Epstein Island’s Billionaire Owner Is Battling Zealous Voyeurs

Summary

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Bloomberg Businessweek — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Epstein Island’s Billionaire Owner Is Battling Zealous Voyeurs
Date: May 13, 2026
Hosts: Carol Massar and Tim Stenovec
Featured Guests: Sri Natarajan (Chief Wall Street Correspondent, Bloomberg News), Ava Benny Morrison (Senior Legal Reporter, Bloomberg News)

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Overview

This episode dives into the bizarre and ongoing saga of Little St. James (commonly known as Epstein Island), now under new ownership but still at the center of global controversy. The discussion focuses on the island’s persistent allure to conspiracy theorists, social media influencers, and trespassers — and the fraught efforts of its billionaire owner, Stephen Deckoff, to keep them out. The story is contextualized within the broader Epstein legacy: an intricate web of money, crime, cultural obsession, and the “never-ending” search for answers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Why Epstein Island Remains an Obsession

Timestamp: 02:24–03:07

• The episode opens with a reading from the Bloomberg article: descriptions of alleged “hogtied” intruders, duct tape restraints, and police attending to would-be trespassers underscore the chaos and intensity surrounding the island.
• Sri Natarajan sets the tone:

  “It's just this weird world of Epstein that doesn't seem to leave us. ...the release of the Epstein files...would in some ways quell all the conspiracy theories. Instead, it's only fanned those conspiracy theories.” (03:07)

• Far from becoming a closed chapter, the Epstein saga gains new momentum as curiosity about the island, and speculation about Epstein's death, continues to run rampant.

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2. Who Is Trespassing — and Why?

Timestamp: 04:21–06:56

• Ava Benny Morrison details the “host of characters” venturing to the island. Examples include:
  • An anti-trafficking activist from Tennessee, detained and reportedly held in an underground bunker.
  • YouTubers and drone operators seeking viral content.
• Ava shares a striking account:

  “He was held in an underground bunker for several hours and he was blindfolded until police arrived and freed him. ...He decided, you know what, let's climb the hill, let's erect this flag, let’s take back the island..." (04:42)

• Social media motivations are strong: influencers document their attempts for millions of views (i.e., a YouTuber's abortive mission after being stung by a sea urchin still netted 30 million views).
  — “Gets on a jet ski, wades into waist deep water...is about 2 meters...from getting onto the beach, where he's stung by a sea urchin and then has to abort his mission. Still got 30 million views on YouTube.” (06:16, Sri Natarajan)

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3. The Owner Fights Back: Citizen Arrests and Property Rights

Timestamp: 03:07–04:21, 07:28–08:51

• Stephen Deckoff, a billionaire investor, is now the owner. His team openly threatens “citizen arrests” to deter intruders.
• The property’s spokesperson claims all restraints are legal and denies mistreatment, but acknowledges ongoing “citizen arrests.”
  — “The island's property, on behalf of the owner, is willing to go out there and say that they have been carrying out citizen arrests and they will continue to carry out citizen arrests.” (03:07, Sri Natarajan)
• Law enforcement is slow to reach the island; until they arrive, “you're potentially in the hands of the island personnel.” (07:48, Sri Natarajan)
• The broader point: the media circus and trespassing are overshadowing the “ghastly story” of the crimes that originally made the island notorious.

  “It is not some sort of adventure thrill that you should be going out there to seek. It is a place where some really terrible things...have been alleged to have happened.” (08:51, Sri Natarajan)

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4. The Power of Online Conspiracies and Viral Narratives

Timestamp: 06:39–07:28

• Conspiracies still abound: some visitors arrive with “Is Epstein alive?” pamphlets.
• The digital age amplifies mythmaking and obsession, turning Epstein’s properties into viral content generators and dramatic backdrops for unsanctioned “Epstein-themed tourism.”

  “People like proudly documenting these journeys on social media.” (06:56, Ava Benny Morrison)

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5. Money, Assets, and the Fate of Epstein’s Properties

Timestamp: 09:05–10:41

• Discussion shifts to how Epstein’s enormous wealth and assets — from the Caribbean island to an NYC townhouse and a desert ranch — have been handled since his death.
• Many of these properties sold at significant discounts to new wealthy owners, including former Goldman Sachs executive Michael Daffey’s purchase of Epstein’s Manhattan townhouse.

  “People have not shied away from Epstein related properties. I don't know if they bargain for the fact that Epstein would still be such a central part of our culture and politics and whatnot, but here we are.” (10:16, Sri Natarajan)

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6. Will the Questions Ever End?

Timestamp: 11:21–12:04

• Despite the release of government files, the public remains unsatisfied, driven by hopes for revelations of “grand cover-ups” or evidence implicating new elites.
• Ava Benny Morrison is skeptical closure is possible:

  “I don't think so. ...There was such a groundswell to get these files released...But it doesn't seem like there was any evidence of that from what we've seen. ...We're just not going to get to a point where everyone is satisfied.” (11:27)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This is really what the Epstein story has become...It's only fanned those conspiracy theories. …It has become this crazy cultural phenomenon.”
  — Sri Natarajan (03:07)
• “People like proudly documenting these journeys on social media.”
  — Ava Benny Morrison (06:56)
• “All this has done is just added this exclamation point to the Epstein craziness…and taken the spotlight away from what really is a ghastly story.”
  — Sri Natarajan (08:51)
• “We're just not going to get to a point where everyone is satisfied.”
  — Ava Benny Morrison (12:04)
• “Gets on a jet ski, wades into waist deep water...stung by a sea urchin...Still got 30 million views on YouTube. Tells you enormous interest.”
  — Sri Natarajan (06:16)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------------|--------------| | Dramatic intro / Wild stories | 02:24–03:07 | | Current owner’s challenges ("citizen arrest") | 03:07–04:21 | | Profiles of intruders/motivations | 04:21–06:56 | | Social media, viral tourism | 06:39–07:28 | | The property response & legal dilemmas | 07:28–08:51 | | The legacy of Epstein assets/real estate | 09:05–10:41 | | Will conspiracy theories ever end? | 11:21–12:04 |

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Tone & Style

Conversational, incredulous, and at times darkly humorous — reflecting the surreal persistence of the Epstein narrative in global culture. The hosts and guests balance serious critique with informal banter and striking anecdotes, underscoring the mixture of tragedy and farce characterized by the ongoing “Epstein phenomenon.”

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In Summary

• Little St. James (“Epstein Island”) has not shed its infamy; instead, it's become a bizarre stage for thrill-seekers, conspiracy chasers, and content creators, all while new owner Stephen Deckoff grapples with unwanted attention.
• The property’s staff have resorted to physical deterrence and “citizen arrests,” walking a legal gray area as they wait for official intervention.
• The fixation on Epstein and his properties speaks to broader cultural and internet-fueled obsessions with scandal, secrecy, and wealth.
• Even after the release of investigatory documents, it’s unlikely public interest — or speculation — will fade any time soon.

For more, check out the original story on Bloomberg.com

Transcript

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[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News this is Bloomberg Business Week Daily, reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast with Carol Massar and Tim Stenbeck on Bloomberg

[Carol Massar]

Radio Sometimes the first few lines of a story are so good that for an introduction, I just have to read right from it.

[Tim Stenbeck]

This is definitely one of those times.

[Carol Massar]

Here goes. The latest reports from Little St. Jeff's the notorious Caribbean hideaway of Jeffrey Epstein are startling. One recent visitor was allegedly hogtied naked would be interlopers on jet skis have been chased away. Another apparently was bound with duct tape and assaulted in the presence of police officers.

[Tim Stenbeck]

All right, that's why you had to read them. Yeah, I mean, this will catch your attention. This is written by Sri Natarajan and Eva Benny Morrison. SRI is of course Bloomberg News Chief Wall street correspondent Ava Is Bloomberg news senior legal reporter. This duo putting out a great story, as we said, among the most read on the Bloomberg. They both join us here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker. What the heck is going on Little St. James?

[Sri Natarajan]

It's just this weird world of Epstein that doesn't seem to leave us. And in many ways, this is really what the Epstein story has become. We thought the release of the Epstein files from the justice department would in some ways quell all the conspiracy theories. Instead, what seems to have happened, it's only fanned those conspiracy theories. And we're in this space where it has become this crazy cultural phenomenon. And now you have all these people trying to get onto Little St. J, the island, you know, where Epstein famously hosted all his famous friends and where he's accused of having committed some of his worst crimes. That island is actually now owned by a Wall street billionaire, A distressed debt founder of Black Diamond, Steven Dekhoff. That is a business where you need to have sharp elbows. And he's grown up in that rough and tumble business. But now he is so frustrated with this continuous stream of unwanted visitors, intruders, trespassers, whatever you want to call them, that the island's property, on behalf of the owner, is willing to go out there and say that they have been carrying out citizen arrests and they will continue to carry out citizen arrests. Just think about that for a moment. For a top Wall street businessman to be out there saying that and then imagine how crazy that situation must be.

