Schwab Agrees to Buy Private Share Platform for $660 Million

Summary

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Bloomberg Businessweek Podcast Summary

Episode: Schwab Agrees to Buy Private Share Platform for $660 Million
Date: November 6, 2025
Hosts: Carol Massar & Tim Stenovec

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Episode Overview

This episode covers the breaking news that Charles Schwab has agreed to acquire Forge Global Holdings, a leading private share marketplace, for $660 million—a move that marks Schwab's largest push yet toward democratizing access to private markets. The discussion expands to implications for investors and advisors, the shifting regulatory landscape, and the interaction between Washington and Wall Street. The episode features in-depth interviews with Schwab CEO Rick Wurster, Macro Strategist Kevin Gordon, Schwab Advisor Services’ Kayla Culver, and Schwab's Washington policy expert Mike Townsend.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Schwab Acquires Forge Global Holdings

Guest: Rick Wurster, CEO, Charles Schwab
[01:46–10:11]

• Deal Highlights:

  • Schwab acquires Forge for $660 million ($45/share), a 72% premium over last close.
  • Forge is described as the leading marketplace for private company shares—despite its stock being "down 90% off its highs." (02:52)

• Strategic Motives:

  • Goal: "Democratize access to private investing" so it's not just for high-net-worth clients. (02:17)
  • Schwab sees the private investing market as vastly larger than the deal cost and expects significance from giving "46 million clients" access. (03:38)

• Competitive Landscape:

  • The process was "absolutely...competitive"—other big names like Morgan Stanley are making moves in this space. (03:29)
  • The premium reflects the strategic value, not simply a race for profits. Rick says, "The opportunity for us in private markets is so much bigger than what we're paying." (03:38)

• Offerings for Investors:

  • Three ways for Schwab clients to access alternatives:
    1. Menu of alternative managers (private equity, venture capital).
    2. New index fund launching next year (index of 60 largest private companies, available to all investors).
    3. Marketplace for accredited investors to invest in individual private companies. (04:24)
  • "Every type of investor" will have a way to participate, depending on qualifications. (04:24)

• Client & Advisor Impact:

  • Acquisition strengthens Schwab's appeal to RIAs and high-net-worth clients; alternatives exposure at RIAs expected to grow from 1.2% to possibly 5–7%. (06:36)
  • Immediate access for some clients, with wider rollout and new fund coming in Q1 2026. (07:09)

• Risks & Education:

  • Schwab values Forge's "robust research" for investor transparency; additional support to help clients "be able to do this in a thoughtful, well-researched way." (07:40)

• Quote:

  “It was about democratizing access to private investing and helping our clients grow their wealth.” — Rick Wurster [03:38]

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2. Macro Environment, Labor Market & Consumer Health

Guest: Kevin Gordon, Head of Macro Research and Strategy, Schwab
[12:03–20:43]

• Labor Market Trends:

  • October saw the "most job cuts...in more than two decades" (per Challenger, Gray & Christmas), largely tech and warehousing. (12:19, 14:08)
  • Mixed signals: "It's like the flavor changes every day." Indicators like state-level claims remain healthy, but others (Revelio Labs, Challenger) point to weak spots. (12:44)
  • Layoff announcements don't mean immediate cuts; often there's a 90-day lag. (13:45)
  • Concept of "rolling recessions": sector-specific pain rather than economy-wide downturn. (14:13)

• Consumer Spending:

  • Despite layoffs, "the stock of labor is still relatively healthy."
  • Spending is "still positive," but signs of stress are appearing for lower-wealth households (the "bottom half" of the K-shaped recovery). (15:11)

  • “The aggregate income growth month to month, assuming you stay employed, is relatively strong.” — Kevin Gordon [15:11]

• Wealth Effect & Disparity:

  • U.S. household exposure to equities is at an all-time high, boosting spending among wealthier Americans due to market gains. (16:09)

• Data Gaps & Policy Risks:

  • Data disruptions from potential government shutdowns could delay key reports, creating policy uncertainty.
  • Fed likely to err on caution due to data gaps—“driving in the dark in the fog.” (19:35)

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3. Regulatory Backdrop for Alternatives, 401ks, and AI

Guest: Kayla Culver, Head of Risk & Controls, Schwab Advisor Services
[21:18–29:18]

• Anticipated Regulatory Shifts:

  • Trump-era executive order directs review of 401k access to private credit and alternatives; SEC may redefine "accredited investor." (21:18)
  • Government shutdown has paused changes, but the trend is toward broader access for retail investors. (21:49)

• Advisor Guidance & Risks:

  • Current environment is less about new rules, more about "getting back to basics" in compliance. (22:21)
  • Access to private assets in retirement plans depends on plan sponsor’s risk tolerance and philosophy. (24:08)
  • "Choice is always a good thing...as long as people are doing it smartly with the advice of an investment advisor." — Kayla Culver [24:56]
  • Risks include illiquidity and the need for investor education.

• AI Regulation & Compliance:

  • Advisors are curious/anxious about AI’s role but lack clear regulatory guidance.

