, you know, people like Wanda Hinton as well advising me, was that I had to outsmart, I had to outwork, I had to outmaneuver, never walk into a room and have a spontaneous conversation with someone who doesn't look like me. I lived on a battlefield. There was all these rules that they gave me and I followed them for a really long time. And I would say they led to my survival at times, but they also led to my success. But post George Floyd, when I saw my kids out there in the streets, you know, I had to look back on my career and think about the number of times that I swept something under the carpet, that I just turned my head, that I let it roll off my back because I knew that these earnings were game changing. But I had to wake up and realize that, okay, your kids are good, but there's a whole lot of other kids out there in the world that aren't going to be good unless you stand up and do something. It had to be about people and profits, not just profits, but you kind

[Lisa Wardell]

of had to do the first part first to give you the credibility to

[Chris Williams]

do that, to get the resources and

[Lisa Wardell]

the resources and the credibility. Yes.

[Chris Williams]

Taking the risk. You're taking risk.

[Lisa Wardell]

But before you said, I'm not sure why we're sitting it for me, same thing, three easy reasons. I have a 24, almost 25 year old in the workforce. I have a 23 year old who just graduated, who's going in the work workforce and a younger daughter. And I can't afford to not have these conversations because, you know, I have two black men in the workforce that are at the beginning of what you're talking about.

[Nicole Reebo]

But in answer to your question though, will you say, are we there because we have the best performance or because we're black? It's a combination. We are who we are.

[Ursula Burns]

I just think that the question is bs We've never been racially equal and we're talking like, well, do you think that they're looking at you like they're black? The only way that they can look at you is the way that we've been taught to look at them. I mean, it's how you feel being a woman. I feel like Ursula Burns being a woman. How do I feel being black? I feel like Ursula Burns. Everybody else who looks at me feels as though. I guarantee you, you don't have a right to be here.

[Nicole Reebo]

Right.

[Ursula Burns]

You are here because you're black. If we. If we think that that is not in the root, by the way, in who we are, but who they are, then we're BSing ourselves.

[Romaine Bostick]

Does that hurt? I mean, even today, did it hurt in the past?

[Ursula Burns]

Not really. For me, literally, this justification, we are a racist, sexist society. This country was built on the back of young people, women, immigrants, black people. That's how we got here. Now, I don't want us to go back and keep blaming them. I just want them to get out of our way at this point. I don't want to have to justify the fact that we can perform equally. We are just people, citizens. Give us. Get out of our way, have us. Give us an education, access to health care like everybody else has, and we can move forward.

[Executive Search Consultant]

So part of this also is that we will spin our wheels and talk about this stuff and balance the truth, try and answer the unanswered when it's already answered.

[Chris Williams]

We got to pick our heads up, but we also got to stick our necks out.

[Ursula Burns]

For sure.

[Executive Search Consultant]

But I'm not hating the people who are also taking a different road during this time, Sort of consolidating their power, dealing with people that they want to deal with, doing business with people they trust, and not looking for affirmation outside of themselves. So I think this is another moment where it's like, okay, so who are you going to look to? To affirm ourselves, we look inside first and then stop looking for anyone else to care. That's sort of where I'm at.

[Ursula Burns]

This is where I tell you, sis. This is where I am at. I am the same place. Okay? If we can get people on our bandwagon, all for it, great. Come on, let's go. But I am tired of asking. Answering these questions like, do you feel. I don't care. Really don't care.

[Executive Search Consultant]

My therapist helps work that out.

[Ursula Burns]

That's right. Exactly.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Thank you, Alison, whoever it is.

[Ursula Burns]

That's this. Our point here is that there are also the people who have. Who don't look anything like us, that have a responsibility too. Let's make sure they carry some of that weight. We're helping them.

[Romaine Bostick]

There are a lot of people looking at some of the hires that we've seen in this current government administration and kind of asking whether those people were even qualified, at the same time pointing at Alisa Cook or Susan Rice or someone like that and saying that, you know, they're DEI hires despite their accomplishments. I asked you whether stuff like that hurts. And I would have to think to a certain extent it's got to hurt sometimes, right?

[Ursula Burns]

Oh, my God. It's.

[Chris Williams]

Yeah.

[Ursula Burns]

If this is not an anomaly. Yeah, then I'm more than hurt. I'm pissed.

