Tim Stenovec (3:06)

Yeah, Pershing Square USA fell 18% in its debut this week. That's below that book value of $50 a share. Plus we also got a slew of earnings this week. We got quarterly updates from five of the MAG7, Microsoft, Meta Alphabet, Amazon and Apple.

Carol Massar (3:25)

What did we call it, tim? Something like 80 seconds or less than that.

Tim Stenovec (3:28)

It was 80 seconds last quarter and then this week it was 71 seconds when all these companies reported. It was on Wednesday afternoon.

Carol Massar (3:37)

It was crazy.

Tim Stenovec (3:38)

It was crazy.

Carol Massar (3:39)

These companies, these four big Mag 7 companies, all dropping within less than two minutes time. It was crazy. There were lots of other earnings this week. We also got results from Wayfair, the company. CFO Kate Gulliver joined us to talk about the consumer, the trend, the buying trends that are out there and building out the company's retail exposure.

Tim Stenovec (3:58)

And we'll wrap the hour and the crazy week with Chris Worth, director of sustainability at OPC Wines Spirits. We talk farming, climate change, consumer tastes and more. Oh yeah, we sampled a little bit of wine as well.

Carol Massar (4:10)

Yeah, there are three different choices. Tried em all. Anyway, we'll get to that later on this hour. All of that to come.

Tim Stenovec (4:15)

I think you took some of the bottles too, if I recall. Cheryl, it wasn't that you just tried them.

Carol Massar (4:21)

No comment.

Tim Stenovec (4:22)

Tried and enjoyed them all.

Carol Massar (4:23)

All for journalistic endeavors. Wasn't the only one. All of that to come on the weekend edition of Bloomberg Businessweek. We start though with those big tech earnings so important to investor sentiment and market momentum.

Tim Stenovec (4:36)

For a roundup on how the big hyperscalers stacked up when it came to CapEx and how investors reacted. And the incredible 71 seconds of that earnings drop, we leaned on Bloomberg Intelligence global head of technology research, Mandeep Singh.

Carol Massar (4:49)

That was just one day. That was the drop on Wednesday. Mandeep, good to have you here. There were some big broad things that we were looking for as we headed into this big drop of tech earnings this week.

Mandeep Singh (5:01)

Yeah, look, ROI on this. Capex was a big theme. And what we heard from these companies is not only are their cloud infrastructure business accelerating, which is what we saw with Google, Microsoft and Amazon. I mean, think of it this way. Public cloud infrastructure was growing 20%. The combined market was $400 billion. Now we know that growth rate has gone from 20% to 40%. That aggregate $400 billion. And that's what I think should convince investors about the ROI on the infrastructure side. On the application side, you are starting to see Google Gemini really show up in terms of driving subscription revenue, which is why Google had such a solid print. Meta on the other hand, wasn't very convincing in terms of showing that agentic AI contribution to the top line, even though they grew, you know, 33% in the quarter and had very strong guidance. But it's just the delineation between how much is AI versus how much is core business, which is phenomenal, doing really well. I think that was the missing link in the case of Meta.

Carol Massar (6:16)

Mandeep, one thing I want to ask you, I mean, each of these companies massive in their own right, well known obviously, but they're not all the same kind of companies. What's the secret sauce that Alphabet Google has right now?

Mandeep Singh (6:28)

Google has that vertical integration. Think of what Apple has done so well over the past 10 years. On the consumer device side, Google is showing that on the data center side, they have the chips to train their LLMs. They have the chips for inference for their LLMs. They're deploying it on their Google cloud. And really that vertical integration gives them that capex efficiency which is missing from the likes of Meta or even for that matter, Microsoft who have to pay Nvidia for all the chips. So there is that premium when it comes to procuring the chips. And just the data center costs are much higher, 15 to 20% higher for meta and Microsoft than it is for Google.

Tim Stenovec (7:20)

So that speaks to the efficiency part of what we learned when it comes to Alphabet, when it comes to Google, how much of the capacity for their cloud business is used by themselves versus other customers? And who are those other customers?

Mandeep Singh (7:37)

I mean, this quarter we learned Google Cloud, the external business, which is almost an $80 billion run rate, grew 63%. Now think of, you know, if they're able to sustain that kind of growth rate, they will take share from Amazon and Microsoft when it comes to the overall cloud pie. Because Amazon AWS, yes, it's bigger $150 billion, but it's growing 28%. So Google's growth rate is more than two times Amazon right now. But to your point about capacity, they are using almost 50% of that capacity still for search and you know, Gemini and their internal use case. But that's again the advantage they have with tpus is they control the supply. I mean, yes, they have to get it fab that tsmc. But beyond that, they can do a lot more with the $180 billion in capex spend in terms of number of chips versus what others are able to do because they have to upgrade to Nvidia's latest chips and they have to pay up for Nvidia's latest architecture. So they're getting a lot bigger cluster and lot bigger capacity than other hyperscalers.

Tim Stenovec (8:49)

Are they also at this point selling their TPUs?

