Dell Hikes Estimates on Strong AI Demand

Summary

Bloomberg Businessweek: "Dell Hikes Estimates on Strong AI Demand"

Air Date: October 7, 2025
Hosts: Carol Massar & Tim Stenovec

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Overview

This episode dives into Dell's sharply increased growth projections, fueled by booming demand for AI servers. The hosts explore what this means for Dell’s identity (AI company or not), the broader durability of AI-driven server demand, and competitive positioning. The conversation also touches on the growing economic influence of women (with Erin Harkless Moore of Pivotal Ventures), followed by an in-depth interview with Baltimore Mayor Brandon Scott on urban challenges and crime reduction. Investment strategy insights from Eric Clark (Alpha Brands ETF, Acuvest Global Advisors) round off the show.

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1. Dell’s Soaring Projections and AI Surge

[01:46–10:16]
Guest: Woo Jin Ho, Bloomberg Intelligence Senior Hardware & Networking Analyst

Main Discussion Points

• Dell's Growth Outlook

  • Dell shares rose up to 6% on news the company is doubling sales and profit growth estimates for the next two years, extending high projections through at least fiscal 2030. (01:46)
  • "The company roughly doubling its growth estimates for sales and profit... Demand for AI products will extend those higher projections at least through the 2030 fiscal year." – Tim Stenovec [01:50]
  • Current revenue guidance implies a jump from $20 billion in fiscal 2026 to about $45 billion by 2030.

• Is Dell an AI Company?

  • Carol Massar questions Dell's AI credentials; Woo Jin Ho settles it: “No.” [02:34]
  • "At the end of the day, they are a box maker that takes Nvidia chips and assembles everything together in a box.” – Woo Jin Ho [02:40]
  • Key players are the chipmakers (Nvidia, Broadcom) “selling picks and shovels; Dell is selling the cart.” – Woo Jin Ho [07:28]

• AI Server Demand

  • Growth in AI servers guiding Dell’s outlook: 20–25% in AI server business, “phenomenal growth considering how much it's grown over the past couple of years.” – Woo Jin Ho [02:54]
  • Durability of server revenue is strong, with new data centers appearing frequently, many outside traditional hyperscalers.

• Dell’s Sales Strength

  • Michael Dell is “probably one of the best salespeople out there from an IT hardware standpoint... exposed to every type of server deal globally, ex-China of course.” – Woo Jin Ho [04:46]
  • Major deals span 'neo clouds' and sovereign AI, including the high-profile TikTok deal.

• Competitive Landscape

  • Super Micro (“Supermicro”) is Dell’s top competitor, on pace for $33 billion in revenue, with about 70% from AI server sales. [05:29]
  • “White box” vendors like Foxconn and Quanta are seen as less of a threat due to time-to-market advantages and custom builds.

• Profitability Reality

  • AI servers only contribute about 5% to Dell’s operating profit—similar to selling PCs.
  • Dell’s margin structure differs from chipmakers with higher gross margins; Dell “is only selling the cart.” [07:47]

• Valuation and Investor Takeaways

  • Stock move justified by higher-than-expected AI server revenue and 15%+ EPS growth guidance.
  • “If they're able to execute on their margin targets... there are going to be a lot of satisfied investors.” – Woo Jin Ho [07:53]

Notable Quotes

• “They're very early on that S curve… The demand cycle is still fairly early.” – Woo Jin Ho [04:00]
• “AI servers only generate about 5% for Dell operation... It's almost comparable to selling a PC.” – Woo Jin Ho [07:00]

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2. The Increasing Economic Power of Women

[12:58–20:11]
Guest: Erin Harkless Moore, VP & Managing Director, Pivotal Ventures

Main Discussion Points

• Women Gaining Economic Power

  • By 2030, women are expected to control $34 trillion, or 38% of investable assets, nearly double from a decade prior. [12:58]
  • “Money talks. It gives you a seat at the table, whatever table that may be.” – Carol Massar [16:04]

• Pivotal Ventures' Mission

  • Founded by Melinda French Gates, focused on advancing social progress through investment—particularly in women-led funds, health, and caregiving. [13:59]
  • “She wanted women to be in a position to make decisions, control resources and capital...” – Erin Harkless Moore [13:59]

• Power Through Investing

  • “Women's power is... women in a position to make decisions.” – Erin Harkless Moore [15:10]
  • Numbers of women in VC firm partner roles have risen from 9% to 18% in the last decade, but room for improvement remains.

• Caregiving as Economic Opportunity

  • Care economy estimated at $648 billion (childcare, eldercare, health, aging-in-place solutions).
  • “We've ignored caregiving for too long. It's the most important work... Everyone’s a caregiver at some point.” – Erin Harkless Moore [17:38]

• Workplace Innovation Challenge

  • Pivotal and Aspen Institute launched a $60 million grant competition for workplace innovations affecting women. [18:48]

• Advice for Women

  • “Ask questions. Not being satisfied with the status quo... Whether it’s with your personal 401k, or institutional investing, take that tact as well.” – Erin Harkless Moore [19:40]

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3. Baltimore’s Crime Turnaround and Challenges

[22:35–33:00]
Guest: Mayor Brandon Scott (Baltimore)

Main Discussion Points

• Impact of Federal Shutdown

  • 12,000 Baltimore residents work for the federal government; economic anxiety is high amongst them. [23:28]

• Crime and Public Safety

  • Baltimore identified as the fourth most dangerous US city this summer, but significant change noted: “We have the fewest amount of homicides through any October 7th on record today. That is a big change.” – Mayor Brandon Scott [24:27]
  • Homicides down 30% from the previous year, following a “comprehensive violence prevention plan” started in 2021.