[Romaine Bostick]

Okay?

[Ursula Burns]

Right. If this is an anomaly, I hope like hell that it is. Because in all of the badness in our modern times, not in the Jim Crow or enslaved people past, we've had some rule base that made sense. I mean, they didn't follow it all the time. It's all gone now. Literally. Unskilled, unqualified people who are just associated with other people who can run major departments of our government should not be allowed. And if it's not an anomaly, we are not the worst people that are going to suffer here because we know how to suffer. I tell you, the people out there don't know how to suffer. If this is the way we're going to play the game where it doesn't matter what the hell you've done in the past, what skill set you have, it only matters how much money you have and what friends you have. No one in this country is prepared. Not enough people in this country are prepared for that kind of rule set. If the people aren't looking at us saying, we are the canary in the coal mine, right, we're yelling, but they're going to have to yell, too, then I think we're in trouble.

[Chris Williams]

It does hurt. And I'll tell you why. Of course it hurts because it hurts. When I started my career in investment banking, there was a whole bunch of us. I looked around three or four years later and 70% of us were gone. And every year that I continued to do what I was doing, I watched more and more of us walk away. Not necessarily get fired or asked to leave, just walk away. So, yeah, it hurt watching some of our very own people, our friends, people we cared about, get pushed out of the industry because they just couldn't. Couldn't take it anymore. But what I will say is that it hurts in a different way in that you have so few examples of success at our level and there's no real means of amplifying that. I feel like for all the success that those of us around this table have had, there are so many people that have not been able to travel the path, and there are so many kids out there who don't know that there is this path.

[Nicole Reebo]

It's interesting because I think it's good that even among this table, we all have different ways of viewing and dealing with our experiences. For me, I try not to even acknowledge the hurt part has nothing to do with anything. I am going to constantly try to convert to what is the opportunity, what is the objective performance data that will hopefully allow me to achieve most of what I'm trying to achieve.

[Chris Williams]

And I think it's okay to acknowledge hurt. It's how you deal with that hurt. Do you deal with it in a constructive way or do you deal with it in a destructive way?

[Romaine Bostick]

What is a constructive way?

[Chris Williams]

You get up every day and you figure out how to fight, but you figure out how to do it in an intelligent, calculating way. You figure out what your contribution can be. Stop thinking about the problem. What can your contribution be to the solution? Because all of us can do something, whether it's bringing one kid in as an intern, whether it's stroking a check to some nonprofit that's focused on, you know, career development and young people, whether it's serving on the board of a local school board. I mean, there's something that we can all do to change this situation. And to me, it's that. That hurt that gets me up every day and makes me want to fight. I just know better than to go out there and use my fists.

[Romaine Bostick]

Lisa, are you having these conversations with your sons? You mentioned two sons that just entered the world workforce.

[Lisa Wardell]

Yeah. Yes. And I think I agree with all of that. And I am really focused on, okay, but what's the solution here? Right? So if we think about dei, what is the access issue and what's the inclusion issue? So I cannot just be either hurt or angry. Right. I have to be far more constructive. And for me, in talking to my sons and my daughter, it's about six service. And I believe that this is a pendulum. And I think, to Ursula's point, we're far more equipped, far more equipped to make it through, you know, the current sort of environment and atmosphere than a lot of folks. And we will.

[Ursula Burns]

I have a voice.

[Lisa Wardell]

Yes. Yeah.

[Ursula Burns]

A position, money, followership, whatever the heck it is. And we have to use that. Even though it is really expensive. Right. It's one of the more expensive things. So just use it all the time, every chance that you can. We're not trying to convert all of these people out here to believe that I'm better than them. Or equal to them. I don't give a hoot. I just want them to either to follow. This is why I'm so nervous now. Follow the rules. Follow the rules.

[Chris Williams]

But that's been going on for a long time where people haven't cared about the rules.

[Ursula Burns]

Yeah, but now we have a structure, a structure that's changing. Right. We have nowhere to go. We have to be really careful about this. Literally, if they pick you up on the street and send you into a place, you could be there for 21 days, even though the rules say you can't, and we'll send you somewhere and let you out. That makes. That should be making everyone feel nervous. Everyone should be nervous and pick one of these common things and make sure you fight it.

[Executive Search Consultant]

But it's hard to catalyze that fear into action.

