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A
Every small business owner has that one moment that could have broken them. But remarkably, it didn't. Hi, I'm Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business. And on season three of the Unshakeables, my co host Kathleen Griffith and I are bringing you more incredible stories of overcoming the impossible. We're really proud to share that the Unshakeables is nominated for Best Branded podcast at the 2026 iHeart Podcast Awards. Listen to the Unshakeables wherever you get your podcasts and lear more@chase.com podcast JPMorgan Chase bank and a member FDIC Copyright 20 and 26 JP Morgan Chase Co.
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B
So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now a Global workforce of 300,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions. Resolving 94% of common questions, not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM, thy ticket lady, Jennifer of Coolidge.
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C
Well, many thanks good sir. Here is my Discover card. They accept Discover at Renaissance Fairs? Yeah, they do here. Discover is accepted at the places I love to shop. Get it with the Times. With the Times.
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D
You're playing the loot.
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C
Yeah, and it sounds pretty good, right?
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E
Discover is accepted at 99% of places
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F
that take credit cards nationwide. Based on the February 2025 Nielsen report.
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D
Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News this
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F
is Bloomberg businessweek Daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the pie companies and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast with Carol Massar and Tim Stanbeck on Bloomberg Radio.
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C
Hi everyone. Welcome to the Bloomberg businessweek Week Weekend podcast. This week a volatile collision of geopolitics and the soft landing narrative as the US war against Iran now enters its third week. We've heard the Trump administration speak of a potential off ramp and de escalation, yet kind of mixed messaging to be fair. Yet we've had military strikes continuing to intensify. It's kind of a fog of war moment. It did send crude oil prices skyrocketing this past week to nearly $120 a barrel, only to back down again. Back up again. Yes, just reacting as headlines crossed about the US war in Iran. And that's where we sat as we put Our show to Bed Week. For the latest on the ever crossing headlines on the U.S. war neuron, head to the Bloomberg or to bloomberg.com as
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G
the conflict in the Middle east continued, national security concerns were addressed again. When it comes to access to global energy markets and products, so much of which flows from the region and through the region. Access to commodities, be it oil, rare earths, critical minerals or raw materials, has been a priority of the current Trump administration. And the war reminded us of the need for these materials for US Defense and ammunition applications. We talked about this with the CEO of United States Antimony, which recently was awarded a $27 million contract from the US Department of Defense to build up stockpiles.
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C
Plus some reads this week on US Inflation as US Rates moved up on concerns about higher energy prices caused by the US War in Iran. We also got a read on the consumer. We did that with the chief operating officer of a firm, you know, the Buy Now, Pay later company.
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G
And in the ring she is WWE superstar Charlotte Flair. Now she's stepping out of the ring as an angel investor to help build a wellness brand. We get the real story of the person behind the character.
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C
All of that to come. We begin with the race to secure the US Defense supply chain as the US war in Iran drains US Munitions stockpiles. Even though the government seemed to say in the military like we're okay, safe to say the Pentagon is fast tracking domestic production of things, things like antimony.
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G
It's a critical mineral used in everything from armor piercing bullets to drone batteries and more industrially yet the global supply is currently dominated by China and Russia. Gary Evans is at the center of this supply chain pivot. He's chairman and CEO of U.S. antimony Corporation. It's a $1.4 billion market cap miner, producer and seller of antimony products.
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C
And as we mentioned just a moment ago, the company was recently awarded a $27 million grant from the Department of Defense to scale up domestic extraction. Turns out it looking for more money even from the government to do additional projects.
- [05:01]
E
Thank you for having me back in so quickly.
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C
I know we did. We talked to you last month about a deal that you were doing and you know, and we talked about kind of the build out here in the US and then I was just thinking
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G
about a lot has changed since then.
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C
It was Paul Hewitt, right?
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B
Yeah.
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E
We were the America's Gold Silver and
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C
the two of you guys working together. Where are you guys in terms of the buildout and certainly the deals with the government? And I also think about here we now have the drop the backdrop of the US war in Iran and probably pressure. Something we're going to talk about later in terms of the military stockpiles here
- [05:35]
E
in the US So with respect to the America's gold and silver joint venture, we fortunately already have the land, we already have the permits, which puts us several years ahead. We're doing engineering and construction plans now. We'll start probably in the next 60 days. So we hope to have that plant up and running by this time or summer next year.
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G
This time or summer next year, yeah.
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E
So March to June.
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C
Yeah.
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G
Okay. Okay. So. So it's a little while to get online.
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E
Yeah, well, it just takes a year to build the. We're talking about a $75 million project. It's not a, not a little rinky dink addition.
