Comcast to Spin Off NBCUniversal in Surprise Strategy Reversal

Summary

Bloomberg Businessweek – Episode Summary

Podcast: Bloomberg Businessweek
Episode: Comcast to Spin Off NBCUniversal in Surprise Strategy Reversal
Date: June 29, 2026
Hosts: Carol Massar & Tim Stenovec
Key Guests: Chris Palmieri (Bloomberg News), James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence), Cynthia Chen (Kickoff), Governor Eric Holcomb (Raise Us)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Bloomberg Businessweek dives deep into three major themes shaping today's business landscape:

1. Comcast's Stunning NBCUniversal Spinoff: Analyzing Comcast’s decision to unwind its longstanding media strategy and spin off NBCUniversal—a pivotal reversal with wide repercussions for the media industry.
2. Market Leverage and Leveraged ETFs: Unpacking leverage trends in the U.S. stock market and the growing prominence (and risks) of leveraged ETFs, with cautionary insights into volatility.
3. AI’s Impact on Jobs and Workforce Readiness: Examining how artificial intelligence is splitting the labor market; plus, a conversation with Raise Us on preparing America’s workers for the AI revolution.

Additional discussions include innovations in credit-building for the "credit invisible," through an interview with Kickoff's Cynthia Chen.

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1. Comcast’s NBCUniversal Spinoff: A Media Strategy Reversal

Key Segment: [02:15] – [08:26]
Guest: Chris Palmieri, Bloomberg News Senior Editor

Context & Announcement

• Comcast’s Strategy U-Turn: Comcast shares jumped up to 17% upon announcing it will spin off NBCUniversal and Sky, unwinding a decade-old strategy of combining cable and media under one roof.
• Assets Breakdown:
  • NBCUniversal Spin-Off Will Contain: Universal theme parks, film/TV studios, NBC & Telemundo networks, Peacock, Bravo, Sky.
  • Comcast Retains: Core cable TV, broadband, and wireless operations.

Key Discussion Points

• Shift in Media Economics:

  • "Fifteen years ago cable networks were king... but the world, as [Brian Roberts] noted, has changed and people are canceling cable." (Chris Palmieri, [03:16])
  • Original vertical integration has unraveled as streaming and unbundling trends undercut the value of owning both the “pipes” and the “content.”

• Valuation and Financial Impact:

  • Expected NBCUniversal value: $35–$40 billion, roughly what Comcast paid over 15 years ago ([03:51]).
  • Comcast’s stock underperformed (down 22% through Friday), prompting the split to unlock value and enable more flexible deal-making.

• Potential Buyers and Deal Structure:

  • Future acquisition interest from Netflix, Apple, Amazon speculated, but legal/tax constraints prevent immediate M&A post spin-off ([04:29]).
  • The Roberts family retains major voting control, meaning “nobody’s going to do a deal without Brian Roberts.” (Chris Palmieri, [04:29])

• Reasons for the Split:

  • Declining cable and broadband customers due to rising wireless/fiber competition and disruptors like Starlink and T-Mobile ([07:30]).
  • Comcast aims to get “more flexible… able to do deals and move in this media environment quicker.” ([05:27])

Notable Quotes

• “I mean Brian Roberts... said today... 15 years ago cable networks were king... but the world, as he noted, has changed and people are canceling cable.”
  — Chris Palmieri ([03:16])

• “If you look at Comcast stock price, it's... still trading below it was in 2021.... This is an acknowledgment that they weren't getting any credit for this business.”
  — Chris Palmieri ([05:27])

• “Their strategy is to really kind of be a lot nicer than the cable company was traditionally to consumers… they're trying to hang on to those customers because it's a lucrative business… it's just... shrinking.”
  — Chris Palmieri ([07:57])

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2. Market Leverage and Leveraged ETFs: Risks and Trends

Key Segment: [11:05] – [19:27]
Guest: James Seifert, Senior Research Analyst, Bloomberg Intelligence

Context

With leverage helping fuel the current U.S. stock rally, concerns grow about risks, especially through levered ETFs and shadow banking dynamics. Matt Levine covered similar issues in his latest column.

Key Discussion Points

• Growth in Leveraged ETFs:

  • Traditional market-wide leveraged ETFs have been around since the financial crisis, but recent explosive growth centers on single-stock leveraged ETFs, now exceeding $50B in AUM ([12:09]).
  • Leveraged long ETFs far outnumber short ETFs, with a 15:1 ratio. Historically, short exposure once rivaled or exceeded longs, but not today ([12:53]).

• Risks and Market Impact:

  • “The real concerns... is like in niche parts of this market where you have like smaller single stock ETFs that are 2x levered and they get too big for the underlying stock… We had that happen with MicroStrategy... in 2024.”
    — James Seifert ([13:24])
  • Large names (e.g., Nvidia) are less at risk, but “tail wagging the dog” events can occur in mid- and small-cap stocks.

• Volatility Spillovers:

  • Leveraged ETFs inject additional volatility into markets, especially when their exposure becomes significant relative to underlying securities ([14:33]).
  • Seifert notes that products mostly behave as trading tools, and turnover is very high—mitigating some risks of asset buildup ([15:43]).

• Self-Policing by Banks:

  • Market overgrowth risk is limited by banks’ internal risk controls, which can cap ETF growth, as happened with MSTR ([16:53]).