[Ursula Burns]

I agree.

[Executive Search Consultant]

It's really hard to do that when you don't feel that you have the privilege or access, whether real or myth, to. To do that. So I just, you know, as I speak to people every day in Executive Search, and they don't necessarily feel self empowered to kind of say, you know what, this is a toxic culture. I don't care if it's Fortune 500 or 250, I'm out.

[Lisa Wardell]

But that's why it's so important for us to be out there and use our voice and pick our cause, particularly for and around young people, is just. It's critical.

[Romaine Bostick]

How deep seated, though, do you think this will be? I mean, we talk about the person in the White House. In theory, he'll be gone. But you have a court system now that seems to be tilting in favor of a lot of his ideas and policies. You have state legislatures that seem to be tilting in favor of those policies. Is what's being done now going to become so entrenched? That is not just your children that might be dealing with, but maybe your grandchildren.

[Nicole Reebo]

I think there are mindsets that are pro and con DEI that are becoming more entrenched, one side or the other. Because aside from race, on every aspect of American life, the differences, the gulf between one viewpoint and another viewpoint is more entrenched and clear. So I think really we have to, again, as always, look at these circumstances and map out our own direction, which we're constantly trying to read the tea leaves for, how we're going to navigate and succeed as well as possible. The pendulum does swing to a certain degree, but I think what we're seeing now is unfair. Unfortunately, a very, and we've heard this many times, divided, philosophically divided country, which is concerning for the entire country.

[Romaine Bostick]

Right, but, but that pendulum analogy, I mean, can you even rely on that in this environment?

[Lisa Wardell]

Exactly.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Also, why do we want to look at something that's going to swing at us? We've got to tell people, look inside.

[Lisa Wardell]

We want to look at it if it's coming.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Right.

[Lisa Wardell]

And duck.

[Executive Search Consultant]

And duck, of course. But I do think, think, you know, also telling young people to look, drive with your own values, stop looking outside of yourself for affirmation of what wealth looks like. What does success look like? Define this on your own terms. And I really mean this. I have a seven year old and I'm thinking about, I am thinking about where my son will be in like 20 years. What are the skills that he will need. And I think the pull is to like, be like, yes, over here. Follow this one person. That's not going to work anymore. Look, look where we are now. And I think.

[Romaine Bostick]

But don't people need examples? I mean, here we all are.

[Executive Search Consultant]

We're right here. Yeah, absolutely.

[Ursula Burns]

Yeah. 100% they see them.

[Romaine Bostick]

Do you feel ownership, I mean, of this country? Is, is this your country?

[Ursula Burns]

This is my country. Okay. Absolutely. For. Absolutely.

[Nicole Reebo]

Right.

[Ursula Burns]

This is my country. Absolutely. No doubt.

[Chris Williams]

And this country's been very good to me.

[Ursula Burns]

Exactly, exactly.

[Chris Williams]

I mean, I'm not throwing that out.

[Ursula Burns]

Absolutely.

[Executive Search Consultant]

And the rest of the world.

[Chris Williams]

We ain't going nowhere.

[Romaine Bostick]

And the rest of the world.

[Lisa Wardell]

Absolutely.

[Ursula Burns]

My mother and father came from Panama. I am an American. I am an American and I'm going to fight for my right. In the words that they wrote down. Not, not the way we're living it. The, with the, with the amendments to the Constitution is actually not a bad document. I think this is a great set of rules. Let's go for that.

[Chris Williams]

I mean, your story is remarkable. My father had a seventh grade education. My mother had an 11th grade education. And in this country, they were able to raise and put through college. Three kids own multiple homes and other properties, start their own business, become pillars of the community and have a street named after them. This is a great country. And I agree with you, Ursula. We have the skills and the wherewithal to prepare our own. Unfortunately, I think we've done a pretty good job of lowering the bar for some of our children. Fear has been my number one motivator. Right. So I woke up in the morning and sat around the oven because that was the source of heat in an apartment. And so that fear that comes from that experience of waking up in the morning with my siblings sitting around the oven to get heat. That motivates me. And I think that every generation tries to make things easier for the next generation. So I've worked really hard so they don't have to live that way. But I'm not sure that's such a

[Romaine Bostick]

good thing though, Right.