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C
I wonder about the conversations you continue to have with the US Government and especially again, going back to this backdrop, are you guys constantly talking, are they talking about where are you, you know, what does this mean in terms of US national security? Because I do feel like we are increasingly having conversations and even this week and over the last week and a half when it comes to what we're seeing in the energy markets that even nations around the world are now thinking about. Okay, what do we need to be to be energy efficient? So pick your critical commodity or resource that nations around the world are thinking about this.
- [06:43]
E
Well, so two, two things have happened since I was here a month ago. Last week we won a $27 million grant.
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B
Yep.
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E
From the Department of War. We've been working on that for about six months. The purpose of that money is to reimburse us 20 million-plus or minus for our facility in Thompson Falls, which we've been expanding since May. It goes live in two to three weeks. The other 7 million is for our operations up in Alaska. We have got antimony exploration going on there. So that was what that money is for. And then the week before, we announced a new resource report on another critical mineral that's very vital to the government called tungsten.
- [07:19]
C
Yeah.
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E
And tungsten is the second hardest mineral behind diamonds. And it's used for submarines and tanks for shields. And we bought a property in Canada Sudbury area last May and did enough work to be able to get what's called a third party resource report that you can file with the SEC. And it shows 4.6 billion with a B of future revenues from that property. So we are on a fast track to get that up in operation. We hope to have it done this year.
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G
Should, should investors expect More grants to come down the pipe.
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E
I sure hope so, because we have a $45 million grant request in the Department of Energy. Today we're doing a $75 million grant to the Department of War. In 10 days, we're doing another $15 million grant for the Title 3 for our tungsten plan.
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G
As CEO of the company, you have to plan for what revenue or, or money you will actually get when you plan these projects. What is your expectation that you will get those grants?
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E
Actually, we. As if we're not going to get anything you do. So you can't guarantee the basis.
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G
The base case is we're not getting any money.
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E
We're not getting any money. I think what the government wants us to do is move faster, which is what the money really does, because I have to go raise capital. I have to do lots of things to fund it myself. The government jump starts me, I can move five times faster than I would with my own money.
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G
So Carol asked about discussions with the Pentagon. Yeah, what about? Just discussions with, with other parts of the US Government.
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C
You guys are talking energy.
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G
Yeah. Like, do you have some. Do you have a lobbyist in Washington? Do you have somebody full time for the company in Washington? How do those discussions work?
- [09:02]
E
I hired a guy full time in D.C. about two and a half months ago. He helped me get this final 27 million done. He's the one that filed the DOE grant for 45 million. He is constantly looking. You know, there's buckets of money in the government in all kinds of places that we don't know. And so we're trying to find out what they are. They don't necessarily communicate with one another. So it's a process and then there's a system. I actually hired a former Department of War doctor who's helping us write the white paper. She knows what they're looking for. So we're using all the tools we have available. As you know, General Jack King's on our board. He's given us some guidance. So I was spent last Thursday all day with Donald Trump Jr. In Dallas. We're doing everything we can to try to grease the skids. So they know that we really are trying to help the country.
- [09:52]
C
Gary. Safe to say, and it's only been like a month since we talked last, that the pressure. I think you've already kind of mentioned this, that there is more pressure from the government to kind of get all this stuff up and running.
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E
All you do is listen to the news, you know.
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B
Yeah.
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E
When they, when you, when the news is Saying we're running out of artillery. That's not something you really want to announce to the world.
- [10:12]
C
Well, can you give us some clarity around that? Because I think we're trying to understand is there pressure on US Military in terms of the build back? And I'm just wondering now that we're in our second week of this conflict with Iran, is it causing stress on antimony or other critical mineral shipments? What are you seeing and what can you tell us around that?
- [10:33]
E
Well, we know there's a stockpile and our job is really to build that stockpile further. But it's not just the United States, it's NATO countries, it's Australia.
- [10:43]
B
Right.
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E
So we're trying to figure out ways that we can put like the hydromet facility with America's gold and silver. That's a different technology that we can take subpar antimony and make mission grade material.
- [10:54]
G
What's a, what's a munition? Just for example, purposes Right. Now, what's a munition that includes antimony that's used in this war?
- [11:01]
E
So what we'd make is a metal. It's a 50 pound ingot, a serial stamp put on a pallet, shrink wrapped and shipped to the Department of War. They give that to Northland, Boeing, gm, whoever's making products that needs antimony.
- [11:16]
G
So how long from when you send that shipment, that 50 pound shipment, does it end up in a munition that can be used in a war?
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E
Within days?
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G
That's how quickly they can produce it?
- [11:26]
E
Well, no, they take that ingot and they'll distribute it to their subcontractors of the military. But what I'm trying to do. And all they do is melt it down.
- [11:32]
G
But I'm trying to understand how long it takes the subcontractors to build those weapons.
- [11:36]
E
I got no idea.
- [11:38]
C
We got to call Northrop.
- [11:39]
G
Yeah, yeah, but I mean, we've asked Wayne too. Yeah, like we. There's not a lot of clarity there.
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D
Yeah.
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E
And remember World War II, we shut down all the auto factories and started making tanks and planes and trains and automobiles.
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G
We are not there right now.
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E
No, we're not there. And you know, our goal is to try to be sure the government has these critical minerals in its, in its fuselage. That's what they need.
- [12:03]
C
I just have to say I have a grandmother who was a Rosie the Riveter. So like she was at a GM plant. But the stress on antimony supplies. Now, are we seeing a drawdown?
- [12:14]
E
You know, they don't tell me, but I can tell you Their orders continue to increase. Okay, so as of right now, to fulfill the Department of war's orders for 2026 is $85 million of orders.
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C
Okay, so, okay, what does that compare
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G
to a year ago?
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E
Zero.
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G
Yeah.
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C
Yeah, so it's pretty aggressive. Hey, I, you know, we were thinking about when you were coming in and our planning meeting about President Trump's upcoming meeting with President Xi. The export controls remain kind of an issue between these two countries. When it comes to these critical minerals and materials. Have you seen any indication that China is about to kind of loosen their export restrictions? You're shaking your head of rare earth elements and permanent magnets.
- [12:58]
E
Well, together there's a difference between the rare earths and critical minerals. When Trump met.
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C
And I know we always do this when.
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E
Yeah, they get, they, people get them confused, and it's understandable. Trump came out of that with a one year reprieve on rare earths. He actually said critical minerals. The Prime Minister or the Ministry of China the next day said, no, no, no critical minerals. So when, when tungsten and antimony were stopped, that was September of 24. That's before Trump was in office. That was during the Biden administration. Why did that happen? The largest antimony mine in the world, called Twinkle Star in China, depleted 125-year-old mine. The largest in the world. Done. So China has been, you know, every day that I'm in the market trying to buy antimony, my only competitor is the People's Republic of China. And they're out there throwing money, roads, bridges, whatever they have to do to get that country to sell them antimony. And so I am their competitor in the market.
- [14:00]
C
So what do you want President Trump to do?
- [14:02]
E
We need floors. I mean, we're dealing with, we're dealing with a gorilla that can drive the price down and lose money.
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D
Yeah.
- [14:10]
E
And we're talking about the country of China. So we need price floors to protect the industry geographically.
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G
How is it distributed around the world.
- [14:19]
E
As far as antimony, it's typically found with gold. We're currently receiving antimony from the country of Chad, Bolivia, Peru, Chile, Australia, Mexico. Now, so every time you look at those antimony deposits in those countries, different grade, it may have arsenic, it may have sulfur, it may have lead. We have to deal with that in our smelters. So we prefer clean antimony.
- [14:45]
C
Do you see anything? You know, we go from administration to administration and you know, China is a nation that's got these long term plans. Right. And they, as you said, 100 year plan. Right, exactly. Very different. Just got about 30 seconds. Do you believe that what we are seeing now in these domestic builds of critical precious metals, rare earths, all this stuff, that it will continue no matter.
- [15:07]
E
It's a wake up call. We've been sitting behind the log for 20 years watching this happen and all of a sudden it happened. And so it's a huge wake up call. And this industry has the capability of meeting these needs. We need time and we need money, but it can be done.
- [15:21]
C
All right. You are such a gem for always finding time for us and coming back and, you know, you educate us along the way. So we so appreciate it.
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B
You're welcome.
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C
Congratulations on the listing as well.
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E
Thank you so much.
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C
Gary Evans, he's chairman and CEO of United States Antimony Corporation right here in studio. They told us to expect change. They warned us about the transition, but honestly, they forgot the best part. This is the chapter where we finally focus on us. LifeMD delivers expert menopause and midlife care right from your home. From hormone health to holistic wellness, LifeMD helps you feel your best for the best years of your life. LifeMD. It's just getting good. Visit LifeMD.com GoodLife Ryan Reynolds here from
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B
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D
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E
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- [17:10]
F
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm p.m. eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.
- [17:24]
C
We continue to try to track this economy amid a war and some mixed signals. Remember, it was just one week ago US jobs data showed a labor market that shed 92,000 jobs. Just as US household debt hit a record $18.8 trillion in the fourth quarter of 2025, driven by rising mortgage and credit card balances. Now rates briefly dropped. Mortgage rate briefly dropped below 6% in late February after cheaper rates and flattening home prices raised expectations for a slightly improved spring sales season. But a drawn out war would push oil prices even higher, stoking inflation and further fueling upward pressure on the treasury yields that guide home loans.
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G
Combine that with delinquencies at their highest level since 2017 with 4.8% of debt in some stage of delinquency as high interest rates strain borrowers. Also another thing putting pressure on consumers. And Carol, you just mentioned this higher costs associated with energy. As a result of the U.S. war in Iran, U.S. residential heating prices surged above $5 a gallon. That's the highest going back to November of 2022 as the war strains global diesel and crude flows critical for home heating. For a gut check on consumers, we spoke with Michael Linford, the COO of the Buy Now, Pay later company. Affirm. Good to have you on the program. How are you?
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B
Thank you so much for having me. I'm doing great.
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C
We had a great conversation before.
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B
We. I'm just telling you, I'll be honest,
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G
you were a fly on the wall upstairs getting snacks. So I was, I wasn't here for it.
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C
So great to.
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G
Hopefully we can continue that conversation. A firm's in a unique position because of the way that you extend credit to consumers. That so called Buy Now, Pay later, relatively new. Not everybody's familiar with how it works, but it does give you and it gives us a snapshot at a moment in time of exactly how the consumer is doing based on what they're spending money on, what they're defaulting on, what they aren't. What are you seeing now?
- [19:19]
B
Yeah, we get a really good signal and because of our business model where we're doing transaction level underwriting, we say yes and no to every transaction. The consumer is trying to get through the system. Because of that, we have to monitor credit like daily. It's not a thing we look at with our quarterly reports. Every day we wake up and look and get a very good signal as to how the consumer is doing. And we look at really two things. Look at how they're spending, where are they out engaged with, with merchants, where they're spending their money, what's, what's top of mind in purchasing and then how they're doing on the credit repayment, how they're doing with delinquencies. And both really are quite robust. Right now, we see a really engaged consumer. They're out engaged with our merchant base. Very.
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G
Which means they're buying.
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B
They're buying stuff.
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G
A euphemism for spending money.
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B
They're not retreating. They're not afraid.
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C
That's what I tell my husband, honey, I'm just engaged.
- [20:11]
B
Engagement. Yeah, but they're not. They're not hiding, is the point. The consumer. Isn't, isn't, isn't. These fears and these headlines that are going on really aren't affecting our consumer down the middle yet. And that's true, really, across all categories, including categories like ticketing and travel. Consumers are still as engaged there as before. And on the credit side, things continue to go really, really well with consistent repayment with what we expect.
- [20:36]
C
Michael, how many yeses and nos do you do? Like, I'm just curious, as things come across, and how has that changed?
- [20:41]
B
It's a great question. You know, our approval rates overall really haven't changed. And when we talk about it, we do a bit of a disservice because for us, it's actually not just yes or no. We have a wide set of products, and we have a wide set of ways we can configure the yes or no to engineer better credit outcomes. So that can be something as simple as, hey, we need a little bit of down payment on this transaction because we don't think you can afford the whole amount, or we can change the term length or adjust the implied monthly payment amount. We have a lot of leverage at our disposal to try to find a way to say yes to the consumer as much as possible.
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C
All right, so how much more are you saying? Not yes right away until you kind of figure out.
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D
Yeah, yeah.
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C
And what they do.
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B
I think that our overall posture right now is one where we're as concerned with the headlines as everybody else is. We're obsessed, obsessed with monitoring credit. But we don't feel the need to make, you know, massive corrections in the credit box of the. Of the business right now. Because what we do is we wake up every day again, like I said, and we look at 34 days ago, the origination mix, and we look at the expected credit outcomes against what we actually have.
- [21:47]
D
Right?
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B
And if those lines are on top of each other, we can keep the credit posture the same. If they begin to deviate, that's when we have to act.
- [21:54]
G
So if somebody uses a firm, they have an account already, you have a familiar profile of them. At what point do you say to them, you have bought enough stuff to pay for later that we're not going to continue extending credit for you.
- [22:08]
B
Yeah, it varies by consumer. You know, we have both this concept of.
- [22:12]
G
It's essentially maxing out a credit card.
