Fed Cuts Rates by Quarter-Point; Powell Cites Weakness in Jobs

Summary

Bloomberg Businessweek — September 17, 2025

Episode: "Fed Cuts Rates by Quarter-Point; Powell Cites Weakness in Jobs"

Overview

In this episode, hosts Carol Massar and Tim Stenovec break down the latest Federal Reserve interest rate decision, featuring in-depth analysis by Danielle DiMartino Booth, CEO and Chief Strategist at QI Research and former Dallas Fed advisor. Also featured is California gubernatorial candidate Ethan Penner discussing his reform agenda. Other segments include an exclusive on Tesla’s new door handle design and reporting on a headline-making mortgage controversy involving U.S. officials. The discussions encapsulate key economic, political, and business trends in the U.S., focusing on monetary policy, jobs data, state politics, and company innovation.

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1. The Fed's Rate Cut and Labor Market Weakness

Key Discussion Points

• Fed Cuts by 25 Basis Points:
  The Federal Reserve announced a 0.25% rate cut, citing a weakening labor market as a driving factor.

  • Danielle DiMartino Booth argues the cut should have been larger and more proactive.

• Fed Independence & Internal Debate:

  • DiMartino Booth emphasizes that Fed Governor Christopher Waller’s decision to go along with the committee (instead of dissenting) signals the Fed’s commitment to independence, even as data pushed for more aggressive easing.
    • "Waller's own research dictates that we should have been playing catch up because we didn't lower in May, we didn't lower in June or July. Yet he stood with the rest of the committee." — Danielle DiMartino Booth (04:09)

• Labor Market Focus:

  • Waller’s focus on “core private sector job creation,” removing health care and education (traditionally recession-proof), shows a sectoral job loss since April—a warning for the broader economy.
    • "When you net out health care and education...the last time we had a job created in the private sector was April." — DiMartino Booth (03:03)
  • Over 1.4 million full-time jobs lost so far in 2025.
  • Underemployment, especially among recent graduates, is at critical levels, with 77% of the U.S. population living in states with falling job openings.

• Mandates Conflict:

  • DiMartino Booth and Massar discuss the inherent conflict between the Fed’s inflation and employment mandates.
    • "The inflation and employment mandates are inherently conflicting. This was a 1978 tweak to the Federal Reserve Act that completely changed how the Fed operates." — DiMartino Booth (08:10)

• Structural Job Issues vs. Monetary Policy:

  • Hosts question whether deep labor market challenges are truly addressable by Fed rate changes, highlighting the impacts of technological shifts (AI, gig economy) and raising the possibility that fiscal—rather than monetary—solutions are required.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I don't think the Fed right now is very good for the American economy, let's put it that way." — Danielle DiMartino Booth (02:30)
• "Even with inflationary concerns...the Fed should have been lowering rates not just in July, but in June and in May as well." — Danielle DiMartino Booth (02:53)
• “Youth unemployment is at recessionary levels...companies are mired in uncertainty.” — Danielle DiMartino Booth (05:34, 09:41)
• “Should the Fed go back to being only an entity that fights inflation? Absolutely. We should make that happen yesterday.” — DiMartino Booth (08:10)

Timestamps

• 02:30–05:34 — Danielle DiMartino Booth on Fed policy, labor market data
• 06:31–08:37 — Debate on Fed mandates, inflation stickiness
• 09:07–10:09 — Structural issues in labor market; fiscal vs. monetary policy
• 10:37–11:08 — Impact of political uncertainty on business investment

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2. California's Gubernatorial Race and Policy Proposals

Key Discussion Points

• Ethan Penner’s Candidacy:

  • Real estate investor Ethan Penner (independent, not aligned with either major party) outlines an agenda focused on economic growth, regulatory reform, and homelessness.

• Tax Reform Plan:

  • Penner proposes eliminating state income and corporate taxes in favor of a 15% consumption tax, while ensuring revenue neutrality or growth.
    • “We will eliminate all state income tax, both corporate and personal...replace all state sales tax...with a single 15% consumption tax.” — Ethan Penner (16:34)
  • The plan would improve California’s Tax Foundation ranking from 49th to 3rd.

• Housing and Regulatory Streamlining:

  • Aims to combat housing shortages by reducing construction costs and streamlining approvals—moving from potentially five years to “five days” (or even 15 minutes) using AI-powered oversight.
    • “There's no reason that we can't use technology intelligently...we can have environmental beauty and environmental soundness and make it easy...to build the units that we actually need.” — Penner (18:32)

• Homelessness Solutions:

  • Advocates for public-private partnerships, modular housing, and stronger accountability in spending, emphasizing a "mandate for change."
    • "We've spent $25 billion in the last...four years, and all that's gotten us is nothing but 25% more homeless." — Penner (19:53)

• Political Independence:

  • Penner emphasizes humility and collaboration with both parties and federal government, distancing himself from political distractions.

Notable Quotes

• “I think that California has been so grossly mismanaged for so long...the quality of life has deteriorated so amazingly.” — Ethan Penner (14:01)
• "I'm not willing to accept that it's hard or impossible to do… if people like you and I don't commit ourselves to positive change, the answer is 100% bad." — Penner (23:04)
• “Fighting with the president of the United States is not in the best interest of the people...I don't need to be the story.” — Penner (26:47)

Timestamps

• 13:35–26:53 — Ethan Penner interview, including tax plan, housing, and politics

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3. Tesla’s Door Handle Redesign: Safety & Innovation

Key Discussion Points

• Exclusive Interview:

  • Matt Miller and Hannah Elliott speak with Franz von Holzhausen, Tesla's longtime design chief, about safety-driven redesigns of Tesla’s vehicle door handles.