Mandeep Singh (8:51)

Yes. So that's the latest deal with Anthropic, which is a multi year deal for 3.5 gigawatt capacity that kicks off starting 2027. But clearly they have demand for TPUs beyond Google Cloud and their own usage. And that's where that Anthropic deal is very important in terms of the long term ramp for TPUs.

Carol Massar (9:15)

All right, so Mandeep, yay for Alphabet and Google. Who's the contrast? Who is it doing so well that we got this past week in terms of earnings and I don't know whether. Do you contrast that with Meta? Do you contrast that which is. That stock was under pressure. It's under pressure this year. Year to date we saw cutting jobs also this week. So I'm just. Who's the flip side of the coin to all the great that we're seeing with Alphabet and Google?

Mandeep Singh (9:43)

I mean right now it has to be Meta simply because they don't have that separate cloud business line on the infrastructure side like you see with the other hyperscalers. But look, even an Oracle could come under pressure with all the shifts around OpenAI. So OpenAI previously was exclusive to Microsoft. Now they have this big deal with Amazon where Amazon is investing 50 billion. OpenAI is deploying their models on Amazon. So that could cause few shifts, especially in terms of OpenAI's relationship with Oracle, for example. And you know there could be an impact in terms of whose infrastructure gets utilized more compared to what we saw in the past 12 months.

Carol Massar (10:30)

But from the big tech earnings this week, the big hyperscalers, the real contrast between Alphabet is we saw it in Meta.

Mandeep Singh (10:36)

Meta. I mean Meta doesn't even have their own LLM that they are deploying on their family of apps. So think of where Alphabet.

Tim Stenovec (10:44)

But they do, they do within, within Instagram, within WhatsApp. Those are LLMs, right?

Mandeep Singh (10:48)

The usage. I mean think of how Alphabet is doing with search. Like AI overviews has all Gemini content.

Tim Stenovec (10:55)

Yeah.

Mandeep Singh (10:55)

In the case of Instagram and what. And WhatsApp or Facebook, you don't like Meta. AI is an option but people don't use it.

Tim Stenovec (11:03)

I will tell you, I do not use it. I have never used it. It's never been something that I've even.

Mandeep Singh (11:08)

And the meta AI standalone app has got a handful of users compared to their 3 billion users across the family of apps.

Tim Stenovec (11:16)

So is it simply put, when you see Capex from meta platforms, that's for their own use and that's why investors are not that happy about it.

Mandeep Singh (11:24)

And they have a vision which definitely resonates with investors, that they want to deploy more personalized agents that can book travel for you, that can do things for you, even order food for example.

Tim Stenovec (11:37)

That's fine. But this is an advertising company. This is a company that makes money when we click on ads that show up on our Instagram.

Mandeep Singh (11:44)

So was Google, but look at how much Google has ramped up on the subscription side. Google subscription line is almost 70, $75 billion now if you add YouTube subscriptions and Gemini subscriptions. So they have diversified beyond ads to consumer subscriptions. Obviously cloud is a big part of that diversification. You don't have that in meta.

Tim Stenovec (12:05)

So you think that's a real opportunity for meta. You say investors are buying that story right now.

Mandeep Singh (12:10)

I mean everyone believes meta has that surface to deploy agents. It's just a matter of having a good product that they believe in and they do it at scale.

Tim Stenovec (12:21)

Should we talk about Apple?

Carol Massar (12:22)

Oh well, it's such a little company. I think we should talk about massive company. That was the earnings that we got this past week. Thursday after the closing bell, I know everybody was like, yeah, yeah, it's going to be about the new incoming CEO but the numbers still matter. Like people cared. Investors care.

Tim Stenovec (12:39)

Yeah, it was that revenue forecast for the third quarter that really got the stock moving that they, you know, that they mentioned on the call.

Mandeep Singh (12:45)

It's amazing how Apple refresh cycle continues to do so well. You know, after every two years you see a big refresh upgrade cycle that drives double digit growth in iPhone category. And that just goes to show the retention they have.

Tim Stenovec (13:01)

So what is it? Is it the 17e that lower end phone or is it the higher end phone?

Mandeep Singh (13:04)

The higher end phone. It's always about the higher end phone with Apple and they have a lot of stickiness. But look, once we are past that upgrade cycle, I still think they will fall back to that mid to high single digit growth rate which you compare to the other hyperscalers like Google growing 22% at a $400 billion run rate a lot and ability to sustain that kind of growth rate with the investments they're making. That's what's missing from Apple, that sustainability

Tim Stenovec (13:36)

of growth hey Mandeep, you mentioned the new CEO John Ternus. He says, quote, we have an incredible roadmap ahead. This is the most exciting time in my 25 year career at Apple to be building products and services. Is that true?

Mandeep Singh (13:49)

Well, I think again from a hardware perspective, there is no better company when it comes to consumer hardware. So I will concede, like I haven't seen an alternative built around, you know, these LLMs when it comes to challenging Apple's hardware position. But I better hope that as part of the roadmap they have an AI strategy because right now it feels like they're leaving too much on third party LLMs to help out. When it comes to AI specifically, Mandeep, you just rock.