[Carol Massar]

So, Eva, talk a little bit about the people who are finding themselves. I don't want to call everybody a conspiracy theorist, but they're the folks big social media followings. In some cases, they're essentially have campaigns. Some people think Jeffrey Epstein is actually still alive. There are drones flying over this island. What do they hope to find?

[Ava Benny Morrison]

That's right. We've seen a whole host of characters going down to the island, including the man who runs an anti trafficking nonprofit from Tennessee who found himself restrained with duct tape when he tried to plant a flag with the name of his organization on the top of a hill on the island. I spoke to his wife yesterday who described the ordeal, said that he was held in a underground bunker for several hours and he was blindfolded until police arrived and freed him. And you know, he expected that he was going to be trespassing, but the way that he explained it was he got a little bit excited when he got to the shore and he decided, you know what, let's climb the hill, let's erect this flag, let's Take back the island and let's raise awareness to Epstein's island. I think there's been plenty of attention on the Epstein case already. And, you know, we've seen other people who have gone down there just to collect social media content. You know, one YouTuber in particular posted a 20 minute or so video, you know, detailing his journey through St. Thomas. Getting on a boat, going out there, swimming, clamoring over rocks, trying to get onto the shore. So it's, you know, people have various reasons for going down there, but it's certainly annoying the owners.

[Tim Stenbeck]

I have to tell you, I think I did a deep dive somewhere on Social where I followed somebody who, who went to it with a drone or something. And I was curious.

[Carol Massar]

You're part of the problem.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Who has not climbed over a fence that you weren't. That was locked?

[Sri Natarajan]

I'm just saying. All of us, Carol, all of us.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Thank you. No, come on.

[Sri Natarajan]

Anyway, but she's, she's, she missed out on telling you the best part about that YouTube video story. The guy spent all this time, all this energy to try and get onto the island. Gets on a jet seat, sea, wades into waist deep water, is about 2 meters, 3 meters from getting onto the beach, where he's stung by a sea urchin and then has to abort his mission. Still got 30 million views on YouTube. Tells you enormous interest.

[Carol Massar]

But is that what it's about? Is that what's fueling this? Is it the idea of influencers, social media stars going directly to their audiences? The interest that people far and wide have about this place that's motivating these people to go and do this?

[Ava Benny Morrison]

I think for some people, there's just this intense fascination in the Epstein story. And like you mentioned before, some people believe that he didn't commit suicide in prison in 2019. One of the people that I spoke to yesterday when they, when he went down to the US Virgin Islands, he had pamphlets saying is Epstein alive? And offering a reward for information. And so that was part of his motivation for going there. So, you know, we've seen a kind of whole host of reasons and then people like proudly documenting these journeys on social media.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Well, I think what's interesting is the more we learn and we might ultimately never know everything, right? Because Epstein, I mean, as far as we all know, he's gone. Right? So I just think it's trying to piece this together. I want to go back to policing the island. Is he allowed to police the island, the individual who owns it now?

[Sri Natarajan]

Well, the spokesperson certainly come out and said we have been lawfully restraining them. Or at least they've been saying that we have carried out citizens arrests and we will continue to carry out hog tying someone.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Is that okay?

[Sri Natarajan]

Now they haven't coped to the fact that they hogtied anyone. All they are saying is they haven't mistreated anyone who has threatened the safety of the people who were lawfully on the island. So make of that what you will. But also, if you have to think about the apparatus out there, it is a collection of islands. So to get someone from one of the bigger islands, the police force to come and apprehend someone could possibly take a few hours. And in that time you're potentially in the hands of the island personnel, the estate folks who are actually on that island every single day. But I think the bigger point really here is that what all this has done is just added this exclamation point to the Epstein craziness, to some ways, and taken the spotlight away from what really is a ghastly story. Even if you think about this island, it is not some sort of adventure thrill that you should be going out there to seek. It is a place where some really terrible things have been alleged to have happened.