• Safety Concerns:

  • After reports of first responders struggling to open doors after accidents and regulatory scrutiny (especially in China), Tesla is developing a mechanism that combines electronic and mechanical releases in one intuitive handle.
    • “The muscle memory to go to...what you know is right there. So you just pull a little bit further on the lever and...you have the mechanical release.” — Franz von Holzhausen (30:57)

• Regulatory Response & Engineering Philosophy:

  • Von Holzhausen emphasizes Tesla’s “sensible solution” approach and continued focus on sustainability and affordability.
    • "He's really focused on sustainability...on a better way to travel for more people, for lower income people." — Tim Stenovec (32:43)

Notable Moments

• Revelation that von Holzhausen is a Connecticut native, not German as his name might suggest (33:54).

Timestamps

• 29:15–34:17 — Tesla segment with Matt Miller & Hannah Elliott interview

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4. Mortgage Controversy: Officials & "Principal Residence" Pledges

Key Discussion Points

• Pulitzer-winning Reporter Zach Meider on Mortgage Pledges:

  • Examines treasury officials and Fed Governor Lisa Cook occupying, or pledging to occupy, two primary residences on different mortgages.
  • Distinguishes between paperwork errors and intentional fraud, noting that such situations are not uncommon among officials, and typically are the result of administrative oversights rather than malfeasance.
    • “Maybe just because these two pieces of paper are filed saying you're going to live in two different places, it doesn't mean that you've necessarily committed mortgage fraud.” — Zach Meider (41:46)

• Legal and Political Implications:

  • The case continues against Lisa Cook, but there is “a pretty good argument that this wasn’t fraud at all and that maybe it was just a matter of not filing...paperwork in the right order.” (40:16)

Notable Quotes

• “It's probably not all that rare for people to actually do it because of fraud. But in all of these cases...there's often an innocent explanation...” — Zach Meider (40:16)
• “If people like you and I don't commit ourselves to positive change, the answer is 100% bad.” — Ethan Penner (23:04)

Timestamps

• 37:03–45:10 — Mortgage controversy explanation with Zach Meider

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5. Additional Notables

• AI and Business Innovations:
  • Multiple mentions of Siemens Xcelerator and Amazon Business, emphasizing the continuing role of technology and AI in improving productivity and business operations.

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Summary Table of Key Segments

| Time | Segment | Key Speakers | |-------------|----------------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------| | 02:30–11:08 | Fed Policy, Labor Market, Mandates Conflict, Market Impacts | DiMartino Booth, Hosts | | 13:35–26:53 | CA Gubernatorial Race, Tax/Housing/Homelessness Reform | Ethan Penner, Hosts | | 29:15–34:17 | Tesla Door Handle Redesign, Safety & Regulatory Compliance | Matt Miller, von Holzhausen, Hosts | | 37:03–45:10 | Mortgage Allegations Against U.S. Officials | Zach Meider, Hosts |

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Conclusion

This episode offers a rich exploration of the intersection between government policy and economic realities—from the Federal Reserve's calculated moves amid labor market challenges, to innovative proposals in state politics, and evolving corporate responsibilities in product safety and transparency. The candid interviews and in-depth discussions yield practical insights into the complexity of today’s economy, governance, and business landscape.

Transcript

[Carol Massar]

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[Ethan Penner]

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[Tim Stenovec]

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[Ethan Penner]

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[Tim Stenovec]

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[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

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[Carol Massar]

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[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

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[Carol Massar]

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[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

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[Carol Massar]

Learn more on USA.siemens.com AI Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News this is Bloomberg Business Week Daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast podcast with Carol Massar and Tim Stanweck on Bloomberg Radio. We want to stay on the Fed decision and the financial market outlook. Back with us is Danielle DiMartino Booth. She's CEO and chief strategist at the research and analytics firm QI Research. She's a former advisor at the Dallas Fed. She is the author of Fed Up. An Insider's Take on why the Federal Reserve is Bad for America. That was published back in 2017 when there was some momentum around the Fed. And so she is back here in our Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Do you still believe the Fed is bad for America? America?

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

I don't think the Fed right now is very good for the American economy, let's put it that way.

[Carol Massar]

Okay.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

You know, but I do think that the Fed made a genuine stand for Fed independence today.

[Tim Stenovec]

Hmm.

[Carol Massar]

Okay, lots of unpack there. So wait, do you agree with their decision today?

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

I think it should have been a 50 basis point rate cut.

[Carol Massar]

Even with inflationary concerns that are out there.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Even with inflationary concerns that are out there. Christopher Waller gave kind of.

[Carol Massar]

He didn't dissent.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

He did not dissent. And that, that, that he could have. That is the biggest news of the day, actually.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Because Waller directed us to what he calls core private sector job creation. What that does is it looks at private sector job creation and it nets out education and health care. We've had, you know, you guys have had a few really good articles on that since the latest employment report. In any event, when you net out health care and, and education, what we call recession proof industries. The last time we had a job created in the private sector was April. Meaning according to Waller's benchmark, the Fed should have been lowering rates not just in July, but in June and in May as well, because that's how long we've seen this private sector deterioration. And then we get June. Right, which has got a negative number in front of it, the pandemic notwithstanding. We haven't seen a negative print in front of non farm payrolls in real time, mind you, fairly real time since September of 2010. So it's been a very long time since we've seen the job market weakened to the extent that it has. And Waller would agree with that. And yet he stood firm with the rest of the committee today.

[Tim Stenovec]

So onto your statement that the Fed made a good case for its independence today, what was that?

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

It was that. It's exactly what I just described. Waller's own research dictates that we should have been playing catch up because we didn't lower in May, we didn't lower in June or July. Yet he stood with the rest of the committee. He may well have given up a shot at being chair and the betting markets had him in the top position going in. Of course he could not be interviewed these last few days because the Fed was in blackout.

[Tim Stenovec]

Isn't that a good thing for markets then? Isn't that a good thing for, for people who are concerned?

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Yes.