- [22:14]
B
Yeah, we have, we have a concept of some, some exposure that we'd like to have for consumers. And it varies by consumer. We also have other controls around. We call velocity controls, which is how quickly a consumer is taking up. You know, again, if you think about the contrast with the credit card business model, credit cards give you a line and then they just hope it goes well and then they can. They wait and see what happens. If they try to affect that line, they have to take pretty big steps because we're underwriting every transaction. We can, we can be really thoughtful around what makes sense for you in that moment in that transaction. And it's, it creates dramatically different credit outcomes and allows us to navigate these really volatile times very differently. You know, I always caution any listeners to not extrapolate too much our credit results to the, to the wider consumer base writ large. Because I don't know how much, you know, short term installment loans actually translates to some of the more traditional credit signals that we look at for consumer credit. I think it's a superior way. I do think that we will engineer better credit outcomes through the cycle because of it. But it does mean that there's maybe a little bit of concern around trying to extrapolate too much the positive signal we have today.
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G
So in other words, you're dealing with a sliver of the economy and you don't necessarily think you can draw signals about the greater economy based on what's happening with that group.
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B
I think the group is really wide. So a thing about our consumer is that it's a really wide set of consumers. There's certainly some super low income and low credit quality folks and high income and high credit quality folks we don't serve. But those are on the extremes. The vast majority of consumers are served really well. Think of it as very median American. So I think from a segment standpoint, it is a really good signal. But the financial product that we deliver yields different outcomes than you. What you might see with traditional unsecured
- [24:00]
C
consumer credit, I kind of get it, but I think the level of activity, I mean, we were talking before we got going and you're just saying your business just kind of. The market continues to grow, so there's more and more people tapping into it.
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B
Yeah, the network is growing with really strong user growth. Yeah. So we're adding a lot of users
- [24:18]
C
to the Network new users or existing users just using it more and more.
- [24:22]
B
It's really both. And it's because we're earning big distribution. You know, we just announced a partnership with Lowe's, for example, or a partnership with Intuit QuickBooks. These big distribution opportunities allow us to expose our product to more consumers. We still think we're super early in the distribution of the category. It seems crazy because we've been talking about this for several years now, but we are still so early. You know, we're a meaningful portion of U.S. e commerce were not so much a meaningful portion of offline commerce. And we always like to reframe the conversation. There's $1.3 trillion of revolving credit debt in the United States. We are rounding around that and we're really excited to go make that number smaller.
- [24:59]
G
So if we think about it from the perspective of companies, and the companies you partner with, Lowe's partners with you. And then they're paying. Like if I buy something with a firm on Lowe's or from Lowe's, Lowe's then pays you. And that's how you get money.
- [25:14]
B
Yeah. There's two revenue sources for us. We have both the consumer and the merchant side. Merchants pay us a discount rate depending upon the product being offered. If it's a 0% offer, there's more discount and if it's an interest bearing offer, it's lower. And then consumers on the interest bearing loans will pay us interest. But in all cases, never any late fees, never any deferred interest or those products.
- [25:34]
G
What's the typical interest rate for an affirm loan?
- [25:38]
B
It ranges between 0 and 36%. And it really is segmented by both the credit quality and again the merchant program. You know, merchants who are concerned with or focused on affordability may pay higher MDRs to allow us to average that down the credit.
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C
Why did they have to be so high?
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G
I mean, you're 36%.
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C
Well, I'm just, I'm hearing you get a smaller portion of people that are maybe at the lower income strength.
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G
The president wants to see lower.
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C
I know, I know he does. Elizabeth Warren probably does too. I'm just understanding why does it have to be so high? It sounds like you don't have a lot of problems or delinquencies. So why do you have to have that overhead?
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B
Well, there is always a cost of credit in any lender.
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C
I get it, but it seems extreme.
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B
Yeah. And I think that the.
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C
And I'm not just you, it's just in general.
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B
But I'm curious, your Take my take is that the price of credit, whether that's the APR or the interest rate that's charged, is only part of the picture. The other part of the picture is the product itself. Credit cards, they charge a high rate and then they compound interest on interest. Their idea is to keep balances high and let those numbers multiply. You know, credit card companies don't like to see balances go down.
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G
They don't make money.
- [26:52]
B
Our product, while some of the APRs can be higher because these are all short term closed end installment loans that all amortize very quickly. The dollar cost of credit, the actual dollars and cents of your purchase costs, the cost of credit for that transaction ends up being very low. And consumers can check out and they know, okay, this $500 purchase has $17 of interest cost and that's $17. It can never be a penny more than that. That certainty gives consumers the ability to put the cost of credit in context of what they're buying. And oftentimes those numbers make a lot more sense to the consumer than an apr, which is really abstract and very hard for consumers to understand.
- [27:32]
C
I am curious that credit card companies have to be watching you guys too. As you. As I think we before we got go. They are a massive industry and you guys see that as potential for you, for yourselves. But what's to stop them from also saying we got to be doing this too. So more competition.