[Chris Williams]

I'm not sure in the process I've done the right thing by them.

[Executive Search Consultant]

They will have. Like you haven't lowered the bar. It's a beautiful thing to make something easier to step over. You know, I think, why is it that I think it's easier and that's what I mean.

[Lisa Wardell]

Different.

[Executive Search Consultant]

So now they're rather than worrying about what I did, you know, sitting there with, yes, the red line bill from Con Ed, the lights went off, you put your headphones on, you put on like the flashlight and you get on and you do your homework. Okay. Kai will not experience a red line letter from Con Ed, but he will experience other things. So now he has the emotional space to take on other things. I'm worrying about if the rent is going to get paid. I don't want my 7 year old to worry about that. Now he can worry about other things that people still have to navigate that I faced. So I really say the low. There's no lowering of the bar. You're allowing them to like to step higher.

[Nicole Reebo]

If you don't meet your own expectations and God forbid you fail kind of publicly and objectively and what you're trying to do, think of how devastating that is and the pressure that puts on a child or to live up to the expectation, expectations of your parents.

[Executive Search Consultant]

They're going to have their own daughters

[Nicole Reebo]

when you try to do things on your own.

[Lisa Wardell]

And by the way, both of my sons get stopped.

[Executive Search Consultant]

So I hate to tell you, but I know. Well, that's why I'm thinking, let him not worry about Con Ed because he will get stopped. And God, what would I have been able to accomplish if part of my mental health had not been delivered over to dealing with racism, internalizing it, navigating it, showing up in the room, figuring it all out, being competent over competent, blah, blah, blah.

[Chris Williams]

We talk about how the socioeconomic climate is impacting us. I think that there's something even larger impacting our children and that's social media and how much that places a priority on a different set of values.

[Lisa Wardell]

But you know what?

[Chris Williams]

Different because they think they're making it when really they're just faking.

[Lisa Wardell]

But tying that back to this conversation, though part of where we are today, because you started with where are we today as America, part of where we are today is because they want us to look over there, right? Look over there at diversity. When in fact, you know, AI is changing the workforce forever. Not just our children will have a hard time getting a job. All young people, Gen Z and then Gen A will have a hard time getting a job. So I think part of our responsibility is to help people understand this is just another look over there tactic. This is all reborn into cannot success.

[Nicole Reebo]

Success is correct, dependent on the success of America. You ask, are we invested in the success of this country? Absolutely. Because we will not succeed at all if the country doesn't succeed. So we have to do what we can to succeed regardless of the headwinds that we face and try to do we can to see America succeed.

[Ursula Burns]

By the way, one thing if I can disagree, AI does not mean that we will, that our kids will have difficulty getting a job.

[Lisa Wardell]

They'll just have different jobs.

[Ursula Burns]

Yeah. And by the way, I agreed. I am starting to be more and more convinced in my private equity firm we are looking at ways at not ways like fairy tale, real ways. We are going to add a lot of value and take out a lot of drudgery.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Yes.

[Ursula Burns]

Now the thing is that we have to do something useful with that time. We have to figure out what we want, what do we do with that time. And by the way, we better be thinking of things to do with that time. We still have energy problems, we have water problems, we have health care problems, a lot of things to do out there and we just at climate problems, we just can't sit there and go, my God, all the transaction processing work that's, you know, is going to go away. That may be true. Let's make sure we find something to do with these relatively skilled or at least desirous to be skilled people and put them there.

[Executive Search Consultant]

But I do think for AI, I mean wherever people were during the rise of the Internet, think back to 99, 2000. Where were you in that conversation? Were you where you wanted to be? These are the things we should be thinking about for our communities now. Are they in the conversation now? Because if you, do you use, I will be like, do you use the Internet? It's going to become a rote question. And that's why I talk about my son Kai. I think about, you know, him using AI and basically what are the skills that people will need 20 years ago now, 20 years from now that will be fueled by. These are the questions we need to ask, not whether to engage. It's here, it's Evil. It's not. It's here. Let's get on with it. And I would love to hear, you know, more black and brown voices talking about where we are at the intersection of technology right now, but with everything

[Romaine Bostick]

you said around the table. So does this mean that if for some reason we were to convene this, you know, 20 years from now with, you know, maybe your children or something, or you're right. Or your agent hologram or whatever it's going to be, this is going to be a better place for black Americans, for black people around the world.