Carol Massar (14:23)

Nobody knows this stuff like you do and you just tie it all together. Mandeep Singh, of course, oversees our global tech at Bloomberg Intelligence, joining us here. Up next, we stay with earnings and we catch up with a great read on the contrary consumer the housing market. We do that with the CFO of Wayfair, Kate Gulliver.

Kate Gulliver (14:46)

We feel great about the quarter that we printed. I think we're very focused on the fundamentals. And are we doing two things? Are we expanding our share gains in a category that you know, as your team covered is is complex right now and challenging? And are we expanding our profitability? And we're doing both.

Tim Stenovec (15:04)

You're listening to Bloomberg Businessweek. This this is Bloomberg.

Public Investing Narrator (15:14)

Support for the show comes from Public. Lately it feels like there are two types of investing platforms. Some are traditional brokerages that haven't changed much in decades and others feel less like investing and more like a game. Public is positioned differently. It's an investing platform for people who are serious about building their wealth on public. You can build a portfolio of stocks, options, bonds, crypto without all the bugs or the confetti. Retirement accounts.

Mandeep Singh (15:40)

Yep.

Public Investing Narrator (15:40)

High yield cash. Yes again. They even have direct indexing. Public has modern design, powerful tools and customer support that actually helps go to public.com market and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com market ad paid for by Public Holdings Brokerage Services by Public Investing Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors SEC Registered Advisor Crypto Services by ZeroHash all investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures@public.com disclosures a business gift

Tim Stenovec (16:14)

is never just a gift. It's a thank you, a milestone, a moment of appreciation. It's a message about how much someone matters and what your brand stands for. At 4imprint, you'll find thousands of customizable options like premium apparel, branded drinkware, tech totes and more, each chosen not just for function but for meaning. You can tailor every detail your logo, your message, your presentation so your gift feels personal and on brand and with expert support, dependable service, and thousands without a setup fee. Creating something thoughtful doesn't mean making it complicated. Every order is backed by 4imprint's 360 degree guarantee, so you can be 4imprint certain it'll arrive exactly as expected, on time and with the care your brand deserves. Because when the moment matters, the right gift speaks volumes and the right partner makes it easy. Explore gifting with purpose and certainty@fourimprint.com forimprint

IBM AI Narrator (17:09)

for certain the thing about AI for business it may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across hr, IT and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slash repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business.

Tim Stenovec (17:39)

IBM the data that matters for your investment shows that banks across the board are gaining an analysis on the companies making news on Wall Street. Nvidia Once again, top dog Tesla's really

Chris Worth (17:51)

taking a hit this morning.

Tim Stenovec (17:52)

Listen to the Stock Movers Report from

Kate Gulliver (17:54)

Bloomberg Wind and solar stocks on the move.

Tim Stenovec (17:57)

It's your short audio report on the day's winners and losers in the stock market, the biggest one day decline since 2010. Subscribe to the Stock Movers report on Apple podcasts, Spotify or wherever you listen. This is Bloomberg Businessweek Daily with Carol Massar and Tim Stenovec on Bloomberg Radio this week.

Carol Massar (18:19)

Wayfair shares fell after the home goods retailer reported adjusted earnings per share for the first quarter that missed the average analyst estimate. It issued second quarter guidance on the conference call. Expecting mid single digits, percentage growth year over year and gross margins between 29.5% and 30.5%.

Tim Stenovec (18:38)

Wafer stock down about 30% so far this year. For more, Kate Gulliver, chief financial officer at the company, stopped by to talk about the quarter and the outlook.

Kate Gulliver (18:48)

We feel great about the quarter that we printed. I think we're very focused on the fundamentals and are we doing two things? Are we expanding our share gains in a category that, as your team covered, is complex right now and challenging? And are we expanding our profitability? And we're doing both. So in that print on Q1, we showed that 7.4% net revenue growth. We think that's on a category that was down sort of low single. So a really nice share spread to the category. And then you saw really strong flow through to EBITDA. That was our highest Q1 adjusted EBITDA margin since 2021. And so I think you're really seeing the strength of the model there. So we feel great about the quarter.

Carol Massar (19:28)

Kate, I just want to say first of all, thank you for getting the memo so that we kind of match here. I'm really happy.

Kate Gulliver (19:34)

I love it. Blue is blue is the theme. Cerulean, you know, I love it.

Carol Massar (19:38)

I love it. Hey, listen, one of the things I wanted think ask you about, you've been at Wayfair for more than a decade, your interim CFO, CFO since May of 2020 second after those heady and exuberant days of the pandemic. Tough time, we know for the global economy, the US Economy, but everyone was buying so much for their homes. And then we had that reset. And I think we've all now can look back at that time and say that was the anomaly. That was the unusual time. We've seen the reset. You've seen your share of cycles though, I guess is what I want to point out to tell us about the consumers right now we've been talking about. They're in a pinch. Gas prices are higher. Other things are higher. They're holding back. Tell us about what you saw with the consumer.