Notable Quotes

• “The real concerns is... niche parts... smaller single stock ETFs... get too big for the underlying stock... that's where I worry you could end up with the tail wagging the dog.” — James Seifert ([13:24])

• “They definitely increase volatility no matter how you slice it.... Single stock ETFs... definitely increasing the volume... on really volatile days, those... can impact things over a shorter time period.” — James Seifert ([14:33])

• “The numbers you cited are correct... This is the fastest we've ever seen an IPO be added to ETFs across the board.” (re: Space X joining Russell 1000)
  — James Seifert ([18:46])

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3. Building Credit for the “Credit Invisible”

Key Segment: [22:38] – [30:42]
Guest: Cynthia Chen, Founder & CEO of Kickoff

Context

Roughly 17 million Americans have little or no credit history—hindering access to apartments, cars, jobs. Kickoff is a fintech aiming to help such individuals build credit.

Key Discussion Points

• Personal Inspiration & Company Genesis:

  • “I came to the US when I was 17... no credit. That's why I realized... I would need to build credit.”
    — Cynthia Chen ([23:41])

• How Kickoff Works:

  • Offers an unsecured credit product via their online store—users make small purchases (starting from $5/month) and pay off over 12 months; on-time payments are reported to all three major credit bureaus ([24:25]).
  • Also reports rent and utility payments—“helping them establish payment history.”

• Impact & Outcomes:

  • Typical customer starts below 600 credit score; “on average, they can expect 86 point increase,” moving them “well north of 650” in a year ([26:13]).
  • Over 80,000 mortgages and 800,000 auto loans originated by Kickoff users so far ([28:55]).
  • 100% of verified users build some credit history, due to diverse reporting mechanisms ([29:48]).

• Pricing & Features:

  • Three subscription tiers: $5/month, $20/month, $35/month ([30:16]).
  • Highest tier includes privacy and identity protection services ([30:27]).

Notable Quotes

• “The most important factor in the credit building process is positive payment history, and we deliver exactly that at Kickoff.”
  — Cynthia Chen ([24:25])

• “Our customers... after having used our products for 12 months... can expect 86 point increase, which will get them to well north of 650...”
  — Cynthia Chen ([26:13])

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4. Navigating the AI Labor Transformation: “Raise Us” and Workforce Adaptation

Key Segment: [33:57] – [45:07]
Guest: Eric Holcomb, 51st Governor of Indiana & Co-founder of Raise Us

Reported Study & New Organization

• AI’s Labor Impact: PwC’s 2026 AI Jobs Barometer finds that AI-related roles grow almost 8x faster than the job market overall, with strong wage growth.
• Raise Us: A nonpartisan, national org co-founded by Holcomb and Gina Raimondo, aiming to prepare the U.S. workforce for AI-driven change by working with companies, governors, and education providers.

Key Discussion Points

• Nature of the Challenge:

  • The rapid pace of AI, quantum tech, and robotics threatens to sideline unprepared workers.
  • “We are at Raise Us... out to make sure that the American worker knows that there are pathways that will scale up alongside them as the AI-infused economy... comes to bear.”
    — Governor Holcomb ([35:36])

• Skepticism about Corporate Partners:

  • Raise Us partners include Amazon, Microsoft, OpenAI—potential conflicts addressed:
    “We want those folks that are creating that change to be part of the solution.... Every sector out there is... tech.”
    — Governor Holcomb ([37:45])

• Lessons from Past Transitions:

  • Citing the failed retraining after NAFTA, Holcomb stresses building targeted talent pipelines aligned with actual business demand ([41:33]).
  • "If we don't have the right folks at the table collectively and have the right support... it will be for not."
    — Governor Holcomb ([41:33])

• Urgency & Bipartisan Leadership:

  • “You’re going to feel [AI’s impact] now, you’re going to feel it... think about [AI, quantum, robots] really synchronized... that calls for more humans.... Failure is not an option...”
    — Governor Holcomb ([43:39])
  • Praised the cross-partisan partnership with Gina Raimondo as a model for tackling divisive issues practically ([44:33]).

Notable Quotes

• “We have to build talent pipelines that are directed, that are focused to specific sectors that are in demand.... We have to simply supply the workforce to meet the business demand.”
  — Governor Holcomb ([41:33])

• “We operate independently... I would look at these supporters as people who want to be part of the solution to the inevitable technological gains that's going to lead to... mass new opportunities...”
  — Governor Holcomb ([37:45])

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• “If you look at Comcast stock price, it's... still trading below it was in 2021.... This is an acknowledgment that they weren't getting any credit for this business.”
  — Chris Palmieri ([05:27])

• “The real concerns... smaller single stock ETFs... that's where I worry you could end up with the tail wagging the dog.”
  — James Seifert ([13:24])

• “I came to the US when I was 17... no credit. That's why I realized... I would need to build credit.”
  — Cynthia Chen ([23:41])

• “We are at Raise Us... out to make sure that the American worker knows that there are pathways that will scale up alongside them as the AI-infused economy... comes to bear.”
  — Governor Holcomb ([35:36])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Comcast’s NBCUniversal Spinoff: [02:15] – [08:26]
• Leveraged ETFs & Market Leverage: [11:05] – [19:27]
• Building Credit for the Credit Invisible: [22:38] – [30:42]
• AI, Jobs, & Raise Us: [33:57] – [45:07]

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Takeaways

• Shifting Business Models: Comcast’s decision reflects broader disruption of the media-cable model, driven by streaming and changing consumer behaviors.
• Risk and Volatility: Market leverage trends, especially through fast-growing leveraged ETFs, require vigilance—banks are self-policing but systemic risks persist.
• Access and Inclusion: Innovative fintechs like Kickoff help "credit invisible" Americans integrate into the financial system, unlocking economic opportunity.
• AI’s Rising Tide: Preparing the workforce for a rapidly automating economy is urgent; public-private and bipartisan initiatives are critical to ensure economic inclusion and societal stability.