[Tim Stenovec]

That there is political pressure on this entity.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Yes, because they pushed back against the political pressure through that prism. And through that prism alone, the right thing was done today. That being said, they really do need to find some time to catch up to the economy, despite what's happening with the potential for tariff pass through.

[Tim Stenovec]

Okay, so let's talk about that a little bit because I remember last time you were in here, July 29, it was the day before the most recent Fed decision before this, you came on and you said the under Underemployment is such a big issue in this country and we're not looking at it the right way. What I took away from our conversation was your evidence that there were all these people out there who were essentially doing gig work, who wanted to be working full time and the effect that that's having on the economy. Does the Fed understand that in your view?

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Well, the Fed staff certainly does understand what's happening. We've had more than 1.4 million full time jobs lost since the beginning of this year. And we had a great big boost the labor force because the census had us at a couple of million people into the population. No, I think the Fed understands, or at least the Fed staff, they've all been given these presentations. They understand the magnitude of, of what's facing the job market. It's not a, it's not a lack of understanding, it's a lack of recognition because they're under attack. But the Fed completely understands that, that incomes are under strain, that the only thing that the class of 2024 can say if college graduates is, you know, at least for better than the class of 2025. I talk to college age students all the time. The jobs are just not there. And you know, youth unemployment is at recessionary levels. We have 77% of states in the United States. 77% of the population is in states with falling job openings. I mean, you got.

[Carol Massar]

What can the Fed do by cutting rates that will. Because what if it is because of AI? Like what is it if there are structural changes that are going on in the labor market that a rate should.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Change the Federal Reserve act to no longer have the employment mandate. You cannot ignore a weakening job market.

[Carol Massar]

But, but again, I would go to. If it's not the Fed, Fed, they've got to look at inflation. There's a dual mandate and you know, inflation, it's sticky. It's been sticky for a while, right?

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

We've got sticky. It absolutely has. And yet we're not seeing the fact that According to Redfin, 80% of the major metropolitan areas in this country have falling home prices. That's not filtering through to the cpi, nor will it yet, because there's typically, according to Fannie Mae, a six quarter lag between when you actually start to see home prices falling. This is also, we've also seen this in Case Shiller four months in a row now. But once you see that, it's a very long time before you get that deflationary impulse that's evident in the cpi. But it's Coming.

[Carol Massar]

But don't you think about Danielle, I think about this a lot in terms of what's going on in the economy, especially post pandemic, that there are people who are, have great jobs, are in the market, they're doing okay, and then there's a lot of the economy that isn't. And I don't know if that is the result of Fed policy or more policy, that maybe our lawmakers in Congress need to think more broadly, not about political contributions that get them back into office and companies.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Amen to that.

[Carol Massar]

But rather thinking about all of America.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

So, you know, I wrote a whole book about it.

[Carol Massar]

I think I'm going to get off my soapbox.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

No, no, but, but you're, but you're on the right side.

[Carol Massar]

But I'm just saying that I don't know if it's the Fed responsibility here.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

The inflation, I mean, if you're speaking philosophically, the inflation and employment mandates are inherently conflicting. This was a 1978 tweak to the Federal Reserve act that completely changed how the Fed operates. Should the Fed go back to being only an entity that fights inflation? Absolutely. We should make that happen yesterday. That, however, is an act of Congress.

[Carol Massar]

So in other words, and the Fed has done the right thing. They're watching inflation. Inflation is getting until they're let off the hook.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

They still have that employment mandate.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I don't know what the answer is. I think, I think you could even see from Jay Powell, although I think it's pretty remarkable that the markets kind of went back to where they were. And you do see the treasury trade kind of saying, all right, we had inflation, it's a problem. So, you know, we're going to do the work maybe for, for the central bank.

[Tim Stenovec]

So then if you believe that that's what the Fed should be focusing on, what is the right way to challenge the labor market right now or the right way to ignite the labor market to get it back to full employment?

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Well, as I said, outside of health care and education, we have not seen a single job created in the private sector since April. The private sector must be re engaged. And that's not going to be Jay Powell knocking on somebody's door and saying, re engaged. I just gave you another 25 basis point rate cut.

[Tim Stenovec]

But is it, do you think that will take something on the fiscal side of things? Will it take, I mean, look, the.

[Carol Massar]

Companies are getting tax cuts already. The CEOs are there at the White House. They're making large investments in The United States, also overseas. I know, but that's what I'm trying to understand. I mean, there's the opportunity to have that conversation.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Yes, there is.

[Tim Stenovec]

Yeah.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

At the moment what we're seeing is capital expenditure plans get cut. That's what we're seeing in every single regional Fed survey. They remain in contraction. Backlogs remain in contraction. Companies are mired in uncertainty. There are a lot of promises for investment going forward that even companies who think they're investing in tomorrow have now just, oh, I don't know, pull their plans back to not be able to start construction until 2026 in South Carolina.

[Tim Stenovec]

Where's the uncertainty coming from? Is it tariff policy?

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

It's coming from every policy coming out of the White House. And I don't make a political statement when I say that at all. But whether you're talking about geopolitics or economics, it is literally a moving target. And it's very difficult to make long term investment decisions in prosperity, in plant and equipment. Commit to saying we're going to be the next generation of manufacturers in this kind of an environment in which you cannot plan.

[Carol Massar]

So that uncertainty that comes from the White House and the criticism that comes from the White House. Do you see the impact of politics in this decision?

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Oh, absolutely.

[Carol Massar]

And is it because of the uncertainty coming out of the. Is that what you're saying or no, no.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Until. Until a certain gentleman stops being the bully on the playground and calling a certain somebody else too late. I think that there's every single reason in the world for the Fed to be in a defensive posture because its independence is under a full frontal attack.

[Carol Massar]

All right, we got to leave it there. Good, good. Heated. I love. Danielle DiMartino Booth, Chief CEO and Chief Strategist Research, joining us right here in our Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio.