• Baltimore’s Comprehensive Plan

  • Identify potential victims/perpetrators of gun violence and focus interventions; offer paths to change or apply law enforcement as needed.
  • Expanded investment in community violence intervention, with former offenders now mediators:
    • “They were the problem and now they're part of the solution.” – Mayor Brandon Scott [25:54]

• Gun Trafficking & Law Enforcement

  • Focus on gun traffickers, working with local and federal partners.
  • Rejects National Guard federal intervention: “No. We've been very clear about that.” [26:55]
    • Previous National Guard deployments (2015) “didn’t help; it was one of the most violent years ever.” [28:56]

• Federal Funding Cuts

  • Program cuts (e.g., for youth assistance and violence intervention) after federal grants reduced; urges restoration of funding over troop deployments. [27:36]

• Economic Development

  • $4 billion invested in the city; $7 billion coming to downtown.
  • Major projects: T. Rowe Price, Under Armour headquarters, focus on permitting reforms, and tech/life sciences sector growth. [32:05]

• Political Perspective

  • “They have to let the folks that are closest to the problem be out front and part of the solution. Meaning they need to listen to mayors.” – Mayor Brandon Scott [29:59]
  • Mayor Scott intends to serve as long as Baltimore residents want (“this is my dream job as a child”). [31:33]

Notable Quotes

• “We have a long way to go. But... the conversation around Baltimore and violence has shifted significantly.” – Mayor Brandon Scott [24:27]
• “We know how to reduce violence in Baltimore... We have reduced violence to its lowest levels ever recorded on record.” – Mayor Brandon Scott [26:57]

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4. Navigating Markets, Brands, and Consumer Resilience

[36:04–44:07]
Guest: Eric Clark, Chief Investment Officer, Acuvest Global Advisors

Main Discussion Points

• Portfolio Strategy

  • Main holdings: Uber, Netflix, Amazon, Microsoft, TJX, Apple.
  • Increased turnover lately due to unique post-pandemic consumer trends and inflation.

• Consumer Shift: ‘Wants vs. Needs’ Investments

  • Staples like Walmart, TJX, Costco seen as essentials.
  • “Netflix and Spotify are pretty needs oriented. Nobody's going to get rid of those in an economic slowdown... If anything, you'll transfer to the ad tier.” – Eric Clark [39:25]
  • Services economy is “where the demand is; booking is still interesting.”

• Stock Moves & Opportunities

  • Lululemon (down 55%) and Chipotle seen as possible buys after steep declines; waiting for better entry points.
  • “The Athleisure story is still important. Nike I think is a little interesting—a slow but steady recovery.” – Eric Clark [41:40]

• Sector Rotations

  • Recently moved out of Coca-Cola, Progressive Insurance (defensive plays); overweighting cyclicals and market leaders.

• AI and Digital Advertising

  • Very bullish on Applovin despite regulatory volatility:
    • “Not a cheap stock but growing really well, generating a massive amount of free cash flow… expanding outside of video gaming with this AI algorithm.” – Eric Clark [43:28]

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Notable/Memorable Moments and Quotes

• Woo Jin Ho, on Dell’s identity:
  “Dell is only selling the cart.” [07:28]

• Erin Harkless Moore, on women’s financial empowerment:
  “Money talks. It gives you a seat at the table, whatever table that may be.” – paraphrased by Carol Massar [16:04]

• Mayor Brandon Scott, on community change:
  “They were the problem and now they're part of the solution.” [25:54]

• Eric Clark, on brand investing:
  “Netflix and Spotify are pretty needs oriented. Nobody's going to get rid of those in an economic slowdown...” [39:25]

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Timestamps of Key Segments

• Dell and AI Servers / Woo Jin Ho: [01:46–10:16]
• Women’s Investment Power / Erin Harkless Moore: [12:58–20:11]
• Baltimore Mayor Brandon Scott Interview: [22:35–33:00]
• Investment Strategies / Eric Clark: [36:04–44:07]

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This summary captures the episode’s essential insights, tone, and key discussions—with quotes and timestamps for easy navigation, giving non-listeners a thorough understanding of the episode’s substance and energy.

Transcript

[Carol Massar]

When we go into a new region, networks matter. Experience matters. For an inside look at the global connections that help businesses succeed, search for Turning Point Brought to you by Bloomberg Media Studios and HSBC Running small and medium sized businesses is hard work. Business owners need to be sure their ads are working just as hard as they do. Amazon Streaming TV ads makes your marketing dollar work harder With Amazon ads, trillions of insights help small and medium businesses reach the right customers that matter. Your ads will show up during the shows the people are actually watching, and measurement tools show you what's working the hardest. Gain the edge with Amazon ads Introducing.

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[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Announcer]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News.

[Carol Massar]

This.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Announcer]

Is Bloomberg businessweek Daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast with Carol Massar and Tim Stenbeck on Bloomberg Radio.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Dell shares rising as much as 6% earlier in the session. They've come back a bit 3.3% to the upside right now the company roughly doubling its growth estimates for sales and profit for the next two years. It said demand for AI products will extend those higher projections at least through the 2030 fiscal year. We've got a special treat in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Woo Jin Ho. He's Bloomberg Intelligence Senior hardware and networking analyst.

[Carol Massar]

He's usually in a box. Usually in a box. But he's at least in our box in our studio.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Yeah, it's really good to have him here in the studio. Studio usually out in Princeton, New Jersey, where Bloomberg Intelligence headquarters is. Okay, I'm putting Carol on the spot here.

[Carol Massar]

Oh, I know where you're going to go.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Carol's. Carol's not convinced Dell is an AI company. Should we think of Dell as an AI company?

[Woo Jin Ho]

No.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

All right. Boom.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Carol.

[Carol Massar]

I'm in good company. All right, so lay it out for us.

[Woo Jin Ho]

So, so look, they're, they're involved in AI servers at the end of the day they are a box maker that takes Nvidia chips and put assembles everything together in a box.

[Carol Massar]

This is the whole on premise thing.

[Woo Jin Ho]

Right, to help build up.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah.

[Woo Jin Ho]

Neo clouds, right. Like the core weaves and the N scales and the new business nebulouses in the world. Right. We got those companies and then also the sovereign AI, sovereign AI companies and just, just to break down their guidance, right. They guided to 7 to 9% up from 3 to 4% the last analyst day. What's really driving that is 20 to 25% growth in AI servers right now. This is phenomenal growth considering how much it's grown over the past couple of years. Yeah, right. And what it tells me is like, I know there's a lot of bubble concerns on the servers. It shows the durability of server revenue. To put it in context, their revenue guidance, the server guidance implies from 20 billion in fiscal 2026 to about 45 billion in 2030.

[Carol Massar]

That's amazing.

[Woo Jin Ho]

These are phenomenal numbers.

[Carol Massar]

That's off the chart. But why is that not a sign of bubble? Well, a bubble.

[Woo Jin Ho]

So there was a couple of things. I'm actually here from the analyst day, which is why, which is why I'm in New York.

[Carol Massar]

Right.

[Woo Jin Ho]

And what they're telling me is that look, they're very early on that S curve. So the demand cycle is still fairly, fairly, fairly early. Right. They're not really involved in the hyperscale cloud guys, but they are seeing new data centers cropping up every, every day, every week, every month and they have good visibility into sales at least for the next couple of years on what the order flow is right now. Think of Michael Dell, right? He's involved in every deal that's possibly out there. Right. So he's going to be exposed to every type of server deal globally. Ex China, of course. Right. So what do you mean?

[Carol Massar]

He's, he, he's involved in every idea like his equipment, you're saying his equipment.

[Woo Jin Ho]

Well, well, he's probably one of the best sales people that's out there for, from an IT hardware standpoint. Right. Let's, let's look at some of the involvement that he's been in recently. If we think about the, the TikTok deal that was announced. Right. He's involved there. He has global footprint in terms of what type of deals there are. He, he's probably, he's probably involved in some of that open air sales as well. Right. So he's got some, you know, some breadth and, and good exposure into what deals are Coming in. So he is going to. The company itself is going to be involved in all of those deals.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Biggest competitor, Lenovo, hp. Who, who is it?

[Woo Jin Ho]

You know we bring it up all the time. It's, it's biggest competitor right now. Super Micro.

[Carol Massar]

How. God. Remember we kind of stopped talking about them.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Yeah. How is Micro the biggest competitor?

[Woo Jin Ho]

Well, if we, if we look about, look at Supermicro right Now from an OEM standpoint, they're doing, they're on pace to about $33 billion in total revenue. I would say about 70% of those sales are going to be AI server related and that's going to be comparable to Dell. Right. And they're going to go neck and neck. Now the one company, the one group of company are the white box vendors. Think about the Foxconns of the world, the Quantas of the world. And they kind of dispelled them as a competitive threat to some degree because they can make custom servers number one and also help with the time to market. Right. These Neo clouds as well as the sovereigns, they actually want their AI servers now. Right. The sooner the better. And if they can get the GPU supply which is part of the components in delivery, they'll, they'll be able to win those deals.

[Tim Stenbeck]

What I'm waiting for you to be convinced that it's an AI company though, which says you're right, it's not an AI company.

[Carol Massar]

Not yet. Well, does it, does it or.

[Woo Jin Ho]

Well, it's a box maker.

[Carol Massar]

It's a box maker.

[Woo Jin Ho]

Right.

[Tim Stenbeck]

But it's at the intersection of all this technology.

[Woo Jin Ho]

That is correct.

[Tim Stenbeck]

It's a, it's a box provider for these companies. Help support every. Is every deal.

[Woo Jin Ho]

Well, so, so when I, when I think about their deal activity in general, right. From a profitability standpoint, AI servers only generate about 5% for Dell operation. Yeah, Dell and almost industry wide. Right. So from, from a profit standpoint, it's almost comparable to a PC selling a PC. Right. So what's really driving profitability is gross profit dollars and operating profit dollars to really drive up that EPS growth. I would call it an AI company. If we think about the gross margin profiles of someone like an Nvidia or Broadcom, the chip makers, they're actually selling the picks and shovels, right. Dell is only selling the cart.

[Carol Massar]

Hmm. Okay, good to know. So is the move up in the share price justified, you think?

[Woo Jin Ho]

Yeah, for, for a couple of things. AI server revenues are higher than expected. More importantly the eps growth of 15% much higher than expected. So if they're able to execute on their margin profile on their margin targets as well as the cash flow targets. There are going to be a lot of satisfied investors.

[Carol Massar]

Well, interesting to see. I mean the company reports November 25 after market save a little bit of time. Stocks up about 31% year we have.

[Woo Jin Ho]

From 3 quarter 3Q guidance. So that helps, right?

[Carol Massar]

Exactly. Exact. Always helps when you're here and to have you in studio. My God, what a gift.

[Woo Jin Ho]

No, pleasure's all mine.

[Carol Massar]

No, no. Oh, good stuff, good stuff.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Next time you're in the city, tell us what you tell us and you'll take us to dinner.

[Woo Jin Ho]

We'll. We'll do that.

[Tim Stenbeck]

How's that?

[Woo Jin Ho]

I'll bring some more tea.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Does that sound good?

[Woo Jin Ho]

I know you guys want the tea.

[Tim Stenbeck]

We do. We always want the tea.

[Carol Massar]

All right.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Love it.

[Carol Massar]

Gonna leave it there. Woojin. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Can I. Well, before you leave since we just have you. I mean we have been spending so much time this week looking at the spend and I really feel like it's been over the last few weeks when we continue to see all these deals or is it wise to be asking is it a bubble or when you do your channel checks, does this all seem legit in terms of the spend and earnings is going to show us whether the spend is paying off for some of the companies that are spending big time. But what's the smart. I don't know. You talking to the executives in these worlds.

[Woo Jin Ho]

Yeah. So. So, so when I look at it right now from. I think there's a disconnect in terms of the revenues generated from AI to the. The build out. Right. I know that the recent news flow has been, you know, look, the uptake hasn't been as strong as we had hoped. But if we, if we recall back a couple of weeks right ago when open, I talked about the token generation, the tokens consumed for. For these models. And I believe they had like some ridiculous number of like 100, like 10 billion or $100 billion in revenue. I mean we're starting to see consumer. I really start to ramp up. Right. So essentially what they're doing is they're building before they really start seeing that revenue slot machine happen.

[Carol Massar]

All right, good to know. Like against like all the stuff we've been talking about this week. Jinho, thank you again, so appreciate it. Senior hardware networking analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence right here in our interactive Broker studio.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily coming up after this.

[Carol Massar]

What's the secret to navigating uncharted waters in business. Meet Sami Sriram from Clearbot, a startup reshaping autonomous shipping. Hear her take on the real key to success frictionless user experiences that move your business forward. When you go into a new region, you need to make sure that the experience of using something new is good.

[Erin Harkless]

Because if not, then you make the bad first impression they never try it again. We are just trying to find the.

[Carol Massar]

Right partner, somebody who knows the right people to speak to. Somebody that is as invested as we are. For more on what it takes to unlock global growth, search for turning Point. That intention really matters. We want to build something that becomes the norm. Brought to you by Bloomberg Media Studios and HSBC Wherever your business takes you, HSBC can help.

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[Carol Massar]

As Tim mentioned just before, Charlie McKinsey expects women to control $34 trillion or roughly 38% of investable assets by 2030. That's close to double last year's total. We have definitely seen the figure grow over the last decade. Let's get to our weekly discussion on women money and we explore the economic implications of these changes and how to navigate them. There's so much going on. Great to have. Back with us, Erin Harkless, more. She's vice president, managing director of investments for Pivotal Ventures right here in studio. Welcome. It's so good to see you. How are you?

[Erin Harkless]

I'm doing great. Carol. Tim, thanks for having me on today.

[Carol Massar]

Thank you. Well, you know, this is a big issue. We've been talking about it for years, about the amount of money that's either shifting into the hands of women, what it means, what the differences are. I am curious and maybe not everybody's aware of all the work that you guys are doing. You have this very specific mission at Pivotal. Remind everybody what you're up to. And I am curious about what it means on a day to day basis what you're looking forward to invest in relationships and so on.

[Erin Harkless]

Yes, again. Well, thank you for having me. Pivotal is an organization founded by Melinda French gates in 2015. We are focused on advancing social progress. And specifically, when Melinda set up Pivotal, she realized that we would need multiple levers and tools to do that, including philanthropy and investment capital to get more power in the hands of more people, particularly women. So we invest in women led funds. We also invest in companies that are innovating in areas and themes like women's health and caregiving, where women carry a lot of burden and there's great opportunity to drive innovation and we think make a lot of money investing behind those themes as well. So that was the real impetus to found Pivotal for Melinda. She wanted women to be in a position to make decisions, control resources and capital and influence the decisions that are happening in our workplaces, in our communities and our schools and in our homes. And that's what we're setting out to do with our investments every day.

[Tim Stenbeck]

So when you identify those investments, when you identify where you want that money to go, what are the things that actually advance power and influence for women, in your view?

[Erin Harkless]

It's having women in positions to make decisions. So as we invest in funds that again, are predominantly women owned and led firms, they're investing across a spectrum of sectors, everything from AI enterprise, digital health, financial technology, fintech, the care economy, which is one of my favorite topics. I'm happy to talk a lot more about that too. But that's what women's power is for us, it's women, again, in a position to make these decisions. And it's also true for our direct investing as well. You know, many of the companies that we backed have female leaders and some do not. But we're just trying to find founders and innovators that are really solving problems for everyday Americans and everyday women.

[Carol Massar]

You know, I love that. And we want to get into some of the specifics in terms of where you guys are investing, but this idea of getting money in the hands of women, you know, how many times do we sit around this table and it doesn't matter what group we're talking about? Money talks.

[Erin Harkless]

Yes.

[Carol Massar]

It gives you a seat at the table, whatever table that may be. And it's just fascinating that here we are still in 2025 and it's still a struggle. But this idea that you guys are specifically targeting women and making sure that they are having the money they need to kind of grow their power, that's really important. It is.

[Erin Harkless]

It's incredibly important, Carol. And you know, the numbers have improved. About a Decade ago, about 9% of decision makers partners at US venture capital firms were women. That number has grown to about 18%. So we've made meaningful progress in the last 10 years, but we have a long way to go. And as you both shared in the opening, you know that 30 plus trillion dollars of assets that are held by baby boomers that are going to most of that transferring now to women. Women are going to want different things with their money. They want different advisors, they want products that meet their needs and solve some of the issues and problems that they're facing. And so we see again, a huge opportunity if we can change the face of who is making the decisions. That brings real power and real change.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Can we talk about caregiving for a minute?

[Carol Massar]

Yes.

[Tim Stenbeck]

It's an area of your focus. It's an area of focus at Pivotal Ventures. It's something that Carol and I think a lot about.

[Carol Massar]

Been involved in it.

[Erin Harkless]

Yes.

[Tim Stenbeck]

How do you, how do you make this work structurally? In an economy like ours, we have.

[Erin Harkless]

To start with the care infrastructure. We've supported research at Pivotal Ventures that sizes the care economy at $648 billion. I just, I'm going to pause and let that sink in every time I.

[Tim Stenbeck]

So that's for people's offspring, but also for people's parents and other loved ones they might be taking care of.

[Erin Harkless]

Exactly, Tim. It's the full spectrum. I describe it as end of life, back to beginning of life. Childcare, elder care, you know, we think of women's health solutions, solutions to help you optimize your home life, better to care and age in place. All of that is a part of that $648 billion market. And we've ignored caregiving for too long. It's the most important work. As you said, we all do. Everyone's a caregiver at some point in their lives. And as we thought about sectors or themes where women specifically carry a big burden, caregiving is one of them. And we want to fund the innovators and the founders that are building companies to address these solutions and, again, just make that loving work that we do easier.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, because you don't. I mean, the gaps that are out there is tremendous. And if you have money, it's a lot easier. If you don't, it's really, really a struggle. One thing I want to get to, and I think about how you guys are going about this. Last month, the Aspen Institute launched the Workplace Innovative Innovation. Excuse me, Workplace Innovation Now. Challenge Win Challenge. You guys are involved in it. A $60 million grant competition. What's the goal here? What's the mission?

[Erin Harkless]

The goal is to find better solutions for women in the workplace. We are thrilled to partner with the Aspen Institute in this initiative and looking at ways that we can improve the workplace environment for women around AI, around culture, around narrative. So there'll be more coming out in the weeks and months ahead. I encourage social entrepreneurs, philanthropists to take note and support that work alongside us, because we need better solutions for women in all facets of our lives.

[Carol Massar]

We've made progress, but we could do better.

[Erin Harkless]

We could do more.

[Carol Massar]

It's just, you know, this is. I feel like we have talked about women in money for a long time, women in power in a long time. And like you say, we've made progress, but, you know, if you could change one thing, we just got about 30 seconds that would really improve women, Money, power, like, the whole thing. What would it be?

[Erin Harkless]

I think it's owning, knowing what you own and asking questions, not being satisfied with the status quo. I think that's probably the biggest thing, you know, one thing that we try to do with our investment process and that our founder, Melinda Fridge Gates, has empowered us to do is to build a diligence process, a sourcing process that's more inclusive, that tries to build and find new patterns of success as investors. And I think that's one thing that I would encourage all of us, whether it's with your personal, your 401k, or if you're other institutional investors to take that tact as well.

[Carol Massar]

I like that ask questions. Erin Harkless Moore, VP Imaging Director of Investments for Pivotal Ventures Stay with us.

[Tim Stenbeck]

More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily coming up after this.

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You're thoughtful about where your money goes. You've got your core holdings, some recurring crypto buys, maybe even a few strategic options plays on the side. The point is, you're engaged with your investments and Public gets that. That's why they built an investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can put together a multi asset portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, bonds, options, crypto. It's all there plus an industry leading 3.8% APY high yield cash account. Switch to the platform built for those who take investing seriously. Go to public.com and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com paid for by Public Investing. All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. Brokerage services for U.S. listed registered securities options and bonds in a self directed account are offered by Public Investing Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Crypto trading provided by Backed Crypto Solutions LLC. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosure Introducing.

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The all new Adobe Acrobat Studio now with AI powered PDF spaces. Do more with PDFs than you ever thought possible. Need AI to turn 100 pages of market research into five insights with a click. Do that with Acrobat. Need templates for a sales proposal that'll close that deal? Do that with Acrobat. Need an AI specialist to tailor the tone of your market report to sound real smart in real time. Do that with the all new Adobe Acrobat Studio. Learn [e-mail] dothatwithacrobat so have you heard.

[Tim Stenbeck]

The story about the prescription plan? With savings automatically built in, it's where a family of any size can feel confident the cost of their medication won't hold them back. Go to CMK Co Stories to learn how CVS Caremark helps members save just by being members. That's CMK Co Stories.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Announcer]

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.

[Tim Stenbeck]

It is Bloomberg Businessweek Daily. We love checking in with mayors. They're the ones on the ground in cities and towns across the country. They're the ones who are making the decisions that affect the lives of people in their communities. And they hear from people in their communities when they're just walking down the street. Mayor Brandon Scott of Baltimore is one of those mayors and he joins us now in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. We should note that the city has received money from Bloomberg Philanthropies. It is the philanthropic arm of Bloomberg lp, the parent company of Bloomberg Radio. Mayor, welcome to the program reelected in 2024. You've been mayor since 2020. I want to start with the government shutdown because you are pretty close to Washington, D.C. you've got some folks in your community who certainly work there and obviously benefit from people working in the government. The president making comments earlier today that we can expect layoff details in four to five days. How's the shutdown affecting your constituents right now?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Well, there's a lot of my constituents are unease right when you're thinking about over 12,000 Baltimoreans work for the federal government, either directly or on contract. And then when you think about what that's going to mean for them and their families, they're just not at ease right now. And folks want to go to work. They want their government to be working. And of course, then all our residents who depend on programming and things that are just going to be out there that may not be having a direct impact as of yet by the shutdown, but as it continues and goes on, it would be.

[Carol Massar]

What do you consider, what do you consider your biggest problem in running the city? I mean, Baltimore, you know, we report about about it a lot. It is the fourth most dangerous according to U.S. news & World Report this summer, ranking Baltimore the fourth most dangerous city in the country behind Memphis, Oakland and St. Louis based on FBI data. They look at property crime. They look at murders per capita. But what are you as mayor, I'm sure there's a lot that's on your plate. What's top of mind?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Well, listen, violence is always top of mind. The reason why I got into office. And we understand that we have a long way to go. But I know you guys know here, Bloomberg Radio, the many years that we were number one on that list. And as you and I are talking today, I think it's the moat and the conversation around Baltimore and violence has shifted significantly. We have the fewest amount of homicides through any October 7th on record today. That is a big change. When I said in 2021 laying out a comprehensive violence prevention plan that we were going to reduce homicide by 15% from one year to the next, people literally laughed. Right now it's down 30% from last year. And last year was a record reduction for us. We're going to continue that.

[Carol Massar]

How did you do it?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

We did it throughout our comprehensive plan.

[Carol Massar]

Which is what.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Which is a bunch of things. One, first and foremost, we go and we identify those who are most likely to be the victim or perpetrator of gun violence. And we focus on them. We give them opportunities to change their life. And if not, we remove them via law enforcement. And that's how we're driving down violence. We're focusing on guns and the flow of guns into our city. Going after gun traffickers, those who are using guns, having arrested them at my direction, with the police department, turning them over to our state's attorney and our attorney general. We have historic levels of investment into community violence intervention where we have people who used to be on the other side of the law going out and preventing conflicts from escalating into violence. All of it. We're going after gun manufacturers, people who.