[Nicole Reebo]

Some of it depends on what we do. I think everyone here is results oriented. So if we sit at this table and only talk about what's wrong, that doesn't make anything better. We have to work with whatever cohort of people and family that we can convene and influence to at least follow steps that help prescribe a path to, to make our little worlds better and hopefully set an example for others to have a chance of making this dialogue a more constructive dialog 20 years from now than it is now. We don't know how the winds will change, the impact of AI, the impact of war, the impact of climate change, the impact of, of clean water, clean air. We know it affects various people and often disproportionately, but we have to control what we can control and also map out plans maybe that have to change and be reworked every year or two, but map out ways to influence everything that we can do.

[Ursula Burns]

I would say 100%. On my dead body. Absolutely.

[Chris Williams]

History repeats itself. And we started this conversation talking about, about these moments in history where we have to deal with the backlash. Each one of those periods has set the stage for us to bounce back and level up. So I think we're getting back to a period where nobody's given us anything. We need to be accountable, prepared, and perform.

[Lisa Wardell]

I agree 100%.

[Executive Search Consultant]

It will be better for black people. I can level up without somebody kicking my ass, though. I can handle a level up without somebody reaching by.

[Chris Williams]

You want to be coached with love and I will coach.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Well, you can, you can do both and you can see which one turns out a little bit better. I think what we're doing right now here is also making the change just by even sitting around this table talking about this will change the outcomes for sure.

[Lisa Wardell]

And I think you can see we are optimistic, results oriented, like solution people. We're not whining.

[Ursula Burns]

I've had a great life. I've never been reset, if you know what I mean by the way. And part of it is, I think maybe my mother was. My mother struggled. We lived in nowhere. We had nothing. Nothing. And she died when she was 49 years old because literally, we couldn't get good health care. But my mother was very clear about how much of the control of my life I have. And she. I think she was lying to me half the time or telling me a story, not lying to me. She said, basically, it's on you. It's on you. Fortunately, I had all these people around me, Mr. Jordan, Ken Chenault, my husband, all these. My mother, my sister, my brother, who said, keep going. You know, you can. It wasn't like, you can do this. It was just keep going. I mean, just keep. Just keep going.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Could I join with you in that, Ursula? Because this one thing to land with people is. It's not one person, one mentor, one parent. It is a constellation of people that you surround yourself with in your life. More so now than ever, when people can be on social media and be socially isolated, It's a common constellation of people that will get you through to the next phase. And I think the. Sort of like, I did it myself or was on my own back.

[Ursula Burns]

I love that statement.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Let's just. It's a constellation, and we have to reach for. Oh, God, that sounds corny. To reach for those stars, and sometimes you have to draw them in. But if people could just, you know, stop thinking, well, I've got to do this on my own. It's my promotions. D. Surround yourself with a constellation of

[Romaine Bostick]

the people does not sound corny. That's.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Thank you.

[Romaine Bostick]

And I think that's a great place to end this conversation.

[Executive Search Consultant]

You all are in my constellation now. This is wonderful.

[Romaine Bostick]

Hopefully we don't have to have it too many more times.

[Executive Search Consultant]

We'll have it.

[Ursula Burns]

We're going to get.

[Chris Williams]

Maybe. Maybe.

[Executive Search Consultant]

Can we do it over food next time? Maybe not on camera. We'll do. Romain, thank you from the bottom of our hearts for being our voice in places and spaces.

[Ursula Burns]

Thank you.

[Romaine Bostick]

Thank you for joining us for today's special presentation of Business Week Convenes a series dedicated to bringing together prominent leaders for discussions on vital and sensitive subjects. Today's conversation centered on. On the state of black leadership in corporate America as we see diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives rolled back across the country. Joining me on today's panel were Ursula Burns, co founder of Integrum holdings, Nicole Reebo, CEO of Rich Talent Group, Jacob Walther Jr. CEO of Blueprint Capital Advisors, Lisa Wardell, board member at American Express, and Chris Williams, the chairman and founder of Siebert Williams Schenck. I'm Romaine Bostick and this is Bloomberg.

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[Romaine Bostick]

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[Ursula Burns]

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[Chris Williams]

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[Ursula Burns]

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[LifeMD Narrator]

of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail].