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Fred Thiel
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Narrator/Announcer
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- [02:09]
Podcast Host/Announcer
Is Bloomberg businessweek Daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast with Carol Massar and Tim Stanweck on Bloomberg Radio.
- [02:32]
Interviewer/Reporter
Elon Musk no longer the world's richest person, he's been bumped by Oracle's Larry Ellison. That's after the company's reported quarterly results and now we're hearing this news. So Christine Oram, Wealth America's Team Leader for Bloomberg News, thank you for joining us. So you're sitting here listening to us talk about this and then we had earnings. So how much did the Ellison's fortune soar after that?
- [02:55]
Christine Oram
Yeah, so this has been quite the day for Oracle, as Caroline was just saying. So Ellison earlier today when the stock was at its peak, it's pared some of those gains now, but he was up more than $100 billion and that was the increase to his fortune, not his total fortune. That got him close to $400 billion. At one point he was at about $394 billion, putting him in first place on the Bloomberg Billionaires Index for the first time, also putting him ahead of Elon Musk for the first time. So this is very notable. Musk has been in first place for. And of course we had the news last week of Musk getting his $1 trillion pay package. So this may be a short lived first place for Ellison. Musk stands to make a lot of money over the coming years. That could potentially make him the first trillionaire. But for now, Larry Ellison is in first place.
- [03:43]
Jess Minton
And then looking at Tesla's stock being down over 10% this year, and obviously there's different dynamics where we've seen it pop and then pull back. But how does that fit in when it comes to Ellison versus what's going on with. You were just talking about with Elon Musk versus also JE Bezos, obviously the poster child when it comes to Amazon.
- [04:01]
Christine Oram
Yeah, no, it's a very good question because I think what you're seeing here is the divergence between the companies that are exposed to AI, as Caroline was just saying, and those that are struggling a little bit in that space. And of course Musk has made a big deal about all of the inroads that Tesla is making in AI and how he wants that to be kind of like one of the main drivers of the company going forward. But so far the market doesn't really seem to be buying that. So Tesla hasn't been performing super well. And of course there have been a lot of other issues there around his political involvement and other things too that have weighed on the stock. But despite that fact, Musk had clung tenaciously to the number one spot for quite a while. Just largely actually not because of Tesla, because of all of his other ventures. Space X, Super Valuable Company X I X, formerly Twitter, all bolster his fortune. But it seems like as of right now, that isn't enough. But again, with that massive pay package that the board has promised him, if that passes muster, that could change very quickly.
- [05:02]
Interviewer/Reporter
Before you go. Quick question. So can you break down that battle back and forth for that top? So, I mean, not just Bezos, but other, you know, folks have been up at that top.
- [05:09]
Christine Oram
Yeah, actually. So Ellison just surpassed Mark Zuckerberg in July, so only a couple of months ago to move into second place. Zuckerberg has fallen a little bit with Metta. Bezos and Zuckerberg have kind of been jockeying back and forth. But I think what this reflects because, you know, earlier this year, I think Ellison was in fourth or maybe even fifth, fifth place. And how quickly he's climbed the ranks just reflects how, how much Oracle has been able to sort of glom onto that AI narrative, how successful it's been in selling that narrative to shareholders. And we're seeing that in the 35% share drum today.
- [05:45]
Jess Minton
All right, Christine, always great having you with us. Christine Oram, obviously, Bloomberg News Wealth America's team leader joining us here in the Bloomberg Business Week studio on Larry Ellison surpassing Elon Musk.
- [05:58]
Podcast Host/Announcer
Stay with us.
- [05:58]
Michael McKee
More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily.
- [06:00]
Podcast Host/Announcer
Coming up after this.
- [06:05]
Narrator/Announcer
Pinpointing the genetic changes that predispose us to disease, Identifying the roots of mental illness, treating congenital anomalies even before birth. At Boston Children's Hospital, we're investing in children's health today to ensure the well being of adults tomorrow. As home to the world's largest pediatric research enterprise and more than 260 specialty programs, Boston Children's is where the world comes. For answers. Learn more@bostonchildrens.org.
- [06:36]
Podcast Host/Announcer
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Elizabeth Rettner
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- [07:41]
Narrator/Announcer
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- [08:05]
Podcast Host/Announcer
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.