  • “There’s not a lot of guidance out there for advisors...[on] how can we do this compliantly when there’s not really any guidance.” — Kayla Culver [26:45]

  • Industry pushes for principles-based, not prescriptive, AI regulation. (27:31–28:33)

• Advisor Education:

  • Schwab provides ongoing resources, webcasts, articles, and compliance consultant relationships for advisors. (28:46)

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4. Washington’s Evolving Relationship with Wall Street

Guest: Mike Townsend, Managing Director, Legislative and Regulatory Affairs, Schwab
[30:47–41:41]

• Political & Market Interplay:

  • "Ten things happen in the course of our every day that people want to talk about." (31:43)
  • Off-year election results signal shifts but are heavily local; big night for Democrats is not necessarily a national referendum. (32:08)

• Generational and Ideological Change:

  • Younger, more vocal leaders emerging (e.g., NYC's new mayor), as veterans retire (e.g., Pelosi), marking transition points within parties. (34:38)

• Redefining Political Labels:

  • Traditional party lines blur; e.g., Republicans now sometimes support restricted trade/higher taxes, historically Democratic positions. (35:29)

• Government Intervention in Markets:

  • Administration’s moves (U.S. government buying stakes in Intel, discussing stakes in pharma companies) are “very strange” and carry risks; question raised if this is a move toward state ownership. (36:13–37:06)

• Market vs. Emotional Response:

  • Most emotional headlines have less impact on markets than people expect; investment decisions should separate from political emotion.

  • “A lot of what you may be emotional about isn’t affecting the markets... Remember to separate those feelings from your investing.” — Mike Townsend [38:03]

• What the Market Really Cares About:

  • Market priorities: Fed moves and independence, tariffs, tax policy—not day-to-day political drama. (40:41)

• Fed Independence:

  • Crucial for markets and country; a threat to this would be "a huge, huge setback." (41:23)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Schwab’s Deal Motive:

  "We're thrilled to be able to democratize access to private investing. This is a market that forever has been for the high net worth and the ultra high net worth."
  — Rick Wurster, CEO, Charles Schwab [02:17]

• On Alternatives for All:

  "We'll have three ways that clients can invest... an index of the 60 biggest private companies. And any investor with any wealth, if they have interest in that will be able to invest."
  — Rick Wurster [04:24]

• On Regulatory Uncertainty:

  "For advisors, it's a lot of whiplash right now... now under Paul Atkins, we're expecting to see a reduced pace of regulation."
  — Kayla Culver [22:21]

• On AI and Advisors:

  “Everybody wants to use it, but there's not a lot of guidance out there for advisors. So we get a lot of questions on how can we do this compliantly when there's not really any guidance.”
  — Kayla Culver [26:45]

• On Politics and Markets:

  "A lot of what you may be emotional about isn’t affecting the markets... Remember to separate those feelings from your investing.”
  — Mike Townsend [38:03]

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Important Segment Timestamps

• Schwab buys Forge, interview with CEO Rick Wurster: [01:46–10:11]
• Macro outlook and labor/consumer health with Kevin Gordon: [12:03–20:43]
• Regulation, private assets in 401ks, AI with Kayla Culver: [21:18–29:18]
• Washington market impact, political shifts with Mike Townsend: [30:47–41:41]

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Episode Tone & Style

The tone is insightful, forward-looking, and grounded in practical realities. The hosts maintain an inquisitive, sometimes skeptical, stance, pushing guests for specifics especially on investor impact, risk, and the realities of regulatory implementation. Speakers use clear, jargon-free language to make complex financial, political, and regulatory matters accessible to a wide audience.

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In summary: This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the democratization of private markets, the fast-evolving regulatory climate, and the tight interplay between Washington and Wall Street. Schwab’s acquisition of Forge, regulatory changes in alternatives, the resilience and risk within the labor market, and the emotional vs. rational response to political upheaval are all dissected with expert voices and clear-eyed analysis.

Transcript

[Carol Massar]

Bloomberg businessweek is brought to you by Evolving Money, a podcast that explores how cryptocurrency is the next logical evolution of the financial system. Follow the podcast, which is sponsored by Coinbase. Wherever you get your audio programs. Did my card go through? Oh no.

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Bloomberg Audio Studios podcasts Radio News this is Bloomberg Business Week Daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies and trends shaping today's complex economy economy. Plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg businessweek Daily podcast with Carol Massar and Tim Stanweck on Bloomberg Radio.

[Carol Massar]

Earlier, you know, we did get some deal news. Charles Schwab agreed to buy Forge Global Holdings. It's a marketplace for buying and selling shares of private companies. The deal? About 660 million or $45 a share. That is a 72% profit premium to the Wednesday close. Rick Worcester, as you know, is president CEO of Charles Schwab and he stopped by earlier today for a second interview with us here at Impact 2025. My first question to Rick why this deal and why now? Why now and why this company?

[Rick Worshor]

Well, we're thrilled to be able to democratize access to private investing. This is a market that forever has been for the high net worth and the ultra high net worth. And with the acquisition of Forge, we'll be able to bring access to private companies to every investor and so we're thrilled about that. Second, it continues our history of innovation and our innovation has always centered around what we what can we do to provide more access, more opportunity to our clients so they can grow and improve their net Worth. So we're just thrilled about this. And Forge was the. Was the firm we really wanted to work with.

[Carol Massar]

A lot of speculation about this company, as you know?

[Rick Worshor]

Yes. Well, you know, their Stock is down 90% off its highs, and at the same time, they're the leader in the private company marketplace. And so for us to be able to acquire the leading company that has the deepest relationships with the private companies and who have the stock opportunity, it's just phenomenal for us.

[Carol Massar]

Rick, was it a bit competitive? And I'm just thinking about the premium that you guys paid. What was it, 72% above the closing price yesterday? I'm thinking of. Was it. Morgan Stanley just did a deal to buy equities, and. Which is another similar platform. So it does feel like big firms are jockeying to provide this access to their investors. So was there pressure to do this deal and get it done now?

[Rick Worshor]

Well, as a public company, Forge has to run a process, and so, absolutely, this was a competitive process.

[Carol Massar]

They've been pretty, I think, transparent about this.

[Kevin Gordon]

Yes.

[Rick Worshor]

From our standpoint, though, we think we're paying a very reasonable price or it's five times revenue. It's less than what we trade on on a revenue basis. And the opportunity for us in private markets is so much bigger than what we're paying for the company. We're paying $660 million for the company. This market could be huge. And when we bring our 46 million clients to this marketplace, I think the opportunity to grow our economics is significant. But most importantly, and why we did this deal was not about making money relative to the purchase price. It was about democratizing access to private investing and to helping our clients grow their wealth.

[Carol Massar]

Will this only be for accredited investors, or what's the plan in terms of new product placement or product offerings to offer it up to the retail investor?

[Rick Worshor]

What I'm so excited about is we're going to have an opportunity for every type of investor to invest in alternatives. With this acquisition, we'll have three ways that clients can invest. Today. We already have, for both our RIAs and retail clients, a menu of alternative managers. The leaders that you're aware of, some of the big names in private equity and venture capital. That's one way our clients can invest. The second way is through this acquisition of Forge, which owns an asset management company. We will, in the first quarter of next year, launch an indexed fund that is an index of the 60 biggest private companies. And any investor with any wealth, if they have interest in that will be able to invest. And then Third, for accredited investors, we will have a marketplace opportunity for those investors to buy individual private companies and invest in those companies directly. That does require you being an accredited investor.

[Carol Massar]

A couple of questions I want to ask you. So how does it kind of improve your ability to win more wallet share when it comes specifically to clients? We know that retail investors have been clamoring for more access to private markets.

[Rick Worshor]

I think we've gone, I know it's not about money. Yeah.

[Carol Massar]

Or I know it's not about in terms of the price you paid, but it is about right. Like you want to make sure your clients are happy and they're getting all the offerings. So I'm just curious, how does it help you win more share?

[Rick Worshor]

Over the last 10 years we've become a premier destination for high net worth and alternate high net worth clients. And the reason for that is we have a product offer that can't be matched. Whether it's access to privates, lending capabilities that are that are straightforward, fast, efficient, with great rates, wealth, support on their tax, trust and estate needs, and access to live individuals to speak to. They can walk into one of our 400 branches all across the country, have a conversation with a real life person about their financial needs, have a discussion about financial planning and what's going on in their life. And so we really have become over the last decade a premier destination for high net worth clients. And this acquisition just adds to our capabilities.

[Carol Massar]

What about from your RIAs and I think about all the independent advisors who are here.

[Kevin Gordon]

Right.

[Carol Massar]

This is what this event is all about. So how much does this kind of help them in their pitch to clients? And I'm just curious, is this to, to some extent in response to what you've been hearing from independent advisors?

[Rick Worshor]

It absolutely is. And this is a game changer for us in the RIA space. Today we have $5 trillion of RIA assets that we custody. 1.2% of them sit in alternatives. We know there's more demand. That number probably should be closer to 5, 6 or 7%. And with this acquisition we've now given them three different ways to get invested and I expect over the coming years we'll see that 1% grow more towards the 5%. So the RIAs are thrilled, they've wanted us to do more in alternatives and I think with this acquisition we've nailed it.

[Carol Massar]

And you said the new client offerings, it's next year, we'll see early part of next year.

[Rick Worshor]

Well, Forge is up and going today, so hopefully some of our clients will go find it Starting tomorrow and start getting invested if that's what they want to do.

[Carol Massar]

But non accredited I think about like.

[Rick Worshor]

That will, we're going to launch the fund in the first quarter of next year. That's the current plan. And then we'll, we'll continue to roll out their services in the coming months.

[Carol Massar]

You know, the other side of this, Rick, is, you know, concerns about hurdles in terms of transparency and investors really understanding what they're buying when they tap into anything in the private markets. So are there any kind of hurdles that you anticipate, regulatory or otherwise?

[Rick Worshor]

That's why we really wanted to work with Forge because Forge is the market leader in providing robust research to clients. And so clients will be able to access that level of research through Forge. In addition to that, we've also stood up a team of alternatives, investment experts at our firm that any client can call and talk to about, you know, question they have about a type of alternative or a particular investment that they want to make. And so we really are trying to do everything we can to support clients. This is a great opportunity for clients to be diversified, to grow their wealth in a new asset class. But at the same time we want to make sure we do everything we can that they for them to be able to do this in a thoughtful, well researched way.

[Carol Massar]

Is there a company you're most excited about that's on the Forge platform or that might be on the Forge platform at some point? I mean, there's OpenAI, there's anthropic. Is there any company that you're really excited about?

[Rick Worshor]

There's not a particular one I'm interested in, but I, but I am thrilled that there are a lot of people on our platform and a lot of people that listen to your show that are active in markets and they, they want to get into Kraken because they love crypto or they love Elon Musk and want to get into SpaceX. So SpaceX is another one. I think that's what's so interesting is that we find a lot of our investors do have these passions and now they're going to be able to invest in them through private companies.

[Carol Massar]

So we know you took over in January. This is your first deal. Is there more M and A to come? Like, how are you thinking about what else you need to bring under the Schwab umbrella?

[Rick Worshor]

Well, with 46 million clients on our platform, we have an incredible opportunity to continue to add capabilities, to serve and meet more of their financial Life. The average 50 or older than 50 year old client has seven financial services relationships in their life. So we want to add more and more capabilities so they can handle more of their financial life at Schwab. And as we add those capabilities, we'll either build them, we can partner or we can buy. And so we'll look at all three of those. But we want to round out our capabilities and do everything we can to stand behind our clients and make a difference in their financial life.

[Carol Massar]

And just one last question, mostly small, probably tack ons. I mean you can guys already have digested a large company. So I'm just curious, or could it be a pretty significant ideal?