[John Connors]

Well.

[Tim Stenbeck]

And I think about the other elements in the story. School children playing a game like it does get bizarre. And let's not forget, right, exactly what has happened or certainly what seems to, we have heard certainly from victims.

[Carol Massar]

Additionally, another part of the story is the amazing amount of wealth that Jeffrey Epstein had and the assets that he had and what has happened to those assets. I've seen, I've seen newspapers do videos going to an abandoned plane, for example. I think it was the 727 that Jeffrey Epstein flew on for a lot of years. And there's massive interest in that. What about the real estate? Because you guys go into that in this story about who's bought other real estate and why this island was of interest to buyers, even if it was at a big discount.

[Sri Natarajan]

It's one of the most confounding parts,

[Carol Massar]

especially at a discount.

[Sri Natarajan]

I should say it's one of the more confounding parts of the story. Right. If you have that kind of money to spend, 50, 60, $70 million, I'm sure there are a ton of opportunities to choose from. It's not just the island we're talking about. When you think about the sale of the Epstein townhouse on the Upper east side on 71st street, it was actually a former senior Goldman trading executive, Michael Daffy, who bought that house for about less than 50% of the asking price to be fed him. At the time he said that, you know, he'd never met the owner of the house and he was doing it because he believed in the future of New York City.

[Carol Massar]

It was kind of post pandemic. I think it was 20, 21, it was post pandemic.

[Sri Natarajan]

But I'm sure there could have been other ways to express his belief in the future of the city. Or maybe he really has a really good reason to buy that townhouse. But the fact is that people have not shied away from Epstein related properties. I don't know if they bargain for the fact that Epstein would still be such a central part of our culture and politics and whatnot, but here we are.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Yeah, I am just kind of also blown away that you say that there's Epstein themed tourism being a theme that, you know, that people want to, you know, see his former properties. But I will say, going back to what Tim says and this, we think about toots like the accumulation of money, understanding the Epstein story, the property, was it out west or. It's just things keep cropping up.

[Carol Massar]

To me, you're talking about the ranch.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Right, the ranch. It's just there's so much more that we're realizing there's a lot of money here. And as we continue here at Bloomberg to follow the money and try to figure out the story and this kind of web of people that he knew.

[Chase for Business Announcer]

I don't know.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Hopefully we get the full story eventually.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, I guess. Eva, what sort of puts it to rest ever? Is that a possibility?

[Ava Benny Morrison]

I don't think so. I think there, you know, there was such a groundswell to get these files released and people were hoping that there was going to be answers in there about I think some grand cover up and some of the elites who had been protected. It doesn't seem like there was any evidence of that from what we've seen. So I think there is still a sense among at least some people that they haven't got the answers that they want. So they want the documents that have been redacted or the documents that have been held back that have victims information in it. So there, I think we're just not going to get to a point where everyone is satisfied.

[Tim Stenbeck]

These stories that are always among the most read. I think about the story we did about the black card, the Centurion card, Amex card by Max Abelson that we talked about again, you know, tracking the money and understanding a little bit more. Another snippet of Jeffrey Epstein's World. Thank you guys so much. We really appreciate it. It was story we wanted to cover. SRI Natarajan and Ava Benny Morrison sri of course. Bloomberg News Chief Wall Street Correspondent Ava Bloomberg News Senior Legal Reporter. You can find this story just check it out. It's on the Bloomberg and [e-mail] stay with us.

[Carol Massar]

More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Coming up after this

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[Carol Massar]

Well, let's stay on China because the country appeared to ramp up missile production last year by the most since Xi Jinping became president back in 2013. This is according to a Bloomberg analysis that mapped out the sector's finances for the first time. It is today's big take. It's one of the most read stories on the Bloomberg Terminal. You can check out the story and more from Bloomberg, the big take at bloomberg.com/big take and on the Bloomberg Terminal. Jerry Doyle is with us. Jerry's one of the editors on the piece. He's Bloomberg News global defense editor. He joins us from London. Jerry, welcome. So the team reviewed the corporate filings of every listed Chinese company that mentioned either of the nation's two leading state owned missile makers at least once per year in that period. What did you find?