[Carol Massar]

Understand where the problem is and you're pulling them in to help you pull them in.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

They were the problem and now they're part of the solution. And what better way to do that?

[Carol Massar]

How do you get those people to do that?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Well, easy. First and foremost, many people who have made that mistake don't want people coming behind them to make that. And they know that we're growing this network of community violence intervention workers in our city. So the word is out that we want to give people a second chance to be a part of solving a problem that they once were causing.

[Tim Stenbeck]

The city, though in the crosshairs of the president. He called it a hellhole. Last month, UN Governor Wes Moore said that law enforcement from the state will patrol some areas. Has that begun?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Yeah, that's begun. And the governor is actually restarting something that was ended by his predecessor. Think about it like this. You would not find any other state police department in any state in this country not operating at all. And is only major city, that's Baltimore city was the only jurisdiction in Maryland that Maryland State Police did not operate in. The governor's restarting that. We're grateful for that support and to continue that work.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Are you open to the president sending National Guard troops to the city?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

No. We've been very clear about that.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Why not?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

We have. We know how to reduce violence in Baltimore. Baltimore. We have reduced violence to its lowest levels ever recorded on record, Even lower than the president's first term. The way that we have done it in partnership with our community, with our police department, with our state attorney, our attorney general and our federal law enforcement partners who work beside us each and every day. That's how we should continue that work. If the President wants to help us, he should restore grants and funding that was cut to organizations that help in that restore grants. I mean funding cut from the law enforcement agencies. This President has had the biggest reduction in funding for federal law enforcement agencies they should be restoring.

[Carol Massar]

What funding are you not getting as a result?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

We have not been directly impacted as of yet. It's our partner organizations like for example lifebridge Helps that runs the center for Hope. There's a part of our CVI network that has programming around CVI's community violence intervention. They lost a $500,000 grant, the same thing for living classrooms. That's big work that is going to be not happening. Whether it be a hospital based response, our community based responders. We need a victim assistance for young people, getting those young people the services they need that helps to prevent violence as well.

[Tim Stenbeck]

What will you do though if the President sends troops to.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Well, listen, we will be prepared to take whatever action that we can be illegal or others alongside our governor and our team based on when, what and how the President does something, if he does anything. But what we hope the President does is to continue to support those agents that are already working in our city and let them do their work and let the law enforcement partnership that has driven results this far carry us all the way.

[Tim Stenbeck]

But even though crime has improved, even though you shared statistics that show they're the best that they've ever been, like Carol mentioned, your city is still on a list that you don't want to be on. So I say to people out there who are saying, well, I would feel more comfortable if there were an increased law enforcement presence and that could include federal troops.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Well, we had the National Guard in Baltimore in 2015 following the unrest of Freddie Gray. It's one of the most violent years ever. It didn't help. Right? We have to remember this is not what those folks sign up to do. Allow those folks who sign up to go after a gun, traffickers, murderers, robbers, carjackings to do their work and allow the other people to do their work. And listen, there are other lists. You know, there are many of these lists. We were on some lists, on some lists we weren't on. The list that we want to be on is the list of who has the largest reductions. And you will be hard pressed to find a city in this country that's had a, a sustainable long term reduction like Baltimore's had From September of 2022, I mean 2023 until now.

[Carol Massar]

What do you See as what's wrong with politics today. What do you think is wrong with what some say is the Democratic Party not very clear in its mission and kind of stepping up?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Well, very simply, I think that.

[Carol Massar]

And I ask you because I think there's a lot. Forgive me, but there's a lot of folks who think there are politicians who've become career politicians and things haven't changed, and we need some change.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Well, I think that what folks have to understand is that for me, and I say this about the Democratic Party all the time, more recently, they have to let the folks that are closest to the problem be out front and part of the solution. Meaning they need to listen to mayors. The mayors are the ones that have to solve the problems. The mayors are the ones that have to meet the people in the grocery store. And we've proven in city after city after city, we know how to drive down crime. And you have to talk to people where they are. We have to get out of being up in the sky with pie in the sky, talk to people in real sense, real things that impact them and explain to them how these things are going to make their communities better.

[Carol Massar]

How long do you want to be mayor?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

I want to be mayor for as long as the residents of Baltimore will have me. This will be my second term, believe it or not. I've been in elected office since 2011. And this is. I've been in City hall since 2007.

[Tim Stenbeck]

And you are a young man right now.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Yes, a youngish man. 41. I'll be 40, 42 on my birthday. But this is about making my city better. I got into this service because I saw someone get shot at.7 years old, and no one cared. And wanting to drive down that violence, to have vacant housing be at its lowest point in my lifetime in Baltimore. Something we're proud of, but we're not celebrating. We have a lot of work to do, and we're going to do it.

[Carol Massar]

The reason I go back there is I do think we talk about this in media, that there isn't a lot of, you know, local publications anymore. A lot of newspapers have shut down. And so we get kind of the high and the.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Yeah, we don't need that.

[Carol Massar]

That view, but we don't. This is why we love talking to mayors. But often people are mayors, and then they move up and they go to governor and then they go to Congress and stuff. So I'm just curious, how long do you want to stay on that local level?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Well, everyone knows the end game. Everyone knows I don't want to be governor. And everyone in Baltimore knows that I'll be quite okay if being the mayor of Baltimore is the last elected office I ever had. This is my dream job as a child. I will hold it as long as the residents of Baltimore will allow me to do so. As long as I'm living within term limits.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Before we let you go because you have a train to catch to get home.

[Carol Massar]

Yes.

[Tim Stenbeck]

And we want to be respectful of your time. The attracting and retaining business to the city, we know that's a economic development is a way to improve cities. What are you doing right now to say Baltimore is open for business?

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Yeah, I think that you have to understand we had a $4 billion of investment into Baltimore. We have $7 billion investment coming to downtown Baltimore. Whether it's T. Rowe Price's new headquarters or Under Armour's new headquarters. Everyone knows throughout downtown Rise plan We are open for business in the city of Baltimore. Reforming our permit process and reforming our zoning code. All the things that we need to do to help grow business in Baltimore, especially in the tech and life sciences industry that has taken off out of Hopkins and out of the University of Maryland, putting a lot of money and a lot of tech businesses out into the ether.