Kate Gulliver (20:20)

Yeah, we do think that in our category the category is challenged and the consumer is challenged. If we look at Q1, we felt the Q1, the category was down, you know, sort of low single digits. Again, this is on a category that has been down consistently since 2021. And actually if you look at the trend line, so typically this category in a normalized period grows 3 to 4% a year. If you were to CAGR the 2019 period to now and look at that, what that trend line should have been, we're still far below that trend line. So even when adjusting for that pull forward, as you spoke to in 2020 and 2021, the category is off. And I think that speaks to a, you know, a consumer who is challenged right now and not spending as much on discretionary. I think what's important though is that for us at Wayfair, our focus is less on, you know, when is the consumer going to recover and when are we going to see those category tailwinds. We want those. Those will be fantastic. We it's a cyclical category. We know it'll come back. But our own growth is really driven by our share spread to the category and the initiatives that we have going internally around rewards. Wayfair verified our physical stores and those are growing in a really good direction and that's what's driving that, you know, mid single digits revenue guide for Q2.

Tim Stenovec (21:36)

So you're less concerned about potential weakness from the consumer in the current quarter than you are about that being offset by the tech investments that you're making.

Kate Gulliver (21:47)

Yeah. So our guide for the current quarter does not contemplate any improvement in the category dynamics. So we're quite confident hitting that mid single digits revenue, you know, absent any category recovery. We said on the call actually we thought April was down sort of low to mid single digits in the category. So the category, you know, maybe further challenge in April. Even with that, you know, we still are confident in this mid single digits number for Q2.

Carol Massar (22:12)

Hey, talk to us a bit more Kate about Perigold. That's really your luxury online marketplace. What are you seeing the dynamics and, and metrics of that marketplace in particular?

Kate Gulliver (22:23)

Yeah, I think there's been a lot of discussion around the, you know, the K shaped economy and certainly where we see that play out is with Paragould which is, as you pointed out, Carol, are a luxury brand. We also have our specialty retail brands so Joss and Main, Birch Lane, all modern and those play a bit above mass. Not quite at the luxury level, but above mass. And all of those brands are doing quite well. They're growing very nicely now those are small brands. So wayfair.com has to be growing nicely too to get, you know, that 7.4% comp. But we are seeing strength in the higher end for sure.

Tim Stenovec (22:58)

What about when it comes to the pro business?

Kate Gulliver (23:00)

Yeah, that's a great question. Appreciate you asking about that. The B2B business is actually held in quite nicely. You know, last time we gave a stat on that, I think we said it was around 2 billion. That's an important category for us. One we, we can continue to grow. That's a place where I'd say our ability to continue to improve the site has sort of nicely added to how the consumer engages in that category. So the pro consumer, for example, wants consolidated delivery, all of the products arriving together versus piecemeal. They want to be able to plan projects on the site. And these are things that we've rolled out over the last year or so to really help that shopper in that category who tends to be a designer or a contractor.

Carol Massar (23:40)

So you know, when we, you know, you're talking about the different aspects of the business, Kate, and I want to go back to. All right, so some week now, you know, in terms of what we just saw for the last quarter, but you guys seem to have confidence about momentum for the second quarter. Is that fair?

Kate Gulliver (23:56)

Yeah. I think what you're hearing from us is, you know, we know the categories under pressure. We've been, you know, as you point out, we've been operating in a challenging category for a few years now. And what we're seeing is the benefits of several different initiatives that we've launched over the last year, plus really hitting and combining together. And that is what is sort of driving this share acceleration.

Carol Massar (24:18)

And, you know, one of the things, too, Kate, I wanted to dig into. We've talked with you about this. I mean, and everybody talks about, you know, housing. It's not been great. Right. People aren't buying homes. But the last time we caught up with you, or I think we've talked about it in the past about the refresh cycle, is that where you're really seeing a lot of activity? I know we have been in a house for a long time and we are doing some references, fresh work overall. But I'm just curious, give us, give us some context and color around that.

Kate Gulliver (24:46)

Well, I hope you're shopping the sites, Carol, as you're doing the refresh. You know, it is, I will say, with the category down so much, eventually we do think we'll start to see some of that refresh. I think people stay in their home long enough, you know, to your point, and there's a desire to sort of simplify or improve. I think we've talked before about categories that have. Well, during this period are categories that are more, you know, decorative accents, seasonal decor, the types of things that you might use in a refresh. Whereas the bigger ticket items, the bigger furniture items, that category has been even more compressed, you know, within all of that, though, our focus continues to be on the share gains in each of those sort of subcategories that we play in.

Tim Stenovec (25:31)

Can you, can you talk a little bit about the, the calculus or the equation that goes into when someone returns something or wants something returned? You have this calculation that says, okay, we can give you a partial refund and you can keep the items or we'll take a full refund, but you have to pay for shipping and back because we're talking about stuff that isn't as easy as just returning to a store. Sometimes not as easy from a shipping perspective. Just curious how that equation works and sort of how that hits your. Your bottom line.