[Jerry Doyle]

Well, we found a increase in revenue over that time and an especially sharp increase in revenue last year. Now what that tells us is that, you know, China is not particularly forthcoming with information about the size of its nuclear arsenal, what it's building, how fast it's building it. So this serves as a interesting and useful proxy for telling us what is happening with China's missile arsenal. And last year was a spectacularly large year for that.

[Carol Massar]

You know, it's important for us to mention the backdrop here. I mean, that is of course, the war in Iran and the depletion of US Missiles over that same period of time. What's the implication here, especially with regard to what China could do with Taiwan?

[Jerry Doyle]

Well, it's certainly having a larger arsenal of these conventional missiles certainly give some more leverage over the region, gives them the ability to strike around the South China Sea, be able to hit bases in Japan, to be able to hit Guam, to be able to hit ships. And that sort of might in a conflict scenario make them feel as though they have more control, more leverage and perhaps be emboldened to try more military adventurism.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Hey Jerry, one thing I wonder too, is this because you guys do include some numbers in the program. I mean, in the story, the Pentagon estimates that China has at least 3,150 ballistic missiles, 300 ground launch cruise missiles as of 2024. And what you guys point out, it's respectively 140, 47% and 50% increase from 2015 when the US started systematically disclosing estimates on Beijing's missile arsenal. Is the story not just about the entire number, but just the ramp up the growth. That's what you guys really picked up on and that's pretty significant and maybe telling?

[Jerry Doyle]

Yeah, I think so. And you know, Xi Jinping has sort of overseen or overseen a dramatic sort of modernization of China's military. The missiles are a part of of that. They've also built more aircraft More advanced aircraft. Their navy is expanding at high speed. So these missiles are just a piece of the puzzle. But what they do, and perhaps the fast expansion last year shows us, is that they're very serious about trying to project their power farther from China than they ever have before.

[Carol Massar]

What about when it comes to nuclear weapons?

[Jerry Doyle]

Well, that's the big question. Now China has a strict no first use policy that they stated, and they've also stated in the past that they don't want a nuclear arsenal that is any larger than what they need to provide a deterrent for their adversaries. In other words, a big enough nuclear arsenal that nobody will risk a nuclear war with China because the response will be too painful. Now, how big that number is only China knows. But we do know that they're building more ICBM. They rolled out new types of ICBM's at the military parade last year. They're digging, constructing new missile silos. So that expansion is happening in terms of their nuclear arsenal and their ICBM intercontinental ballistic missiles.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Right. Just to clarify, hey, having said that, how sophisticated are their weapons? Because I know when we talk about U.S. defense companies, I mean the production, so much of the manufacturing right here, like we are really careful about our defense technology, our military technology. So how sophisticated, Jerry, is what the Chinese are doing?

[Jerry Doyle]

Well, I think their newest weapons are very sophisticated. They incorporate technologies that everybody's trying to pursue. Things like hypersonic glide vehicles, things like being able to strike a ship moving at sea. You know, things with, with longer range, different stages, being able to maneuver on the way to their target. So there's no reason to think that their, their newest missiles aren't highly capable. Now they did start building their ballistic missile arsenal decades ago. So they do have quite a few sort of lower tech, shorter range, less accurate missiles in their arsenal as well. Ultimately though, as with any serious weapon, the only way to find out how well it works is to see it used in a war. And you know, one hopes we don't.

[Carol Massar]

Gerry, you know, here in the US we don't have a exact measure of what's referred to as magazine depth because, for, for, you know, national security reasons that the government doesn't tell us that. Do we have any idea what it is in China? And, and, and also sort of answer the question about, really about the ecosystem that the team found in making these. The only reference point I have is the United States where, where there are these, you know, large publicly traded companies, they report earnings. We can see how much these things cost. It's different in China with state owned firms and private companies.

[Jerry Doyle]

That's right. There are state owned companies that are entirely controlled by the state. There's also a large network of private companies or companies that have state investment in them. And this is all part of the civil military fusion, which is a concept that China has embraced under Xi as part of this military modern day modernization program. The idea is you can get all of industry mobilized together towards one goal. Whether it's making aircraft or missiles or ships, you can be more productive. So there is less of a divide. There's more of a meld certainly in terms of output and goals between China's state and the private industry. And as a result, they're able to churn out a tremendous amount of stuff. You know, we're talking about missiles. But the Navy has expanded at extremely rapid pace as well. You know, they're just in terms of sheer numbers, they're, they're, you know, near the top of the chart, if not at the top of the chart.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Gosh, I feel like the big takeaway. I know this is a Bloomberg big take. It's just everyone around the world is just beefing up their defense. Jerry, thank you so much. So glad we could spend some time with you. Jerry Doyle, he's Bloomberg News global defense editor, of course, joining us from from London. Check out the story. It's on the Bloomberg [e-mail] stay with us.