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For Listeners:

This episode is packed with sharp, editorial insight on seismic business trends—from media upheaval to fintech innovation and the future of work. If you need a pulse on what’s next in business, finance, and tech, this is essential listening.

Transcript

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[Podcast Host (Carol Massar or Tim Stannwek)]

Bloomberg Audio Studios podcasts radio news this is Bloomberg Businessweek daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg businessweek Daily Podcast with Carol Massar and Tim Stanweck on Bloomberg Radio.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Comcast shares, they were up as much as 17% earlier in the session. They're up about 6% right now. This is pretty wild. The company plans to spin off NBC Universal and Sky Unwinding, a strategy that began more than a decade ago after struggling to demonstrate that a cable and media conglomerate would benefit shareholders.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

I mean listen what we have been seeing when it comes to media companies, cable companies in particular, I feel like the build the add ons and now we're seeing the unwinding in a big way.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Well, let's talk about that unwinding. Chris Palmieri is Bloomberg News Senior Editor and Entertainment Team leader. He joins us from Los Angeles. Okay, I'm going to go through this slowly for folks who have not written all this down on the whiteboard yet. Chris. NBCUniversal. It'll have the theme parks division, Universal Film and Television Studios and Nick the NBC and Telemundo broadcast networks, Peacock, Bravo, European Media business, Sky. Comcast will have the company's original cable tv, broadband and wireless businesses. So does this mean Comcast is getting completely out of content?

[Chris Palmieri (Bloomberg News Senior Editor, Entertainment Team Leader)]

Yes. Yeah.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Okay.

[Chris Palmieri (Bloomberg News Senior Editor, Entertainment Team Leader)]

I mean Brian Roberts, the chairman and co CEO said today on the call, he said, look, 15 years ago cable networks were king and you know, they were buying them. That's when they first invested in NBC Universal. For a while it was perceived as, you know, they got a great deal. But the world, as he noted, has changed and people are canceling cable. They're not watching, certainly not watching cable TV networks and broadcast is even struggling.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

I mean they almost bought this at the peak. Chris. Right.

[Chris Palmieri (Bloomberg News Senior Editor, Entertainment Team Leader)]

I think it'll probably spin off at a price that's higher than what they paid 15 years ago. But, but certainly for the exact same asset. Yeah, yeah, but I mean it's, it'll not. Well, no, they've spun off versa. It won't be the entire collection of assets. Yeah, but I think people are talking about 35, $40 billion valuation for these businesses. That's probably around what they paid. All in.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

All right, so then I don't know what happens. Does Netflix want it, Does Apple want it? Does Amazon want it? Like, is that kind of the next step here or does it go alone?

[Chris Palmieri (Bloomberg News Senior Editor, Entertainment Team Leader)]

Well, and we think, you know, Comcast bid on Warner Brothers late last year. It didn't win obviously, but we think that that was a catalyst here for what's going on. It showed a lot of interest in that business. The Warner Brothers business, as challenged as it is. And so will Netflix, which has sort of publicly admitted that they've whetted their appetite a little bit for mergers and acquisitions. Come in, will somebody else. I mean it's an easier bite to take, you know, than trying to acquire all of Comcast. Now there's, there's some issues here. If they do a spin off, they can't immediately do a deal for a couple years for to maintain their tax free nature. The, the Roberts family still has pretty much control of the business, about a third of the voting stock and will of NBC as well. So, so nobody's going to do a deal without Brian Roberts.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

So by spinning it off, it's not like that. They think it's worth nothing. They think there's value, it's better, but it's better as its own entity.

[Chris Palmieri (Bloomberg News Senior Editor, Entertainment Team Leader)]

It's, it's certainly not been working together. I mean if you look at Comcast stock price, it's, you know, it's still trading below it was in 2021. They've taken all these steps as I mentioned, they spun off the cable networks into Versant. They've been talking about their six big growth businesses which include wireless phone and theme parks and that, but it still hasn't worked. The Stock was down 22% through Friday's close. So this is an acknowledgment that they weren't getting any credit for this business. And as they said, they want to be flexible, they want to be able to do deals and move in this new media environment quicker.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Yeah, it's pretty wild here. I think anyone going back 15 years ago when we saw this tie up, people were concerned about antitrust because they controlled the pipes and they also controlled the content. And then there was the whole net neutrality debate a few years later and none of that really ended up coming to fruition. A big part of that had to do with really the rise of what we now consider the incumbents like the Netflixes of the world, the YouTube, the unbundling of, of cable. What was the, what was the biggest catalyst, Chris? Was it just the fact that, you know, people don't buy pay TV anymore?