- [27:48]
G
I get stuff from my like I'll look at my credit card like a purchase and it'll say pay over time. Yeah, it'll offer that. And I feel like they're just trying to like do buy now, pay later type thing.
- [27:56]
C
You can even do that kind of with American Express you can kind of table some things and which is a
- [28:00]
G
charge card typically or the product that you're talking about.
- [28:03]
C
Yeah, or you have to pay it off the end month, but they let you do stuff. But I'm just being more leaning in.
- [28:08]
B
I think the banks really are going to pay attention more and more to this category as we continue to take real share of payment tender in the United States. The thing is, oftentimes large industries that have 30 years of business model cemented into how they operate have a really hard time adjusting to consumer preferences as they change. We really believe this is a situation where old technologies like a blockbuster has a hard time cannibalizing itself in the face of a brand new business model. Every CFO I talk to or hear from at a credit card bank is not willing to cannibalize a revolving credit product for an installment product. They don't know how to do transaction level underwriting and create the same pool of profit that they do on revolving accounts. And that's our opportunity.
- [28:55]
C
I have to ask you, is there anything you guys would say? No, you can't do that with buy now, pay later. Is there something like you would say no, doesn't make sense.
- [29:02]
B
But we're concerned with categories that have a high degree of fraud. We're concerned with whether or not the merchant is honest in their presentation to the consumer. We try really hard not to be paternalistic about what it is that you use your product for. One person's necessity can be another person's luxury. Maybe sunglasses feel like a luxury to you, but if you just had eye surgery, it's a really important thing to protect your eyes. Maybe a TV and you had a two year old at home and you work from home, you need a way to entertain your two year old. The TV becomes a necessity for you, not a luxury. And so we try really hard not to be deciding for the consumer what's important. Our view is if you are going to use a credit card, you should use a permit stick.
- [29:43]
C
All right, great chat. Thank you so much.
- [29:45]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [29:45]
C
Really enjoyed it. Michael Linford, he is the chief operating officer of course of Firm joining us right here in Oppenberg Interactive Broker Studio.
- [29:59]
D
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- [30:28]
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- [32:01]
F
this is the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 11:30.
- [32:19]
C
All right. Something we like to talk about a lot here at Bloomberg, especially with our Pursuits team, is the global wellness market.
- [32:25]
G
It's no longer a niche market. In fact, global wellness is now a $6.8 trillion powerhouse that's projected to hit close to $10 trillion by the end of this decade. That's according to the latest notes from the Global Wellness Institute.
- [32:38]
C
How come we're spending so much and I still feel not so well?
- [32:42]
G
How much time do we have, Carol?
- [32:44]
C
All right, we'll table that for another broadcast. At the intersection of the global wellness surge and women's sports is our next guest. For over a decade, Ashley Flair, known to, I would say to say a global audience as Charlotte Flair has been a top tier superstar for wwe, winning numerous championships including the WWE Women's championship, a record 14. Now she's leveraging her brand equity as an angel investor specifically in the mental health and apparel space with the brand Self Care is for everyone. She joined me alongside Bloomberg's Nora Melinda, who is in for Tim.
- [33:22]
D
You know, I, I still have hopes and dreams within the WWE and Charlotte Flair and my passion for wrestling means the world to me and I still, you know, have many years left on my career but when I was injured last year, you know, there is a shelf life for women in sports and I really didn't know or what I or what do I want to do next. And I have really gravitated towards the self care mental health space and that's really helped me, I feel, get through the last couple of years in my career and feeling like I couldn't talk about anxiety and the pressure of being perfect on screen because the character that I play, Charlotte Flair Is so perfect. And this past year, I feel as I since I've gravitated towards the mental health care and talking about it, it's helped grow my brand. I've been able to connect with fans and realizing it's okay not to be okay. So when this opportunity from self care, the two owners, AJ and Sasha, came with me with this opportunity and asked me to be an angel investor, I was like, wow, I feel like this is a perfect fit and where to put my investment and my time into them to help make this a safe space for athletes, for public figures, for parents, for anyone. Because it has been taboo for so long, and whether it be the affirming apparel or the easily accessible mental health tools, that self care is for everyone that we're trying to grow in 2026, I'm just honored to be a part of it. So how many of your physical injuries were a mental health journey? And did it at all change your perspective on what strength really is? I definitely think when I hurt my knee, that's I tore my acl. I don't think I was in the right. I was in the right state of mind, meaning whether it was imposter syndrome, that dialogue, that how we talk to ourselves, that inner self talk, I feel like I was in a very negative space and not opening up about it. And the anxiety of, you know, being a woman that's approaching 40, what that looks like, the demands and it's, you know, I want to be able to say I'm a woman, and what I want more of is time and all that pressure adding up. I feel like the reason I hurt my knee is because I wasn't all there performing. And for someone who has, I always looked at myself as the iron woman. And when my knee took me out, I was like, all I viewed myself was as a professional wrestler. Like, that's all I am, and that's not all I. And I do have a voice. And maybe this is the start of something bigger for me. Like, I love being Charlotte, but taking Charlotte to the next level and making these conversations more accessible or not taboo for people in any kind of industry, I think is so important.
