Ali Anderson (1:45)

Hi everyone.

Carol Massar (1:46)

Happy Thanksgiving and welcome to the Bloomberg businessweek Week Weekend Podcast. We are normally so focused on bringing you everything from Wall street and politics and anything from the world of business that we're always grateful when we can take a step back and focus on other important issues, especially on this Thanksgiving weekend.

Tim Stanweck (2:03)

In this hour we bring you to Boston and to the work that's being done at the Boston Children's Hospital. It's really a healthcare hub for all of New England. It's at the forefront of medical research and treatment and that includes cutting edge tech for orthopedic surgery and also using AI in medicine.

Carol Massar (2:20)

That's all coming up in the first hour. It's some really great conversations. Tim and I were both blown away by our visit there. Then coming up in our second hour, well, well, it's a little bit of A holiday special. We've got some travel hosting and drinks. We also get an update on the domestic travel market with the CEO of.

Tim Stanweck (2:37)

Travel and Leisure, plus a CEO who you can count on to be candid when she stops by. Christina Stembel, the founder and CEO of Farm Girl Flowers. She joined us on getting ready for the holiday season and the health of the consumer.

Carol Massar (2:49)

Also, we have a drink with the CEO of the spirits company KraftCo at a time when the industry is facing a lot of headwinds. That's coming up.

Tim Stanweck (2:56)

A drink or two. I saw the way you poured that.

Carol Massar (3:00)

All right, all of that's coming. Coming up in the second hour.

Tim Stanweck (3:02)

Tim, all that to come. First, though, we head to Boston Children's Hospital. It's the leading recipient of pediatric research funding from the National Institutes of Health. It's also the primary pediatric teaching hospital for Harvard Medical School.

Carol Massar (3:13)

We're so grateful to them for hosting us. And first up, we've got a conversation around medical advancements using artificial intelligence and the importance of providing a comforting environment for patients and staff alike.

Tim Stanweck (3:25)

That's what Dr. Joan La Rovere is trying to achieve. She's senior vice president. She's also interim chief medical officer of Boston Children's. She's also the co founder and president of the NGO the Virtue Foundation. It's delivering healthcare to over 25 countries. We began our conversation with a description of the room where we broadcasted from earlier this month.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (3:44)

We're in the Hale Roof garden on the 10th floor of the Hale Building. The cardiac ICU that I work in is two and three floors below us because we cover two floors, our cardiac ICU. And we need spaces like this for families to be able to step away and really, you know, think and decompress and for staff. You know, these are very challenging, complex patients that were taken care of in this building. Our neonatal intensive care unit is here. Our cardiac ICU is here. We have operating rooms in this building. You know, there's a lot of the cath labs are here. So it's wonderful that we can have these magical spaces where you can just feel that you're in a pediatric hospital and there's a place to relax and think.

Carol Massar (4:34)

Can I just say, it's like you're sitting on a tree, like a tree bench. There's like, I don't know, is this a rainbow? It feels like above us. It's pretty cool.

Tim Stanweck (4:43)

You know, Carol mentioned the energy that we feel when we walk into a space such as Boston Children's, and we're reminded that it's not just a. A teaching hospital, a research hospital. It's also a place that treats kids from really all over the world. I'm wondering how you prioritize where resources go, whether it goes to treating patients right now versus thinking about research, thinking about development, thinking about ways to actually help patients in the future versus working with them right now. How do you allocate those resources?

Dr. Joan LaRovere (5:17)

Well, that has always been part of the DNA of Boston Children's Hospital. It's been our mission. We deliver the highest, best quality clinical care. Really, that is the foundation of it all. And you see that. You know the motto of where the world comes for answers. There's a lot of complex patients from the Boston area, Massachusetts, New England. Obviously, we provide primary services for all levels of care for children in this community. However, there are many from across the United States and across the world who really seek that type of care and come to us, usually the most complex cases. And I think that's really where we thrive. And the other piece of our DNA is the science. We, as you talked in the beginning.

Carol Massar (6:08)

That makes a difference, right? When there's science involved, I feel like it's. It's practition. Yes, you're dealing with patients, but it's people who are like, I want to understand how this works.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (6:17)

That's everybody here.

Carol Massar (6:18)

Yeah.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (6:19)

That's the doctors, that's the nurses, that's the social workers, that's the physical therapists, that's the respiratory therapists, it's the pharmacists. I just could keep going. So I think that's what draws people to work here and to stay here, because that purpose, that we're going to actually change things and we're going to be able to find newer ways of doing things. We're going to help more children survive but also thrive. And that takes a real concerted effort. And you need the science here with clinical.

Carol Massar (6:51)

One of the things, I think when you joined Tim and I back in New York, and listen, everybody's talking about AI, and I know that, but I think we all are thinking about what it could do for medicine and R and D and innovation. And I guess what we're trying to understand, too, is what's the reality of what AI is used within the medical community, or R and D specifically, like, where is it today? And you, as someone who understands this space so well, and I'm curious, the conversations you guys have, where do you think it could go?

Dr. Joan LaRovere (7:22)

Well, AI has been a very important part of Boston Children's Hospital for a long time. This Isn't something new. We have incredible research groups and an incredible innovation team here who been really standing up AI initiatives for a very long time. We talked about some of the work I personally have done in terms of, you know, Virtue foundation and the Global Health AI mapping and being able to match resources.

Carol Massar (7:48)

Need you work with firms that are like specifically in AI?

Dr. Joan LaRovere (7:53)

Yes, with databricks and data robot cards. We're building those, those real platforms that people can use. But I think about, for example, when ChatGPT first came out, we had Boston GPT immediately. We were looking to get that behind our firewalls. How can we integrate that, how can we use that for real purpose and improving both the care that we get to patients. But how can we use AI to also discover new things? I think the levels of data that we have and I think you touched upon in the beginning in terms of rare diseases, genetic diseases, we are the epicenter of that and we've already been extremely successful in bringing new therapies to market for children. But when I look at the infrastructure that we're building and I think you've had Dr. Wendy Chung come and speak and she's heading up a lot of that work. I think her best days are ahead of us and AI is unlocking that type of potential.

Tim Stanweck (8:50)

I like hearing that, the optimism about our best days being ahead of us. And I think about just even during your career, how much treatments have changed in a pretty short time. I'm curious about the connection between kids and adults and treating children. And of course if kids are healthy, then they turn into healthy adults. But this is a children's hospital that does a lot of research, it does a lot of teaching. Also, are there learnings that can be taken from what works with kids and even applied to a larger population as not just those kids grow up, but as adults also need treatment?

Dr. Joan LaRovere (9:25)

I think there's two points that strike me there. One is the decisions that we are making early in life have long term impact. It's something I've thought about my entire career in the cardiac space and in cardiac intensive care. The decisions to have surgery on day two or day four, the decisions to use this drug or that drug, all of those things are shaping your long term self. But it was very hard to be able to look at and analyze that type of data until you've opened up big data AI. So I think again along the lines of our best days are ahead of us, that we're going to be able to see so much more through that. And then you said the Innovations. Now, many patients that I took care of are adults. Right. We have this huge growing adult population that we provide care for. Science is that's discovered here. It's in a pediatric hospital, but it's bringing forth therapies that are actually treating adults. So I think it's incredible to see how this innovation engine drives so much.

Carol Massar (10:29)

If you could change one thing. Just got about 30 seconds. If you could change one thing in terms of the work that you guys are doing and the R and D, that would maybe make it easier. What would it be?

Dr. Joan LaRovere (10:39)

Make it easier.

Carol Massar (10:41)

Okay, backward. If you could change one thing, though, that would help you guys in what you're working on. It sounds like you don't need. It sounds like you've got a great team.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (10:50)

We have a great team, but we're always needing, you know, support and engagement and we're just trying to drive the next. The next level and partnerships to move in that direction. We are the leading children's hospital, so we're doing well, but we're always trying to push the envelope of what we can do.

Carol Massar (11:12)

Yeah, it's fascinating.

Dr. Lyssa Baird (11:13)

You could feel it.

Carol Massar (11:14)

I felt, you know, like walking in.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (11:15)

You can, right? The purpose.

Carol Massar (11:17)

It was busy. It was lots of families, lots of kids, and, yeah, everybody on a mission.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (11:22)

It's a privilege to be part of that mission.

Carol Massar (11:24)

Well, thank you so much.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (11:26)

Thank you.

Carol Massar (11:26)

Thank you for inviting us and good to get some more time with you. Dr. Joan LaRvere. She is interim Chief Medical Officer at Boston Children's Hospital, Director of Innovation and Outcomes. So delighted to talk with you. Bloomberg Business Week is brought to you by Evolving Money, a podcast that explores how cryptocurrency is the next logical evolution of the financial system. The program investigates how traditional finance firms are integrating crypto into their operations now that Washington has begun to pass much needed regulations. Follow the podcast, which is sponsored by Coinbase. Wherever you get your audio programs.

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Dr. Ellen Grant (12:33)

It'S gotta be Tide.

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Tim Stanweck (13:28)

Crypto trading provided by ZeroHash. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures you're listening to the Bloomberg Businessweek Daily podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.

Carol Massar (13:48)

Now we know AI has been the talk of here. Actually it's been the talk of Is it almost three years already?

Tim Stanweck (13:53)

Yeah, I mean it's really nuts.

Carol Massar (13:54)

It's nonstop. A lot of AI when it comes to moving markets, analyzing data and automating simple tasks. But it may also impact neurosurgery in kids.

Tim Stanweck (14:04)

On that we were joined by Dr. Lyssa Baird, Director of Neurosurgical Oncology and co director of the Brain Tumor center at Boston Children's Hospital.

Dr. Lyssa Baird (14:13)

I take care of kids that have brain tumors and it's all ages. All ages? Yeah, from infants to really young adults, but all through childhood. And work with a phenomenal team here requires a huge team to take care of these kids. They're very complex diseases and we work on all aspects of them. So active treatment, we do a lot of scientific research, we run clinical trials. We really support these kids not only through their therapeutic journey, but through survivorship and surveillance afterwards. So it's a long journey for them and we really try to support them at every stage.

Tim Stanweck (14:52)

How are clinical trials involving children different than clinical trials involving other age populations?

Dr. Lyssa Baird (14:59)

Well, cancer in children is very, very different. The diseases are different. The implications are different, especially with brain tumors.

Carol Massar (15:08)

Why is that? Is it development because of where the brain is or what partially?

Dr. Lyssa Baird (15:11)

I mean, we're dealing with pat that have developing brains. I mean there are very different implications for that. But also the diagnoses vary quite a bit. You know, the common diseases we see in childhood, brain cancer, are very, very different Than that in adult cancer. And they require different treatments, and the support network needs to be different. We have to support these kids through developmental stages, through hormonal development, through cognitive development, through emotional development. You know, the family needs are different, and, you know, the diseases require very specific therapies. One thing historically that has happened is because pediatric cancer has not been as well supported. Historically, we have had to extrapolate data and treatments from the adult world, and it just doesn't work.

Carol Massar (16:01)

You know, I have a good friend and the same thing. Her son went through it and unfortunately didn't work out well. But when she started doing research, she realized there's just no money, no funding. And they actually started a foundation to kind of. But selling kids, selling cookies and like, just to try and drum up money and interest and attention. And we talk about it with women that R and D. Like, you just.

Dr. Ellen Grant (16:26)

Don'T see it as much.

Carol Massar (16:27)

And it's getting slowly better. But with kids, why. Why is it that it's lagged in terms of time and money and effort? Not here, obviously, but elsewhere.

Dr. Lyssa Baird (16:38)

Yeah, I mean, we definitely rely on philanthropy hugely to make advancements in the field, But I think, you know, historically, the numbers are lower. The financial support from government has been different. It follows volume, as does industry. You know, there's a complex, you know, complex reasons for that. But, yeah, there needs to be a shift in focus and more attention on specific pediatric treatments.

Tim Stanweck (17:08)

We are talking a lot about treatments, and it makes me wonder about if we understand what causes this stuff in the first place. And certainly treatments in recent years have gotten so much better, and gene therapy has gotten better. But I'm wondering if we have an understanding in the medical community about why some kids get sick and why some don't.

Dr. Lyssa Baird (17:31)

Yeah, there have been huge advancements in pediatric brain tumors. It's really one of the most exciting fields right now because of how many things have really moved forward in the field. And so we know so much more about the biology of these tumors and the genetic underpinnings to them and can really drill down with each individual tumor to find out what the molecular change has been in the cells that is driving tumor growth. And that's really helped us understand them and opened up a whole new field of individual treatments. And so every tumor is different. In some tumors, we've discovered that there may be a cell of origin, that the child is born with a lot of tumors. We don't understand why some kids are getting them and some don't. Some may have familial implications and Some may have environmental. We don't understand everything, but we're learning more and more every day and we know so much more about the individual genetics of the tumor.

Tim Stanweck (18:24)

Could we get to a point within our lifetimes where there is some sort of screening for kids when they're born or in their early days that helps identify what they could be susceptible to and then we could allow for different, I don't know, different treatments ahead of that to prevent it actually from happening?

Dr. Lyssa Baird (18:41)

Definitely, I think so. And it may not be for every tumor, but I think we're already getting close to that for certain diagnoses where we know specific things that we can potentially screen for and we're finding certain germline mutations that are familial hereditary. So yeah, I think we may get to that point where screening is better for all tumors, but we're very close for certain types of tumors.

Carol Massar (19:07)

Is there differences in boys and girls when it comes to either tumors or.

Dr. Lyssa Baird (19:12)

What impacts for some, for some diagnoses and some have greater percentages with boys and some with girls, it really just depends on the diagnosis and many, many it's equivalent.

Carol Massar (19:21)

I am also curious about, like you guys seem to certainly take a family approach and you have to, when it's kids, like what's involved when you've got specific therapies and it's not, it's leading up to the surgery or whatever the treatment is.

Dr. Lyssa Baird (19:34)

No, the treatment of these kids takes a village. We have a huge multidisciplinary team. We have neurosurgeons, neuro, oncologists, neurologists, the neuropathologists, geneticists, neuroradiologists. And we also have the rehabilitation experts with physical occupational therapy, the neuropsychologists and endocrinologists. I mean, there are so many different expertise fields that are required to take care of these kids because brain tumors really affect every single aspect of their life and have the potential to affect every aspect of their physical and neurodevelopment. And so we are really fortunate here to have so much expertise that we're able to really individualize the team needed for each specific child.

Carol Massar (20:17)

Thank you so much. This is heavy stuff. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Dr. Alyssa Baird, Director of neurosurgical Oncology and co director of the Brain Tumor center at Boston Children's Hospital. This is Bloomberg.

Tim Stanweck (20:29)

This is the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play. Bloomberg 11:30.

Carol Massar (20:47)

Neurological development and research is so key, especially in children, because healthy brain development can influence outcomes for the rest of our lives.

Tim Stanweck (20:55)

Dr. Ellen Grant is director of Fetal neonatal neuroimaging and Developmental Science at Boston Children's Hospital. There she leads a 70 person neuroimaging and computational science center that's working to develop tools to better detect and understand brain physiology and development. The goal? Improve cognitive, behavioral and neurological outcomes in fetuses, infants and toddlers. Brain imaging in children. If we have a better understanding of the brain and fetal development and for babies and toddlers, what will that allow us to understand? What does it prevent? What does it treat?

Dr. Ellen Grant (21:26)

Well, everything begins in utero, pretty much. So your life is an arc from infancy or when you conceived through to adulthood. So the more we can understand the early development, the more we can start to understand how we make sure children are on the right trajectory. So the goal is to characterize the brain development very early on, so we tell at the very earliest point when to start to deviate from a normal trajectory so we can get things back on track early as possible. And ideally, we want in future to be able to prevent diseases from happening, not just try to, you know, deal with them and try to correct them later on when the damage is partly done.

Carol Massar (21:58)

So how early can we do it today and detect that there's something wrong? How early, realistically, do you think we can get it to?

Dr. Ellen Grant (22:04)

Yeah, we start looking at fetuses at about 3, 11, 15 weeks, something around there. At the earliest, closer to around 18 weeks, we start to characterize brain development, you know, 18, 19 weeks or so. So it begins quite early when we start to see and look at early brain development.

Tim Stanweck (22:20)

Well, you and your team did a study a few years ago that gave you results to argue for earlier MRI during pregnancy.

Dr. Martha Murray (22:27)

Yeah.

Tim Stanweck (22:28)

Is that study enough to actually change the standard of care?

Dr. Ellen Grant (22:31)

Well, we do use it early here at Boston Children's. So when there's an indication, we do it as early as we can to better characterize the entire fetus. Because it's not just brain, it's the body it's attached to, too. So we want to understand not just the brain development, but how that brain is developing, the context of the other organ systems. So we can do that because it.

Carol Massar (22:49)

Doesn'T necessarily run hand in hand. Like, it can be very different. Right. In terms of what's going on with brain development versus the rest of the system, they can disconnect or know they're intimately connected.

Dr. Ellen Grant (23:00)

Throughout life.

Carol Massar (23:00)

So there's one.

Dr. Ellen Grant (23:01)

Yeah, so that's why we want to understand. So say, for example, we deal with a lot of congenital heart disease here that has effects from brain development. We deal with congenital diaphragmatic hernias that have effects on brain development. So everything that's happening in the fetus, whether it is brain or not, has the potential to have subtle effects on brain development.

Carol Massar (23:20)

Why do kids, I mean, kids do need specialized tools for brain imaging. Talk to us about that.

Dr. Martha Murray (23:25)

Why?

Dr. Ellen Grant (23:26)

That's the whole reason that I came to Boston. Children's is industry's not interested in fetuses, infants and young children. So it's really hard to get devices that are built specifically for these age range. So that's why I brought a team of technical people. So they're engineers, physicists, computer scientists, data scientists that help to either develop the devices or come up with better ways to analyze the data that we get with an eye on trying to understand pediatric disorders. So for example, we want to monitor and we're developing optical devices for the NICU to monitor cerebral blood flow. But the heart rate of a neonate is 150. So we have to sample at a much higher rate than you would in an adult to get the same information. So we have to build specifically devices to the physiology. And then if you think of a head of a premature baby, it's very small. So I can't take a probe that we use in adults and just put it on a preterm. So we have to develop the devices to fit the size of the infants.

Carol Massar (24:25)

I want to just go and I feel like we touched on this earlier. I mean, we are Bloomberg Business Week. We are Bloomberg and very entrenched in financial markets. And I feel like the more I've been doing this, money just follows everything. Money is why people do things or don't do things. Is that really it? Is it just the market? I hate to even make it that way, the market size. And so you don't have medical equipment companies building the things because they just don't think the market size is big enough.

Dr. Ellen Grant (24:50)

That is a big problem. And I think that's where we're trying to get into more of a business perspective. Like if we do a small startup that starts to answer those questions, then a bigger company might buy it. But if we stay in the research realm, then it's sometimes really hard to go that last mile and get something into clinical practice.

Carol Massar (25:07)

So how do you do that? How do you cross that? So what do you do?