[Chris Palmieri (Bloomberg News Senior Editor, Entertainment Team Leader)]

Yeah, I mean that, that is a huge problem for Comcast as a whole. I mean NBC, as big as it is, was really only a fraction of the overall enter and for a while it was just understood that cable TV was sinking because people are canceling that. But in recent years Comcast has been losing the Internet subscribers which was supposed to be the future. Everyone still needs Internet to get Netflix or whatever. And that's because the telecom companies have been coming on really strong with the wireless and fiber high speed Internet access. And so they've got to fix that. And this arguably, if you believe that a more focused business will try to figure out and be more creative ways to survive, then that's a good rationale for splitting these two businesses.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

But I mean even the traditional, the business that they're holding onto, that Comcast is holding onto as the core businesses is under attack, there's concern about, well, think about broadband for example. I mean it's no longer just the big fios and fiber and cable players, right? You have Starlink in there, you have T mobile in there offering competitive broadband. So they're kind of facing challenges on all fronts.

[Chris Palmieri (Bloomberg News Senior Editor, Entertainment Team Leader)]

Right. And that's part of their strategy is to really kind of be a lot nicer than the cable company was traditionally to consumers. You know, they're getting in these long term price guarantees, you know, without raising prices for a while, bundling everything in some cases of a free telephone, mobile phone line. So they're really trying to hang on to those customers because it's a lucrative business when it works. It's just right now the cable and broadband business is shrinking.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

All right, Chris, we need to leave it there. Our apologies. Chris Palmieri, Bloomberg News senior editor and entertainment team leader with the latest on Comcast.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily coming up after this.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

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[IBM Representative]

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[Podcast Host (Carol Massar or Tim Stannwek)]

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[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

As we mentioned, Carol's kind of all over this story. It's the leverage that helped fuel the US Stock rally now becoming an increasing source of unease. Matt Levine also out with a column. Yeah, his column today is all about that to the surge in market leverage. It stems in part from the massive growth of levered ETFs or levered exchange traded products, retail margin accounts, hedge fund deposits at, at prime brokers. It's stoking worries that it may exacerbate the next crisis. We got James Seifert with us, Bloomberg Intelligence senior research analyst. He joins us from our Princeton bureau. This is your, this is your world because you're, you're the ETF analyst, I could say about crypto to you too, I guess. I don't know if I'm going to talk about your book. I don't know if I can talk about your book. I just did. But you know, so this is, this is part of your world. This is not your entire world. But, but how would you explain sometimes we have folks on who have levered ETFs and have these, these products. How would you characterize the amount of money in these so called levered ETFs right now?

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

So we've had levered like broad based index ETFs going back to basically the financial crisis.

[Public.com Advertiser]

Right.

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

So those things have been around for a very long time. What's relatively new over the last four or so years is the single stock leverage ETFs and that's where a lot of the growth is coming from. But we're talking you know, 100, a couple hundred billion dollars in these things. Right. So the single stock ETFs alone or have crossed 50 billion now. So that's where all the growth is coming from. And most of these products, the way they get their exposure is via swaps at banks. And the way they work is they're going to give you daily exposure. So they reset every single day, which is the number one thing that you have to explain to people when they're talking about these things. These things reset every single day. They are built to be trading tools, not built to be things that you're

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

going to hold long term levered in either way. In other words, expecting big gains or expecting big sell offs.

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

Yes, exactly. So right now, so one of the things I do track is like the AUM and levered long ETFs versus leverage short. Yeah, going back to like pre2010, it was actually. There was actually more money in the short ETFs in the long. That hasn't been the case for a long time. But right now we're at like 15 to 16 times long. The size of AUM in the long ETFs versus the short. So 2x long, what have you. And then most of the short are either 1x inverse or 2x inverse.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

So what could possibly go wrong

[Public.com Legal/Disclosure Voice]

or

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

tell us why we should be concerned here?

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

Yeah, I mean there's ebb and flow with these things. Like right now we are at a record, but like it kind of goes up to some sort of peak and then obviously we have some sort of thing that washes things out, whether it's a subsection of the market or specific things related to an underlying etf. And then it comes down to a more normal level. The ratio has been in the single digits for a long time. Right now, like I said, we're up over 15. So at some point we're probably going to come and pull back. But like the real concern, I'm not like for my. It's really easy to sit here and it sounds really smart to be all doomer about like the potential concerns here. The real concerns is like in niche parts of this market where you have like smaller single stock ETFs that are 2x levered and they get too big for the underlying stock. We had that happen with MicroStrategy or MSTR in like October, November of 2024 where like the banks wouldn't even generate swaps anymore. So you have these mid cap or small cap ETFs that are single stock levered. That's where I worry that you could end up with the tail wagging the dog. But these large names, I mean these, these ETFs need to get absolutely massive to really start completely offsetting things. Now that's not to say they don't impact it, but it's not as scary yet just yet.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Is there, is there any reason, in your view, for people who are not exposed to these products to be concerned?