[Tim Stenovec]

Stay with us. More from bloomb. Coming up after this.

[Carol Massar]

Pinpointing the genetic changes that predispose us to disease. Identifying the roots of mental illness. Treating congenital anomalies even before birth. At Boston Children's Hospital, we're investing in children's health today to ensure the well being of adults tomorrow. As home to the world's largest pediatric research enterprise and more than 260 specialty programs, Boston Children's is where the world comes for answers. Learn [e-mail] these days, AI can help.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

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[Carol Massar]

How can you grow your business from idea to industry leader? Bring your vision to life with smart business buying tools and technology from Amazon Business. From fast free shipping to in depth buying insights and automated purchase approvals, they deliver everything you need to achieve your goals. It's not easy to stand out from the crowd. Simplify how you stock up to get ahead. Go to amazonbusiness.com for support. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube. The gubernatorial race in California definitely picking up momentum just a little bit more than a year away. We featured a few possible candidates on air and our next guest launched his own bid to become California's next governor. Targeting voters disillusioned with Democratic rule. But Tim not ready to vote Republican.

[Tim Stenovec]

Our next guest launched his bid to become California's next governor. He's here in the studio with us, Ethan Penner. As we mentioned, he's 2026 candidate for governor of California. Also founder and managing partner of Mosaic Real Estate Investors. Ethan, welcome. How are you?

[Ethan Penner]

I'm. I'm very busy.

[Tim Stenovec]

Well, you're, you're, you're going to run for governor of California, but you're in New York. Why are you in New York?

[Ethan Penner]

Hmm.

[Tim Stenovec]

Because you're here talking to us. Well, why do you, why do you want to run?

[Ethan Penner]

Well, I really didn't see anyone who was qualified to do the job raising their hand, and so I decided I would do it. I feel that we're in a desperate place. Place. I think that California has been so grossly mismanaged for so long. All the statistics bear that out. The quality of life has deteriorated so amazingly over the last decade and even two, and it's time for somebody with the real qualifications to do this job to step up. And that's what I decided I would do.

[Carol Massar]

What would you do differently? What don't you like? What needs to be changed that you think would change the course of California in what you would perceive as a good way?

[Ethan Penner]

There are a number of things, but the most obvious thing, the starter, is that we've repelled People. So we've been last in net migration for five consecutive years, which means people in the United States have preferred to live anywhere but California, which is shocking considering it's California.

[Carol Massar]

Right. It's pretty gorgeous.

[Ethan Penner]

And I think that we need to be more welcoming and inviting to businesses. We need to grow our economy. Our economy is important for everyone. It's important to create opportunities for our young people. But it's also important so that we have the funds to make good on the retirement benefit promises that people have, are counting on. So, so I would do. The first thing to do is change our tax policy.

[Carol Massar]

Well, let's talk about this, because our understanding is you are releasing a tax plan this week that would turn California from one of the least free friendly tax dates to one of the top five. So what details. That's a big broad statement. The devil's always in the details. So what specifically?

[Ethan Penner]

So the Tax foundation ranks all 50 states by either tax policy. We're currently ranked 49th and pro forma, my policy would move us to third according to the Tax Foundation.

[Carol Massar]

How do you do that? How do you do that? Well, and what do you do specifically? Because you also talked about needing revenues for things. So I'm just curious how you do that.

[Ethan Penner]

Yeah. So it would be. And importantly, Carol, it will be a revenue neutral to revenue growth plan. So everyone else, everyone that talks about changing our tax plan talks about cutting taxes. And I understand kind of the intuitive appeal to some people, but of course that really doesn't. The math doesn't work. We need to actually pay for the things we need in California to support our society. So mine is a revenue neutral. That will ultimately be a revenue growth idea. It's about replacing income tax with a consumption tax. Fundamentally, that's the plan.

[Tim Stenovec]

So explain the details there.

[Ethan Penner]

We will eliminate all state income tax, both corporate and personal. Wow, amazing. We will replace all state sales tax, including our horrible gasoline tax, and all of that will be replaced by a single 15% consumption tax on goods and services.

[Tim Stenovec]

But does, does California. Okay, so you're coming at this from the angle where California has been a net loss when it comes to migration.

[Ethan Penner]

Yes.

[Tim Stenovec]

Do you want. Can California handle more people? Because the real estate prices there. Well, in so many places and very desirable places to live are out of control.

[Ethan Penner]

Phenomenal question.

[Tim Stenovec]

But. But the challenge is on a local level because you have all these people that say, yes, we want more affordable housing, but do not build that multifamily house right here.

[Ethan Penner]

Our problem has really nothing to do with having too many people it has to do with too few housing units. So the Rand Corporation published a paper last year that showed that it costs $110,000 more to build an apartment unit in the state of California than in the neighboring state of Arizona or most other states for regulatory reasons, all driven by regulatory red tape. That's the second thing I'd have to do is really streamline our regulatory approval processes. So the tax plan is stage one, Stage two is the streamlining of regulatory processes.

[Carol Massar]

How do you think about it against a backdrop where climate change is certainly impacting California neighborhoods in a big way. And so Build Back has also got to think about how do you make it safer.

[Ethan Penner]

So environmental greatness is really at the foundation of California. I mean, you're from California and you know this. I take all of my vacations hiking in the nature of California. It's amazing, right?

[Tim Stenovec]

And so first trip to Yosemite a few months ago for Carol Massar.

[Ethan Penner]

It's incredible.

[Carol Massar]

Gorgeous.

[Tim Stenovec]

She was blown away.

[Ethan Penner]

Everything's incredible.

[Carol Massar]

Exactly right. And passing a massive wind farm to get there. So certainly embracing.

[Ethan Penner]

So I think that we, we have to be as vigilant as we've ever been about protecting our natural beauty and our resources. But. But we don't need 19 different organizations that a developer of an apartment has to go through an approval process for. We need one, one very good one powered by AI with great responsiveness. Rather than five years. How about five days to get your feedback? How about 15 minutes to get your feedback? There's no reason that we can't use technology intelligently and there's no reason we can't have both. Both the things we can have environmental beauty and environmental soundness and make it easy for people to build the units that we actually need to drop costs and make living more affordable.

[Carol Massar]

One of the thing you're talking about too, when it comes to housing and Tim see it, you know, we see it when we've been to Seattle. We live in New York City. Go anyplace where it's warm.

[Tim Stenovec]

Where it's warm. And there's a high cost of living.

[Carol Massar]

High cost. But the homeless populations and it's, you know, I went to college here in New York many, many years ago and it was a homeless problem. And here we are again in 2025 and we haven't figured this out. What you are looking to build some communities from my understanding, in rural areas for homeless people to live in. How would you fund that? How long do you, would you expect it to take to get that done? How do you how do you roll that all out?

[Ethan Penner]

So it gets back to the original question of bringing true competence, the required competence to lead the state at this moment. We need the skills that I bring to the table. We need an understanding of how to build things. We need an understanding and appreciation for how to have transparency. It's not that we don't have the money. We've spent $25 billion in the last state money in the last four years, and all that's gotten us is nothing but 25% more homeless. So nothing's been solved. We have systems that don't work. We have a management system that's, that's failing us. We don't know where the money is. There's no accountability.

[Carol Massar]

So how do you do this then? You're saying that with this consumption tax, you'll have the money to do this, and how do you get, how quickly can you get it built?

[Ethan Penner]

Well, so it's a combination of things. One is, yes, the money is there. Although we squandered so much money already, the money is there for this. Second of all, we have to use smart building. We, we don't have government. We need private, public, private partnerships. And my government will lean very heavily on private excellence to work in tandem with public oversight to get things done fast. And I think that modular housing is definitely one of the answers. Yeah, but we have to combine competence, a commitment to safety, and a love for our fellow people. Right. Especially I'm proud to be in California. We care for our most vulnerable neighbors. That will never change, but we need to do it the right way. These people, unfortunately, with all the money we've spent, still sleep on the pavement.

[Tim Stenovec]

We're speaking with Ethan Penner, 2026 candidate for governor of California, also the founder and managing partner of Mosaic Real Estate Investors. On the homelessness question, it obviously has to do with housing. It has to do with mental health. There's no easy solution, as we've, we've learned on the regular, on the regulatory side of things. You said for building housing, you want to streamline regulations, get rid of red tape, but how specifically do you do that? Because it's an easy thing to say. But as we're learning in the wake of the fires in, in Pacific Palisades and the waste removal going to New Calabasas and the landfill there, people are not happy about that. Like, how do you do this in a way that satisfies these constituents?

[Ethan Penner]

Well, I think it's top down, actually. So I think we have to set a standard from the, from the Governor's office in Sacramento. And that standard has to be. Look, if I get elected, it will be with a mandate for change, right? I'm the consummate outsider. I don't belong to either of the main parties. I've never had a day in political office. So I'm running for a mandate for change with specific policies in mind. And I believe the people's will will be heard through me and that will empower me to actually make change.

[Carol Massar]

But you understand, I mean, I do.

[Ethan Penner]

Understand, I understand bureaucracy very well. I've worked in big companies.

[Carol Massar]

But I'm just thinking about Elon Musk, Doge, even in the federal government. And yes, USAID dismantled, other offices or other departments dismantled. But it's not easy to kind of all of these regulatory checkpoints. I mean, how do you really do it when it gets down to it? How do you do it in.

[Ethan Penner]

You know, I'll tell you two things. One, I am not willing to accept that it's hard or impossible to do. And I'm going to commit myself fully to doing that. And I know for sure if people like you and I don't commit ourselves to positive change, the answer is 100% bad. So I'm going to commit myself and I'm going to do as good a job as I can. Second, I really do believe that most people in government and state government in California go into their jobs wanting to do the right thing for their people. I really do believe that. And I think that as a nonpartisan and a non career politician who's not trying to advance my career at all, I think I'm going to be very uniquely well received by the legislature because I won't be viewed as oppositional in any way.

[Tim Stenovec]

We got to talk property taxes. Do you think something has to change with property taxes in California? And the context is that somebody like my parents who've lived in the same house since the 1990s, pay basically nothing in property taxes thanks to the passing of a certain proposition many years ago. But if somebody were to buy that house, like, you know, the next family to own that house, the property taxes would be debilitating. And it makes it so people stay in homes for a very long time and contributes to the housing crisis, some critics say.

[Ethan Penner]

You know what? I don't believe that's true.

[Tim Stenovec]

Why?

[Ethan Penner]

I don't accept that. I think that. I think that we are, our society, our community is served well by continuity. And I think that having people be forced out of their homes because of appreciation, it denigrates our community it denigrates the continuity of our community. So I would, I would not try to change that policy. I think that's a wonderful policy.

[Carol Massar]

Got to ask you about Governor Newsom, his feud with the president, the president's attention on California, on many states. How would you posture yourself toward President Trump?

[Ethan Penner]

Well, I think that both parties are busy fighting with each other about the president, pro or against the president. And I feel that it's a gigantic distraction from the incompetence that they've brought to the table in actually doing their job for the citizens of California. I will not be engaged in that distraction. For me, I'm laser focused on serving the needs of the people in California who would be electing me, who I care for.

[Carol Massar]

But what do you do, though, Ethan, if President Trump, you do a policy and you are a social media Post at 7am in the morning of something he doesn't like and he says maybe we're gonna go down to California and talk to Governor Penner. Well, what do you do?