[Rick Worshor]

You know, it's going to depend when again we'll look at build by partner based on what capabilities we want to add. But I think we're open to just about anything. We want to grow our company. We want to do the best job we can serving clients. We want to make a difference in their lives. And if there's a company or capability out there that we can add to our platform that's going to make a difference, we're going to do it.

[Carol Massar]

That is that is Rick Worst or he's President CEO of Charles Schwab.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily Coming up after this.

[Carol Massar]

Bloomberg businessweek is brought to you by Evolving Money, a podcast that explores how cryptocurrency is the next logical evolution of the financial system. The program investigates how traditional finance firms are integrating crypto into their operations now that Washington has begun to pass much needed regulations. Follow the podcast, which is sponsored by Coinbase wherever you get your audio programs.

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[Carol Massar]

All right, today we're going to go from Schwab Corporate strategy to really macro Strategy, Today's environment. And he is back with us. Delighted that he is. Kevin Gordon, head of macro research and strategy at Schwab center for Financial Research. Good to have you here, guys.

[Kevin Gordon]

Welcome to Impact. It's so glad you're back. Thank you.

[Carol Massar]

We're so glad we get such a great feel. So much fun of how things are going. But I do feel like there's kind of this internal turmoil right now in terms of the environment. Is it inflation we have to worry about? We saw that companies announced the most job cuts for any October in more than two decades. This from Challenger Gray and Chris Christmas. And they did talk about an AI component to it. I can't figure out where we are. What do you think?

[Kevin Gordon]

You know, it's like the flavor changes almost literally every day because this morning, I mean, it was much more labor driven. You had the Challenger data you mentioned, but you also had data from Revelio Labs, which has become much more important to look at in terms of private sector providers and what they, what they're looking at for job growth. And the, what they showed for October was a decline of 9,000 for payrolls. But you know, for me, the labor market stuff is almost this hall of mirrors because all of the different indicators tell you completely different things as to what's going on in the labor market. If you look at claims data, which we're not getting at the national level, but if you aggregate everything at the state level, it still looks relatively healthy. It stayed relatively low and stable. If you look at ADP for October, surprise to the upside, as we learned a couple of days ago, if you look at something like Revelio, though weak. If you look at something like Challenger, also weak. The interesting thing with Challenger is and we always try to make this important distinction and emphasis for investors, they're layoff announcements. They're not exactly cuts themselves. So there is a little bit of a lag there in terms of what you can expect.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Yeah. Oftentimes 90 days.

[Kevin Gordon]

Right. Plus, I think the one thing that is, I will say maybe a little bit more worrisome with the one for October relative to what we saw earlier this year because there was a huge pickup in Challenger job cut announcements earlier this year, but most of that was at the federal level. That was focused on what everything was going on regarding. This one's a little bit more broad based, as you mentioned with the overlay. The concentration for the sectors was mostly in tech and warehousing.

[Carol Massar]

So clearly there's cost cutting going on by companies.

[Kayla Culver]

Companies, yeah.

[Carol Massar]

Which is never a good feeling.

[Kevin Gordon]

No. And I think what's, what's been interesting so far. It's been relatively methodical where it's gone sector by sector. It hasn't been broad based across the economy, which I know I've talked about this with you guys a lot. And Liz Ann, you know, who I work with closely on this, are the sort of, this concept and thesis of rolling recessions in the economy. You're still experiencing that to some extent. Where it's not filtering up to the, to the surface and it's not aggregating together to give you a full blown traditional recession session, but it's still happening in pockets.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

We know her as Liz Ann. We all call her Liz Ann Saunders too. That's the Liz Ann you're referring to?

[Carol Massar]

Well, yeah. And she's their chief global strategist. Investment strategist, yeah. The big part.

[Kevin Gordon]

And you guys, my first boss, my.

[Carol Massar]

Mentor, and she loves you.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

We had her on our program yesterday.

[Kevin Gordon]

She's the best.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

So, Kevin, corporate going from the corporate world and thinking about, okay, what are companies doing with employees? How are they hiring, how are they firing, how are they announcing this to consumer spending? Because the consumer powers this economy.

[Kevin Gordon]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

We're getting some troubling anecdotes. What do you see?

[Kevin Gordon]

You know, what's interesting is that when you look at, I mean, this is where the labor market's so crucial to understand the differences between the stock and the flow. So the stock of labor is still relatively healthy. I mean, you look at a mostly fully employed America, and that's where we're at. Any of the layoff activity we've seen is just at the margin, relatively minimal. So. So if you see relatively low layoffs despite a very low hiring rate, which were basically at cycle lows, the fact that the stock of labor is strong means that the aggregate income growth month to month, assuming you stay employed, is relatively strong. So that's why real spending is still positive. But to your point about some of these anecdotes and some of these cracks under the surface, they are starting to widen a little bit more. Especially if you look at that bottom half of what everybody calls now the K shaped sort of economy.

[Carol Massar]

They're economists. Look at that bottom rung.

[Kevin Gordon]

You could break it down by wealth level, I like the Fed data and looking at sort of percentile levels of.

[Carol Massar]

What in terms of like overall economic growth and what the Fed like, how do you think about this is the.

[Kevin Gordon]

Tough part because you know when you.

[Carol Massar]

There'S a social answer and then there's.

[Kevin Gordon]

Like, well, the multiplier effect up the wealth and the income spectrum is just much stronger. That's just the math. And when you look at how well asset markets have done over the past couple of years, even this year, the bounce from the April lows, if you're benefiting from that as an asset owner, we have household exposure to equities at an all time high beyond where we were just slightly, but still beyond where we were at the peak in 2000. So the wealth effect and the power of the market in terms of an economic driver has become quite strong and quite potent. So I think when you add that together with what is traditionally an economy that has become more, or I shouldn't say traditionally, but over time has become more powered by that wealthy cohort, then you've got a pretty strong effect.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

When you say full employment, do you, how do you define that and how does the Fed define that?