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

They definitely increase volatility no matter how you slice it. Like I said, the MSTR is a good example of a time where you had these single stock ETFs that were definitely increasing the volume. And Saylor, even at that time, was kind of leaning into it. He liked it because he viewed the volatility as a way to sell more, sell more expensive options on his product. And convertible notes. So I would say it's something to be aware of. But still a lot of the assets are mostly in the broad based things. 2 x s and P500 inverse qs. Those are the types of things where you see most of the money. Obviously there are extremely high asset single stock ETFs on things like Nvidia. And again, in really volatile days, those, those types of options where you're, you know, you're levered with a swap to a bank can impact things over a shorter time period. So it's something to be wary of. But like I said, the one thing I would be careful of is watching the size of some of these ETFs versus the underlying market cap of the underlying assets. But for the most part what we're seeing is that these are being used accurately, right? Like they're trading a lot. What you don't want to see is tons of money in there and like it's not turning over a lot. These things are turning over a ton. So people are mostly using them the way they're built to be used.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Well, are people using them or institutions using them?

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

I think it's both. It's largely a retail thing because you basically get institutional level cost for your leverage, right? There is a lot of cost for trading on margin. And when you're using these ETFs for the most part you're getting that institutional level margin quote, right? Like you're getting in and whatever the fees are. The other thing is for these issuers, they're charging over 1% annually. And when you're trading in and out of these things on a regular basis, you don't really care that much what the fee is. But you get a few billion into these and these issuers are sitting pretty, earning one to one and a half percent on annual aum.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Hey, one of the things I want to ask you about, James, and just looking at a story by our Christian Dass that's on the Bloomberg terminal and he talked to somebody, Andy Kent, it's a broker at Kite and Andy, saying this is a quote. Leverage has become one of the defining themes for investors. Margin debt is elevated. Borrowing across parts of the shadow banking system continues to expand. What insight can you give us into in terms of margin debt and any concerns we need to be there. And, and where's the oversight? Because I feel like we have learned a lot of things since the great financial crisis. There's feels like there's a lot more layers and protections. But again, nothing's 100% yeah, exactly.

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

I mean nothing is 100% and I'm not going to pretend to be a complete expert on exactly how much margin I read that exact piece you're talking about. The thing I come back to is like, like I said, when I'm looking at these ETFs specifically, for the most part the banks are kind of policing themselves. Like you go back to what I just spoke about with MSTR, the banks stopped allowing these, these ETFs to get any bigger because they felt it was too big for their books. The risk departments were putting a lid on these things. So you do see some like self policing at these banks because like I said, these are all swaps based. So what ended up happening is those ETFs have to go out and use options to try and do their best to give like a 2x type exposure. So for the most part there is some sort of self policing. We are at really high levels of margin debt. I'm not going to pretend to be the expert and like I said, it's really easy to call out these things and try to be early and call for the big short. But I think at the end of the day, for the most part these things are kind of being self contained. But like I said, it's something we're watching and we are paying attention to and we're concerned about and we are at extreme levels of the ratio between long to short. But there's a reason for that. The market has gone up a lot and that's what most of the, most of these assets have gone to. But the other thing I would say is I talked about behavior. We do see good behavior in these things because what you end up seeing is as these ask these ETFs go up, you tend to see outflows. So people are taking money.

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

Yeah.

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

And as these things go down, really bad. So if the market were to have a huge turn, you're going to see a lot of money pull into the, into the long ETFs and come out of the short. So people are taking to profits and they're buying bottoms, which is the exact opposite of how most of the other ETF industry works. Like people tend to come in as it goes up, but that's not how these products work.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Hey James, before we let you go, just 30 seconds. Space X shares are higher after being added to the Russell 1000. Space X bears are bracing 2 for billions in passive index fund buying. We could do an entire conversation about this stock being added and the rules there. But what's the smart view just in 30 seconds on the indexes or the passive money going in.

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

Yeah. I mean, the numbers you cited are correct. The Russell 1000 added them on Friday after the market close. I mean, the one thing I would say is that we have over 200 ETFs that already have of exposure to Space X despite it only being a couple of weeks old. Right. So this is one, this is the fastest we've ever seen an IPO be added to ETFs across the board. And that doesn't even include the leverage. Space X ETFs I'm talking about, I'm talking about things that bought the actual underlying stock. So it's, it's growing really quickly.

[Podcast Host (Carol Massar or Tim Stannwek)]

Is that good or bad?

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Because it creates kind of almost an artificial demand there real quickly.

[James Seifert (Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Research Analyst)]

Yeah. So the stock, the index ad, it does create a little bit of artificial demand, but The S&P 500 decided not to do it. So they're waiting 12 months. So NASDAQ and Russell 1000, they're big, but not like the S&P 510s of billions big.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

James Seifert, you rock. Bloomberg Intelligence senior research analyst joining us from Princeton.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily coming up after this.

[Public.com Advertiser]

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Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors, LLC. SEC registered advisor. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures Ryan

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities, so do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

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I'm the host of Irsay the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast, I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project, Hail Mary, Massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter (Audiobook Narrator)]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that that deeply, emotionally affected me. And I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah dude, me too.