Dr. Ellen Grant (25:10)

Yeah, this is what we're strategizing on right now is trying to figure out how we do those small startups get. Get industry interested. And a lot of things we're doing, like right now, actually one of the projects we're working on is, you know, AI strategies. Right. And if we can get enough data on infants or fetuses and so on, we can start to build models that predict not just group outcomes, but we want to get to individual outcomes because that's what parents care about. Right. So if we can figure out, get those models together. So that's what we're working on now is trying to create these AI models that are specialized for pediatrics and hoping to do startups around that particular concept.

Carol Massar (25:46)

I have to ask one more, are venture capitalists interested?

Dr. Ellen Grant (25:49)

I don't know because we haven't really talked any that I've heard about. But I think they always want something that's almost ready. So we're hoping to go further along. Yeah, a little bit further along.

Carol Massar (25:58)

Okay, interesting.

Tim Stanweck (25:59)

Can what we learn and what you understand through imaging about the brain's development be applied to how adult brains are treated?

Dr. Ellen Grant (26:08)

Everything in adult life has its genesis in infants, Right? So we learn a lot.

Tim Stanweck (26:12)

We were all there once.

Dr. Ellen Grant (26:13)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And some of the ways the adult brain responds is more prominent in a pediatric brain. So in some disorders, they go to pediatric models to see a physiology that's more prominent in neonates or infants, but also occurs in adults.

Tim Stanweck (26:28)

You know, there was, in doing the research, in the prep for our interview with you, there is a picture of a physician or a therapist doing some, what I think is called therapeutic hypothermia to brand new baby's head.

Dr. Martha Murray (26:47)

Yeah.

Tim Stanweck (26:47)

And my understanding is that oxygen deprivation around birth is one of the leading reasons that you actually see babies come into the nicu.

Dr. Ellen Grant (26:56)

Yes, that was one of the main reasons. Yes.

Tim Stanweck (26:58)

And the therapy for this is as.

Dr. Ellen Grant (27:01)

Simple as, yeah, you cool them down or, yeah, at least keep them normal thermic. Because when they have injuries in response to sort of the whole physiological response to an injury is to have a fever, and that is detrimental. So we want to keep them cool so that they don't set off these cascades of brain injury. And that's partly why we built this one device, because we want to be able to monitor through the NICU stay and optimize management. But it's interesting, we don't even know what the right blood pressure for a newborn is. So this is why we wanted to have a probe that could measure cerebral blood flow to the brain because there is no way to monitor whether there's enough brain or oxygen getting to the brain with the tools that we have right now.

Carol Massar (27:41)

I feel like we never even talk about blood pressure when it comes to, like infants. Right? Yeah, we just don't. But you need to know you did your residency and fellowship in the 1990s. Curious how imaging has changed since then. And then where do you think? How will it improve in the next, I don't know, 10 years?

Dr. Martha Murray (27:56)

I don't know.

Dr. Ellen Grant (27:56)

What's a smart benchmark? Yeah, yeah. When I was in training now, I was just starting and it was very slow. So where we've come now is the acceleration. Acquisition is just incredible. What used to take us an hour to do, we can do in 10 minutes now. So the speed, the speed of acquisition is huge. We also developing a lot of analysis that we can do after the images are acquired to give us more quantitative metrics because the whole thing in medicine to get past the qualitative read of a radiologist, which is helpful, but we want to put more numbers on it so we can have a more dynamic range on how we describe each child. And therefore we can get into better precision medicine and outcome prediction. So we're getting more to that quantitative aspect of imaging now. And not just brain, but all body parts, of course. And, you know, down to fetal age.

Carol Massar (28:46)

Is it for kids too? Every case is very personal and individual or are there trends and things that you can help so that one case can help another? Like, is there a body of knowledge that gets built off of this?

Dr. Ellen Grant (28:58)

Yes, there's body of knowledge gets built off of this. But this is where we come back to AI. I only can remember so much. You know, even though I've been in practice for a long time, things fall out.

Carol Massar (29:07)

Try the craft.

Dr. Ellen Grant (29:10)

So this is where I'm really excited about AI because I can, you know, mine our databases to find where's an individual child just like that one, I'm treated now, what did they respond to, what worked for them? And how are these two similar? So I combine the databases to start to come up with individual outcome prediction, which is what we're doing right now with databases we've got from some of the major trials for hypothermia. And so we can use this large database to try to take individual outcomes. You can say, well, I have a newborn with this ph that had these, you know, and I'm a mother of this age and put in features and they could give you from that database and outcome prediction. So working on that and also working on making data more available to parents because I think a lot of parents are very frustrated with trying to read the literature. Even if you're using ChatGPT or opens, it's really hard. And then you get group statistics and then where does my kid fit in between the 25 to 75% good outcome or something like that to get chatbots that can work with some of our databases. People anybody can talk to, you know, a physician, so to speak, to give the answers that they want.

Tim Stanweck (30:17)

That's, that's pretty remarkable because, you know, I just think about the, the tone of these chatbots and if there's a way that they can be. You know, we talked about, we talked earlier this week about what a challenge it can be for people to actually interact with them in a quote unquote normal way. But is there a way for, for them to actually be empathetic and work with patients, work with parents, work with families?

Dr. Martha Murray (30:46)

Give us.

Carol Massar (30:47)

We've got about 40 seconds.

Dr. Ellen Grant (30:48)

Yeah, yeah, no, we're working on that. But I can't tell you all the secrets because we're gonna start.

Carol Massar (30:52)

Wait, no, you go longer than that. Can I ask you something? Would you guys do use AI in chatbots? Do you have hallucinations? Like do the AI hallucinations? Do you or how do you. Especially when you're dealing with medical.

Dr. Ellen Grant (31:04)

Yeah, prevention. There's a lot of safeguards we put around that. So it's, it's, we have again, this is sort of more the secret sauce that I can't talk about yet. But there are ways to constrain chatbots to give you reasonable answers that are statistically sound.

Carol Massar (31:20)

All right, so when you can, will you come back?

Dr. Ellen Grant (31:22)

Yes, I will.

Carol Massar (31:22)

Okay, good stuff. So appreciate it. Dr. Ellen Grant, director of Fetal neonatal neuroimaging and developmental sciences here at Boston Children's Hospital. Thank you again.

Dr. Ellen Grant (31:30)

Thank you.

Carol Massar (31:30)

You guys are all amazing. They're all behind us.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (31:37)

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Tim Stanweck (32:34)

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Sponsor/Ad Voice (33:07)

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Tim Stanweck (33:19)

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Sponsor/Ad Voice (33:24)

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Tim Stanweck (33:32)

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Tim Stanweck (33:52)

Choosing Express Employment Professionals is the move to make this year with more than 870 locations. Find the one near you@expresspros.com that's expresspros.com you're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.

Carol Massar (34:20)

We continue with more of our conversations from Boston Children's Hospital. It was a broadcast we did earlier this month, a remote where we spoke with some of the nation's leading doctors on matters related to health, health policy and innovation when it comes to medical care, especially for kids.

Tim Stanweck (34:36)

Well, a fixture at my high school and College was torn ACLs, volleyball, lacrosse, soccer, field hockey, the torn ACL, the surgery to reconstruct it, weeks on crutches and and then months of recovery. This is Dr. Martha Murray's world. She's orthopedic surgeon in chief for Boston Children's Hospital. She joined Us from the hospital. Why do ACL tears affect women more than men?

Dr. Martha Murray (34:56)

Well, it's a really interesting question, and it's been one of much debate for the last few decades. And there have been things like, well, it must be a hormone cycle or it's the shape of women's hips and their valgus angles to their knees. But a really interesting study came out very recently from the Harvard School of Public Health as well as Harvard University with Dr. Danielson and Dr. Richardson, where they actually show that the studies that, that say that women tear their ACL more frequently than men were often based when the women's teams were smaller than the men's teams. And the way they calculated exposures was the number of practices or games you played in, not necessarily your playing time. So if you're a man who's on a hockey team versus a woman who's on a hockey team, the women's teams were smaller, so those women were playing more. So they were planting. That's a bad example. Soccer would be better, but if the team is smaller, the women are going to be planting and pivoting and playing much more time per game or practice. Stress, more use, more stress, more use, more tearing.

Tim Stanweck (35:51)

So maybe it's not. Maybe women and all things equal, maybe women and men don't have a different rate of torn ACLs.

Dr. Martha Murray (35:58)

Correct. When they corrected for unit of exposure. So kind of game time playing rather than just a game. The injury rates look very similar.

Tim Stanweck (36:05)

Wow, that's totally different than what I mean. Is this the standard now? I mean, do you think this is.

Dr. Martha Murray (36:14)

It's relatively new work that's coming out, but it resonates with most of us who take care of women and men on their athletic teams. Yeah.

Carol Massar (36:21)

I want to ask about your background material. Science and engineering. I know Tim said, not typical for a surgeon, but I think it's a really smart combination. Well, I have a doctor, a foot doctor, same thing, engineering. And like, he doesn't just deal with my foot. He thinks about, okay, what are you doing? What else is going on in your body? Tell me about that mix and why it's kind of unique and smart and ties things together.

Dr. Martha Murray (36:43)

Well, for me, it was actually of necessity. Right. So I was an engineering graduate student, and a friend of mine came into a party one night on crutches, as Tim was saying, and who had torn his acl. And I said, oh, are they going to go sew it back together? And he was a med student. He was like, you stupid engineer. We can't sew it back Together, you have to take it out and replace it with the graft of tenon that they're going to take from the back of my leg. And then it's all this rehab. And I thought, that seems kind of excessive, right? Like, that's a lot to have to go through. And so I spent the next six months or so in the medical school library just reading everything I could about why didn't the ACL heal? And I really. Nobody really had figured out why it didn't heal. They tried it sewing back together, didn't work. So then went to grafts, and we've been doing graphs for 50 years, and nobody really asked, why doesn't it heal? And so for me, then, there was no biomedical engineering at that time. And so my choices were to continue on with my project, which was developing airplane wings that were invisible to, you know, to radar. And I thought, well, that's a really cool project, but I really want to figure out this ACL thing. And my advisor was like, well, I guess you could go to medical school.

