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- [00:00]
IBM Representative
So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now a global workforce of 300,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94% of common questions, not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business IBM as industries
- [00:31]
Michigan Economic Development Representative
evolve faster than ever, companies need an environment that accelerates strategic growth, and Michigan delivers on that promise. From emerging startups to global enterprises, Michigan offers what executives value most a resilient, innovative ecosystem, diverse communities that attract top talent, and a quality of life that supports work life. Balance with our unified Team Michigan approach, businesses scale faster and compete at the highest level. Michigan Pure Opportunity Seize your opportunity At Michigan, small businesses are the pulse of every community. They bring people together, create opportunities and drive growth. Chase for Business helps business owners like you with personalized guidance and convenient digital tools all in one place. With that guidance and your determination, you can take your business farther and help build a brighter future for your community. Learn more@chase.com business chase for business make more of what's yours the Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JPMorgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2026 JPMorgan Chase Co. Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio news.
- [01:46]
Carol Massar
You're listening to Bloomberg Businessweek with Carol Massar and Tim Stanvick on Bloomberg Radio. If you've been on social media anywhere really over the past few years, then you've definitely seen her videos.
- [02:01]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Even before Kim Kardashian had kids, she was putting money away in a 529 for their education and retirement. I'm Mrs. How Jones, your faith personal finance expert. Here's why rich people love 529 plans. And you should too. A 529 plan is a tax advantage investment account for future education costs. By contributing to one, you'll likely get tax deductions and credits.
- [02:23]
Carol Massar
Kim Kardashian and 529 plans. That's the gift of Mrs. Dow Jones, also known as Haley Sacks. She's the author of Future Rich Person the New Rules for Building Wealth Even if you're stuck, broke and that billionaire will not text you back. Also, the host of the Financial Tea podcast, Haley Sachs. Welcome.
- [02:42]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So excited to be here.
- [02:44]
Carol Massar
Can I just say, like, this is not about me, but like I knew you way back when we really did
- [02:48]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
cheddar, those were the days.
- [02:49]
Carol Massar
These were the days.
- [02:50]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Look at us now.
- [02:52]
IBM Representative
I know.
- [02:52]
Carol Massar
And you know, you joined me on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange like a million years ago and all the traders were like, Mrs. Dow Jones is here. The question that I have for you is a very Bloomberg question.
- [03:03]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Okay.
- [03:04]
Carol Massar
The Dow Jones Industrial Average these days doesn't get a lot of love.
- [03:07]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes, I know.
- [03:08]
Co-host or Interviewer
Mrs. S and P 500 doesn't have the same plan.
- [03:12]
Carol Massar
How did you come up with the name that has stuck for so many years?
- [03:15]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You know, I always thought that Mrs. Dow Jones was about like being married to your own financial freedom and your future and that really comes from investing. But when I created the moniker, I didn't think at all about like, the legal implications of it. I was just like, this sounds fun, but, you know, I didn't think about the fact that like, it's the Dow Jones, like you don't really want to mess with Rupert Murdoch. They've been very kind to me, I want to say. But, you know, it could have gone either way.
- [03:40]
Carol Massar
You know, you've been doing this for a long time. I think even before the concept of influencer.
- [03:43]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
- [03:44]
Carol Massar
Was a thing.
- [03:44]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
- [03:45]
Carol Massar
Did you ever think you could grow it into the business, the brand, the book, the podcast that you've grown it into?
- [03:51]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You know, I think that you always have that vision for yourself, but it has taken so much work. I've done this for nine years. And when, like when you said when I started this influencing wasn't a thing. Now you see all the data, like, you know, kids all want to be influencers. It's this, you know, job that people aspire to, but it was something that I was doing on the side and pursuing really as a passion project. And so, I mean, I always dreamed it would be coming here, but I didn't. I was, I was betting on myself. I'm glad that we made it.
- [04:20]
Co-host or Interviewer
What was it though that made you. Because you studied film?
- [04:23]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I studied film.
- [04:24]
Co-host or Interviewer
So tell me how you got to this.
- [04:26]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
- [04:27]
Co-host or Interviewer
And like thought about. Because there's so many books as you know, and so many advice channels out there when it comes to investing and your financial well being. So tell us how you kind of got there. What was it that you said, wait, there's something I can share, I can build and help others with.