[Kevin Gordon]

Because relatively low unemployment rate. Okay, to history compared to history, there has been a little bit of an uptick. But you look at that and you look at overall payrolls and we're still right around, you know, all time high.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

But does it mean the person who's, who's has the computer science undergraduate degree is working in computer science or working at Chipotle?

[Kevin Gordon]

Oh yeah, exactly. Fully employed, just sort of and nominal terms, looking at, at face value, a job being a job, whether that job is perfectly matched with what the person is doing, that's a little bit.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

How do we measure that? Well, it doesn't that that seems like a concern right now.

[Kevin Gordon]

Well, that I think is going to show up, probably start to show up a lot more within the next year in a lot of the labor flows that we're going to get. Because one of the, you know, one of the longer term concerns I have for the labor market is what's happening right now in some of the churn with the pretty significant decline in immigration, but also not sort of the lack of replacement. A lot of, a lot of those jobs, we're just not seeing that happening. You see that happening in, you know, youth unemployment, black unemployment, it's really starting to spread in some of those pockets. So the areas that were supposed to benefit, you know, throughout this year, as you had more of a Domestic strengthening in the, in the native born labor force. It's not yet happening so it's a little bit lagged. I hope it's delayed and not completely derailed. But I think in the next year figuring out replacements for a lot of those lost jobs, that's going to be key.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

And the reason I brought up the Chipotle computer science example. Well, but that was what's been cited in that New York Times article back in August. Computer science degrees, having trouble finding those computer science jobs.

[Carol Massar]

It's kind of this interesting environment we are when we look at the labor force. Hey, one of the things I wanted to ask you, your team shared with us that you believe Tina is back and it's not the Tina that we think about. There is no alternative in terms of like US equities. Yeah but it's something we started off with about U.S. government data. It is important.

[Kevin Gordon]

No alternative. I mean the depth and the breadth of the government, you just can't match it. And I think, you know, so far, thank goodness the markets have been sort of, maybe, maybe in a negative way, whistling sort of past the graveyard of no government data. But you know, they've been able to manage through with corporate earnings. I think that's been a nice bridge to get us to when the shutdown ends. I think though, you know, the longer this goes on, I think what we have to keep in mind and what we've really been emphasizing to our clients is that you know, when you don't collect this data, yes, you can go back and retroactively get it, but it's not going to be clean. So the longer this extends and we don't get, you know, presumably we're not getting a jobs report tomorrow even if you don't get when the next start. It's weird. So you're going basically almost a quarter without this really key data. So you're going to have a delayed third quarter GDP report, you're going to have missing data in a way for the fourth quarter and then you have benchmark revisions coming in February, which kind of throws another wrench into this for labor.

[Carol Massar]

So what does it mean for like I think I asked Liz Ann this yesterday, Liz Ann Saunders, that do we get a Fed misstep in terms of policy? Do they err on the side of doing nothing?

[Kevin Gordon]

Yeah, I think they're nudging that way. And you know, you look at some of the voters and.

[Carol Massar]

Which is what we kind of got from the October meeting, right?

[Kevin Gordon]

Yes, exactly. I mean Powell mentioned himself, Austan Goolsbee was just out from the Chicago Fed saying that he's a little more, he's a little less comfortable making a move when you're driving in the dark in the fog. So I can understand why they have to be in this reactive position. I don't fault the Fed at all for any decision they make. I mean, if they feel very strongly and highly convicted that inflation is not as much of a problem, they want to save labor, then sure, you can open up the door for more cuts. I would be sympathetic to that view if you get more data like Challenger this morning in Revellio. But on the other hand, and if you do have the shutdown lasting longer and more of a delay in a lot of these government data, then I totally understand why they would want to wait, especially if corporate earnings look like they do. I mean, the blended growth rate for S&P 500 earnings for the reporting quarter is almost 17%. So you look at that and you say, well, corporate America is still relatively healthy. We haven't seen mass layoffs. They've been in pockets.

[Carol Massar]

And it wasn't just the Max 7.

[Kevin Gordon]

Right, exactly. It's spread a lot more. It's come over to utilities to some extent, parts of Justice, Consumer discretionary helping a little bit. X Mag 7, x Tesla and Amazon.

[Carol Massar]

Right.

[Kevin Gordon]

So it is, it is a little bit of a broader story for the quarter.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Jeffrey Gordon, macro research and strategy at the Schwab Center. Just adopt financial research, you know. Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily coming up after this.

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[Carol Massar]

Now, you might recall over the summer it was in August, President Trump signing an executive order directing the Labor Department to reevaluate guidance to fiduciaries to get them more comfortable with including private credit, digital assets and other alternative assets in their retirement plans. Now, the sec, the SEC may also issue some new rules or guidance to change the definition of accredited investor or qualified purchasers. There's a lot going on that could open up a lot of different types of assets to retail investors. It's something that we've gotten into with the Schwab CEO and kind of on.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Pause right now, at least at the SEC level because the government shutdown. Yes, but still, this seems to be the direction that things are moving.

[Carol Massar]

All right. We have a great guest to get into on all of this with some thoughts. And here at Denver, in Denver, at Schwab Impact 2025, Kayla Culver, she's head of Risk and controls for Schwab Advisor Services. Good to have you here. There's a lot going on that could change, or there's a lot that is going on that means we won't see changes. How are you assessing kind of the regulatory environment and things that could change what investors can be investing in?