- [08:20]
Interviewer/Reporter
This is a day after the BL, they published a preliminary revision to annual payrolls data. Now we're getting word that the labor inspector general initiating a review of challenges at the bls. On top of that, we have another legal move in the president's quest to remove Fed Governor Lisa Cook. A lot going on. We want to bring in Michael McKee, his international economics and policy correspondent for Bloomberg TV and radio. So I want to start with Lisa Cook because there's been so much back and forth, it's hard to keep up with it. Michael McKee, so does this latest move, does it remove Cook from her position before a Fed decision in a week from today, or what does it mean?
- [08:57]
Michael McKee
No, it keeps her in that position, in the position. But what the administration has filed a notice of appeal this afternoon. So they're going to go to the Circuit Court of appeals in D.C. we don't know the speed with which they are going to file their documents and ask for a hearing. But if they move very quickly, they could, in theory, if the court agrees, block her before we get to that meeting. But it's getting very tight for something like that. So I suspect she'll probably be there.
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Jess Minton
Walk us through any sort of precedent when it comes to something like this with a Federal Reserve governor. But then also is there just cause there when it comes to the president?
- [09:37]
Michael McKee
Well, it's funny because you mentioned those two things. This is the point that the judge made, is that nobody has ever tried to fire someone at the Fed for cause. And so she had to decide what cause means and whether or not the president's accusations rise to cause. And basically she said that the historical record shows that cause basically relates to things that happen in your job while you're doing it, and that if she did something that she shouldn't have done before she came to to office, and that was years ago and people knew about it then, it wouldn't rise to cause. And that's one of the reasons that she said that Cook could stay in her office for now.
- [10:25]
Interviewer/Reporter
So what does it mean for time wise? I mean we're today a week away from, from a Fed decision. What does this mean?
- [10:32]
Michael McKee
Well, the administration is going to have to move fast to get filed and they will have to get a three judge panel that would hear it quickly enough. And they'd have to make the case that there would be some sort of harm to the government if she were allowed to vote at this meeting because they can make the case that there's harm to the government if she remains on the job without a determined time frame. They could, you know, let this could play out over a week or so. And we've seen that with other people that the president has tried to fire. But to get her out before the meeting would take a lot because it doesn't seem to rise to the necessity of having judges work through the weekend.
- [11:15]
Jess Minton
Is there an indication about a timetable when you're talking about over the next week or so, how long could this possibly drag out?
- [11:22]
Michael McKee
Oh, it's going to drag out for quite some time because whatever happens in the appeals court, it will probably go to the Supreme Court because this is a unique case. Nobody has ever tried to fire somebody for cause and the definition of cause, et cetera. So the Supreme Court is starting to back up with Trump problem cases. They just took on the tariff case on an expedited basis. So they would have to have a hearing for that in November and then try to make a decision maybe by the first of the year if it goes to the Supreme Court. And in this case, it doesn't seem to be the kind of thing that's going to set the world afire. So we could go on the regular docket and then we don't get a decision until next June. So then the question becomes does she stay on the the Fed until that time? And that'll depend both on the appeals court. And then the Supreme Court could also issue a stay and kick her out as they did with other people that Trump tried to tried to fire. But again, this is an unusual case because the Supreme Court's given them something of a carve out.
- [12:26]
Interviewer/Reporter
Now if we can we get into the, the labor inspector general and this report that they're apparently doing review of the, the challenges at the bls. What are these challenges?
- [12:36]
Michael McKee
Interesting language that they used because one is tempted to read it after everything that the administration has done. As we're going to look at ways to find that you guys did something wrong and get rid of you. But it could be that let me put it this way. I have said that the if, if you were a normal administration. What you would say is there seem to be issues with getting the data as accurate as it can be because you're short of money and short of personnel. So let's sit down and figure out how we can address those challenges, which is not what they did. But one could read the inspector general as stepping in and saying, well, maybe I'll prepare a report that says you can't do all this with the resources that you've been given. I suspect, though, that it is probably an effort to, because Trump had fired all the inspectors general and appointed new ones, is an effort to find out something that they are doing wrong and make a case for further dismissals, which would only put the farther behind the eight ball. Now, this is not a, the kind of thing that's going to get a lot of attention right away and it may take some time. And so it's not an imminent threat to the bls, but it is another cloud on the horizon.