Carol Massar (37:44)

This is a Netflix series in the making.

Tim Stanweck (37:46)

Okay, well, the advisor obviously had an impact, and your friend obviously had an impact. But fast forward, you know, 30 years plus, and you have actually invented a new way to treat ACL tears. The bear method. You did figure out that there's a reason why ACLs don't heal like an MCL would actually heal. Why is that?

Dr. Martha Murray (38:05)

Well, it's really interesting. So both the medial collateral ligament and the anterior cruciate ligament are ligaments. When you look at them under the microscope, they look very similar. But interestingly, when the MCL tears, you can go in a brace, and at about six weeks, that ligament will heal fine, and you're back playing soccer. In contrast, the acl, when it tears, even if we try to sew it back together, it doesn't heal. And so we wondered why. And so we did a series of studies where we looked and we compared the two tissues and their response to injury. And what we found was that actually the response to injury was very similar in the two ligaments. So the tissue and the cells in the tissue were doing exactly what they were supposed to do in both tissues. But the difference was in the mcl, when it tears, the ends bleed. And that blood clots and form what we call a hematoma between the two torn ends of the ligament. And then, in contrast, in the acl, because it lives in this fluid environment of the joint, the ends bleed. But instead of making a clot or hematoma between the torn ends of the ligament, the blood disperses through the fluid of the joint. And so the two ends never have that scaffolding, that biologic scaffolding to hold them back together. So once we discovered that, then it was a fairly logical step to say, is there some way we could immobilize the blood in between those two torn ligament ends and get that biologic signal where it needs to be to encourage healing of the acl? And that's really what bridge enhanced ACL repair or bare is. So the magic is kind of the sponge that we've developed that can absorb the patient's blood. You can place that blood laden sponge in between the torn ends of the acl, sew the ACL back together, but now you have the biology, plus the sutures and the repair and the ligament will heal.

Tim Stanweck (39:34)

So what is done in terms of numbers or percentage with the method that you pioneered, what you invented versus actual reconstruction and using other ligaments?

Dr. Martha Murray (39:46)

That's a great question. So this is still fairly new. So we got FDA approval for this product in 2020 and so it's only been in practice for a few years now. There are studies coming out of children's here, which is where we did the first studies of course, but now other centers are coming along and doing follow on studies and those results are starting to come out and it's very exciting to watch it grow.

Carol Massar (40:06)

I'm also curious. You mentioned like FDA approval, like, like the approval process, is it a smart one? Is it the right one in terms of making sure that what's being done and studied, the R and D, that it's safe for when it's finally done on patients, or is it preventing things from maybe put into use sooner? I'm just curious where you guys weigh in. You're in it, you're in it every day.

Dr. Martha Murray (40:29)

Yeah, I think it's a delicate balance. But I would say in our personal experience, the FDA was an amazing partner. So we were able to get into an early adoption program where they actually met with us and helped us and put together a panel of experts that would help us figure out how to make this the safest possible product and the most effective product. Before we went to patients and we found their advice incredibly valuable. There was a lot of conversation and back and forth and just having them, it felt like it was a team effort because we were in alignment. I mean, as a physician, I was going to be shaking the hands of these patients and my partners were and we wanted to make sure things were as safe as possible. So they helped us with that, do.

Tim Stanweck (41:03)

We have data yet on long term impact or long term outcomes yet when it comes to the bare procedure?

Dr. Martha Murray (41:11)

Yeah, our longest data that we have is at about six years. And it's only in the small number of patients in those first studies that we did. But the reason that we want to study it longer term is because, as you may know, many of these patients will develop arthritis early in life. And as a pediatric orthopedic surgeon, I want to make sure we have a procedure that's going to last my patients for 60 or 70 years, not have the knee break down in 10 or 20 years. And so we're very interested in this arthritis question with Bayer. And in our pre clinical studies, we were able to see that arthritis was actually much less in the subjects that we treated with an ACL repair with the sponge versus a reconstruction. So we're interested in seeing if that same thing plays out in patients. And the early data suggests that it will. It is true. But again, that's very early data on small numbers of patients. So we're excited to see how that pans out.

Carol Massar (41:58)

We're talking with Dr. Martha Murray. She's orthopedic surgeon in chief for Boston Children's Hospital. That's where we are, Tim and me, on this Friday. Preventive care. Like so much of what we talk about often when we're doing interviews is preventive care. And I feel like the whole health community has been thinking about this for a long time. So what's the preventive care? So that as much as we don't want you unemployed, like how do we think about taking better care if we're living longer? Like how do we think about this?

Dr. Martha Murray (42:26)

So there's a couple questions on that. So one is how do we help our teenagers reduce their risk of injury? And I think the main thing for that for our athletes when they're in.

Carol Massar (42:33)

It, because we push kids when they're younger. I think a lot of parents really push kids.

Dr. Martha Murray (42:38)

So some things we can do to help them is help them work on strengthening in addition to just play time. And another thing is cross training. So not playing the same sport all year round or playing the same sport every day, giving their body a chance to rest and heal between exposures to sport.

Carol Massar (42:51)

It's as simple as that, I think.

Dr. Martha Murray (42:53)

So, wow.

Tim Stanweck (42:54)

Does ACL tear happen more in kids than adults? And if yes, is it because kids are the ones who are playing sports and you know, we're just sitting at computers?

Dr. Martha Murray (43:02)

I think that's probably part of it. Again, it gets to this exposure question, how many times do you plant and change direction? And so the peak of ACL Andrews is really the high school athlete because there's so many. Everybody's playing a sport, and so we see a lot of them there.

Carol Massar (43:15)

I want to ask you about social media and all of us sitting on phones or sitting in front of screens. Like, I just. I keep thinking that we're going to. One day. I don't know whether it's 50 years from now, we're going to have a neck that basically goes over there, or maybe not, because we're going to have glasses on. And that's how, like, how do you think about this digital world?

Tim Stanweck (43:30)

You're laughing, but can you surgically remove my phone from my hand? That's what. That's what Carol wants.

Carol Massar (43:34)

But I do think about what it's doing to us.

Dr. Martha Murray (43:37)

Well, look at. I want the ACL fixed for you. I don't know if I can fix.

Carol Massar (43:41)

This social media, but physically, like, I'm just thinking, like, how, you know, kids are in their phones constantly and stuff, and, like, the shape. Like, do we need to be thinking about what this is doing kind of to our spine and different things?

Dr. Martha Murray (43:53)

I think so. But I also think things come in cycles. Right. And we see. Now if you walk down the street, you see everybody's on their phone. I think we're gonna. Five years from now, we're gonna look back at that and say, why are we doing that? You know, maybe we'll start looking up at the sky more often.

Carol Massar (44:05)

I hope so.

Dr. Martha Murray (44:06)

So, yeah, that's what I hope, too.

Tim Stanweck (44:08)

Yeah. I mean, gosh, that's like you're opening up, you know?

Carol Massar (44:11)

I know. I just. I look around on the subway and just. Everybody and I'm just thinking the curvature and I don't know, whatever. What's the next thing you're working on or that you're excited about?

Dr. Martha Murray (44:19)

I'm really excited about a product that we're working on for rotator cuff injuries. And it's a product that's injectable, so that potentially, it's great. Yeah. You could have ultrasound of your shoulder, see where the tear is, and then inject the product into the tear, maybe in an office visit. So that's what we're working on. But very early days on that.

Tim Stanweck (44:34)

Again, a challenge with pediatric patients as well.

Dr. Martha Murray (44:36)

No, this is more adults. But we were just. We thought if we could make this work for a ligament, maybe we could try it for the rotator cuff tendon. And the nice thing about the rotator cuff is. It is accessible by ultrasound and injection and it's a pretty easy model for us to study. If we can make that injectable work there, then there's lots of other places we could apply it. Meniscus, other things.

Tim Stanweck (44:54)

Did you ever figure out the invisible airplane wings?

Carol Massar (44:57)

No, not too late.

Dr. Martha Murray (44:59)

Social media, invisible airplane wings, acl. You guys are killing it.

Tim Stanweck (45:03)

Well, we are glad you ended up going into pediatric orthopaedic surgery and another.

Carol Massar (45:08)

Career like you're gonna add on after this. You could do it. You could do it.

Dr. Martha Murray (45:13)

I'll try.

Carol Massar (45:14)

This was so much fun.

Dr. Martha Murray (45:15)

Yeah, it was fun. Thank you guys very much.

Carol Massar (45:16)

Dr. Martha Murray. She's orthopedic surgeon chief for Boston Children's Hospital.

Tim Stanweck (45:22)

This is the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa. Play Bloomberg 11:30.

Carol Massar (45:39)

Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg businessweek, a special holiday edition as we dig into travel, spirits and more. We're going to catch up with the founder and CEO of Farm Girl Flowers on running her multimillion dollar business. We'll hear about the consumer from her. And yes, we're going to talk even a little AI.

Tim Stanweck (45:57)

Plus, we talk bourbon, gin, rye, ready to drink cocktails and changing consumer habits with the CEO of the US Brand craft company.

Carol Massar (46:05)

First up this hour, Thanksgiving weekend. No surprise, it is one of the busiest holiday weekends for travel. Aaa projects nearly 82 million people will travel at least 50 miles from home over the Thanksgiving holiday period, which goes from Tuesday, November 25 to Monday, December 1. This year's domestic travel forecast includes an additional 1.6 million travelers compared to last Thanksgiving. And if so, that would set a new overall record.