Kate Gulliver (26:03)

Yeah. So you've actually introduced a number of the pieces in the. In the way that you frame the question. You're right. We think about, you know, one, what is the customer experience here? Right. Some of these items are very difficult for that customer to return. So how do we make that easy for her? You know, we actually have opened up a number of outlet stores across the country where the customer could return the product. We have two large format Wayfair stores open, Chicago, Atlanta. The customer can bring the product into those stores, or if it's smaller, parcel, she can certainly ship that back. But would she perhaps prefer to keep the product and not return? That's always an option, but the focus is really, how do we simplify this for the customer? It's really important for the customer to have a great experience with us, even if she needs to return, because that's what keeps her coming back and shopping consistently with us over time. And I do think it's that trust in the brand and the trust that you're going to have a high quality experience. That has really been one of our strengths over the last two decades that we've operated in terms of how that impacts the P and L. Our returns rate has remained very steady over many, many, many years. And what we try to do is actually prevent returns from the start. Right. So how do we make the product detail page as rich as possible? How do we help you understand all the dimensions around that product? How do we make sure that the imagery is rich and clear? That's really a place too, where I can accelerate. We talked about that a little bit on the call. AI tools that we're using to improve merchandising, which then, you know, ultimately over time, gives the consumer more conviction in the product and less likely to have a return.

Carol Massar (27:36)

Okay, how is the retail stores doing? How are they? You guys are. It seems like you're. You're very thoughtful in terms of how you expand and build out. What can you share with us about that?

Kate Gulliver (27:46)

You know, we're thrilled with the performance of the Wayfair store. So the Atlanta store soft open a few weeks ago. That store opened, you know, nicely stronger than the Chicago store which opened two years ago. We should expect that. Right. We're obviously going to take the learnings from the Chicago store and incorporate that into new store openings. But I think it shows the ongoing opportunity for folks here to have this omnichannel experience for the consumer. And I think what we're really excited about the store is we see existing customers coming in and shopping us in categories that they may not have typically shopped us for in the past. You know, for example, storage and org kitchen accessories that they see in the store. And it's really helpful to understand the breadth of what we offer. And then we see new customers. You know, what we've said about the Chicago store is that more than 50% of the customers buying in the Chicago store actually new to the customer file. We have 100 million customer file. Right. So to get new customers at this stage is a really exciting thing and I think shows the benefit of that incremental channel.

Tim Stenovec (28:45)

That was Kate Gulliver. She's CFO over at Wayfair.

Carol Massar (28:50)

Still ahead on Bloomberg businessweek, sustainable winemaking and the four horses coming at it, sampling some wines as well.

Chris Worth (28:56)

One of our producers, so Carpento from Tuscany, they're they're known for their Chiantis. They're one of our kind of most prestigious sustainable producers that we have. And they do what's called a green harvest, where they'll cut grapes that they're not going to use, but they'll let them kind of break down on the soil to like naturally regenerate and put nutrients back in. They'll use cover crops to help with erosion and things like that. So you don't have to put the synthetic fertilizers or any of that into the, into the system.

Tim Stenovec (29:23)

All with OPC wines and spirits. Chris Worth, this is Bloomberg.

Public Investing Narrator (29:31)

Support for the show comes from Public. Lately it feels like there are two types of investing platforms. Some are traditional brokerages that haven't changed much in decades. And others feel less like investing and more like a game. Public is positioned differently. It's an investing platform for people who are serious about building their wealth on public. You can build a portfolio of stocks, options, bonds, crypto without all the bugs or the confetti. Retirement accounts.

Mandeep Singh (29:56)

Yep.

Public Investing Narrator (29:57)

High yield cash. Yes again, they even have direct indexing. Public has modern design, powerful tools and customer support that actually helps go to public.com market and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com market ad paid for by Public Holdings Brokerage Services by public investing member FINRA, SIPC advisory services by public advisors, SEC registered advisor crypto services by ZeroHash. All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures@public.com disclosures.

Tim Stenovec (30:30)

A business gift is never just a gift. It's a thank you, a milestone, a moment of appreciation. It's a message about how much someone matters and what your brand stands for. At 4imprint, you'll find thousands of customizable options like premium apparel, branded drinkware, tech totes and more, each chosen not just for function but for meaning. You can tailor every detail your logo, your message, your presentation so your gift feels personal and on brand and with expert support, dependable service and thousands without a setup fee. Creating something thoughtful doesn't mean making it complicated. Every order is backed by 4imprint's 360 degree guarantee, so you can be 4imprint certain it'll arrive exactly as expected, on time and with the care your brand deserves. Because when the moment matters, the right gift speaks volumes and the right partner makes it easy. Explore gifting with purpose and certainty@4imprint.com forimprint

IBM AI Narrator (31:25)

for certain the thing about AI for business it may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across hr, it's and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slashed repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business IBM this is

Carol Massar (31:58)

Bloomberg businessweek Daily with Carol Massar and Tim Stennebec on Bloomberg Radio.

Tim Stenovec (32:05)

Carol, you can always count on Bloomberg Pursuits for some good wine related content.

Carol Massar (32:10)

Listen, their reporting is incredible and you know they go a lot of different places, but certainly when it comes to alcoholic beverages.