- [13:52]
Jess Minton
So how does Steven Miron ultimately fit into all of this?
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Michael McKee
Well, he fits into it because we are reporting based on people familiar that he will get a vote on the floor on Monday. It's, it's not easy, given the Senate rules to do something that fast. But the president said do it, so they are going to do it. And then he can walk in the next day and, you know, somewhere in between the vote and the time the meeting starts, somebody will swear him in and he'll participate in the meeting. It'll be an unusual situation. He would have had no preparation other than what he can do at the cea, but he wouldn't have access to the Fed staff or anything to prepare for the meeting. So other than advocating for maybe a 50 basis point cut, if we assume the Fed's going to do 25, it's hard to see how much he would contribute. But there's a good chance that he will be there. He and Lisa Cook will probably be there.
- [14:48]
Interviewer/Reporter
Then what's a chance that he would be nominated for a full term that hasn't been.
- [14:52]
Michael McKee
Well, that's, that's an open question. The president has sort of left that open in whether it's a tryout for the job or whether he's just keeping the seat warm. So he could appoint someone else to be chairman. If another seat doesn't open up, if Cook isn't gone or if Jay Powell decides to stay on, then whoever he wants as chairman, unless it's somebody who's already on the board, he would have to have an open seat. So then Steve Myron would go back to the CEA, it seems. All right.
- [15:22]
Jess Minton
Michael McKee, always a pleasure when you're joining us on Bloomberg Television and Radio, international economics and policy correspondent at Bloomberg Television and Radio.
- [15:32]
Podcast Host/Announcer
This this is the Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2pm Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 11:30.
- [15:49]
Jess Minton
Lisa, we were talking about earlier, there's so much to discuss when you're talking about the economic front and thinking about when the labor inspector general initiating a review of those BLS challenges. Obviously, producer prices coming in at the lowest level since April ahead of that CPI data. So many different places to start. But let's bring in our next guest who can break this down for us and give us more of her purview. Elizabeth Rettner, senior economist at Nerd Wallet, joining us from Durham, North Carolina. Elizabeth, it's great having you with us. I'll start off first when it comes to those BLS revisions yesterday. And then of course, on top of the latest news today that the labor inspector general is initiating that review of that walk us through, kind of how do you view this from your purview as an economist and what does this ultimately mean and how long could this take?
- [16:37]
Elizabeth Rettner
Hey, well, thanks for having me. First of all, I'm excited to be here and chat with you guys. So, you know, I think I reiterate this a lot to folks, is we can't think of revisions as corrections. Revisions are part of the statistical process. Various revisions happen throughout the year. They happen monthly to the jobs report. As you know, they've been making headlines over the past few months as well. So this preliminary benchmarking estimate that came out yesterday, the revisions were large. We anticipated that. And there's several reasons for that. Primarily, low response rates to the BLS is one contributing factor. Another contributing factor, though, is we often see large revisions when the economy is in transition. So if it is changing direction, if it's growing rapidly or if it's decelerating, a lot of times when you take sample based data, which is the jobs report, and you level it up or you try to make inferences about the entire population, that gets a little more tricky when the economy is changing. And so I think that is one of the big reasons for the big revisions here. You know, it doesn't hurt to look at the data, to look at the integrity of the data. The BLS does need help in the way that they are severely underfunded and they're part of a hiring freeze. And so I think looking at the data is good. I have faith in the data. But these large revisions were significant and it's important to pay attention to them and what they mean.
- [17:56]
Interviewer/Reporter
So when it comes to the data, Elizabeth, I mean, what holds more weight? Is it inflation data or is it jobs data?
- [18:04]
Elizabeth Rettner
That's a great question. And that's why, you know, the Fed has a dual mandate where they have to balance these risks. It's, it's both. Right. And that's what we're seeing with Fed decisions right now is they're in a challenging place where inflation isn't at their 2% target, but the labor market is clearly weakening. You know, we'll all be listening next week to how they handle these risks. I do think a rate cut is probably likely. I think this is where they sort of turn their attention to the labor market as being the greater two of those risks at this time. But, you know, it's why it's a, it's a constant balancing act. They're both very important data sources. They tell us a lot about the health of the economy overall.