[Public.com Legal/Disclosure Voice]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host (Carol Massar or Tim Stannwek)]

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Well, about 17 million Americans are considered credit invisible. That means having little to no credit credit history. And that no surprise, right? Can prevent consumers from reaching first time milestones. And that includes things like renting an apartment, Tim. Or buying a car. We get it.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Yeah. And just last month Bloomberg News reported on how Intuit credit karma is opening its sight to Americans who have no credit history allows them to take the first steps to building credit. It's also a conversation that's happening at the federal level, especially with regard to mortgages and the way that people are approved for mortgages.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Right.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

We keep talking about people who can't really access the financial system. Well, someone who's looking to help Americans actually build a credit profile is our next guest. It is Cynthia Chen. She's founder and CEO of Kickoff. She comes to US from San Francisco. Cynthia, great to have you here on Bloomberg Businessweek Daily. First of all, tell us about Kickoff launching back my understanding in 2018. It seems like it's a little bit of a personal story to your own understanding. When you came over from Beijing, your days at Columbia, you didn't have a credit history?

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

No, I did not. I came to the US when I was 17 years old as a first generation immigrant with no friends or family, no financial resources, and obviously no credit. That's why I realized at a very early age that if I wanted to rent my first apartment after college, buy my first car, or even pass my employer's background check, I would need to build credit.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

So then enter Kickoff. It's been a few years since you started the company. Explain exactly how it works because it has to do with people making on time payments and those payments being reported to the credit bureaus, which is really the basic way to. To build credit. How does it work?

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

Yes, the most important factor in the credit building process is positive payment history, and we deliver exactly that at Kickoff to millions of Americans. We offer Americans multiple ways of building credit. And our flagship product is an unsecured credit that allows the consumer to make a purchase on from our proprietary Kickoff Store and then pay off that purchase over a period of 12 months, starting from only $5 per month. And then as they make timely monthly payments, we report the payments to the three major credit bureaus, Equifax, Experian and TransUnion, thus helping them establish payment history. And we also help consumers build credit by reporting their rent payments and utilities payments to the credit bureaus so that they get credit for what they're already paying for.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

So essentially it's a couple of things. As you said, rent payments are tracked and so they get a track record there, but also the subscription that they pay to you guys, correct?

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

That is correct.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

So how do you know? I guess in particular rent.

[Podcast Host (Carol Massar or Tim Stannwek)]

Right.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Like these are things that people have to pay and so their ability to make those payments is a very consistent indicator. Important indicator, correct?

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

Yes, I agree. And data supports that.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

So tell us about the people on your platform. Like what happens, like what kind of credit do they ultimately get and at what cost do they get that credit?

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

Our customers usually come to us. One, their credit score is below 600 because you need at least that in order to get a car loan or a mortgage or even get approved for a rental apartment. And our customers typically will start at below 600. And after having used our products for 12 months and making timely on Time payments each month on average they can expect 86 point increase, which will get them to well north of 650, which is usually enough for getting into some of the mainstream credit products.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Why does a credit building product need to exist? Why can't the credit bureaus get the real time data when people are spending money and paying off their bills without sort of an intermediary, Right, or paying rent, Right?

[Ray Porter (Audiobook Narrator)]

Yeah,

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

that's a great question. The credit bureaus are keeping all the records of payment, but they do not process the payments. And there has to be a technology provider that will track consumers payment information and then verifies the data and then transform the data into a format that is consumable by the credit bureaus. A credit bureau cannot just take any data without any independent verification because sometimes the data can be of low quality or just can be inaccurate. So a trusted party needs to take care of that for the consumers. So that data reported is correct. Because if the consumers say rent payment is $2,000 a month and multiple companies are reporting that data to the credit bureau without the actual checks that verify the validity of such data, a consumer may appear in the credit report as someone who has $8,000 of rent payment, which will really hurt the consumer's ability to get any additional loan because of the perceived rent payment amount. So you do need this aggregator that will verify consumers lease make sure that the correct information is reflected. And also there's no duplication of reporting.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

So Cynthia, how do you measure success?

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

We measure success by looking at how our products have transformed the consumer's financial life. We track the number of mortgages and number of car loans our consumers have been able to get with our help in credit building. For example, we have helped about 80,000 consumers get their mortgage and realize their dream of ownership. And we have helped consumers get 800,000 of auto loans.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

So if you've got my understanding is 2 million users on the platform, and forgive me, I think I said you guys started in 2018, I believe it's 2019, so forgive me on that. But 2 million users, so what percentage of people on the platform actually ultimately build some credit history? And just got about 40 seconds here,

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

everyone will be able to build credit history because we offer a very full suite of products. There are so many ways a consumer can build credit on our platform. So I would say as long as we can verify our identity, you are like 100% sure to build some kind of credit history with the credit bureaus.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

And you did say, my understanding is that also that the subscription starts at $5. How far does how much does it go up to?

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

So we have three tiers, $5 per month, $20 per month and $35 per month.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Okay, and at $35 again, just got about 20 seconds. What do you get?

[Cynthia Chen (Founder and CEO of Kickoff)]

At $35 per month you will get a lot more features, for example privacy monitoring and protection. If your personal information SSN is exposed on the Internet, we will help you identify that and remove that.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Okay, very interesting. Glad we could check in with you. Cynthia Chen, she's founder and CEO of Kickoff, joining us from San Francisco.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily coming up after this.