- [36:19]
C
Yeah, I think there's something too, in the timing, Ashley. Like, I feel like increasingly athletes are coming out, men and women, and just talking about, you know, the stresses, the difficulties, you know, being, you know, at a high point and then having an injury, and then it's just so tough to come back. We see it over and over, but I think the mental wellness component, the stress on athletes of all kinds to perform increasingly, it's really tough, whether it
- [36:45]
D
be athletes, whether it be a stay, you know, a single mom work. I mean there's it, it crosses over to everyone. And with the apparel that we've created, walking down the street and you see a sweatshirt that says you are enough, it's that simple. And it opens a dialogue. And I hope investing in Self Care is for everyone with that mission to just make those topics easy every day.
- [37:10]
C
I want to ask you too though. We love talking about the wellness market in all its different shapes and sizes, if you will. The wellness market nearing a $7 trillion valuation. Talk to us about the due diligence that you guys did that led to the creation of Self Care is for Everyone, you know, and tell us about how you were thinking about it. It's a competitive space.
- [37:30]
D
It's definitely competitive. But so for me, Self Care is for Everyone was founded in 2018. I had already been following this site before I even know who the owners were. It was just like little messaging, you know, you are enough, you have a voice. My own messaging that I put on my social media, whether it be Twitter, Instagram or TikTok, I always say, say P.S. i hope you feel beautiful today because like, you know, on those days as women when you don't feel so beautiful but you have to show up, you have to put on that smiling face. And for me being on TV, it's like P.S. i hope you feel beautiful today as a 39 year old woman competing in an industry where like they do age, you know, like that's just. Television is hard for women. So this company was founded in 2019. When AJ and Sasha came to me this year, my financial person did their due diligence. Seeing, you know what, how they have grown, what this space looks like, what the investment into them looks like. And for me, wanting to have a diversified portfolio, where is the best place to put my money to help them grow. And that's how much I believe in what they've already done and what they brought to me. Plus they have a six month campaign with Target already with Kleenex, which is an everyday product which you see our messaging on. So from a business standpoint, I am just the investor. Exactly what they have raised. I could not tell you the numbers, but I do know for suicide prevention and the apparel, I was blown away what they've just been able to do with just the online presence.
- [39:08]
C
So Ashley, your branding goes on different products, right? Is that how it works or no?
- [39:13]
D
I'm sorry. So for this company for self care is everyone. They've already started to put their messaging on, on everyday products such as Kleenex. We just did a, they did a six month deal in Target. So them bringing what they've already been able to do with the help of my branding and push and being their first angel investor.
- [39:36]
B
Got it.
- [39:36]
D
Hoping to grow there. So I believe in what they've already done and they believe in me and what I have aligned with my, with my branding. That's why they brought me on board. But I've been able to see their numbers and what they're capable of from a business standpoint. But for me, I believe this was the right investment due to wanting just to help. So like how can you go wrong? Yeah, I mean the ultimate goal is to make money and it is a business. But like to me, when you don't know what to do with. Not like I don't know what my next step is after wwe, but what I do know is I want to help people. That's why I invested in them. Because I know you can't go wrong and helping create a safe space for people. I want to become the person that I needed growing up and I felt like investing in self care for everyone was like the perfect step in that. Well, I want to go back to that. If you could go back to Ashley at the beginning of your career before the global fame, what is one self care mantra that you would whisper to her? Just believe in yourself, be your own hero. Like wrestling wasn't always. It was never in my to do list or dreams or, you know, I, I played volleyball in college and I graduated. I was lost. I became a personal trainer. I always was drawn to public relations. I did like pr. But then my little brother who had a really bad drug addiction, always wanted to follow in my father's footsteps. So I thought, you know, maybe if I tried wrestling because I was given the opportunity by Triple H, our head of creative now in 2012, that I could get him on the right path. So when I started, I really didn't know what I was getting into because I, you know, I liked wrestling. But back then, you know, women were secondary storylines. They were eye candy. I never viewed myself as a professional wrestler, supermodel, anything like that. So when I started, it was just more me needing to save myself from a prior situation. So it's funny, I spent my whole life trying to save my little brother who ended up dying a couple months after I started. When ultimately he saved me and gave me this dream. And I feel I have Helped change the landscape for women in a male dominated industry in wrestling. So if I can take something from nothing and turn what I did, the character of Charlotte into today is the most decorated woman of all time. What can I do in the mental health. The mental health space with the work ethic and the passion that I had for wrestling and bring that same passion to helping people, you know. Yeah. Create that space with the determination I had in wrestling.