Tim Stenovec (32:18)

It's been a week. Ellen McCoy writes for Bloomberg Pursuits about how white wine should be looked at when it comes to value investing. She writes that quote, sadly, most people, even those who love white wines, buy into the narrative that collecting and investing are mainly about reds because their powerful tannins allow them to last. This received wisdom is woefully outdated. She writes, top whites can easily age 10 or as many as 20 years or more, almost as long as reds. She says the acidity plays the role that tannin plays in preserving reds.

Carol Massar (32:48)

Well, our next guest is nodding as he's listening to this. We're joined by Christopher Worth. He is Director of Sustainability at Opici Wines and Spirits. He joins us here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker studio. Nice to have you here.

Chris Worth (33:00)

Thank you for having me.

Carol Massar (33:01)

Tell us about Apici Wines. What do we need to know?

Chris Worth (33:04)

So Apici Wines, family owned, the import side of the business has been around since 1913, so we do have a little bit of pedigree and some history behind us. We focus on family owned estate wines from around the world heavy on Italy just because of the family's heritage. But then we've also branched out into some of our own proprietary brands that we source from family growers, but we'll put our own label on them. So one of those, like our La Luca Prosecco that we have, that's named after Donna Peachy, who's my boss, his son Luca. So it's all in la familia as we go through it. Yeah.

Carol Massar (33:33)

As it got easier or harder, though, in terms of making wines. We've had a lot of conversations about the wine industry over the last few years. Some of it has to do with. You have younger generations not drinking so much. But we also talk about climate change and people shifting where they're growing. So tell us a little bit about tariffs, too. And tariffs.

Chris Worth (33:51)

Absolutely. No, it's. A lot of. All of those things are absolutely true, and it's kind of coming at the industry from all angles. But, I mean, in terms of climate change, growers are having to adapt and build resilience into their plans.

Carol Massar (34:02)

What do they do?

Chris Worth (34:03)

So it's a. It's a combination, because it's not like it's just getting hotter. Like, that's kind of the. One of the misnomers is that it's. Every year will get hotter and hotter. While there may be extremes are also dealing with a lot more frost and cold. So there's. There's a lot that they have to do. The biggest thing is they don't want to contribute to make it worse. So they're cutting down on their own emissions. You know, they're starting to not use any synthetic pesticides or synthetic fertilizers, starting to move to, like, cover crops, to, like, naturally regenerate the soil and just be more responsible stewards. And it's not just in the vineyard. Like, being certified organic or something is good, but it also comes down to your packaging, to your glass, to your shippers, to how you're messaging that to customers and to the younger generation that's looking for more stories on what to drink.

Tim Stenovec (34:44)

The stories element and the messaging element is part of it. But all those things that you mentioned, it's got to affect taste, too.

Chris Worth (34:51)

Absolutely. I mean, I think there's. There's nowadays, like, consistency.

Kate Gulliver (34:56)

Yeah.

Chris Worth (34:56)

And when I got into the industry, if you had the organic wines that were marketed, they didn't last as long. They were a little bit of a lower quality. But a lot of it is we didn't have, like. Like the verbiage to even classify these things or how to Talk about them. Yeah, so. And while organics, that is like one of the best levels you can be at, sustainability is more of like an overall holistic style to do it. So you can maintain that flavor and maintain your business without sacrificing, like the flavor in the sale and the sales and things like that.

Carol Massar (35:24)

The other thing that we've talked about is regenerative farming like that has also made its certainly presence, if you will, when it comes to wine. We've talked about that a lot around this table.

Chris Worth (35:35)

Yeah. I mean, one of our producers, so Carpento from Tuscany, they're, they're known for their Chiantis. We have their Chianti Classico reserve that will be in a minute. But they're one of our kind of most prestigious sustainable producers that we have. And they do what's called a green harvest, where they'll cut grapes that they're not going to use, but they'll let them kind of break down on the soil to like naturally regenerate and put nutrients back in. They'll use cover crops to help with erosion and things like that. So you don't have to put the synthetic fertilizers or any of that into the, into the system. So, yeah.

Tim Stenovec (36:06)

What, what are we drinking?

Chris Worth (36:09)

Oh, yeah, let's do it. No, so no, let's start. Let's go. So we're going to start with, with that La Luca Prosecco that I was talking about. So we'll start there. This is one of our most well known national brands. This is from the Treviso area up north in Italy.

Carol Massar (36:26)

Oh, okay.

Tim Stenovec (36:30)

That was for our radio audience. It's for the radio edit up, but okay. Sorry, you were talking about the Treviso.

Chris Worth (36:36)

Yeah. So like, you have your area of Prosecco and then in that area the grapes are called Glera. They used to be called Prosecco but they changed them so they don't get confused with the actual town where they're from. So, yeah. So Prosecco is the area inside. Prosecco is the appellation of Treviso. That's the Doc Treviso you'll see on there.

Carol Massar (36:50)

Right?

Chris Worth (36:51)

And then, yeah, this is done in like an extra dry style. So it's fruity, but it's still really fresh.