[Ethan Penner]

I think that every leader, Carol, has to approach their job with humility. And I don't see that as often as I would like. So Governor Penner would remember that Governor Penner is a servant for the people. And Governor Penner would understand that whatever he says or does, he has to take in mind is this in the best interest of the people who he's serving and fighting with the president of the United States. It's not in the best interest of the people. Okay. This is definitely not so. I would try to have a workable relationship with, with both legislators, legislature that I would need to work with, but also the federal government because as you point out, that's a very important relationship, whether it's this president or or another president. It's not about my personality and the personality of another, which I think unfortunately we see today becoming the story. I don't need to be the story. My personality is not that important to me. My job as serving the needs of the people who elected me is the only thing I care about.

[Carol Massar]

Well, stay in touch as this year progresses. Love to see how things are going. Ethan, thank you so much.

[Ethan Penner]

Thanks for having me.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, I really appreciate it. Ethan Penner, 2026 candidate for Governor of California, founder and managing director of Mosaic Real Estate Investors. We did not get to talk about the CMBS markets.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Maybe next time around.

[Tim Stenovec]

Around next time.

[Carol Massar]

Ethan, thank you.

[Tim Stenovec]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily coming up after this.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

These days I can help you write emails, summarize long meetings and even create presentations that impress your most demanding customer. But how about industrial AI that uses data and simulation to boost productivity on the shop floor, AI tools that help you understand machine language and AI that helps you grow your business. With Siemens xcelerator, you can use AI services, software and consulting from a single trusted digital business platform. Plus you can find the right AI partner without having to search through hundreds of providers. That's AI for real from the global market leader in industrial AI, Siemens Xcelerator. Learn more at Siemens US Accelerator Every.

[Carol Massar]

Business starts with an idea. How can you go from daydreamer to industry leader? Amazon Business accelerates your journey with smart business Buying. Get everything you need to grow in one familiar place, from office supplies to IT essentials and maintenance tools. Amazon Business takes the buying experience you know and love from Amazon plus tools that help you save costs and make insights based decisions ready to bring your visions to life. Learn [e-mail] your next product launch is coming fast.

[Tim Stenovec]

Don't let billing slow you down. Legacy systems can't handle usage based billing. That means your team is stuck gluing code together, piecing through spreadsheets and running ad hoc queries just to figure out what to bill. With Metronome, you can roll out new pricing in minutes instead of months, whether it's usage based, seat based or a hybrid model. Visit metronome.com to see how companies like OpenAI and Anthropic launch billing as fast as they launch products. That's metronome.com.

[Carol Massar]

This is the Bloomberg Businessweek Daily podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2:00pm Eastern on Apple Car Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 11:30 Hey.

[Tim Stenovec]

I want to get to some breaking news. Redhead crossing the Bloomberg terminal just in the last hour. Tesla working on a redesign of its vehicle door handles which have drawn scrutiny over safety issues. We've got Matt Miller with us. He's the co host of Open Interest on Blue Bloomberg TV and the Hot Pursuit podcast with Hannah Miller. Matt, this news coming thanks to an interview that you and Hannah did with somebody at Tesla. It's longtime design chief. What can you tell us? Yeah, Hannah Elliott first of all. Oh, Hannah Elliott. Did I say Hannah Miller? She she hooked up this interview with Franz von Holzhausen. She ran into him at the Tesla Diner in Los Angeles.

[Carol Massar]

She goes to that diner after that. Sounds like a fair amount.

[Tim Stenovec]

And, and she said hey, come on. Our podcast, it's called called Hot Pursuit. You can find it on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. And, yeah, we asked him about the door handles because, you know, Bloomberg Businessweek wrote this story about people having difficulties getting out, or first responders even more concerningly having difficulties opening doors from the outside after accidents. And what he told us, and of course he designed everything from the Model S to the Cybertruck, is that their response is a new door opening mechanism where, for example, you push a button, the lighter press, opens it electronically, but if the battery's dead and you panic, you push harder, and that activates a mechanism that opens it just like a normal door would. Lucid kind of has this in the opposite direction. You pull a little bit and it opens electronically, but if you're panicking, pull harder, it opens mechanically. So it's pretty cool.

[Carol Massar]

We actually have some of that interview with Tesla's longtime design chief that you and Hannah did. Let's listen in, everybody.

[Tim Stenovec]

We actually have a mechanical release that's basically right at the electronic one, too. And we're combining the two. So, you know, in the moment that you're in a panic situation, the muscle memory to go to, you know, what you know is right there. So you just pull a little bit further on the lever and. And you have the mechanical release. So that's something that we're working on. Yeah, and it's in the cars now. All right, so if there is then a China ban, you're ready to roll that out. So that. Well, actually, the ban, I guess the Chinese issue is the flat outer door handle. So would you do something? Would you make a change? Like, you know, Ferraris have that little crease you can reach into. Is there. Is there some idea about that on the outside? Yeah, we're working on it right now. And just looking at the, you know, the. The details of the regulation, if and when that happens, and we'll have a really good solution for that. I'm not.

[Carol Massar]

I'm not worried about that. It makes sense, you know, I know.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Like, it's one thing for us adults.

[Carol Massar]

To know that, but for kids, you know, it's a little bit different to expect a kid to know how to go for. For a manual release.

[Tim Stenovec]

Yeah.

[Ethan Penner]

So the idea of combining the electronic.

[Tim Stenovec]

One and the manual one together into one button, I think makes a lot of sense. It really helps the muscle memory of reaching for something every day is there, and so you intuitively just grab the same thing and you're free.

[Carol Massar]

All right, so that's Franz von Holzhausen, Tesla's Longtime design chief catching up with Hannah Elliot and you. Anything that surprised you in the conversation. I love that they're kind of moved pretty quickly. I mean, understanding this is a pretty serious situation.