[Carol Massar]

More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily coming up after this.

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Support for the show comes from Public. Lately it feels like there are two types of investing platforms. Some are traditional brokerages that haven't changed much in decades and others feel less like investing and more like a game. Public is positioned differently. It's an investing platform for people who are serious about building their wealth on public. You can build a portfolio of stocks, options, bonds, crypto without all the bugs or the confetti. Retirement accounts. Yep. High yield cash. Yes again. They even have direct indexing. Public has modern design, powerful tools and customer support that actually helps go to public.com market and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com market ad paid for by Public Holdings Brokerage Services by Public Investing Member FINRA, SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors SEC Registered Advisor Crypto Services by ZeroHash all investing involves risk of loss. See complete [e-mail] disclosures if you follow

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[Carol Massar]

We just spoke with Haley Sachs, also known as Mrs. Dow Jones, the author of the new book Future Rich Person Carol. She talk a little bit about the anxiety that these young people, I have to say these young people, because I'm no longer a young person, are feeling about the economy. In a world where everyone in the workforce is thinking about AI and how it will affect their careers. You don't have to be a young person to be concerned about how AI is going to affect your career.

[Tim Stenbeck]

No, I think everybody's asking, trying to understand what truly will be the impact of AI. Some folks say it's going to create jobs net net. It's just there's going to be some Dislocation in the labor market. But I think it's safe to say

[John Connors (continued) / Cincinnati Insurance Announcer]

to be asking this question is a smart one.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, John Connors has been asking this question. He's looked into this. He's the CEO of Boathouse. It's an advertising, marketing and communications firm. He joins us from Boston this afternoon. John, we wanted to talk to you because your Firm spoke with 150 Fortune 1000 CEOs, included a survey about AI. Are they deploying AI and like investing in AI so they can get rid of us?

[John Connors]

No, I think much to the contrary, I think our data indicates that they'll continue to be hiring. They see talent as key to the growth and they seek talent as key to being able to implement AI. So on both of those fronts, I think we'll see more hiring from them.

[Carol Massar]

So how do you justify the spend? Because the spend is so big that some folks out there argue the only way to see payoff is if you reduce a workforce.

[John Connors]

Yeah, I think, well, you know, the number one thing they care about is growth. And so I think they're worried about being depositioned. The other piece that we saw a lot in the data was their confidence in their strategy. So as we've seen this uncertainty over the last few years, I think one of the really interesting pieces was we're seeing they're much more certain in their strategies going forward. They're much more confident in their role of driving performance, but they're concerned on the operational side. So they view AI and the talent they're going to need to bring on for AI as the pathway to get that growth.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Hey, John, one thing I'm wondering is companies who are spending and employing and deploying more AI services in their offices across the board, how are they measuring, are they putting systems in place to measure the ROI and the productivity that they get by an employee who is being able to access some of these AI solutions.

[John Connors]

I think it's still anecdotal for the most part. Carol, I think what we're seeing originally we saw a lot like last year, we saw a lot of marketing focused investment in AI. This year, customer service operations, it continue to be the pieces. So you're starting to see sort of a little bit more of a shift towards sort of operational efficiency on the AI side as the early pieces before the revenue drivers on AI.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Yeah, it's interesting. You guys have a lot of clients in health care and financial services. But you said the survey, from what I understand, wasn't just focused on those areas, it was much more broad based Is that fair?

[John Connors]

That's fair, yeah. It's about. It basically represented the entire economy from, from a company standpoint with about 55% of the companies being public and the rest being private.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Any nuances in terms of the data for certain sectors? I'm just curious. I mean, I feel like when it comes to healthcare, folks think this could be a very big impact, but time will tell. We're not quite there yet, but tell me what you found, if there's any nuance.

[John Connors]

Yeah, we actually really probed the difference between public and private companies. The samples and the patterns were really consistent across both. Both were sort of net holding steady on staff and or growing on staff. So I think the efficiency play is one of those narratives that through history, as you know, we like to come back to. Man's gonna. Machine's gonna replace man. But I think it's in this individual data set.