Tim Stenovec (36:56)

Am I drinking the right one? I don't know if I'm drinking the right one.

Chris Worth (36:58)

You got some bubbles.

Tim Stenovec (36:59)

Is it bubbles or.

Chris Worth (37:00)

It should have bubbles. This one's got bubbles.

Carol Massar (37:01)

I think this is where you want to.

Tim Stenovec (37:02)

You know what's shocking to me about this is it's 18 bucks and you'll

Chris Worth (37:05)

find it in a range of like, like 16 to $18. And that's the, the beauty of us owning this brand and importing it. So there's like one less set of hands touching it. So it's, it's a real value driven and we have a great relationship with the, the co op of farmers that produce this for us. And that's kind of the highlight of their sustainability efforts is a co op.

Tim Stenovec (37:24)

It's. Is that not typical or is that typical in this part of the world?

Chris Worth (37:27)

So for, for like El Coto and Carpento, those are going to be all estate fruit, so the winery actually owns them. But for La Luca, since then we buy it from this large co op and it's about, I can't recall the exact number, but a large number of farmers that all operate under the same sustainable guidelines that the winery, the parent winery dictates. And on the back of the bottle you'll see that 3e it's probably toss on it.

Carol Massar (37:51)

What does that mean?

Chris Worth (37:52)

So that's environment, environmental, ethical and economical. So those are the three values of their sustainability program and that's guided by the Italian ministry and then certified that they are actually following those procedures by an independent agency called Velour Italia.

Carol Massar (38:07)

How much does sustainable sustainability matter? We've been talking about that this week and there's been a real pushback against diversity, equity, inclusion, those things, but also sustainability initiatives, at least, you know, publicly.

Chris Worth (38:20)

But.

Carol Massar (38:21)

But you guys are still doing it. It's important, right?

Chris Worth (38:23)

It's gotten some. One of the biggest things is like it needed, it needs some teeth. Because I think a lot of it comes off as like greenwashing or it's just kind of like surface stuff. So one of the things that we did, we need. When I first came on with this position, I was like, I need to know what they're doing, how they're doing it, who's certifying it, who's actually guaranteeing that they're doing it. So that's why you have not only their certification on the back label, but you also see the certifying body on the back label, which, which is cool. It is important.

Carol Massar (38:50)

Bigger deal in Europe.

Chris Worth (38:51)

I think it is a big deal in Europe and they get a lot more support from the government in Europe. But a lot of it was done more just towards the social, like the charity, the philanthropy, and then like in the vineyard. But it's gotta be a little bit bigger than that. And when you kind of put all these things together Then it starts to make sense to the consumer and to people that it's not. You don't have to really sacrifice much to get this. It actually just makes sense, and it's the way that we've done. Been doing it for very long, for a long time.

Tim Stenovec (39:18)

We're speaking with Christopher Worth, director of sustainability at Opichi Wines and Spirits. He joins us along with quite a few bottles of wine here in the Bloomberg Interactive.

Carol Massar (39:27)

Let's go to El Kota.

Tim Stenovec (39:28)

You want to go to Spain?

Carol Massar (39:29)

Yeah.

Chris Worth (39:29)

You want to go to Rioja?

Carol Massar (39:30)

Yeah. Pack your bags.

Tim Stenovec (39:33)

Let's go.

Chris Worth (39:33)

So a little. A little European tour here. So. All right, so we'll go to El Cotto. This is their. This is one of my favorite wines in our portfolio. This is like my official summer wine. If you come to my house, you have a glass of this in your hand immediately.

Carol Massar (39:44)

Well, just invite us.

Chris Worth (39:44)

Yes. Sorry. Come up to the Finger Lakes. Love the Finger Lakes as well. Okay, so this is their El Coto Blanco. This will be a blend of mostly viora with a little, which is an indigenous grape to Spain, some Sauvignon blanc and a dash of verdejo. All stainless steel. All. All dry farm. So no irrigation on this one or anything.

Carol Massar (40:04)

What do you mean, stainless steel?

Chris Worth (40:05)

So when you. When you ferment. When you ferment a wine. Yeah, you can ferment it in stainless steel and then put it in oak for aging. Sometimes, especially with whites, they'll barrel ferment them. So you have a little bit oak, your little vanilla feel. This is all stainless steel. To maintain that acidity, keep it really fresh. You'll get notes of, like, citrus and maybe some pineapple and a little bit of acidity and minerality in the aftertaste.

Tim Stenovec (40:26)

I got bubbles because I drank the wrong one.

Chris Worth (40:28)

You went backwards.

Tim Stenovec (40:29)

Yeah, it's all right.

Carol Massar (40:30)

Oh, it's really soft. I could see, like, in the summer when it's hot, it's really lovely.