Tim Stanweck (46:32)

Travel is less subject to inflation pressures, but if consumers are feeling the squeeze, they still may cut back their travel spending. Somebody who's got a pulse on travel spending is Mike Brown, who's president and CEO of Travel and Leisure. It's got close to 20 resort, travel club and lifestyle brands, including Margaritaville, Vacation Club, Club, Wyndham and more.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (46:52)

Well, ultimately we're 100% leisure travel company and our demographic is around $110,000 of average income, average FICO over 70, 730 average FICO score, age group upper 40s, low 50s. And really, when you start to think about who likes to travel with us, no matter the brand, they want bigger accommodations. They want consistency of brands and they want good value for their money and that's really the space that we operate in. And if you think about these last five years where inflation is running higher, high and you've already locked in your vacation dollars, the value component has been really strong and has propelled our growth here in the last five years.

Tim Stanweck (47:37)

How much of your business is sales of new memberships versus people actually just using what they bought maybe years ago?

Sponsor/Ad Voice (47:45)

Right. It's, it's actually one of the best endorsements of people's love of the product is that every year about 65% of our incremental purchases are from people who already own with us and want either more space or more vacation time time. The rest are from our new owner base who are dipping their toe in the water and seeing what this type of vacation travel is all about. So not only are we getting two thirds of our sale roughly from people who already own with us, what we also see is the people who've paid for their ownership already. There's a 98% retention rate. So two massive validations that once people own, they really love the product product and keep buying more.

Tim Stanweck (48:27)

So you know, timeshares, they, they get a bad rap. I mean they have a bad rap. I mean if you, if you like just Google get out of timeshare. There are legal companies that specialize in getting you out of timeshares is right. Yeah, I mean you know this, you know the industry is your product different than, than what people know as as timeshares. Why and why that good?

Sponsor/Ad Voice (48:52)

Look, it's interesting because I can even feel the a little bit uncomfortable this of asking the question because it has a history that predates the great financial crisis. But I think the untold story here and why I love coming on shows like yours, beyond it being a great show is that the industry has dramatically changed. 85% of the sales today are by companies that you might book your business day. Whether it's Marriott, Hilton, Window Kingdom, Margaritaville, Holiday Inn, Disney. All of these are the brands that have come to the forefront in the last 10 years. And the value proposition the way of vacationing with a brand you trust is not the reputation that it gained pre fight great financial crisis where it was independent real estate developers. And I would just encourage everyone to do your own research about these type of activities advertisements. There's a lot of press out there that's shown some really negative stories about them. That's for people to do their own research. But what I will tell you is that our retention rate, As I mentioned, 98%, 2/3 buy more. And this is now a massively branded industry that it wasn't when it gained that reputation you're referring to.

Carol Massar (50:10)

So what's like the trickiest component of your business? Is it. It Properties, management, labor. I'm just curious.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (50:20)

Yeah, it's a, it's a complicated business. We, we run a, a sales and marketing business. We run a management business. We, we operate the club so that we can get people from one of our 280 resorts to another. And we, we access the ABS market three times a year to, to sell our notes and gain cash flow. I think it's the management of all of that together. When you look at our company's performance, the satisfaction of our customer base and the growth of our brands, we've been highly successful and shown growth and showed a way to grow and it's shown through in our equity. But it's the experienced leadership to combine several very complicated businesses together to make sure that it's seamless for the consumer and that we're also ultimately fulfilling our mission, which is getting people on great vacation. So I would say it's the complexity of the management as opposed to an individual component that's really hard to operate. I would just add that one component that has become more complex is the development of real estate has become a lot more expensive. Expensive ground up. So we've moved to a conversion strategy in a lot of our new resorts.

Tim Stanweck (51:38)

So I want to talk a little bit more about the demographics here of, of your clientele. And certainly, you know, with 20 different brands, it, it depends on what actual brand we're talking about. You did give us some age demographics and where people are generationally. But in terms of spend, what are they spending and what do you know about where you know in terms of their other demographics like household net worth and what part of the economy you're able to get.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (52:05)

Right. Well, what, what we find in our product is the vast majority, irrespective of the brands are going to want to be in a situation where they want to know what they can expect from their vacation and a Margaritaville guest is going to want a sand a drink in your hand, that type of lifestyle. Whereas our newest brand, Eddie Bauer, they, these are people that want to hike in Zion national park or, or get to the great outdoors and enjoy a family reunion. Either way, our financial demographics are what I explained earlier. But what we see as the travel trend is people want experiences that match their personal lifestyle as opposed to four walls and then they have to go find their experience outside of the resort. So that's why we're launching Sports Illustrated brand Eddie Bauer Tower. We have Margaritaville, Club Wyndham, you mentioned. We see an opportunity to customize your experience inside the resort and outside as opposed to over separating the financial demographics. I will say one of our big focus is to pull the average age down as we launch new brands over the upcoming years.

Carol Massar (53:18)

You know, it's interesting. Like I do think about like how consumers relate to a specific brand. I mean, that really moves the needle, doesn't it? Whether it's Sports Illustrated. I'm just curious. And how do you guys think about what brands you want to affiliate yourselves with?

Sponsor/Ad Voice (53:35)

Right. If, if, you know, I've, I've, I have two, two children that are children. Young men that are at a university.

Carol Massar (53:44)

They're always boys to us.

Dr. Ellen Grant (53:45)

Right.

Carol Massar (53:45)

Or they're always kids.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (53:46)

Yeah, they really are. They really are. But I'll tell you, if I were to go, go up to Ann Arbor and I have the option to stay in an unbranded hotel with four walls or something that affiliates itself closer to the university, there's a natural pull to it and you know, I can apply that. If you're going to go to a beach destination, you have a chance. And if you're a Parrot Head and you want to be in that Margaritaville environment versus a resort, that, that's a brand that has thousands of resorts everywhere from the highways to the resort destinations, you're going to go to the Margaritaville location. And our Club Wyndham has a similar type of affiliation. So we just find that people are moving more and more to the lifestyle that attracts them. And we are therefore developing brands that allow them to just do that naturally to enjoy their lifestyle well inside of the resort and outside. And it's, it's already been received with a lot of great reception and we're excited about what we can do going forward.

Tim Stanweck (54:47)

What's the. You have so many different brands. You mentioned Margaritaville. We talked about Wyndham, Eddie Bowers. What are you missing?

Sponsor/Ad Voice (54:54)

Yes, I think there's a few things that, that we have to consider. We don't have any, anything in the luxury space today. What I would say, pure luxury luxury. There's a lot of opportunities to tie our type of product to, to the crude to cruise type of companies. And then as is always the case, someone you know, five years ago would have said, well, Eddie Bauer is not a hospitality name, but you immediately put that to an outdoor, outdoor living lifestyle. And I think our challenge is there's the typical hospitality verticals, which would include luxury country. But there's also just niche, niche lifestyle opportunities that we will look for. But you know, if I could just step back a second, the key to our success is whatever we do, we execute against it and we deliver on what we promised the street. And that success allows us more and more access to more and more brands. So I would expect that to allow us to move into these spaces that we currently aren't in.

Carol Massar (55:59)

Well, I'd love to be sitting at Margaritaville Vacation or at a Margarita vacation club with a margarita in my hand. But having said that, before we go, Mike, any signs of stress, any signs of, you know, economic, you know, concerns as you look at your business or maybe what it tells you about the, the outlook here?

Sponsor/Ad Voice (56:23)

Well, I would say my, my personal sentiment and what I'm seeing in our business is very similar TO it was 30 days ago, which was there's still uncertainty out there, which causes us to be looking intently every day with any metric internally that would, that would signal the economy is going one way or the other. Thirty days on from our earnings call, I would say that our performance and our outlook on the economy looks very similar than it did at the end of October when we reported our leisure travel demand is looking good for Q4. With the, with the sound that the shutdown is coming to an end, I was starting to worry that we might start to see changes in behavior between air and drive to traffic.

Tim Stanweck (57:08)

Are you seeing that at all, just very briefly?

Sponsor/Ad Voice (57:11)

We have not and in fact are it looks like our 25 bookings here in Q4 are at or slightly above where they were last year. And we haven't seen a dramatic change. We've seen ever so slightly that changed from fly to drive to. But I'm really confident that it had it gone on another week or two into the Thanksgiving season, we would have saw a noticeable shift of people in New York saying, look, let me just get to a drive to destination as opposed to flying to Orlando. I don't want to deal with the hassle with my free time. Fortunately, we, it looks as, it looks as if we will avoid that. But at this point we have not seen an indication that that that has caused change in leisure travel.

Carol Massar (57:52)

Mike Brown, President CEO of Travel and Leisure Company, joining us from Orlando.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (58:02)

Support for the show comes from public.com you're thoughtful about where your money goes. You've got your core holdings, some recurring crypto buys, maybe even a few strategic option plays on the side. The point is you're engaged with your investments and Public Public gets that. That's why they built an investing platform for those who take it seriously. On Public you can put together a multi asset portfolio for the long stocks, bonds, options, crypto. It's all there plus an industry leading 3.6% APY high yield cash account. Switch to the platform built for those who take investing seriously. Go to public.com market and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com paid for by Public Investing. All investing involves the risk of loss including loss of principal. Brokerage services for U.S. listed registered securities options and bonds in a self directed account are offered by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Crypto trading provided by ZeroHash complete disclosures.