- [04:44]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So I had such a weird path to finance. I was a comedian. So like my first job was for David Letterman and then I was. And which was a gig working job. And then I was you know, working all these 1099 jobs, trying to build my career as a comedian and no one had ever taught me about money. I never learned it in school. And then I had this big break where I got a job for Lorne Michaels. So who started snl and it was a full time job. And actually my. The other person who got that same role is now on snl. It's Ben Marshall. Like the, I don't know if you guys watch snl, but the guy with the red hair, big star now. So happy for Ben. But like we were cohorts. But the first day of that job, I was so excited. I was like, yes, I finally made it. I'm like, you know, in corporate America, getting off the train at 8:00am, like, this rocks. And they asked me, they had the audacity, really to ask me about 401ks and health insurance and just all these things that no one had ever explained to me. And I was mortified because I didn't want to seem like, okay, they made a bad hire. And so then I went home that night as any self respecting, like millennial would. I think I probably stress ordered Thai food and was like googling all of these terms. And what I found was either information for women that was like so based in deprivation. Like, you know, I literally read an article about rewashing your paper towels about how you should never buy a precut ve vegetable from a grocery store. I'm sorry, that saves some time. Like you gotta.
- [06:13]
Co-host or Interviewer
Time is money.
- [06:14]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah, you got. Time is money. You know, just no lattes, of course, no avocado toast. Like it just made your life seem like it had to be so small.
- [06:20]
Co-host or Interviewer
It's always like, cut out the manicure.
- [06:22]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes. Like in your life, it's horrible. Or the information for men was about investing, but it was so jargon heavy and it was like, just not presented in a way that I really could understand. And so I was eager to find someone who would make it like aspirational to grow wealth. I couldn't find her, so I became her.
- [06:40]
Carol Massar
So you saw you, you saw that as an opportunity, but you don't just immediately put content out there and put yourself out there and realize that, oh, this works, right? Yeah, no, there's an uphill battle here. Yeah, there is a time it takes to like understand what resonates with your audience. You have to build that audience. Not easy.
- [07:02]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
It's so funny being on the book tour because I was looking back and like seeing when I was about to break 9,000 followers or 20,000 or 40,000. And I couldn't believe it. But it's also crazy how much social media has changed in that time because when I started, the way that finance was presented in like a humorous way on social media was through memes. And so I was. And the only one who's really left of that cohort is Liquidity, who still has a big presence. But there were like maybe six of us. Besides that, he stayed. Everyone else has, you know, sort of dissipated.
- [07:36]
Carol Massar
Still memes.
- [07:37]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Still memes. Exactly. And he's not really that public facing, but like he, you know, has branched his business out in a lot of different ways. He's done really cool things with it, but, you know, no. And no one was showing their face. He only showed his face about like a year ago. And so I. And this was before reels were a thing too. So I started to put up videos that I think were literally shot like horizontally on Instagram. It wasn't optimized for it at all. About these money topics, and that's where it sort of started from.
- [08:04]
Co-host or Interviewer
How did you figure out, though, like, there's so much stuff out there about, you know, pay yourself, save money, take advantage of, you know, your employer's 401k plan. How did you figure out? How do I, you know, learn about what really makes a difference, what makes sense? Because there's just so much again, and what's proven, like, how did you figure that out?
- [08:27]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
That's such a good question, Carol. I think that it really is about testing. Like, I mean, you guys are on air all the time too. I'm sure there's segments that go absolutely bananas that people really relate to and then you use that data. Like, I really learned that my audience loves to know about generational wealth. They want to know the secrets to that, or, you know, they want to know about how to optimize their benefits. They love to know about negotiating. But this is all because I've tried that content and then there's a lot of content that you don't see that doesn't work. You know, influencing or making videos online is a day by day game. So it's literally like you're getting a scorecard every day and you can sort of use that and recalibrate.
- [09:07]
Carol Massar
You've built this into a real business. I mean, I saw in part of the book promotion, I saw you talk about how much money you're making.
- [09:15]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
- [09:16]
Carol Massar
Can you share that? That's a big number.