[Tim Stenovec]

Yeah, it's a serious situation. And not only has Beijing acted with potentially new regulation, at least look into it, but the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, nhtsa, is also looking into it. Yeah, I thought it was quite cool that rather than reacting defensively, as you might, I thought the same thing happening. He was like, you know what, let's just find a sensible solution. He's really focused on sustainability. He's really focused on a better way to travel for more people, for lower income people. And don't forget, that was the initial idea of this car company. Obviously they make these luxury vehicles now and we think of them for, you know, $100,000 cybertrucks. But the goal is or always has been to fight climate change. And they've always been trying to make a lower priced vehicle. They kind of achieved that in a Model Y, but they think they can get the price lower. And Franz has been there from the start, so he's really focused on those goals.

[Carol Massar]

All right, great stuff. And everybody can.

[Tim Stenovec]

He's not German. That was what surprised me the most.

[Carol Massar]

What is Swiss?

[Tim Stenovec]

Franz von Holzhausen.

[Carol Massar]

What is.

[Tim Stenovec]

He is not German. He's from Connecticut.

[Carol Massar]

Oh, what?

[Tim Stenovec]

Greenwich? We live in the melting pot, Carol.

[Carol Massar]

We love the melting pot pot. Matthew Miller, thank you so much. Be sure to check out the full conversation that Matt and Hannah had with him. You can find it on his podcast. It's the Hot Pursuit podcast. Catch it on Bloomberg Radio and of course, wherever you find your own podcasts and you download them.

[Tim Stenovec]

Franz joining Matt and Franz joining Matt. And that's how you say it in Connecticut. Matt, France and Hannah from the Tesla robo van. I was.

[Carol Massar]

You can see where he was.

[Tim Stenovec]

Yeah, you can see it. I've never seen an interior that looks like this. It's a, it's, this is a planned futuristic mass.

[Carol Massar]

At the diner?

[Tim Stenovec]

No, I don't know if it was at the diner, but that thing looked like something out of the future. I was like, what is that thing?

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, it is pretty.

[Tim Stenovec]

Check out the podcast. The video portion too.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, it's. It's also on the bloomberg [e-mail]. check out the story.

[Tim Stenovec]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily coming up after this.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

These days, AI can help you write emails, summarize long meetings, and even create presentations that impress your most demanding customer. But how about industrial AI that uses data and simulation to boost productivity on the shop floor. AI tools that help you understand machine language. AI that helps you grow your business. With Siemens xcelerator, you can use AI services, software and consulting from a single trusted digital business platform. Plus you can find the right AI partner without having to search through hundreds of providers. That's AI for real from the global.

[Carol Massar]

Market leader in industrial AI.

[Danielle DiMartino Booth]

Siemens Accelerator. Learn more at Siemens US Accelerator.

[Carol Massar]

How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support [e-mail] your next product launch is coming fast.

[Tim Stenovec]

Don't let billing slow you down. Legacy systems can't handle usage based billing. That means your team is stuck gluing code together, piecing through spreadsheets and running ad hoc queries just to figure out what to bill. With Metronome, you can roll out new pricing in minutes instead of months, whether it's usage based, seat based or a hybrid model. Visit metronome.com to see how companies like OpenAI and Anthropic launch billing as fast as they launch products.

[Carol Massar]

That's metronome.com you're listening to the Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube. All right, let's get to the most read story on the Bloomberg Today. It's been there all day. It's about how like Fed Governor Lisa Cook, U.S. treasury Secretary Scott Besant has made Tim some contradictory mortgage pledges.

[Tim Stenovec]

Secretary Besson once agreeing to occupy two different houses as his quote principal residence at the same time. The story by Anthony Cormier and Zach Meider. Zach joins us with more on their reporting. Zach is Bloomberg News Reporter, Pulitzer Prize winning Bloomberg reporter. He joins us here in our Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio.

[Carol Massar]

Just an amazing reporter I like to lay it out for.

[Tim Stenovec]

Well this story is getting pick up far and wide. Everyone's picking up this story. Tell us about your reporting. What did you find?

[Zach Meider]

Sure. So when you saw the President try to fire Lisa Cook, he said you signed. You signed one piece of paper saying you're going to live in Michigan and another promising you're going to live in Georgia. Two different houses at the same time as a condition of getting mortgage like.

[Carol Massar]

Your primary residence, Right?

[Zach Meider]

Yes. And he's saying maybe that's fraud. We don't know, but it's enough to fire you. And so we, and I think a lot of other people in the press got curious about, well, is she the only person that this has ever happened to? And by the way, I should mention that she said she's done nothing wrong. And she subsequently, you know, documents have come to light to say, at least in one case, the bank was understanding this was going to be a vacation home. So we looked in, it turned out that the Treasury Secretary himself had also signed, agreed to two different, to live in two different places at the same time.

[Tim Stenovec]

There's the important, important context in your story and what you learned, too, from the reporting as far as who represented the Treasury Secretary in the signing of these documents. Talk a little bit about that.

[Zach Meider]

Sure. So first of all, he didn't sign them himself. He gave power of attorney to a lawyer who sign on his behalf. But the bigger difference is there's really no chance that what Besson did could possibly have been mortgage fraud because both of the mortgages were from the same bank. It was all part of one big deal. It was one lender. So it wasn't like he was tricking one lender into thinking it was his primary residence and then going to a different lender and getting a loan.

[Tim Stenovec]

So how is that different than the allegations against Lisa Cook?

[Zach Meider]

So with Cook, she refinanced her longtime home in Michigan and then she bought a condo in Georgia from a different bank a couple weeks later. And, and, and in that mortgage signed a, a clause saying she would live there for the next year. And she, which she had also done in her Michigan one. Now, subsequently, a document came to light, say, showing that in the, in the, in the Atlanta case, it looks like the bank was, had the understanding that this was actually going to be a vacation home. So the question is, well, why did it get papered this way? And you can ask a similar question about Besson. Clearly, the bank didn't expect him to split himself in half and live in both places. And yet the paperwork got filed that way.