[Public.com Advertiser]

Support for the show comes from public.com if you're actively involved in your portfolio, you probably catch yourself repeating the same actions. Buying the dip, manually sweeping idle cash, putting on a hedge on public. You can now create AI agents that handle all these tasks on your behalf. Just describe what you want to do in plain English like if the Vix hits 25, buy a put option on the S&P 500 or if my cash balance goes above $20,000, move the excess into my direct index. You approve the workflow and your agent handles the risk, monitoring the market, watching for your conditions and executing your strategies exactly as defined. An investing platform driven by your intent, not just your clicks. You can also get full read and write access to your account via the public API. Go to public.com market and fund your account in five minutes or less. That's public.com market paid for by Public

[Public.com Legal/Disclosure Voice]

Investing Brokerage Services by Open to the Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors LLC. SEC registered advisor complete disclosures available at public.com disclosures Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

[Chase Bank Advertiser]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail]

[Public.com Legal/Disclosure Voice]

hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm the host of Irsay the Audible and Iheart Audiobook Club. This week on the podcast I am sitting down with Ray Porter, the narrator of Andy Weir's audiobook project Hail Mary massive sci fi adventure about survival and science and what happens when you wake up alone very far from Earth.

[Ray Porter (Audiobook Narrator)]

I really had to make a decision because I caught myself getting that frog in my throat and starting to get teary as I'm narrating some of these sections and it's like, okay, yo, yo, yo, is this indulgent? And I really thought about it. I was like, no. At this point it would kind of be betraying the trust the author and the listener have in telling this story if I don't go through it. But there's places in this book that deeply, emotionally affected me and I left it on the mic. That's great because it served the story. People will say like, oh my God, I cried at the end. It's like, yeah, dude, me too.

[Public.com Legal/Disclosure Voice]

Listen to Irsay the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Podcast Host (Carol Massar or Tim Stannwek)]

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Now, Bloomberg News was reporting out earlier this week that artificial intelligence is pulling the global labor market in two opposite directions, rewarding companies that use AI to enhance human skills while leaving those who use it merely to cut costs further behind. This is according to a new study that's out from PricewaterhouseCooper.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

It's the PwC 2026 AI Jobs Barometer and it showed that roles requiring specific AI skills increased almost eight times faster than than the total job market in 2025. Such roles are also seeing higher wage growth, among other things.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Yeah, it's interesting. We are. It's something we talk about a lot. And with the jobs report on Thursday, it's certainly something we think about as well. Hey, we should point out working to raise awareness and take action on what's coming at workers. Eric Holcomb, he's the 51st governor of Indiana. He's co founder of Raise Us who, along with Gina Raimondo, who is the 40th US Secretary of Commerce and the 75th governor of Rhode island, launch Raise Us. It's a nonpartisan national organization. It's partnering with governors, employers, workers and training organizations to help the American workforce help really kind of them make a successful transition to an AI economy. I would largely argue that we're still trying to figure out what that economy looks like. He joins us from Brownsburg, Indiana. Governor Holcomb, great to have you here with Tim and myself. Welcome to Bloomberg again. First up, I want to take a step back if we could, and I'm curious about how you view the scope of AI related labor problems that your venture is looking to address. What challenges do you think the country is going to be facing and what challenges do you think the workforce will have to be facing in coming years and how acute will it get?

[Governor Eric Holcomb (Co-founder of Raise Us)]

Sure. Well, it's great to be with you, Carol and Tim, and with every technological advancement since. We're getting ready to celebrate our 250th birthday. And each and every one of those years we saw innovation and ingenuity and invention that has really propelled not just America, but the world for the good. And we're living in a time right now when the scale and pace of change, which can be very unsettling, lead to uncertainty, lead to thoughts of will I be left out? Will I be sidelined? Will I still have a place in the workforce? And we are at Raise Us. Gina Raimondo, myself and a big team of talented folks are out to make sure that the American worker knows that there are pathways that will scale up alongside them as the AI infused economy and quantum and robots over the coming decade really comes to bear. So it's all about being prepared for the moment right now and for tomorrow and making sure, as you said, Carol, that we're working with the right stakeholders, the decision makers that can allocate and steer resources, some of which will be ours, some of which will be states, some of which will be the employers, some of which will be the post secondary education and training providers. It's really getting folks around the table and saying here are the sectors, here are the skill sets that get you to a meaningful career. If you find yourself in a situation that's what you're looking for.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

Well, speaking of stakeholders, let's talk a little bit about the, the organizations and the companies too that are, that are partnering with your organization. They include companies such as Amazon, anthropic, Microsoft, the OpenAI Foundation. I mean, these are the companies that are bringing us into the, the AI revolution right now. Would it be fair for some people to view partnerships with those organizations maybe being skeptical to the work that the organization is doing?

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

A little bit like having the foxes in the hen house.

[Governor Eric Holcomb (Co-founder of Raise Us)]

Well, we operate independently and we're appreciative of everyone's support. I would just say this. I would look at it as if, you know, rewind the tape 50 years, 100 years. Pick the time in our history where large scale investors and inventors, be it electricity or the Internet, or rubber, you name it, which has changed kind of local economies. We want those folks that are creating that change to be part of the solution. Every sector out there is. It is tech, of course, but so is advanced manufacturing, so is life sciences, so is construction, so is hospitality and tourism. And that means that they're going to remain competitive as they continue to add these technological advancements into their business model. We just want to make sure that the American worker, that we have a people strategy. And to do that, we're going to need resources. So I would look at these supporters as people who want to be part of the solution to the inevitable technological gains that's going to lead to, in my opinion, mass new opportunities for people, if we have the right skill sets for those opportunities.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Governor Holcomb, just playing devil's advocate a little bit, though. Like, where are the labor unions as part of like kind of your board or. You know what I mean, those groups representing workers. And I think the point is these guys are companies that have a lot at stake in the AI, build and spend. And listen, to be fair, the horses left the barn. And if we don't keep up, the rest of the world well. So I understand their participation, but to kind of balance it out a little bit too, of more organizations that are going to be maybe impacted truly by AI already are.