[Carol Massar]

Any signs that we're headed towards a.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Recession, well, we'll see. We know that with tariffs and all the other things going, we just have to all be mindful of what's happening and prepare as we're doing our budgets. I've been talking to my brother and sister mayors to make sure that we're being responsible right now because we do not know yet what is to come.

[Carol Massar]

So appreciate it. Go for your train.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Yes, ma'.

[Woo Jin Ho]

Am.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Thank you very much.

[Carol Massar]

He's, he's running for that train. Be well, be well, be safe. Brandon Scott, the Baltimore mayor joining us here in our interactive broker studio. As Tim mentioned earlier, the city has definitely received money from Bloomberg Philanthropies, which is of course owned by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Business Week Daily coming up after this.

[Public Investing Announcer]

You're thoughtful about where your money goes. You've got your core holdings, some recurring crypto buys, maybe even a few strategic options plays on the side. The point is you're engaged with your investments and public gets that. That's why they built an investing platform for those who take it seriously. On public, you can put together a multi asset portfolio for the long haul. Stocks, bonds, options, crypto, it's all there, plus an industry leading 3.8% APY high yield cash account. Switch to the platform built for those who take investing seriously. Go to public.com and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com paid for by Public Investing. All investing involves the risk of loss, including loss of principal. Brokerage services for U.S. listed registered securities options and bonds in a self directed account are offered by Public Investing, Inc. Member FINRA and SIPC. Crypto trading provided by Backed Crypto Solutions, LLC. Complete disclosures available at public.com disclosure Introducing.

[Adobe Acrobat Announcer]

The all new Adobe Acrobat Studio now with AI powered PDF spaces do more with PDFs than you ever thought possible. Need AI to turn 100 pages of market research into 5 insights with a click. Do that with Acrobat. Need templates for a sales proposal that'll close that deal. Do that with Acrobat. Need an AI specialist to tailor the tone of your market report to sound real smart in real time. Do that with the all new Adobe Acrobat Studio. Learn [e-mail] do that with Acrobat so.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Have you heard the story about the prescription plan? With savings automatically built in, it's where a family of any size can feel confident the cost of their medication won't hold them back. Go to CMK Co Stories to learn how CBS Caremark helps members save just by being members. That's CMK Co Stories.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Announcer]

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.

[Woo Jin Ho]

How about you let me drive?

[Carol Massar]

Oh no, no, no, no.

[Tim Stenbeck]

This is not a toy.

[Carol Massar]

Who's gonna drive your time? Honey, please.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

I'll do the driving. Drive on.

[Carol Massar]

Excuse me, I want to drive.

[Erin Harkless]

It's the question that drives us.

[Tim Stenbeck]

This is the drive to the close.

[Carol Massar]

The funky music will drive us till.

[Tim Stenbeck]

The dawn on Bloomberg Radio.

[Carol Massar]

Everybody, we got about 18 minutes to go until we wrap up the trade on this Tuesday. Carol Massar, Tim Stanwick live in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio. Right now we've got 317 names to the downside on the S&P 500186 actually gaining ground. But as you heard from Charlie and Bill Maloney, you are seeing stocks kind of stay down for most of the day. Just bouncing a lot bouncing around our worst level.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Not every day can be a record day.

[Carol Massar]

Nope. It cannot. Right? That doesn't necessarily make a market.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Doesn't. But it kind of felt like for the last week that's what we saw.

[Carol Massar]

I'm curious to see what Eric Clark has to say. He's Chief Investment Officer of Acuvest Global advisors. They've got 1.2 billion in assets under management. He manages the Alpha brands, consumption leaders ETF began trading this year. It's up about 2% in the past month. Top holdings include Uber, Netflix, Amazon, Microsoft, tjx, Apple and more. It sounds like, sounds like my life. All those names.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Last time we saw Eric, he was working hard.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah.

[Tim Stenbeck]

In Huntington Beach, California, just as we were working hard at the Future Proof Conference. California, Enjoying the sun. Enjoying the beach.

[Carol Massar]

Yes.

[Tim Stenbeck]

And talking all these companies.

[Carol Massar]

Anybody who's out there, if you're gonna do a financial conference, we love you. We love going, but do it on a beach.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Now he's working hard in San Diego, so it's all good.

[Carol Massar]

All right. Hey, listen, good to have you here.

[Erin Harkless]

Eric.

[Carol Massar]

How are you?

[Eric Clark]

I'm great. I'm great. Well, at least we're not baking in the sun in Huntington.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Oh, it's okay. We're going to be thinking when January rolls around, we'll be looking longingly on that early September day.

[Carol Massar]

The control rooms like, oh, yeah, too bad you were baking in the sun. Hey, talk to us about this market environment. Remind us to like you. You are known for investing in these well known brands. How much movement do you do? Remind us when it comes to buying, selling or kind of parking it and let it just kind of ride for a while.

[Eric Clark]

Yeah, I mean, you know, the goal isn't to turn over the portfolio, but you know, since the pandemic, the, the consumer spending trends and how we've dealt with inflation, you know, it's, it's been a unique environment for the consumer trying to navigate all those things. So turnover's been a little bit higher because consumer spending and the trends have been a little bit more unique. Usually, you know, you want to have exposure to really important spending themes like apparel and travel and goods and the service economy. But it's just, you know, it's, it's been a wild ride since the, since the pandemic and then with the tariffs and changing supply chain. So it's, you know, the portfolio is very kind of what I consider to be very stable, predictable, good subscription revenue in important categories that we either need or we love. And so it's a little bit more concentrated than maybe normal. But, you know, if we see the economy accelerating in 2026, we'll probably want to have a little bit more exposure to some areas of spending that we haven't wanted to have exposure to in 2025.

[Carol Massar]

Jamie Dimon said consumers okay now, but recession could happen in 2026.