- [09:19]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Well, I never share the exact figures, but it definitely is seven figure business. And I think the coolest thing is that I'm able to employ really great people and, you know, invest that back in the business and growing it. But I did share that I have brand deals that are over seven figures, which is pretty sick. I will. I'm using the word sick on Bloomberg. I think I'm the first person to do that.
- [09:41]
Co-host or Interviewer
But we've had other four letter words. Not as lovely as that one.
- [09:44]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
That's slang for really cool.
- [09:47]
Carol Massar
But like you said, it's a team.
- [09:49]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. And that's what's so funny about releasing a book, too, is it's like it's my name on the book, but it's so been so many people building it, so you really can't do anything on your own.
- [09:57]
Co-host or Interviewer
So, like, let's talk about what are, what are some of the mistakes, like, people do? Like, I have to say there was one thing, page 105, emotional regulation. Like, I do think about, you know, if you can take the emotion out of money, I feel like is so important.
- [10:13]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So important.
- [10:13]
Co-host or Interviewer
It's not easy.
- [10:14]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Or even when you think about people in relationships with money, like, the whole reason that no one talks about money in relationships is because of the emotional aspects. But if you just take that down a notch and you look at it as like, oh, this is a business decision, that we're getting married, of course you're going to get a prenup, because every business agreement has a contract.
- [10:31]
Co-host or Interviewer
Yeah.
- [10:31]
Carol Massar
So do it.
- [10:32]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah, so do it. Get a prenup.
- [10:34]
Co-host or Interviewer
No, because then it's very clear. Right?
- [10:36]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
- [10:36]
Co-host or Interviewer
We know what the rules are going into it. But it's. But I feel like money and how, especially with couples or just how people spend or even in, like a family, if you have siblings and you're older and you're doing a house or something together, like, you just how somebody uses their money, you can make judgment calls and you have to be very careful because you can, you know.
- [10:53]
Carol Massar
But I think why what you identified so early and like, it looks so simple and easy in hindsight to see this is that our generation is different than other generations. Like student loan debt, the cost of buying a home for those kids in college right now, going and finding that first job and dealing with the AI challenges like this is. And I feel like millennial personal finance is really having a moment right now. Maybe because we're all getting older. I don't know if that's what it is.
- [11:24]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
- [11:25]
Carol Massar
Or because we're learning and everybody's learning that the classic stuff that our parents were Told doesn't really work for us.
- [11:35]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
That is such a good point. And that's sort of why I wrote the book. It's called the New Rules of Building wealth. Because I read so many personal finance books. That's really how I educated myself to become Mrs. Dow Jones just by reading so much. And although I love a lot of those books in the canon, what I always would recognize was the information that they were giving was so outdated. And I think what's so cool about being a financial influencer is that I'm able to get real time data from my followers. So it's like I'm reading this book and it's like in the canon and everyone's like, this is the finance book that you need to get rich. And then it's like I'm in my DMs and people are complaining because since 2000, cost of living has gone up 67% but wages have gone up 7%. Or yeah, like you said, inflation, student debt, AI, all these things. And so there needs to be new rules that meet us where we are at now. And that's why I wrote this book, because I want it to be in the canon for the world that we're in.
- [12:30]
Co-host or Interviewer
So hey, let's talk about some of the rules. So I'm just sharing our producer Talia Sending. Like if someone is starting at their first step or they're deep in a hole with debt or don't have any savings, what is the first step you think someone should take to get their finances in order to.
- [12:47]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So the first step I would really recommend, and it's not rocket science, we've heard it before, but you have to have that emergency fund, like you've just got to get that through. You got to really power through and get that three to six months in a high yield savings account because even if you have high interest rate debt, you need to have the emergency fund because if you don't and you get into more debt, then you're just going to get deeper in the hole. So that's. And it also builds a lot of self esteem. So that's always, I would say like the first step. You got to start there.
- [13:14]
Carol Massar
What about if you have student loan debt and you want, you want to try to get out of it, but you also want to try to save.
- [13:19]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Well, you know something I talk about in the book is like, I think one of the old rules of building wealth is that all debt is bad, that we need to all be out of debt. But I mean, you guys talk to really Rich people all day, you know, they love leverage. Yeah. And so something that I explained in the book is.
- [13:33]
Co-host or Interviewer
And leverage does help make some people wealthier and in a big way.