[Governor Eric Holcomb (Co-founder of Raise Us)]

Well, I would say one of the unique things about Raise Us is our balanced approach where folks who have partnered with us across the, if you will, political spectrum understand and respect that we are nonpartisan, we are nonprofit, we are for public good, and they want to be a part of that. There's lots of things that we could disagree about, but we're focused on what we agree about, and that's building pathways, whether it's in the trades, whether it's, I call it the three Cs, the jobs that are going to be created out of AI, this infusion of AI and quantum and robots, jobs that revolve around control and creation and caring. Lots of unfilled jobs right now, and so be it. Aviation mechanics or pilots or nurses or teachers. So we have to make sure that there are pathways for each of these different pipelines. And having folks come from all over to help us in this effort really does speak to maybe we have this moment to have collective action really come to bear for a positive result.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Carol Massar)]

I'm glad you brought up some of the historical examples of real technological revolution and technological change. I'm curious based on the experience that you had as governor of Indiana, because Indiana is a state that went through this. Something more recent, and that would be NAFTA and the idea that we would see widespread job retraining efforts. When all this labor to make stuff went overseas, specifically to China, you know better than anyone that didn't materialize. What did. What did we learn as a country from the failure to retrain workers for that that we could then use moving forward?

[Governor Eric Holcomb (Co-founder of Raise Us)]

Amen. You are preaching at the baritone section of the choir, Tim. We learned that we have to build talent pipelines that are directed, that are focused to specific sectors that are in demand. There are a lot of different economic models out there, but supply and demand is time tested and will forever be true. And so we have to simply supply the workforce to meet the business demand. And with this new technology, it's creating more opportunity, more demand, more from people. And what we learned in the past is if we don't have the right folks at the table collectively and have the right support involved in the whole program, the process of retraining, then it'll all be for not and AI, as Carol, you mentioned, of course, our national security is at stake, our very way of life. I'm also very focused, as is Gina, as is raise us on someone's personal economic security that has so much to do with your place in society, your purpose, the dignity of work. I don't think that being on the sidelines is a long term healthy strategy. And so we're trying to get people who have exited the workforce, who are incumbent workers on the job and need to be reskilled or upskilled, or those entry level folks who are looking at this new economy saying, am I skilled and ready for the careers of today and tomorrow? And what we learned during nafta, if we want to onshore, if we want to bring those not just factories, but business, those supply chains back to America, it will be on the backs and the brains of the American workforce. And that's what we're getting at.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

I mean, how serious is this, do you think, Governor Holcomb, if we don't get this right, how serious is this for the US Workforce? And how fast will they feel it? I mean, some would say they're feeling it already.

[Governor Eric Holcomb (Co-founder of Raise Us)]

Well, some are. Just ask the people who are right. And so that makes, that makes it an urgent call to action. And, and so you're going to feel it now, you're going to feel it in one year, three years. Think about the combination when it's really synchronized and dialed in of AI quantum and robots. Now that calls for more humans. I believe that calls for a whole lot more human talent and labor. But for every person that feels that that has a ripple effect not just in their world or their family's world, but their community and their state and ultimately our nation. And as you said, failure is not an option when it comes to what's at stake here.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Hey, listen, just got about 30, 40 seconds. You're a Republican, Gina Raimondo is a Democrat. Good lesson on Congress coming together and working together. How do you think about that against our political divided political backdrop?

[Governor Eric Holcomb (Co-founder of Raise Us)]

And just quickly, we're not changing who we are. We've been pals for a number of years and we've both been very pragmatic and practical about how do we solve problems. And it's been a joy to be able to work with her on the day to day basis. Now, we used to work kind of afar from one another, but it's proof it can be done if you're focused on on solving a problem.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

Well, we've talked with her, we've talked with you. We look forward to continuing these conversations with both of you going forward and stay in touch and let us know how things are going.

[Governor Eric Holcomb (Co-founder of Raise Us)]

Absolutely. Thanks, Carolington.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host (Tim Stannwek)]

You bet. Governor Eric Holcomb, of course, the 51st governor of Indiana, co founder of Raise Us.

[Podcast Host (Carol Massar or Tim Stannwek)]

Joining us, this is the Bloomberg businessweek daily podcast available on Apple, Spotify, Spotify and anywhere else you get. Your podcasts listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm eastern on bloomberg.com the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live Every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.

[Ryan Reynolds (Mint Mobile Advertiser)]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do.

[Chase Bank Advertiser]

@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment of $45 for 3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full [e-mail] ag and so are

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[Public.com Legal/Disclosure Voice]

Hey everyone, it's Kal Penn. I'm inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with my podcast, Hearsay, The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Every episode, I nerd out with amazing guests and dive into the best new audiobooks available on Audible. It's the book club for your ears. Listen to Earsay, the Audible and iHeart audiobook club on the iHeartradio app or wherever you get your podcasts.