[Carol Massar]

We're not seeing that, but machines replace some men.

[John Connors]

That's reallocation.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, like, like, I mean we could go through different parts of the industrial revolution or the idea that we're not driving around in horses and buggies.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Check out a car factory in China where they don't even have lights on because there's no people in there.

[Ava Benny Morrison]

Right.

[Carol Massar]

So called dark factories. Exactly. Yeah. So. So who's. Who, who gets replaced and sort of who doesn't?

[John Connors]

Yeah, I think, I think scale. We start, we'll sort of continue to see scale and we'll continue to see the high end, sort of the curators. I think being in the middle is a dangerous spot. So I think we'll see the middle get replaced and we'll push people to the scale ends of the spectrum, into the high value ends of the spectrum.

[Carol Massar]

What should we be doing? And I use the term we loosely. I mean everybody listening and watching right now who work in the so called knowledge economy. What should we be doing to be safe?

[John Connors]

That's a good question. I think the piece is. I don't think my advice is that different than most in the sense of I just keep experimenting. Right. Because I think the piece we're seeing across all these CEOs. Well, I guess the one piece would be translate your CEO well. Right. I think one of the pieces of data that you saw in the study was CEOs confidence in their impact on performance in their organizations. McKinsey had some data that it was CEOs drive about 45% of performance. In our study, they believe they drive even a much greater percent of performance. 91% are over 45% performance. So are the driver. So I think the really interesting piece is, are you looking upstream? Are you translating your CEOs AI strategy? The more you're helping drive that, the more safe you are.

[Carol Massar]

Cloud. Oh, sorry.

[Tim Stenbeck]

No, go ahead.

[Carol Massar]

You know, I'm just reminded of all these. Coinbase CEO will cut the workforce by about 14%. Cloudflare, this is the one that comes to mind, will cut a fifth of workers in a move to an AI first model. I mean, 20% of those Cloudflare employees are being replaced by AI.

[John Connors]

Yeah, I think there's a lot of value in that narrative. There's efficiency in that narrative and there's margin in that narrative. But I think when we look across the rest of the industries and the rest of the economy, my prediction is like through the last four or five cycles. As economist Robert Shiller has pointed, we love this narrative. You fall in love with this narrative, but it tends to not play out the same the way we expect.

[Tim Stenbeck]

So we know AI was a big part of this survey. This is your annual survey.

[John Connors (continued) / Cincinnati Insurance Announcer]

Right?

[Tim Stenbeck]

You do it. I think it's your fifth one that you've done. Just got about 30 seconds left here. What was the biggest change from last year?

[John Connors]

I think the piece about CEOs confidence in their strategy. I think there was a lot of uncertainty in last year's data and now they seem to be leading and feeling much more confidence in almost they've normalized the uncertainty.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Normalizing the uncertainty certainly feels like that. You see that play out in the financial markets, that's for sure, because they seem to normalize the volatility and uncertainty that's out there. John, thank you so much. Appreciate it. John Connors.

[John Connors (continued) / Cincinnati Insurance Announcer]

Yeah, you bet.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Be well. He's the CEO of Boathouse, an advertising marketing communications firm, joining us from Boston on this Wednesday. All right, folks, we're getting ready to wrap up.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, I just want to read a headline from Cisco. It's cutting some jobs in a bid to focus on a fast growing market. Shares of Cisco in the after hours, Carol.

[Tim Stenbeck]

They're Moving higher, up 15% as we speak. So cutting jobs, as you said. I that impact.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Host]

This is the Bloomberg businessweek daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify and anywhere else you get. Your podcasts listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm eastern on bloomberg.com, the iHeartradio app, TuneIn, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live Every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal. I tell myself it's not about comparing, but then I start wondering, what can they lift? Are they adding more weight to their barbell than I am? And suddenly I'm not training. Then I realize my journey is not theirs. I've earned every step. So I smile. My smile is the shape resilience takes to keep me moving, to put more smiles out into the world. Colgate has supported female athletes for over 50 years with the Colgate Women's Games, the nation's longest running indoor track and field series for girls and women. Colgate, your smile is your strength.

[Tim Stenbeck]

Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile with

[IBM Representative]

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[Tim Stenbeck]

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[IBM Representative]

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[Carol Massar]

But that's weird.

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