[Kayla Culver]

So I feel like for advisors, it's a lot of whiplash right now. If we look at the price prior administration and SEC Chair Gensler, there was constantly new rules coming out and it was just like regulation overload for people. And now under Paul Atkins, we're expecting to see a reduced pace of regulation. So we see it as a good opportunity for advisors to really focus on getting back to basics, making sure that their compliance programs are up to date, that all of their advs are accurate. What are their disclosure documents that they have to file with the sec? Really just making sure that, like their house is in order so that. Because if we're not under a constant flood of new things coming out. And then, you know, we heard you talking about the executive order related to 401ks and being able to hold alternatives, different things in 401k accounts. That's something that, you know, some advisors have interest in for their clients, and it's going to really depend on the plan. Like, is this something that the plan chooses to allow for that client or, you know, for their plan participants, or does the plan not want to allow that?

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

What direction do you see that moving in? If it does get approved, if it, if it happens, if the SEC says, okay, this is totally fine, is everyone going to be. Is it going to be like us having stocks and bonds in our.

[Kayla Culver]

I don't think for everybody. I think that we see it.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Will everybody have the option?

[Kayla Culver]

Well, it's going to be up to the plan administrator. So whoever's sponsoring that plan, they're the fiduciary. They've got the ability to say you're allowed to invest in X or you're allowed to invest in, you know, not allow.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

So would that be at the company level for. For a certain company and its employees, or would it be at the. Whoever they decide is the plan administrator. Like an empower, for example?

[Kayla Culver]

It's really like the plan sponsor who's choosing that.

[Carol Massar]

Okay, so why would a plan sponsor say no? Why would a plan sponsor say yes?

[Kayla Culver]

I think they would say yes if they wanted to Give their participants additional choices. Some plan sponsors may say no. We see it on the Schwab side where we've got some plan sponsors that have opted into our personal choice retirement account offering where you can basically, basically have your 401k and you know, self direct it, invest in stocks and bonds and things that are outside of the allocate the plan allocation. It just really depends on their, their comfort level. Like from a conservative perspective, you might say we want to stick more with, you know, these funds that we've chosen.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Do you. Is it a good thing?

[Kayla Culver]

I think it's, you know, choice is always a good thing, so more freedom of choice. But as long as people are doing it smartly with, you know, with the advice of an investment advisor, I think it's a smart decision. But I think there's always additional risk there.

[Carol Massar]

Well, the risks are right in terms of all the assets. Some things are not as liquid as others. And you need to understand that if you need to be able to get out of something, it's not liquid. Like stocks and bonds.

[Kayla Culver]

Exactly, in many ways. And that's why I think doing things with the advice of a professional versus just, you know, your friend told you this was a good investment.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

It makes more sense that way on the regulatory front. And having advisors have less regulation right now, does more fall on them in terms of making sure that they're doing what's right? Because those, those regulations aren't necessarily in place. And I know a judgment for me to say, you know, equate regulations with Right, that's not what I do. But we know the, we know the DNA that, that Paul Atkins has chair when it comes to this stuff. And he's much more laissez faire than other SEC chairs in the past.

[Kayla Culver]

Yeah. So what, what we keep reminding advisers of is just because there's, you know, all this noise about deregulation and less new regulations, you still have to follow the fiduciary to. You still have, you know, there's still regulations on the books, there's still rules. You still have to do all the things and be making sure you're in the best interest of your client. So just because it's a more like laissez faire kind of environment doesn't mean you still don't have principles that you have to adhere to.

[Carol Massar]

Are advisors, independent advisors, a little nervous about like kind of what's coming at them and the changes, especially when it comes to all facets potentially.

[Kayla Culver]

Yeah. I think that they're just. There's the unknown. I Mean, we get a lot of questions from advisors right now about artificial intelligence. So, you know, because everybody wants to use it, but there's not a lot of guidance out there for advisors. And so we get a lot of questions on how can we do this compliantly when there's not really any guidance.

[Carol Massar]

Kayla, where's that guidance going to come from? I mean, you know, and I do this with all due respect, but with all due knowledge about social media and things that many folks would say we didn't, we weren't legislators, policymakers, just didn't understand the power, the impact and the oversight and the liabilities, perhaps. And so I'm just thinking, how do we do that with AI?

[Kayla Culver]

Yeah, I think where, where the thought is that we would most likely see.

[Carol Massar]

How do we do it with. They are. And get it right.

[Kayla Culver]

Yeah. And, you know, we've been, we've been talking about that. So I attended the Investment Advisor Association's Advocacy Day in D.C. back in September, and artificial intelligence was one of the topics that we were talking to lawmakers about. And really, just from the standpoint of don't create regulation that stifles innovation, don't make it be prescriptive and really reminding them that advisors already have to follow the fiduciary duty. So don't be prescriptive in what you're trying to do. I think where we would eventually see something come from most likely is probably the sec. This sec, well, it's a very hot topic, so that's where we would think it would come from. But in how we think it'll be more principles based with this SEC than prior administrations.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

It sounds like advisors right now have to keep up with a lot. Just in 30 seconds. Where do they, where do they do professional education? Where do they make sure that they are on top of the regulations? They make sure they're on top of what's happening with AI.

[Kayla Culver]

Well, if they're, if they're a Schwab client, we have so many resources that we make available for them. On our website, we do regulatory webcasts. We put out compliance review articles. We've got relationships with compliance consultants that they can use. And then they should also look at alerts that the SEC and other regulators put out. They're not putting any route right now, but on a normal basis, there will be things that they put out.

[Carol Massar]

But certainly for your advisors, there's lots of ongoing education.

[Kayla Culver]

Yes.

[Carol Massar]

Which is pretty cool and interesting to hear. Hey, Kayla, thank you so much.

[Kayla Culver]

Thank you.

[Carol Massar]

Is an important area, and I'm so Glad we could cover it with you. Kayla Culver. She's head of Risk and controls for Schwab Advisor Services.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily Coming up after this.