[Carol Massar]

Yet he said it, right, that he said that both would be his principal residents.

[Zach Meider]

He, it's, it's, he agreed to both of those mortgages, which both of them obligated him to live in in those two different places.

[Carol Massar]

I mean, I don't know. I'm assuming, Zach, you and the team are like, looking at this, as you said. I mean, we've been talking about this in the newsroom that we're thinking, gosh, you know, didn't the government, when they thought about kind of going after Lisa Cook, think about, hey, anybody else had this situation? What are you finding out as you reported out this story? But just in general, is this common?

[Zach Meider]

I don't know about common, but, you know, there's another cabinet secretary, the Secretary of Labor, who has kind of a. A fairly similar, you know, two mortgages two months apart in two different states where she's pledging to live there for the next year. So it's not super uncommon because we've found a few. Just, just in looking at the top, top officials in the government, it's probably not all that rare for people to actually do it because of fraud. But in all of these cases, the, the people involved or documents we've obtained show that they have at least a pretty good argument that this wasn't fraud at all and that maybe it was just a matter of not filing the, the, the paperwork in the right order. Typically, these things are everyone signs basically the same mortgage agreement, and then if you have a second home, you sign another thing called the second home rider, which waives that occupancy clause. So if somebody forgets to put that in front of you and to file it, then maybe it just kind of slips through the cracks and no one cares unless you happen to be on the Fed board.

[Tim Stenovec]

As you and the team write, Charles Rich had power of attorney to sign Secretary Scott Besant's documents on behalf of him. Rich, who signed the documents, wrote that bank of America was fully aware that the Provincetown property was not a principal residence and waived any requirement that it be used as a principal resident. There was absolutely Nothing improper about Mr. Besson's loan applications with which he was minimally involved as he had delegated delegated authority to me. So is it the end of the story?

[Zach Meider]

So, just to be clear, our story isn't saying that Besson did anything wrong. Rather, it's saying that maybe just because you. These two pieces of paper are filed saying you're going to live in two different places, it doesn't mean that you've necessarily committed mortgage fraud. Clearly, in Besson's case, he didn't. And in a lot of the other cases that we've seen, there's often an innocent explanation that really, you know, means that it's, it's, it's. It's more of like a paperwork error.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, I do think about that. Right. Just, you know, getting it wrong. As you said, either not signing Something or something not getting done.

[Zach Meider]

If you guys have ever been to a closing for a house, you're asked to sign about 10,000 pieces of paper. It's like you get. Your hand gets tired from writing. I don't think there's that many people who've read every single word on every page. I certainly haven't.

[Carol Massar]

I mean, when I think of Margaret, I don't know. When you think of mortgage fraud, I think think of something nefarious. Yeah, I kind of do.

[Tim Stenovec]

Like intent.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah.

[Zach Meider]

Right.

[Carol Massar]

Like a plan to kind of deceive either a lender or someone.

[Zach Meider]

I don't think it's that unusual, though, for somebody to buy a vacation home and when they get the mortgage, tell the. Tell the lender they're going to live there, even if they really won't. That would technically be fraud if they really intended to deceive the lender and get a more favorable interest rate.

[Carol Massar]

Right.

[Zach Meider]

But we haven't seen that in Besson's case.

[Carol Massar]

No.

[Tim Stenovec]

And is there anything we have to understand about the difference between the words principal and primary?

[Zach Meider]

The word in the, in the, in the papers is always principal.

[Tim Stenovec]

It's always principle.

[Zach Meider]

Yeah.

[Tim Stenovec]

Okay. Yeah.

[Zach Meider]

And I think it's just. It basically means, you know, this is your real house. Right. And. And no other. Yeah.

[Carol Massar]

You know, I also think it's different. You know, you guys say this, how the situations are an identical. And we've touched on this a little bit, Zach. But like Besants Mortgages two decades ago, signed by his lawyer, he obviously was wealthy. There was no concern about his ability probably to manage any kind of loans. Cook signed hers personally and much more recently. There are distinctions.

[Zach Meider]

Oh, there absolutely are. I think the common theme, though, is that if the Trump administration's view is that anyone who signs document, these documents that conflict with each other.

[Carol Massar]

Right.

[Zach Meider]

Needs to be removed from office, then there are actually other people in, in Washington who are in that same situation. Even if. And let me be clear, they didn't do anything wrong and are, you know, not only didn't commit mortgage fraud, but didn't do anything wrong in Besson's case. Probably wasn't even aware of it until we asked questions. A few.

[Carol Massar]

I can't help but feel that like there are lots of officials potentially right now looking at things right. And looking at their documents, documentation.

[Tim Stenovec]

Right. Saying wait a second. Going back and looking.

[Carol Massar]

Well, that everybody's looking at it and you're right. And it doesn't mean that anybody had intent to do something wrong. Is there. Does the investigation continue or not even investigation. But you guys continuing to look, the.

[Zach Meider]

Court case is proceeding with Lisa Cook. She's, she's contesting her the Trump's attempt to fire her. She's for, for the moment, she's participating with the Fed today.

[Carol Massar]

Right.

[Zach Meider]

And and so it's going to be up to the courts to decide. It could, it could come down to whether she actually did defraud a lender or not, but it may, it may not.

[Tim Stenovec]

And as we heard from Jay Powell today, he will not comment on a court case that's ongoing.

[Carol Massar]

No, he made it very, very clear. Interesting stories. We said it's the most read story on the Bloomberg Zach, thank you so much.

[Zach Meider]

Thanks.

[Carol Massar]

Always appreciate Zach Meider, Bloomberg News Reporter here. And of course you can read the entire story. Just head to The Bloomberg or bloomberg.com.

[Tim Stenovec]

This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast available on Apple, Spotify and anywhere else you get. Your podcasts listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5pm Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch us live Every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.

[Carol Massar]

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