Tim Stanweck (58:58)

Available at public.com disclosures if a Lenovo computer for your business is on your holiday list, don't shop around. Just go directly to the source lenovo.com you'll find exclusive deals on the PCs you want for your business like the ThinkPad X914, Aura Edition and Yoga 7i 2 in 1. So avoid all that shopping chaos and price comparing and just go directly to the source Lenovo.com where PCs are up to 50% off. That's Lenovo.com Lenovo Lenovo.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (59:32)

From providing extra support during busy seasons to replacing vacant roles, you need Express employment professionals on your team. Express can handle everything from contract placements.

Tim Stanweck (59:43)

To finding the right full time team member. Solve your workforce challenges when you let.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (59:48)

Express deal with the workers compensation, payroll, benefits and more so you can concentrate on what really matters growing your business.

Tim Stanweck (59:57)

Go to expresspros.com if you've never used.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (60:00)

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Tim Stanweck (60:20)

To make this year with more than 870 locations. Find the one near you@expresspros.com that's expresspros.com youm're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.

Carol Massar (60:45)

US consumer confidence led in November by the most in seven months on growing anxiety about the labor market and the US Economy.

Dr. Martha Murray (60:52)

Now.

Carol Massar (60:52)

A survey by the Conference Board released this past Tuesday also found that confidence fell across nearly all income levels after several months of increasing for most groups.

Tim Stanweck (61:03)

A gauge of expectations for the next six months declined to the lowest level since April, while measures of present conditions slumped to a more than one year low. The ongoing slide in consumer sentiment reflects lingering concerns about the impact of persistently high prices and a cooling labor market on Americans finances as well as the broader economy.

Carol Massar (61:22)

The health of the US Consumer is something we always focus on with Christina Stembel. She's the founder and CEO of Farm Girl Flowers. We've been talking to her for several years now. That firm, by the way, she bootstrapped starting back in 2010, making bouquets from her San Francisco apartment department. I got to say, it's come a long way.

Christina Stembel (61:39)

It's the first year that we're actually seeing any growth since 2020, but very small couple points, and that's very intentional. We're really focused on the bottom line. You know, we want to make sure all these companies are doing layoffs. I want to make sure we're not that, you know, we're actually. We have, I don't know, 10 or 12 open positions right now, which for a company our size is, is a lot. So we're just growing at a clip that we can do while maintaining our profit margin.

Tim Stanweck (62:03)

How big is the company?

Christina Stembel (62:03)

Company, we're about 35 million, you know, plus a little bit, but yeah. And how many people right under 30?

Tim Stanweck (62:11)

So you have like a third of your positions are open right now, basically. Are you having trouble finding those employees?

Christina Stembel (62:16)

We're just going slow. We're looking for the right people. So we have a lot of applicants, but we're just making sure we're bringing the right people. Yeah, I think I've learned that having the wrong people is actually worse than just not having anyone. So that's a lesson.

Dr. Martha Murray (62:28)

It's.

Carol Massar (62:29)

It is a good lesson. So in terms of 15 years, tell us about, like, how you look back at the beginning and where you were and some of the stages you've gone through and then where you are today.

Christina Stembel (62:37)

Yeah, I just sat down and wrote like, you know, 15 lessons in 15 years. You know, I might share them at the end of the year. I was just trying to think about, like, you know, where I'm at now versus, you know, I feel much healthier right now, personally and professionally. And like, why do I feel that way? And I think the biggest lesson that I had written down was that nothing is as it seems like. When I started, I wanted that founder story in Silicon Valley. I started in San Francisco. I wanted to be. Be the COVID of Ink or entrepreneur, one of the big Magazines and, you know, where everybody was like, she did it. Look at that. You know, and it was like, all my ego. I finally realized it was my ego. And we grew really, really fast. And that, like, played into my ego. And I felt like that was my entire identity, was that, you know, all the press we were getting with our, you know, fast growth, and yet 2019, we did 34 million in revenue and I did 36,000 in profit, and I paid myself $60,000. Like, this is not a success to. But the outward world thought I was so successful, and I'm like, I'm barely scraping by eating ramen. So I think really figuring out that I needed to be smaller like we talked about before and focusing on profit margin. Being a smaller company doesn't feed your ego anymore. But I finally figured out that everything I thought the business world was isn't all these sales, all these glossy pictures of people that made it. And like, yeah, it was like a fire sale most of the time. And it was like all these people I wanted to be that are the girl bosses that made it. I'm like, they don't own their companies anymore and they're, you know. Yeah.

Carol Massar (64:03)

And it's, you know, it's interesting because we've talked a lot, and I'm sure, like, through your head, you went through some journeys about, like, where do I want to go? Do I want to keep doing this? Do I want to bring in partners? Do I want to do whatever? You know what I mean? And I'm just curious, you know, Tim, like, I think about all the folks that kind of. Think about that kind of thing. Did you go through some of that?

Christina Stembel (64:23)

Absolutely. I mean, I built this to sell. Like, I wanted to sell it in 10 years. I mean, how many years can you work 100 hours a week and not die? You know? So I wanted to sell it so bad.

Ali Anderson (64:32)

That's so harsh.

Carol Massar (64:33)

It's the reality, right?

Christina Stembel (64:34)

Totally. And then we got an offer from one of our big competitors, like this big company, and I thought, yes, we're going to make it. And it was a horrible offer. And so now I'm building to keep instead of building to sell. And it's a completely different thing. Like, we're making. We're investing, investing in, you know, things. For five years from now.

Tim Stanweck (64:48)

You're able to build to keep rather than build to sell, because you built this company yourself and you didn't take on any financing, any funding, which is so strange for a startup that was built in Silicon Valley.

Christina Stembel (64:58)

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, I'm very fortunate. I'm in a CEO group with lots of CEOs that, you know, are constantly telling me how lucky I am, even though I have never felt lucky in this because I don't go into every board meeting being worried I'm going to be fired right now. Because you're the boss. Yeah, I'm the boss. I'm like, yeah, you know, we just, you know, we bought a farm. You know, nobody, no investors would ever let you buy a farm. We, you know, are farming now. That's a long term goal.

Tim Stanweck (65:20)

Well, I was gonna say last time you were on with us, we're get to the consumer in a second. But last time you were on with us, we talked about two things that really stuck out. One was the effect of tariffs. Did you buy a farm to offset the effect of tariffs?

Christina Stembel (65:30)

No, absolutely not. It is gonna help us.

Carol Massar (65:31)

It is.

Christina Stembel (65:32)

I mean, we bought the farm because we're like, let's do this. Because it's hard to get this type of flower at this time of year. Where we think we can get it where we're at at. We also built it because we're like, we're farm real flowers. Like, let's actually. Shouldn't we have a farm, shouldn't we have a farm and do that? You know, But I mean that we're, we're investing in, you know, we do think long term this vertical integration will allow us to keep a couple million dollars more in our pockets every year.

Dr. Ellen Grant (65:55)

Wow.

Christina Stembel (65:56)

Yeah, it's a lot.

Carol Massar (65:56)

You gave us such an education, I think, about where flowers come from. And I think there's just this assumption we go buy flowers. I don't know what, whether we thought they were all in the US and there wasn't right so much of the flowers.

Tim Stanweck (66:06)

Where's the, where's the farm?

Christina Stembel (66:07)

South? Well, Oregon. We bought the farm in Washington, so we have a small farm in Washington. We also put in about 40,000 plants in Oregon last year as well.

Tim Stanweck (66:15)

And will you be able to cultivate those flowers yearly, like every, like throughout the year?

Christina Stembel (66:21)

It takes three years for your first harvest. So again, that's why investors would never let you put the money into it now.

Tim Stanweck (66:26)

And the flowers that you produce at those farms on that land only go to you or do you sell them to others?

Christina Stembel (66:31)

Yeah, we'll keep it. You know, right now, the amount that we're growing, we can use that every year. If we decide to keep going, then we can wholesale it. It's another revenue chain for us.

Tim Stanweck (66:40)

What percentage of the flowers that are grown There, like, does that satisfy of the flowers that you use in a single year?

Christina Stembel (66:46)

Like a couple percent.

Dr. Martha Murray (66:47)

Okay.

Tim Stanweck (66:48)

It's still really. But you would never get. You would never be able to get to the point because of the global supply chain where you could actually grow all the flowers you would want.

Christina Stembel (66:56)

Never. And we don't want to. It's too much of a risk. You know, I learned through Covid that I definitely needed to diversify more than I had. I mean, having our facility that made 92% of our bouquets closed down in one day in 2020.

Carol Massar (67:10)

I remember you talking. Yeah.

Christina Stembel (67:11)

Taught me that. That wasn't very smart. So definitely making sure we diversify.

Carol Massar (67:14)

Now talk to us about tariffs in the environment. Like, I just think again, why. We love many reasons. We love talking to you, but you really give us an idea of what it's like to run a small business, although you've made it a bigger business over the years. But stuff coming out of Washington, tariffs. How has that changed? Has it gotten any easier?

Christina Stembel (67:32)

Yeah, no, we change, you know, and it actually hurts the consumers more. I mean, you know, because you raise prices. We raise prices. Or we have to buy off the shelf. Instead of making custom things that are nicer for them, we have to do things like that. We have to make concessions because we don't want to price ourselves out of the market. You know, we have to use different flash, even though they're not the ones that consumers want. You know, there are things like that.

Carol Massar (67:54)

I hate when florists do that.

Christina Stembel (67:55)

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like, it's not what we want to do. And also, I think we're the poster child for having tried to do this. Like, made in America, grown in America. Like, when we started, I only bought American grown flowers, Right. And we ran out of flowers in 2017. Just ran out. Now there's fewer farms than there were in 2017 because Labor's so high now with immigration issues. I mean, there is. I mean, I just came a couple weeks ago. I was just down in our fields, and we were just getting it ready for winter. I couldn't walk for three days after doing one week of work in the fields. Like, there are not people here that are wanting to be farm workers. Let me just say.