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[Carol Massar]

There are.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Two kinds of people in the world. People who think about climate change and people who are doing something about it. On the Zero podcast we talk to both kinds of people. People you've heard of, like Bill Gates.

[Rick Worshor]

I'm looking at what the world has to do to get to zero, not using climate as a moral crusade and.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

The creative minds you haven't heard of yet. It is serious stuff, but never doom and gloom.

[Carol Massar]

I am Akshat Ratty. Listen to Zero every Thursday from Bloomberg.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Podcasts on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else.

[Carol Massar]

You get your podcasts.

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[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Think it's fair to say that Washington and Wall street and the markets are inextricably bound in a way right now that totally kind of feels a bit different from other times in modern history?

[Carol Massar]

Yeah. Well, listen, we're glued to news out of the nation's capital because things the president says our administration does even today in terms of the drug makers, like it's moving markets or maybe.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

But things that are beyond the administration's control, like what the Supreme Court is going to decide when it comes to tariff policy, the US Government taking ownership of publicly traded companies. Social media posts from the president that can move markets and take company leaders by surprise. This is enough to keep Mike Townsend on his toes. He's netting Director of Legislative and Regulatory affairs for Charles Schwab. He's a political analyst based in Washington. He also the host of Schwab's Washington Wise podcast. He joins us here on site@schwab impact 2025. You said that you can't walk like five steps without somebody grabbing you and saying, can I ask you a question about politics right now? What are they asking you?

[Mike Townsend]

Well, I mean, obviously just since we've been here, right? I spoke on the main stage at the opening session on Tuesday. Then Tuesday night we had the Election results. Then Wednesday we had the Supreme Court case, you know, argued on the tariffs. And so this is my life now. 10 things happen in the course of our every day that people want to talk about. So pretty fascinating times.

[Carol Massar]

So what do you make of what we've had in the last 48 hours or so?

[Mike Townsend]

Yeah, I mean, you know, the first thing I would say on the election in particular is that it's very easy and I think you're seeing a lot now of the sort of overreaction to an off year election. And I said, you know, I told the conference here, off year elections are kind of unique to their particular places. New York City, Virginia and New Jersey, obviously the California district initiative, but they're relatively confined to those, those places. So no question, big, big night for the Democrats.

[Carol Massar]

But is it a referendum on the sitting president?

[Mike Townsend]

I mean, to some degree I think it is. But, you know, I live in Virginia and that race was about federal workers being, you know, fired from their jobs and, you know, the economy and that sort of thing. So, you know, yes, it was partly a referendum. I certainly think you can read it as a rebuke to the president and some of his actions. But whether that extrapolates out farther, we'll have to see.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

You went to Bowdoin College in Maine. Also someone who went to Bowdoin College, Zoran Mamdani, the mayor elect of New York City. You guys did not overlap because he's only been out of there for like.

[Carol Massar]

Did you go to alumni events together at all?

[Mike Townsend]

I've never met him.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

But his, he's a Democratic socialist. And I'm wondering if you see that as insulated to New York in New York politics or if you see him as the face of the Democratic Party moving forward.

[Mike Townsend]

So I think you can answer that question in sort of both ways. Right. So I think it was unique to New York. He is a very dynamic personality. He's very, very good at social media. And he clearly touched a nerve with people in terms of the issues he was focusing on.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Sorry, you could have just been describing President Trump. Yeah, those things you just said apply totally to President Trump.

[Mike Townsend]

So, so, absolutely. So I think, and President Trump has probably taught us that personality is a huge, huge part of the political landscape now. So I think Mamdani, you know, did, did, you know, incredible at connecting with people and reaching out to people who maybe hadn't felt heard in the public, in the political process. Does that mean that he's going to become the face of the Democratic Party? I, you know, I think Republicans are certainly going to try to make that the case. But I also think, you know, he's going to have to, he's going to have a really hard time doing a lot of the things that he said he wants to do. That's just the nature of the role. And, you know, the ability of the mayor of New York City to act unilaterally is extremely narrow. So, you know, we'll have to see. And I do think, think you're seeing, you know, you can juxtapose that with the retirement announcement of Nancy Pelosi.

[Kevin Gordon]

Right.

[Mike Townsend]

Earlier today. You're seeing some generational change in the Democratic Party that I think is really, you know, important and probably necessary for the Democrats.

[Carol Massar]

So is that her passing the baton or acknowledging that that era is over? Like, what is that in your view?

[Mike Townsend]

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's, it's a realization that the Democratic Party has to get younger and appeal to younger people. I mean, the leaders, you know, most of the veterans of the Democratic Party, particularly in the House, are in their 80s. Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, Jim Clyburn. And so I think you're seeing that kind of transition happen.

[Carol Massar]

One thing I wanted to ask you, and I think about the titles we give to politicians, a Republican, Donald Trump, most people would say he's not really your standard Republican. Zora Mandani, like, we're talking to socialists. But you know what? He's going to have to take the job and look at his entire constituents. Do those classifications even matter in today's political environment?

[Mike Townsend]

Yeah, I think that's a really good question because, you know, one of the things that really fascinates me is what does the Republican Party look like post 2028 into 2029, after Donald Trump is no longer president, no longer on the ballot, do what we would call traditional Republicans sort of wake up and think, that was weird. Let's go back to was I dreaming? You know, and if you want a great example of it, look at the Supreme Court case that was, that was held on Wednesday where you have essentially Republicans arguing for restricted trade and higher taxes and Democrats arguing the opposite. That can be seen as a complete.

[Carol Massar]

Flip of bizarro world a little bit.

[Kevin Gordon]

Right.