- [13:37]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah. No matter where you're at on the financial scale too. Like you could be someone who's, you know, you're not a billionaire, but maybe you have student debt and it's below 7%, which is sort of the threshold of low interest rate debt. That's something in the book that I would say it's actually, okay, let's just pay the minimum on it and use whatever action money, extra money that you have left over on these other financial goals because you're going to be able to make more money than you would save paying that off aggressively.
- [14:04]
Co-host or Interviewer
What are the most common pitfalls or mistakes you see people fall into?
- [14:08]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You know, I think in this age of frictionless spending, it's really hard to hold onto your money. Like greed. Yeah. My parents generation, they were advertised to 500 times a day. We're advertised to 5,000 times a day. 20% of what you see online is an ad. And not only that, you have Apple pay on your phone and you're using it like Apple be paying. Like you're just, you know, tapping and you're going, it's not money, it's just a tap. And it is this form of emotional regulation which I think comes also from the culture. Like, you know, even when you think about Sex and the City and Carrie Bradshaw and she would always buy shoes instead of investing and like, you know, all the cool female characters in the canon are bad with money. It's sort of, you know, romanticized. And so I think that that's really what you have to work through first.
- [14:56]
Carol Massar
There's also a conversation happening about like, the psychology of money. When people are used to making a certain amount of money, they continue even if they make more money spending the same spending in the same way. So I'm curious about spending money and if people suddenly come into disposable income.
- [15:11]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah.
- [15:12]
Carol Massar
After working for a long time and living paycheck to paycheck.
- [15:15]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Like how they. Well, there was actually. Did you see that graph from Goldman Sachs about people who are making 300 to 400k?
- [15:22]
Carol Massar
Yes, I just heard about this.
- [15:24]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah.
- [15:24]
Carol Massar
So they say they're living paycheck to
- [15:26]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
paycheck more than people who make 75 to 100k. Because I think that it's so much of keeping up with the Joneses. When you get to that point, you're like, oh, this is my paycheck. I guess we should do private school. Maybe we need two cars.
- [15:36]
Carol Massar
But I would say that those people are probably also saving very aggressively. So maybe they're living paycheck to paycheck after. After investing in the emergency fund, after putting money aside in their four 1Ks and 529s. I would, I would venture to say, I don't know.
- [15:49]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I don't know.
- [15:50]
Carol Massar
I think it's all lifestyle creep.
- [15:51]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I think it's lifestyle creep. Wow. I think that you have to be really careful and like, that's why I preach so much in the book about automation. It's like, I don't, I wouldn't be a millionaire without automation. Like, it's, you need to be automating your finances. And when you get an increase in your salary, the first thing that you should do is increase the amount that you're contributing because you won't feel it right. But then it's going to have such a big difference.
- [16:13]
Co-host or Interviewer
It's like, it's. I always think of my mom, like, pay yourself first.
- [16:16]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You just do it right off the
- [16:17]
Co-host or Interviewer
top and you just don't even miss it. And you adjust to like, what's the pot? We are at Bloomberg. We track the market day to day. I'm just thinking about casual participants, folks who are just trying to understand the investing landscape. I have family who are not always will come up, like, what book should I read? What should I do? Is there anything that you regularly pay attention to when it comes to the financial markets and that you think maybe that's what people should check on? Like, what should they do to get an understanding?
- [16:45]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Well, you know, I think that reading financial books is really important. Like, that's a really great way. But there's something very different about understanding the markets and being like, good with money. Like in the book, I make it very clear that you don't need to be a genius. You really just need like seventh grade math and some index funds and some automation and you can get there. And so, but, you know, this is sort of a different flavor of person. Carol, you know, seems to be really interested in the markets, in which case I'd say you got to watch Bloomberg. You know, I love me a little cnbc. I subscribe to a bunch of newsletters. I love the Wall Street Journal. Like, you know, you have to, you read the publications and you, you know, track it as you go, but you have to make sure that you are getting your information from credible sources.
- [17:27]
Carol Massar
Is social media a credible source?
- [17:30]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
It is when you, you have to be thoughtful of social media has been so amazing in terms of promoting financial literacy, and we're even seeing it with Gen Z, that they are putting more into their 401ks than any generation. And I have to point to social media. Yeah, that's me as the reason that that's happening, because they have education at their fingertips that no one else did, but they also have access to a lot of scams.