- [42:18]
C
Yeah.
- [42:19]
D
And I wish, like, for my brother who passed away, yes, he, he had a drug addiction, but I really feel in 2000, like, from, you know, the early 2000s to 2012, I don't think. I think it was taboo for men to say they had anxiety or what they were dealing with or pressures and not saying, my brother would have been, you know, still with us, but at least, like, it's okay for men to be like, hey, I'm burnt out.
- [42:46]
C
Yeah, I feel like, you know, it's. And first of all, and most, mostly Ashley, so sorry for your loss and thank you.
- [42:53]
D
Thank you.
- [42:54]
C
And you know, things that life throws at us and how we figure out a way forward. And then, you know, it's really heartening to hear you talk about, you know, wanting to help others. And I get it. I think Covid, though, was something that opened up where everybody was feeling stressed.
- [43:10]
E
Right.
- [43:10]
C
It was something that everybody was talking about mental health and mental wellness and. And it was just a really, really big change in terms of the conversation more broadly. So I can totally get why you're also drawn to it. I'm also, you know, you said about men versus women, what was the most difficult aspect of that difference for you in wwe or did you not feel it?
- [43:37]
D
I feel the women who came before me that helped change the landscape that have been grinding for the, you know, 20, 30 years before me. They probably felt it more. But when I started and the group of women that I, I came in with, who I champion every day, you know, we're not all as close as, you know, success and competitiveness and competition, takeover and always wanting to be at the top of your business. But we were part of this change. And when Stephanie McMahon debuted us, and then there was one other girl who debuted a year later, the. The Four Horsewomen. That's what we were coined as in 2015 when Give Divas a Chance trended for three days, we were part of that rise where we were given the same amount of opportunities and time and segments as the men. And then ultimately myself, Becky Lynch, Ronda Rousey, ended up main eventing WrestleMania 35 and MetLife. And if you would ask someone even maybe a year prior to that with the women ever main event a show, they would have like laughed. But what we were able to create is that women are capable of selling merchandise, putting people in seats, being top of the card, getting equal, equal opportunities in the ring. So I just, from the day I started, I had one goal to where I am now. So do I feel things go like this 100% right? Do I think I'm as big a star as any male? Absolutely. I almost cussed, but I didn't.
- [45:13]
C
We're glad you didn't. But it's a great way to end. And you're absolutely right because we're seeing this massive surge in valuations for women's sports, whether it's wnba, nwsl. I mean there's just so much. And women's wrestling, you have to give
- [45:24]
D
them the opportunity and the backing and the advertisement. Yeah, that's it.
- [45:28]
C
Right.
- [45:28]
D
Perception is reality and if you do that, then the audience follows.
- [45:33]
C
Well, listen, this was a joy spending some time with you and good luck and stay in touch and let us know how things are going. Ashley, you. You bet. Thank you. Ashley Flair, of course, also known as Charlotte Flair, the WWE Superstar, joining us on this Monday and of course talking about her brand self care is for everyone. So great stuff there.
- [45:56]
F
This is the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast available on Apple, Spotify and anywhere else you get your podcasts listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live Every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal. Are you a fraud paying American? 1 in 4 tax paying Americans has been a victim of identity fraud With Lifelock. If your identity is stolen, they fix it guaranteed or your money back. Last year billions in refunds were stolen. Stolen could be from your salary, overtime or second job gone. But this year you don't need to stay a victim. Because this tax season, fraud paying American is something no American should have to claim. Save up to 40% your first year. Visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply. Pro drivers live for race day. But for small business owners, every day is race day. That's why going pro with Lenovo Pro Matters one on one advice IT solutions and customized hardware powered by Intel Core Ultra processors. Keep your business on the right track. Business goes pro with Lenovo Pro. Sign up for free@lenovo.com Pro. It's football season and now you can get anything you need for game day delivered with Uber Eats.
- [47:36]
A
Well, almost.
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F
Almost anything. You can't get a running back, but baby back ribs.
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E
Yes.
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F
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