- [18:41]
Jess Minton
Of course, as you know, Elizabeth, the fierce debate, as always when it comes to different cutting cycles like this and resuming after they started a year ago last September with rate cuts, as far as how aggressive do you think the Fed will be with cuts when you have swaps pricing in close to 150 basis points over the next year, will it be that aggressive or will inflation data prevent that from happening?
- [19:05]
Elizabeth Rettner
You know, that's a great question. I tend to think it's not going to be aggressive unless the labor market weakens significantly and dramatically. Right now we're seeing cooling that probably needs to be addressed. But I don't anticipate, you know, like a 50 basis point cut next week like some people are anticipating. I think they'll play it a little more conservatively, but we kind of have to wait and see. You know, we've never, it's hard to say what's going to happen with inflation right now because we've never seen tariffs like this. We don't know what's going to happen. And so it's tempting to say tariffs should just be a one time price bump, but these are very broad and they're impacting all different levels of the economy at different timing and at different magnitudes. Some of it's still tied up in the courts. So there's just a lot of unknowns right now that I think we're just going to have to wait and watch.
- [19:52]
Interviewer/Reporter
Play out and all that said, what does that mean for the consumer? That was a great question.
- [19:59]
Podcast Host/Announcer
Yeah.
- [19:59]
Elizabeth Rettner
So overall general consumer sentiment about the economy is really souring. We've seen it in, you know, the University of Michigan, the Conference board. Those are kind of the gold standards of consumer economic sentiment. This week though, we got the survey of consumer expectations from the New York Fed and it showed that inflation expectations are slightly up. Households are more likely to say their financial situation is worsening than improving. And, and many people, the sort of the big takeaway from the New York Fed data was the outlook about the labor market. People put the probability of finding a new job if they lost their current job at the lowest ever. It was something like 49% if I remember correctly. So people are have a lot of uncertainty right now. Just last week we found that 64% of Americans believe the U.S. economy will enter a recession in the next 12 months. And that's up slightly from when we asked one month ago. So I think all of this nervousness taken collectively could lack or could indicate a lack of resilience should the economy falter. And by falter I don't necessarily just mean a recession, of course that would be faltering. But also price increases. Right. If inflation surges again, I don't think households are in the same place they were a couple of years ago to be able to deal with this sort of stressors.
- [21:08]
Jess Minton
What do you think this all means when it comes to corporate margins? Because I know not only just larger companies that you follow, but smaller ones too. I what are you seeing there and how are those consumer oriented ones feeling? It maybe more so when it comes to passing on cost to Americans and other shoppers.
- [21:24]
Elizabeth Rettner
Yeah. So I think, you know, the rate, the PPI to CPI ratio has been a little volatile recently. Margins have been volatile in the data. We know that companies have been reluctant to pass along price increases to consumers because they know consumers are price sensitive. Right now I think think, you know, in my, in my work at NerdWallet, I pay particular attention to consumers. That doesn't just mean consumers, you know, in the store consuming things, but I think about employees and I think about small business owners. When I look at the ppi, for instance, it's important not just to look at the headline figures because they're volatile from month to month, but to remember beneath those headline figures there are thousands of large and small companies working with very different numbers, very different customers and decisions to make. And generally speaking, these Smaller businesses are going to be more vulnerable to squeezing margins. They're going to be less able to hold that line right to, to eat the tariffs. They might not have the luxury of waiting and seeing where things end up in the courts. And so I think we're more likely to see these small businesses get uncomfortable, maybe cut hours, cut employees and pass those prices along.
- [22:28]
Interviewer/Reporter
Elizabeth, there's so much tariff trade news lately, sometimes it's hard to keep up. The headlines just keep popping up. What's your take, though, on the market reaction to all the news surrounding it?
- [22:40]
Elizabeth Rettner
Yeah, well, I just think overall, across the economy, whether we're talking about consumers, whether we're talking about markets, there's just a lot of uncertainty. And I know we're all tired of hearing that word, but it doesn't seem to be getting any clearer. And I think we're all making our best guesses, our best judgments. You know, consumers haven't really pulled back dramatically on spending yet, but I do sense that's coming. You know, debt levels are higher now than they have been over the past year, four years. And so I just, I sense that we're just in a different place right now. And yeah, we're all trying to sort out what comes next.
