Lionel Laurent (2:40)

Thank you, Yann. Yes, and not just that, but for this first visit to the Middle east to happen at the end of February, just hours before war breaks out, it's kind of incredible. I think honestly it's speaks to the fact that this, this fund, this huge $2 trillion fund, it's, it's a kind of, it's a kind of passive fund. It's, it's mostly about index tracking. And as a result it's really skewed to the US and so without trying to draw a direct link, I would say that maybe it's not so surprising that Tangen would, would, would have sort of only followed the, the path, let's say, to the Middle east that everyone else has taken from hedge funds to others. I mean, he's pretty ensconced in Norway, so maybe has less of a kind of speculative bent when it comes to where, where he goes or the Middle East. So not that surprising. But clearly what is surprising that he would go just before war breaks out.

Carol Massar (3:31)

Yeah, Talk about timing, right? It means so much. Let's talk about your conversation with him, Lionel, because what's interesting is, as you say, it's an index tracking investor, but it is having to become more attuned to geopolitics. What did you get from him? Walk us through a little bit of what you wrote about his thinking about the world and how it may be or is changing as a result of this.

Lionel Laurent (3:56)

So I think that he, he was thinking a lot about complacency, I think, or about this idea that markets were calm because markets are calm and this was on Tuesday. Markets are a little less calm today, but still overall they're taking this, this in their stride. And I think his, he sees his role, he sees his job as also warning the Norwegian public who prosperity is tied to this fund and maybe global markets too, about the worst that could happen or the kind of risks around the corner. That's why there's been a lot of stress testing at his fund, really mapping out the worst case scenarios even before war broke out. And I think you really wanted to touch on those scenarios without predicting what's happening, mapping out potential scenarios. And that's why he talked about inflation. The, the not unlikely in his words, return of inflation and the fact that geopolitical tensions are clearly not going to calm down anytime soon. Those were his two kind of big scenarios on top of all the existing worries that we might have over AI bubbles and private credit and all that. So I think that that's what he sees his role as scenario planning and being able to say that to the market and to his stakeholders in Norway.

Tim Stenbeck (5:03)

And perhaps maybe ironic isn't the right word, but as you point out in your column, higher energy prices benefit Norway. I mean, that's after all what this $2.2 trillion fund has been built on. So if we do see energy inflation for an extended period of time, the country and its sovereign wealth fund could be a beneficiary of that.

Lionel Laurent (5:24)

Yeah, absolutely. He's, he's a very careful speaker on this topic and he did want to make clear that for him and his fund, obviously higher inflation, higher oil prices is on balance a negative, but as you point out is obviously a positive for country and it's all revenues. I should point out though that the fund accounts sometimes for 20 to 25% of the state's budget. So there is a kind of feedback loop that's not entirely positive.

Tim Stenbeck (5:50)

That's remarkable.

Carol Massar (5:52)

I mean, what struck you most in your conversation with him? I mean, we every day are having so many conversations that obviously when it comes to the US War in Iran, how long this goes on, we've already talked about the LNG market, the nat gas market, that there might be already, you know, it's going to be changed for years to come just trying to figure out the timing and overall the longer term impact. But in your conversation with him, and as you say, he's very careful, but I mean, what struck you the most?

Lionel Laurent (6:23)

I think, I think the fact that he sounded a bit different to everybody else in the room. I mean, he goes out of his way to say he's not a prognosticator. I do find it interesting that so many other fund managers in the room who were more active asset allocators were quick to say that this conflict would be confined to the region, would in the long run be manageable in terms of inflation. And I hear a lot more voices even today saying, well, this war could be over. When Donald Trump decides it could be over, it's not going to get out of hand. So I'm simply struck by the fact that here was someone who did not pretend to be a geopolitical analyst and did not pretend to be predicting what was going to happen, simply saying, well, okay, but on balance, here are two risks that I'm putting in my scenario bucket. And, and I'm not going to rule out the, the worst case scenario given

Tim Stenbeck (7:15)

that the fund is passive and geared toward US Equities. Was there any discussion or did it come up at all about changing an investment, changing his investments or changing the investments as a result of geopolitics.

Lionel Laurent (7:32)

Yes. So it's mostly passive, but there is an active component. So for example, the speed at which they deal with certain issues, they've raised this in the past on certain stocks, banking crises. As to the overall rules, they are up for debate. They're up for review actually in Norway right now. And I think that while I think for, for Americans and when they, when they encounter the rule debate when it comes to the Norway sovereign wealth fund, it's mostly about ethical guidelines and what some people dispragially call, you know, woke woke investing. Right. Oh, disinvesting from or divesting from Israeli stocks, for example, or those exposed to Gaza. I think what might be interesting though is if the rules change and there is more of a geographic diversification along with that, so more investment in Europe, that could be a really huge game changer, especially for Europe where he was quite keen to publicly say, you know, Europe is a bit of a sleeping beauty, really has to get its act together, unify its capital markets, reform its economy. It could be quite interesting to see this fund that is so exposed to the US Become less exposed to the US over time.

Carol Massar (8:34)

Yeah. And listen when we talk about, you know, where investment flows go as you remind us that the fund, about 1.5% of all listed shares is in its portfolio and you're talking about, you know, top holdings like in video and Apple. So you talk about the major exposure that it ultimately has. Lionel, thank you so much. I know it's late where you are, but we so wanted to talk about your story and share it with our audience. So thank you. Thank you. Lionel Laurent. He is a columnist for Bloomberg Opinion and highly recommend you read the full story. It is out on the bloomberg and@Bloomberg.com

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