Carol Massar (68:35)

So what would you say to folks who are like, no pushing back on immigration? It makes sense. We have to be doing this. What would you say to folks who are listening or watching right now?

Christina Stembel (68:45)

I think that ship has sailed. Generations ago. There is no way, like, you know, we tried to buy American grown. It wasn't possible. We're not gonna bring farming back to this country unless we do something about immigration. There are too many ripple effects going on with why it won't work. Also having production facilities of making bouquets in the United States. We do. We make about 50% in the United States and 50% outside of the United States. Can I ask you where outside South America.

Carol Massar (69:10)

South America. Okay.

Christina Stembel (69:12)

And most of them are in the United States, but the flowers are coming from South America. We have a few in South America that are making bouquets as well. And it doesn't work. I think Ford Motor Company is a good example of this when they're talking about open jobs or I talked to a guy that has an engine rebuilding plant in the Midwest that had 40% open positions.

Tim Stanweck (69:32)

We just don't have those people in this country anymore.

Christina Stembel (69:34)

We're telling people, go to college so you don't have to work a factory job.

Tim Stanweck (69:37)

Job.

Christina Stembel (69:37)

Nobody wants to work a factory job.

Carol Massar (69:38)

You also have an aging population.

Dr. Ellen Grant (69:39)

Right.

Carol Massar (69:40)

So we're not replenishing.

Tim Stanweck (69:41)

So we talked about tariffs, we talked about farming. We talked quite a bit about your story to the consumer and the American consumer. How is the consumer in your view?

Christina Stembel (69:52)

The consumer has definitely shifted, I think, just like what you were talking about, you know, people right now it's a little concerning with the economy where, you know, people are still spending a lot of money, but the people that can't spend a lot of money can't buy. So, you know, it's not the company I want to be where I'm only appealing to one type of consumer. So we're really trying to make sure that we're not doing that. But with tariffs and rising prices on everything that, you know, put kind of backs you in a corner of. What do you do? You know, I don't want every bouquet to cost $150, because how many people can afford $150 bouquet to send to the restaurant for their birthday? You know, so we're looking at.

Carol Massar (70:28)

And as a consumer, like, I know I definitely come back. It's like you can't do as much as you would like to.

Christina Stembel (70:32)

Absolutely. And we're in the gifting space, so you just cut gifts out. And we don't want that. So we're looking at trying to find ways to get closer to the end consumer so we can cut it in shipping instead of the flower cost and things like that, that we can be a little bit creative with.

Carol Massar (70:44)

Wreaths. How big, like, do you do a lot of wreaths?

Christina Stembel (70:47)

We wish we could do More. We sell out of them all the time. We're working with a lot of new producers. They're high labor.

Carol Massar (70:53)

Really.

Christina Stembel (70:54)

It's a highly high lab. Yeah. So we are constantly looking at. We. We work with small farms on our wreath making program. So very proud of that and trying to get more for us.

Carol Massar (71:02)

I love.

Dr. Lyssa Baird (71:03)

I would.

Carol Massar (71:03)

I have wreaths.

Tim Stanweck (71:04)

It smells really good.

Carol Massar (71:04)

It does smell really good. She walked into the studio. If you had to do a word to describe the outlook, how do you see it right now?

Christina Stembel (71:12)

Bleak but hopeful.

Carol Massar (71:13)

Wow.

Ali Anderson (71:15)

Wow.

Christina Stembel (71:16)

Yeah. Yeah. I think.

Carol Massar (71:17)

And this is with somebody who's got business going. Job openings.

Christina Stembel (71:21)

Yeah.

Tim Stanweck (71:22)

Wow. In terms of the context of the last 15 years, apart from COVID where is it? Like, what year are we?

Carol Massar (71:27)

10 seconds?

Christina Stembel (71:28)

15. Bleak. I would just say because of personally how I feel about what's going on. But, like, we're doing okay. So I'm hopeful that, that we're going to make some changes.

Carol Massar (71:36)

And you bought a farm.

Christina Stembel (71:37)

Yes, bought a farm.

Carol Massar (71:38)

I love that I want to be able to say we bought a farm. Christina Stamble, founder and CEO of Farm Girl Flowers always makes us feel good.

Dr. Lyssa Baird (71:44)

This is Bloomberg.

Tim Stanweck (71:47)

This is the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa. Play Bloomberg 11:30.

Carol Massar (72:05)

All right, we've got something fun to talk about.

Tim Stanweck (72:07)

Well, our Bloomberg Intelligence team is out with a really interesting note that could add to the woes facing the spirits industry.

Carol Massar (72:12)

Oh, so not so fun.

Tim Stanweck (72:13)

Well, you said. Yeah, maybe not. Use of weight loss drugs stand a deep in alcohol's demand slump in the US And Europe as moderation in wellness gains trends gained ground. So by 2035, consumption of beer and spirits is expected to drop 20.3% and 19.2% respectively, among GLP1 users. That's here in the U.S. this according to an analysis from Bloomberg Intelligence.

Carol Massar (72:37)

Yeah, total losses could reach 28.5 billion. Translates to about a 3 to 4% sales drag in the US and 2 to 3% in Europe. There's that going on. The whole alcohol industry globally has had to deal with tariffs coming out of the United States. So that's going on. And so we'll see as the president and the administration has been looking at the cost of things, some rollbacks. I'm not quite sure how that will ultimately maybe impact the liquor industry, but we'll be keeping it out.

Tim Stanweck (73:06)

Well, it's the economic Backdrop that informs our conversation with ali Anderson. She's CEO at KraftCo. It's got a portfolio that includes more than two dozen spirits and liqueurs. Think bourbon, gin, rye, ready drink cocktails and more. The company also does co packing for other brands. She joins us from a distillery in Holland, Michigan. Last time you were on with us, we spent the whole time talking about tariffs and the effect of tariffs on your business. And that's just one element that's a headwind. Other headwinds include changing consumer tastes and how people think about GLP1s and increasingly people taking GLP1s and that leading people to drink less. What is the environment for you out there right now?

Ali Anderson (73:42)

Yeah, I mean, first of all, thank you for having me back. It's good to see you guys. All of the headlines, they seem pretty bleak. Right. But I think that's, that's what business is today, especially in the spirits industry. So what's the name of the game? You have to pivot. You know, we certainly want to promote as much health as we can across all industries, but what we're looking at here is lifestyle shift shifts. And so the industry has to, has to shift with it. You know, anecdotally, I was out to dinner with a friend a couple weeks ago who was, who was on a. You know, I said, you look great, and he said, I'm cheating.

Carol Massar (74:15)

It's.

Ali Anderson (74:16)

It's a shot. But we enjoyed two cocktails and a lovely meal. So I think you see people making healthy choices when and where they can and what they're actually choosing. What my friend chose that night was quality over quantity. And so those are the pivots and the shifts that we have to make industry as well.

Carol Massar (74:33)

I'm super like that with chocolate. Like, I just need a little piece of super good chocolate. I don't need a lot. And then I'm happy. And so, yeah, same thing with alcohol. No, no, but let's go, let's go there because I do think price point is something increasingly. Yes, health diet, that's certainly an aspect, but price point is certainly increasingly something that we know all consumers are looking at. We saw that play out in the recent, recent elections in some of the states. Like the economy does matter. The money that is in or not in your pocketbook, it matters.

Ali Anderson (75:07)

Absolutely does. And you know, I've got, I've got premium brands, I have brands that cross the spectrum. And so what we're seeing is, yeah, our consumers down, shifting just a little bit. Sure. But we're also seeing tremendous growth with Products that are, you know, over $200. So I think you are seeing a disparity across all of the price tiers. But at the same time, like I said, you're seeing people redefine what premium really means. I think it's becoming maybe less about price point and more about what the purpose driven value is, what the occasion in their life. They're using, they're using alcohol to celebrate with. So I think, you know, at the end of the day, people want transparency. They want transparency in price, they want transparency in how we source, source, how we produce, how we give back all of those things.

Tim Stanweck (75:56)

In terms of the lineup that you have right now, you said people are choosing quality over quantity. Is there a certain. You have a large range of what you do? I mean, dozens of different spirits and alcohols, liqueurs, ready to drink cocktails. Where's the strength?

Ali Anderson (76:13)

It's inconvenience, Variety, innovation. I think people don't. What we're seeing is people don't mind spending a little bit more for something that they haven't seen before.

Dr. Martha Murray (76:26)

Right.

Ali Anderson (76:26)

And that could be with an rtd. So maybe it's. Maybe it's a little more expensive rtd, but it's a flavor combination they haven't quite had before. Or maybe it's a really luxury whiskey with a finish or a blending technique in our case that they haven't seen before. So again, I think people, we vote with our dollars, right. And they'll, they'll consume what they think is new, interesting, and what they can get information about what they connect with.

Carol Massar (76:50)

So rtd, obviously, ready to drink? I've had certainly some of those. Hey, you sent over to our team so that we could share with the audience some of the stuff that you guys. I actually have next to me. Copper Craft Distillery. Made in the usa, Holland, Michigan. It's straight bourbon whiskey. Tell me about this one. I'm actually gonna be. It's been quite a day. It's been quite a week. It's been quite while. A year. I'm gonna.

Ali Anderson (77:12)

Actually, can I join you? Yes. Can I join you?

Carol Massar (77:14)

We're so.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (77:15)

Yes.

Carol Massar (77:16)

Wait, I'm gonna.

Tim Stanweck (77:16)

She's at the.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (77:17)

You're.

Tim Stanweck (77:18)

You're here in the studio?

Carol Massar (77:19)

I'm here.

Ali Anderson (77:20)

I'm here in our pack.

Tim Stanweck (77:21)

Hallie's at the distillery.