- [23:15]
Jess Minton
Well, as far as my last question to you, Elizabeth, what do you think comes next ultimately?
- [23:22]
Elizabeth Rettner
That's a great question. You know, one of the things I'm watching right now in the labor market is sort of how people are feeling about their prospects. I just mentioned the survey of consumer expectations and what that said about people feeling comfortable leaving their job. But how does that translate to the economy overall? We know hiring is down, openings are down. The economy isn't adding jobs. And the jobs that are being added are, are highly concentrated in certain industries. And I just, I'm concerned about what that means for individual households and their ability to sort of improve their quality of life and their standard of living. If you can't upgrade your job to one that suits your lifestyle better or one that covers your bills better, you know, consumer sentiment is not going to improve.
- [24:06]
Interviewer/Reporter
All right, Elizabeth Rent, thank you so much. Senior economist at Nerd Wallet talking about the markets and so much more.
- [24:13]
Podcast Host/Announcer
Stay with us.
- [24:14]
Michael McKee
More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily coming up after this.
- [24:22]
Podcast Host/Announcer
From providing extra support during busy seasons to replacing vacant roles, you need Express employment professionals on your team. Express can handle everything from contract placements to finding the right full time team member. Solve your workforce challenges when you let Express deal with the workers compensation, payroll, benefits and more so you can concentrate on what really matters. Growing your business go to expresspros.com if you've never used a staffing company, here's how Express has helped businesses like yours to balance their workforce to make meet production demands, reduce stress and burnout, which reduces turnover access a local talent pool ready to work for all types of jobs and a variety of reasons. Choosing Express employment professionals is the move to make this year with more than 870 locations. Find the one near you at expresspros.com that's expresspros.com Every business has an ambition.
- [25:22]
Elizabeth Rettner
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- [25:27]
Narrator/Announcer
Loans so you can expand and access.
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Elizabeth Rettner
To hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide.
- [25:32]
Narrator/Announcer
And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo pay later and all major cards so you.
- [25:39]
Elizabeth Rettner
Can focus on scaling up when it's.
- [25:41]
Narrator/Announcer
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- [26:51]
Podcast Host/Announcer
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.
- [27:05]
Jess Minton
Jess Minton and Lisa Mateo here in the Bloomberg Business Week studio. Continuing what we're talking about, especially when it comes to the regulatory outlook. Late Lisa when it comes to Bitcoin and the recent progress with a particular company so Mara holdings so we had Fred Teal, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Mara holdings, who's Going to be breaking down kind of the latest here, especially in the midst of the Trump administration, being more pro crypto. And he is joining us from London. Fred, thanks so much for being here. Always a pleasure speaking with you. For our listeners who haven't heard about your company, talk to us us more about specifically Mara and what it is that you all do and how it relates to the crypto space.
- [27:46]
Michael McKee
Sure.
- [27:46]
Fred Thiel
So we are one of the largest bitcoin miners in the world. We operate 16 data centers across four continents, across a variety of energy sources and sizes and scales. We are one of the most advanced in the use of liquid immersion technology, which is a cooling technology that doesn't use water, that keeps our miners cool. And we are also the second largest public holder of bitcoin in the world today with over 50,000 Bitcoin in our balance sheet. So you can consider us as a kind of company that takes stranded energy and converts it into value by converting it into bitcoin. We also own and operate our own wind farm. We mitigate methane gas in oil fields by burning the flare gas and generating electricity from it. In Finland, for example, we heat 80,000 homes with the heat from our data centers. So we're very environmentally focused and have a sustainability focus and that over 50% of our energy is from renewable sources.
- [28:53]
Interviewer/Reporter
Yeah. So speaking of energy, Fred, I guess I'll go there since you mentioned it. It's an energy intensive process. Right. So how is it different from the energy used to power, let's say, data centers for AI? What does that mean for, you know, the industry as far as that's concerned, AI, you know, versus is bitcoin and the amount of energy that it takes.