- [17:53]
Carol Massar
Where do you see the best return on investment in content?
- [17:59]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Where.
- [17:59]
Carol Massar
Where are the people? Where are people following you and engaging with your content? Is it all Instagram?
- [18:04]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You know, I. Instagram is huge. Instagram's amazing. TikTok can go crazy, but, like, it's a very emotional process. Like, they could just give you, like, no views. No views, no views. And then you're getting like, 3 million. You're like, I'm big on 2. It's really hard to understand big ones on TikTok. Yeah. But, like, you know, Instagram is way more consistent, and I feel like I'm actually able to reach my audience, but I also really believe just in good content. Like, I'm not one of those creators who's ever gonna be like, the algorithm screwed me. Like, if something isn't working, we're gonna change it. Like, I need to move with the times. Like, I've been around for nine years. I wanna be around for a long time. And that's just gonna take a lot of flexibility, going where the eyeballs are and figuring out what's next.
- [18:44]
Co-host or Interviewer
Hailey, what's the question you get asked most often when people, like, know what you are, you know, what you do, what is your focus? What do you get asked the most?
- [18:52]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I mean, probably, like, what to invest in.
- [18:54]
Co-host or Interviewer
Really?
- [18:55]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah.
- [18:55]
Co-host or Interviewer
Specifically?
- [18:56]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah. What to invest in or how to negotiate.
- [18:58]
Co-host or Interviewer
Do you tell people that they should own a house? That it's a good goal?
- [19:02]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I don't know. I mean, I think that it can be an amazing lifestyle decision, but I don't think that it is the investment that, like, the American dream.
- [19:11]
Co-host or Interviewer
Do you think renting makes more sense?
- [19:12]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I mean, I am a millionaire and I rent. Yeah, come on. But it's like, if I had kids and, like, a family and I really wanted to choose my doorknobs, I might do it as just, like, an investment in my life, which I talk about in the book too. Like, not everything is about making money. You also need to leave room for lifestyle. But I think that this idea that you should make the biggest investment of your life, your house, is not smart.
- [19:31]
Carol Massar
Let's talk negotiating, because you I was thinking you don't really have to negotiate your salary.
- [19:36]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Me?
- [19:36]
Carol Massar
You don't. But you have to negotiate these brand deals.
- [19:39]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Well, so I have a manager who does it for me.
- [19:40]
Carol Massar
But you have negotiation tips in here? Oh, I talk about how to get a raise.
- [19:44]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
- [19:44]
Carol Massar
Oh, what's the right way to do that?
- [19:46]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So the first thing you need to do is have a wins folder. Like I think people think at work that, like, their boss is just every day taking notes like, wow, Carol, you did great today. Like, I'm going to write that down. Like, we're going to talk about that in your review. They're not. I'm sorry, you've got.
- [20:02]
Carol Massar
I keep track of the opposite, Carol.
- [20:04]
Co-host or Interviewer
Was that of the bad things?
- [20:06]
Carol Massar
Just kidding. There are none. That folder is empty.
- [20:10]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Oh, my God.
- [20:10]
Carol Massar
Sorry. Please.
- [20:11]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I know.
- [20:11]
Co-host or Interviewer
I love it. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
- [20:14]
Carol Massar
Use that in your original.
- [20:15]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You have to go in with a case around. Why? You deserve more money. That's number one. And then, you know, you've also got to make sure that you have a bat. Now, which is the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. Because if they come back and they say no, or they, you know, push back, then you need to be able to say, okay, well, I want to hire a higher. A higher title. I want to, you know, work from home. More things like that.
- [20:42]
Carol Massar
Batna page 72 of the new book, Future Rich Person, the new rules for building wealth. Even if you're stuck, broke, and that billionaire won't text you back. Haley Sachs is the author, probably better known as Mrs. Dow Jones. This is Bloomberg.
- [21:00]
Michigan Economic Development Representative
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Michigan Economic Development Representative
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- [21:17]
Microsoft Representative
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Microsoft Representative
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- [23:04]
PayPal Representative
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- [23:32]
Michigan Economic Development Representative
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