[Tim Stenbeck]

And he said, we talked about, he said that earlier today, said the bank will be fine, but he would feel for customers. Of course. Yeah, it's not something he worries about right now. If, if that were to happen and we would look at your portfolio and say, okay, there are some names in here that are wants and there are some names in here that are needs. What are the needs and what are the wants?

[Carol Massar]

TJX is a necessity. Necessity.

[Eric Clark]

Tjx? Yeah. Walmart, TJ Maxx, Costco. I mean I would even argue Netflix and Spotify are pretty needs oriented. Nobody's going to get rid of those in, in a, in an economic slowdown. If anything, you'll transfer your, you're paid to, over to the ad tier. So you know, from a wants. I mean we still, gosh, we still want to go to concerts and live events. The, you know, and Live Nation stock has pulled back. We've had a little bit of a pullback here, kind of a silent pullback with, with tech kind of doing all the heavy lifting. There has certainly been some pullbacks since the middle of September. So you know, there's some good opportunities for people that aren't just looking at the index level. But I mean, Intuit's another good example. I mean we got to do our taxes. If you're a small business, you got to continue to market and try to generate new clients and engage those clients. So there's a lot of great brands deploying AI that are going to really see the benefit of that over the next couple of years. And everybody just wants semiconductors right now. I understand, but there's a lot to like about this market and we just don't see a recession. It's always possible. We just don't see it. The labor market obviously is the big, the big worry for everybody.

[Carol Massar]

Well, is there anything that's a new ad or is there anything that you've already gotten rid of, like tell us about in terms of movement or adding to positions? It looks like you're pretty consistent on some of these big names, the amount of exposure that you have.

[Eric Clark]

Yeah, we are, we actually have been out of the food names. The quick service Chipotle down here I think is pretty intriguing, you know, for a 12 month period. You know, maybe they have a little softness in the, in the current quarter, but we still think this, the stock has derated pretty, pretty immensely. I'm even looking at Lulu. I don't want to get in there just yet, but I think there's some interesting retailers that have been left for dead that are really starting to look intriguing. And so if that, that's probably.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Why is Lulu intriguing to you?

[Carol Massar]

What's down 55%?

[Tim Stenbeck]

Why is Lulu intriguing to you? Isn't it getting taken to lunch by your neighbor over there in San Diego? Viori.

[Eric Clark]

Viori. Yeah. You know, it would not shock me if the CEO of Lulu goes. I think he's made a, he's made some pretty bad missteps. And I says it wouldn't shock me if an act, if an activist gets involved in there. So I, that's why I haven't, you know, we haven't, we haven't bought it yet. We, we owned it, gosh, you know, over a year ago at much higher prices. So the Athleisure story is still important. Nike, I think, is a little interesting. I mean, you know, it's a slow but steady recovery. So that one's a little bit interesting. On a dip after earnings. But, you know, the service economy is just much more intriguing. It's, it's, it's where the demand is. I think booking is still interesting. Goods right now are just a bit of a struggle because we're just going to start feeling the impact of higher prices from tariffs heading into holiday shopping.

[Tim Stenbeck]

What have you gotten out of?

[Eric Clark]

We've gotten out of some of the defensives like Coca Cola, Progressive Insurance. It's just right now people just don't want defense in particular. They'll want it again. These are great, stable businesses. But we've just added more to the, you know, to the more cyclical side of the, the ledger in favor of Staples. So we're, we're still a little bit overweight, Staples, but that's strictly through Wal Mart and Costco.

[Carol Massar]

You own Applovin. And that has certainly been in the news in the last 24 hours, down about, down 14%. Yesterday we see a bounce back. Citi actually coming out and saying that they would be buyers on any weakness. They say the regulator has not officially accused Applovin of wrongdoing. There's more in their call. So we are seeing Applovin come back a little bit. Are you holding on to your position? Anything you're doing there?

[Eric Clark]

No, absolutely. I want, if I could have bought it yesterday, that would have been, that would have been ideal. We just didn't get a chance before the close. It's amazing how massive companies can move. Witness Oracle today. In a very short period of time. It just, you know, it reminds us that algorithms drive everything. But we still love Applovin. Not a cheap stock but growing really well, generating a massive amount of free cash flow, super high revenue to employee driver of the digital advertising world. They're expanding outside of video gaming with this AI algorithm. So we love the stock and we just don't.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Eric sorry, we got to run big. Thank you. Rational Dynamic Brands this is the Bloomberg.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Announcer]

Businessweek daily podcast available on Apple, Spotify and anywhere else you get. Your podcasts listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live Every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile.

[Carol Massar]

Now I don't know if you've heard, but Mint's Premium Wireless is $15 a month. But I'd like to offer one other perk.

[Public Investing Announcer]

We have no stores.

[Carol Massar]

That means no small talk.

[Public Investing Announcer]

Crazy weather we're having. No, it's not.

[Woo Jin Ho]

It's just weather. It is an introvert's dream.

[Mayor Brandon Scott]

Give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront payment.

[Carol Massar]

Of $45 for a 3 month plan.

[Adobe Acrobat Announcer]

$15 per month equivalent required.

[Carol Massar]

New customer offer first 3 months only.

[Adobe Acrobat Announcer]

Then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Woo Jin Ho]

See mint mobile.com Bloomberg Screen time is.

[Carol Massar]

Where creators and capital connect.

[Eric Clark]

My name is Lucas Shaw and I'll.

[Woo Jin Ho]

Be interviewing industry leaders like Warner Bros. Pam abdy and Mike DeLuca, Instagram's Adam Masseri and director Ryan Coogler. Screen Time is where you can go.

[Eric Clark]

Behind the scenes to hear about the strategies and stories powering what the world watches next. Join us live in Los Angeles October 8th and 9th. You can get your [e-mail] screentime and thanks to our presenting sponsors AWS and Coriant, as well as the supporting sponsors Nielsen Turkish Airlines and Weil, Gotchael and Manjes.