- [29:15]
Fred Thiel
So the primary difference between the two were both what are called high intensity compute, meaning compute that uses a lot of energy. The differences between bitcoin mining and AI is that AI data centers need to have high availability. They need to operate at 99.999% uptime, which means that they have to constantly be consuming energy and they have to have a constant amount of energy allocated. Bitcoin miners are a flexible load. What that means is that we can move our demand, if you would, of energy up and down in relation to the amount of energy the utility has available. So we essentially use stranded energy or every electron that can't be sold to other places, basically. So if you think about what we do in the world of renewables, for example with wind farms and solar, is a lot of times these wind farms can't sell 100% of the energy they produce because there are problems around congestion. What do I mean by that? Well, demand for electricity is not constant, meaning it's not X number of watts 24 hours a day. It varies depending on the time of day, the temperature outside. Are people heating their homes, are they not, are they doing laundry? All you think of all the different things they use electricity for. Do they have EVs, have they plug them in to charge at night? And so the demand for electricity varies a lot during the day. The problem is when you add a lot of wind and solar energy to grids, those power sources generate electricity at specific times of day only. The wind typically only blows during certain hours, primarily afternoon or early evening. And the sun basically shines from 9am to 3pm From a solar energy perspective. And so if you don't have high energy demand and during those times those energy sources don't contribute a lot to the grid. And the grid is running its traditional, it may be nuclear, it may be other forms of natural gas, things like that, that it runs as baseload. And so a lot of times this renewable energy is wasted, it's not used. And so we can come in to these renewable energy sites, consume all the electrons they can't sell into the grid, which helps them become more profitable, which allows them to compete by lowering their price of electricity to the grid and to consumers, which is a benefit to consumers. And it also means these projects pay off faster. So we're actually a huge financial windfall for these guys.
- [31:51]
Jess Minton
And for those just joining us, we're with Fred Thiel, chairman and chief executive officer of Mara holdings, talking to us about Bitcoin mining here. And of course you were just talking about the energy aspect of it. What is it like competing for AI power? Specifically because big tech does, does have a lot more money to spend on electricity. So how does that end up affecting and changing your strategy?
- [32:16]
Fred Thiel
So there are some other subtle differences because the fact we can use flexible, we're a flexible load. And so we can change our demand depending upon availability. We can put our systems in places where AI companies can't because they need constant load to operate their data centers. Another thing that AI data centers need is access to high speed fiber connectivity because they obviously need to be able to share data with their customers. Bitcoin miners don't need that high speed connectivity. And so again we can locate in places where AI companies can't. So while there is a large overlap in the potential sites that we could both use, in reality we tend to go places where they can't and they tend to go places where the electricity is too expensive. Expensive for us because they're what's most important for AI companies is low latency network speed, meaning fast network connections and also constant availability of electricity. And because we don't need those things, we tend to go after lower cost sources of energy.
- [33:25]
Interviewer/Reporter
And before you go, I'm going to squeeze one more in because we have about a minute or so left with you. There's been a lot of regulatory changes when it comes to Bitcoin. So describe how Bitcoin looks differently under this new administration and what does it mean for the sector moving forward or.
- [33:41]
Fred Thiel
So the big kind of watershed event was in January of last year when the first Bitcoin ETFs really were approved and you saw this large amount of capital flow into the ETFs. The Biden administration had really been focused on trying to restrict bitcoin and crypto in general. The challenge for the Biden administration was that Bitcoin had already been deemed a commodity and therefore wasn't governed by the sec, but rather by the cftc. That being said, the fdic, the OCC and the other regulators were effectively keeping any crypto related companies from having access to the banking system and other things. Under the Trump administration, all of those regulatory advisory notices to banks regarding working with crypto companies were essentially torn up and repealed or reversed. The SEC changed its position. You're now seeing institutions building all sorts of institutional products for bitcoin. So it's a very different world today.
- [34:51]
Narrator/Announcer
You can say that again.
- [34:52]
Jess Minton
This is Fred Thiel.
- [34:53]
Interviewer/Reporter
We're talking with Chairman and CEO.
- [34:56]
Podcast Host/Announcer
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast available on Apple, Spotify and anywhere else you get. Your podcasts listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern on bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app tune in and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live Every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.
- [35:21]
Fred Thiel
Foreign.
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