[Mike Townsend]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

So, okay, speaking of bizarro worlds, what when a, when the, the U.S. government buys 10% of Intel.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Owns 10% of a publicly traded company or takes a stake in MP Materials, for example. That's a bizarre world.

[Carol Massar]

Or Intel. Did you say that?

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Yeah, yeah. That's, that's, that's what we're living in right now.

[Mike Townsend]

Yeah. And it's amazing to me how little reaction there has been to that.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

Are you worried by that?

[Mike Townsend]

I think it's very strange and I think it has a lot of risk to it.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

But we, are we getting to the point of state ownership of state owned enterprises? I mean, this is like, I mean.

[Mike Townsend]

The president today was in the, in the White House talking about, with a couple of the drug companies about lowering the prices of drugs. And he, he made, you know, one of his offhand references about maybe we should buy a stake in your company. And, you know, that's just become part of.

[Carol Massar]

Funny enough. Funny, not funny.

[Mike Townsend]

Yeah.

[Carol Massar]

We're talking with Mike Townsend here. He's managing director of Legislative and Regulatory affairs for Charles Schwab. He's based in Washington. He's also host of Schwab's Washington Wise podcast. You know, I was talking to a Brit this morning and he said, you know, you guys are a young country. Your political environment is still a baby or a toddler or however you want to classify it. You're going to go through these tough moments. And she's thinking about Britain and King. Well, all the things that it's gone through.

[Kayla Culver]

Right.

[Carol Massar]

And taxes, taxing. And there were Kings attacks and then there was pushback and, you know, didn't have maybe that power anymore. How should we as Americans. And I, and I do think there's, we're kind of apathetic in terms of some of these severe things that are going on. So I'm just trying to understand where we are in our political process.

[Mike Townsend]

Yeah, I think a couple of things. First of all, when you say you're apathetic to things going on, I think it's just overwhelmed by the things that are going on. You can't react to everything. I mean, 10 things happen.

[Carol Massar]

Tell our producer that, could you?

[Mike Townsend]

You know, and I think the ordinary person, the ordinary voter just can't take it all in every day and can't figure out what, what to be mad at. But, you know, when I, I go around the country, I talk to clients all over about the intersection between Washington and the markets and what. There's so much emotion. I feel like I'm part emotional counselor right now. And part of what I say is a lot of what you may be emotional about isn't affecting the markets. It's not, the market is not concerned about that. It's fine that you have those feelings, but remember to separate those feelings from your investing.

[Carol Massar]

Right. How many records have we had in.

[Mike Townsend]

The S&P 530 something.

[Rick Worshor]

Yeah.

[Mike Townsend]

Records. Yeah. So yeah, I think, you know, historically probably the most common question I've been getting asked over the last couple of days is is this the worst you've ever seen? Right. Or is this the worst we've ever been in terms of our partisan divide? And you think, well, we had a civil war, you know, we're not there.

[Carol Massar]

That's pretty divisive.

[Mike Townsend]

That seemed pretty divisive. You know, so historically there's kind of a pendulum and maybe we're way out on one end of the pendulum. Historically, the pendulum comes back toward the middle, you know.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

David Sachs, the isar for this administration, said today on in a post on X there will be no federal bailout for AI. He said the US has at least five major firms, frontier model companies. If one fails, others will take its place. He said in a follow up post, the White House wants to make permitting and power generation easier from, from the executive branch's perspective. How can they actually do that?

[Mike Townsend]

Yeah, I mean, I think this is a really fascinating question. I tell people all the time I fly in and out of Dulles Airport in Washington. If you fly out of Dulles, you look down, you see these gigantic buildings with all these air conditioning units on the top, right? Those are the data centers. They can't build them fast enough. Well, what's happening in Northern Virginia? Electricity prices are going up and water prices are going up because of the cooling needed for the water. And all of a sudden you've brought this kind of back to ordinary people's bills. Right. And they're sort of paying for it. So when the administration says something like that, I get it politically and it makes sense and I think a lot of people want to hear that. But what can the government, government actually do to lower my water bill? I'm not, I'm not as sure.

[Carol Massar]

I don't know, maybe make those who are building the data centers pay some kind of fee using or like, I don't know, some kind of tax or something.

[Mike Townsend]

I've seen some of these companies are like building their own power generating, you know, to try to, you know, take on some of that.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, they're partnering with like utilities directly. I'm just good about a minute. Mike. Man, I could go really long.

[Podcast Host / Co-host]

You should come back. Yeah, yeah, next week.

[Carol Massar]

It is an investment vesting audience that's here at Schwab Impact. It's certainly the Bloomberg audience. What's your final thoughts today?

[Mike Townsend]

Yeah, you know, again, my, one of my biggest things is, you know, try to separate how emotional you feel about everything that's going on in Washington. And remember that relatively few things are actually affecting the market. The market cares about what the Fed is doing. The market cares a lot about this Fed independence battle that is going to be play out in the Supreme Court in January over Lisa Cook's firing. The Fed cares about, I mean, the market cares about tariffs and cares about tax policy, that sort of thing. But you know, that's not all. Those things aren't what people are emotional about. And you got to sort of separate that emotion.

[Carol Massar]

10 seconds. Do folks in Washington, policymakers care that the Fed stays independent? I think they, in this, even in this administration, I think they do.

[Mike Townsend]

I think that would be a huge, huge, huge setback for the country and the whole concept of central banks.

[Carol Massar]

So could we see policymakers, even members of the Trump team, fight back if that was in question Real quickly, I.

[Mike Townsend]

Don'T know if you'll see members of the Trump team fight back, but I think a lot of policymakers would be upset.

[Carol Massar]

Mike Townsend of Schwab, thank you so much.

[Bloomberg Businessweek Announcer]

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