Ali Anderson (77:22)

I don't want to.

Carol Massar (77:22)

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Dr. Ellen Grant (77:25)

Oh, there we go.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (77:26)

Okay.

Dr. Ellen Grant (77:27)

I didn't want.

Carol Massar (77:28)

I didn't want to spill it. Okay, so tell me, but tell me about this because it isn't certainly a brand That I think I'm familiar with. But you're right, people are looking. I know when I go to buy a winer, I like to try. Tried different things.

Ali Anderson (77:40)

Right, right. So, you know, we're based out of Holland, Michigan. And you think, I get this question all the time. Isn't whiskey just in Kentucky? And the great thing about an American spirit is that it can be in all 50 states. And so for us, we're in Holland, Michigan, on the west side of Michigan, here on the lakeshore. And we create. We've had this brand for. For many, many years. And I think what you've got is. It's a. It's a straight bourbon whiskey.

Carol Massar (78:04)

I can smell the whiskey sour. That could also be made out of this.

Tim Stanweck (78:06)

But this is finished in. This is finished. Finished in rum casks. What does that mean?

Ali Anderson (78:11)

Well, it means we took an already amazing whiskey. I think the one you've got is 8 years old. And we put it in. Oh, I don't have any casks in this room. We put it in a rum cask that used to hold rum and we just let it rest for about a year.

Tim Stanweck (78:23)

So it takes on a different flavor than something that would be finished in a different type of cask.

Carol Massar (78:28)

But I see what you say, like you don't we. This reminds me of my dad who used to make whiskey sours for all of us as kids. And most of the times it was a lot more art oranges and cherries in it than whiskey. But you could also just the variety. I feel like the craft industry, even in liqueur, like you just alone, it's just something really nice.

Ali Anderson (78:52)

Right? Like what did craft used to be? If we look back at beer, we think craft was small batch. Craft whiskey, small batch. And craft, much like the way we redefine premium craft has evolved too. So like you just said, you know, I've not heard of this before. What is this? And so craft is now evolving. And to be. What is that experience I can get. Who are the people that make it? How transparent are they about what they're doing? Can I go visit them? Who are. You know, it's. It's. That's what craft is now. It's the process, the technique, the people, the story that you're telling about the whiskey or the spirit, the.

Tim Stanweck (79:24)

The distribution of this is. Is a question that I have because at least here in New York City, I don't know how it works in other parts of the world, but in other parts of the country. But you walk into a liquor store store And I've talked to some of these folks in there, and again, it's changes depending on where you live, but it's a challenge to get smaller brands on the shelves, especially with the. The big brands, the. The large brands that own a good portion, they come in and say, okay, well, if you want to carry this, you have to carry this. And there's not much power that these small companies have. How do you make sure you get shelf space? And shelf space, that's like premium.

Ali Anderson (80:02)

What a great question. Relationships. Like any business, any industry, it really does come down to relationships. And for a small, you know, craft. Right. We've got five brands. We cover 42 states, and we're still crafts. What does that mean? We have to show up in market. You've got to show up at that retailer. You've got to show up with the distributors. Those distributors are still my customers. So it's. It's built on relationships and making sure they know.

Dr. Joan LaRovere (80:27)

Know.

Ali Anderson (80:27)

Just like we connect with our consumers online.

Dr. Ellen Grant (80:29)

Yeah.

Ali Anderson (80:30)

And tell the stories, make sure they know who we are and that we are a small business, that every single sale matters to us. And much like them, you know, we're. We're. We're just trying to connect with consumers. So I think it's finding that common ground through relationships.

Carol Massar (80:44)

Yeah, it always comes down to that. I feel like relationships for so many different industries. Hey, before you go, we've talked about copper craft, and I actually sampled some, but you also shared with our team just to kind of look at kind of the variety and different places. You go. Elderflower. I'm a little obsessed with elderflower right now. And you've got Thatcher's organic.

Tim Stanweck (81:08)

Artisanal.

Carol Massar (81:09)

Artisanal, yeah.

Tim Stanweck (81:09)

You got to move to Brooklyn. Artisan.

Carol Massar (81:11)

Artesian.

Tim Stanweck (81:12)

Oh, it's artisan.

Carol Massar (81:13)

Yeah. Yeah. That's why. Sorry, sorry. I couldn't read.

Tim Stanweck (81:15)

I'm not looking at the word, but.

Carol Massar (81:16)

I'm looking off my. Because we took a picture. You've got fox and. Is it Odette?

Tim Stanweck (81:21)

Jenny.

Ali Anderson (81:22)

Odin.

Carol Massar (81:22)

Odin.

Dr. Ellen Grant (81:23)

Okay.

Carol Massar (81:23)

Forgive me. Sorry. I'm looking at a small picture, but tell us a little bit about some of the other ones. And then Thatcher's vodka. It's not because I've been drinking. I just couldn't read the picture because I took a picture so I could read on air. Go ahead, I'll join you.

Ali Anderson (81:36)

I'll join you.

Carol Massar (81:37)

Here's at the end here.

Ali Anderson (81:38)

No, it's Thatcher's organic.

Sponsor/Ad Voice (81:40)

Right.

Ali Anderson (81:40)

It's. You know, we think about spirits. Does it really matter? Yeah, sure does Something like Thatcher is very culinary forward. So you mentioned elderflow flower. I bet we're drinking the heck out of Hugo spritzes right now with that elderflower. Totally amazing, right?

Carol Massar (81:53)

Yes.

Dr. Ellen Grant (81:53)

Yeah.

Ali Anderson (81:54)

And again, that's a, that's a way to enjoy maybe a little bit of lower proof, but still, still feel great and be festive and all of those things. So, you know, then we've got like Fox and Odin is, is luxury whiskey and that's be. We've got a beautiful double oaked that was just up for. We had two of the top five finalists for the best special barrel finish whiskeys in the world a couple Sundays ago in San Francisco. So, you know, we're super proud. We're craft, we're competing against all these big guys, but because of what we're able to do with our size, with our expertise, you know, we can deliver some really luxury things to the market as well. And we do.

Tim Stanweck (82:31)

That was Ali Anderson, CEO of KraftCo.

Carol Massar (82:34)

All right, so all of you who are maybe still eating some leftovers from Thanksgiving, it's kind of my favorite thing to have, like pecan pie. Pecan pie for breakfast.

Tim Stanweck (82:43)

Hey, call it what you will, but just, just eat it, you know, whatever.

Carol Massar (82:46)

But what you might have noticed over the holiday, over Thanksgiving is that alcohol consumption, people are drinking less consumption here in the US when it comes to alcohol has fallen to its lowest level in decades, driven by health fears. GLP1, weight loss, drugs that can actually dull alcohol cravings, and of course, rising Cannabis use. About 51% of respondents in a September Bloomberg intelligence survey said they now substitute cannabis, cannabis for alcohol, at least weekly. So up about 5 percentage points from last year. And that includes in the Thanksgiving feasts.

Tim Stanweck (83:17)

Yeah, this is pretty wild. So the Wednesday before Thanksgiving. Yeah, some have started dubbing that Wednesday, Green Wednesday. This is according to the bdsa. That's the Cannabis Market Tracker. Yeah, it's the second biggest day of the year for legal cannabis sales in.

Carol Massar (83:34)

The U.S. maybe everybody just wants to kind of mellow out, you know, before they see all their family. Well, or why aren't you married? Why don't you have kids?

Ali Anderson (83:42)

Why don't you like, why don't you.

Carol Massar (83:43)

Finish that degree, like. Anyway, all I'm gonna say is whether you had a happy Thanksgiving or Happy Danksgiving, you know, I just hope you had a good and safe holiday.

Tim Stanweck (83:54)

I like that Danksgiving.

Carol Massar (83:55)

Check out this story. It's on the Bloomberg.

Tim Stanweck (83:57)

There's a reason it was one of the most read.

Carol Massar (83:59)

Charles Gorvin of Bloomberg News wrote it Americans ditching wine to get high on gummies this Thanksgiving. So maybe that was your Thanksgiving as well. All right, that wraps up this Thanksgiving weekend edition of Bloomberg businessweek from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so much for joining us.

Tim Stanweck (84:12)

I'm Tim Stanweck.

Carol Massar (84:14)

Wait, haven't you ever done the cousin walk?

Tim Stanweck (84:15)

I don't even know what that is.

Dr. Lyssa Baird (84:17)

It's the story.

Tim Stanweck (84:20)

If you know, you know.

Carol Massar (84:21)

I guess you our producer Sebastian Escapar said okay.

Tim Stanweck (84:25)

Yeah.

Carol Massar (84:26)

And I'm Carol Massar. Have a good and safe holiday weekend. Enjoy the leftovers.

Tim Stanweck (84:31)

This is the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify and anywhere else you get. Your podcasts listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live Every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal. If a Lenovo computer for your business is on your holiday list, don't shop around. Just go directly to the source. Lenovo.com you'll find exclusive deals on the PCs you want for your business like the ThinkPad X914 Aura Edition and Yoga 7i 2in1. So avoid all that shopping chaos and price comparing and just go directly to the source lenovo.com where PCs are up to 50% off. That's lenovo.com. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here wishing you a very happy half off holiday because right.

Christina Stembel (85:36)

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Sponsor/Ad Voice (85:40)

To be clear, that's half price, not half the service.

Carol Massar (85:44)

Mint is still premium unlimited wireless for a great price.

Christina Stembel (85:47)

So that means a half day.

Dr. Ellen Grant (85:50)

Yeah.

Tim Stanweck (85:51)

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Ali Anderson (85:54)

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Christina Stembel (85:58)

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Ali Anderson (86:00)

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Carol Massar (86:03)

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