Chris Worth (40:35)

Seafood, softer cheeses, pastas, things like that, cold salads. It's really good. And, you know, in this area, one of the Spanish sustainability efforts that they focus on is water and water management and not wasting water. So on the back of this one, you'll see wineries for climate protection. That's the Spanish certification. So you saw the 3e on the Italian one. Wineries for climate protection is what Spain does. So that's a joint public, private venture between the Spanish government and the Federation of Spanish Winemakers. It's called the fev. And they put this together once again. It's it's economic, it's social, it's governance, it's all of that. But they do focus on reducing energy consumption. Yeah, and, and water management. Because Rioja can be a very dry place and you do often, you know, you can get some rain, some storms, but you also can get a lot of drought.

Carol Massar (41:26)

You know, water is that thing. I was just having a conversation earlier with our Michael McKee of Bloomberg and just whether it's the United States, but around the world, like, you know, we just take it for granted. But it is becoming more and more difficult and we've have increasingly a lot of dry areas because of climate change and other things.

Chris Worth (41:44)

Yeah, I mean, like, you know, the Colorado river, there's so many issues around that, you know, even in terms of like access to that water source and indigenous rights. And there's some treaties that have been, you know, broken with, with some the first peoples. But then up here we get a lot of rain. We're getting like floods and washouts and a lot of erosion and, and a lot of those synthetic streams. So synthetic fertilizers they use when it's, when it storms, those will just wash right into the water supply and that can cause algae blooms and cause invasive species and makes the water unsafe for drinking.

Tim Stenovec (42:13)

So.

Chris Worth (42:13)

Yeah, or use.

Carol Massar (42:15)

All right, you saved the best for last because I am a gal who kind of likes her red wine. So tell me what we got.

Chris Worth (42:19)

So back to Italy on this one. This is from Carpento. This is still family owned. The Saccho family and the Saket family founded this in 1967. It's all estate fruit on this one. This will be their 2020 County Classico Reserva. So you will be 100% estate grown Sangiovese. Really beautiful wine, really elegant style to it. You take a smell and you know it's Italian. It's got that rough earth, but when you drink it, it's got some floral notes, it's very soft and it's just a very, very pleasant wine. Some of these you have to have food with them. I think this one on its own, you know, kind of what we're doing right now.

Carol Massar (42:55)

Very nice. I'm a. Well, my team knows and forgive me if I take this down to a really base level, but every Friday it's pizza night. But I love a good red and this is like, this would be really good.

Tim Stenovec (43:04)

Well, now you have your wine for tonight. Yeah, you know, we were talking a lot, we were talking about all European wines, but you mentioned you're in the Finger Lakes Yeah. And, and you said if we went up there we could go look at some vineyards and see vineyards. Can you talk a little bit about that region? And it's growing, growing sort of prominence, wine industry.

Chris Worth (43:21)

Yeah. So, I mean, there's been grapes grown there for forever. I mean, you have like the traditional, the European varietals, they're called Vitis vinifera. So like Chardonnay, Cabernet Sauvignon, things like that. Finger Lakes were more known for their Vitis Labrusca. So like Concord, Niagara, a lot of hybrids, colder, hardier grapes. But a lot of those grapes from Europe were transplanted over. And you have Riesling Cabernet Franc, things like that. It's a really good area. It is a cool climate, though. So, you know, it has a little bit of a problem with frost. Not so. And the winters are harder more than the summers, you know, you know, it's, it's going to be interesting as the planet's warming and things get different. Will the Finger Lakes turn into like a moderate, like a little more of like a warmer climate? So everyone's adjusting to this.

Tim Stenovec (44:02)

That was Chris Worth. He's director of sustainability at OPC Wines.

Chris Worth (44:05)

And.

Carol Massar (44:06)

And that wraps up the weekend edition of Bloomberg businessweek from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so much for joining us.

Tim Stenovec (44:11)

Be sure to tune in to Bloomberg Business Week daily Monday through Friday starting at 2pm Wall street time on Bloomberg Radio, Bloomberg TV and Sirius XM channel 121.

Carol Massar (44:19)

You can also watch our daily broadcast on YouTube. Just search Bloomberg Podcasts where simulcast on Bloomberg originals. Available on bloomberg.com originals and streaming platforms including Roku, Amazon Fire TV, Samsung TV and more.

Tim Stenovec (44:33)

Find our Bloomberg Businessweek podcast at bloomberg.com, apple or wherever you get your podcasts and the latest edition of the magazine. It's available on newsstands now@bloomberg.com and always on the Bloomberg Terminal. I'm Tim Stanweck.

Carol Massar (44:45)

And I'm Carol Massar. Have a good and safe weekend, everyone. Do stay with us. Today's top stories and global business headlines are coming up right now.

Tim Stenovec (44:55)

For many men, mental health challenges aren't recognized until they've already taken a toll. Work pressure, financial stress, changing relationships and traditional expectations around masculinity can quietly wear men down, often without clear warning signs. In season three of the Visibility Gap, Dr. Guy Winch and his guests explore how these pressures show up, how to spot them earlier, and how men can access meaningful support. Listen to the new season of the Visibility Gap, a podcast presented by Cigna Healthcare.

Chris Worth (45:27)

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Tim Stenovec (45:28)

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Chris Worth (45:30)

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Public Investing Narrator (45:31)

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Chris Worth (45:42)

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