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Tim Stenovec
Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News this
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is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Massar and Tim Stenbec on Bloomberg Radio.
Carol Massar
Anna gifteopuku Agyeman has receipts and she's used them to write a book. She's the author of the Double Tax How Women of Color Are Overcharged and Underpaid. She's an author, she's an economist. She's a researcher at Harvard's Kennedy School. She joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio. Also with us is Nora Melinda, she's Bloomberg Television Markets Correspondent. She joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio as well. Welcome. Congratulations on the book.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Such an honor.
Carol Massar
You know, I think a lot of us are familiar, especially in recent years with the so called pink tax, the idea that women pay more for certain items. And like we've talked about this a lot.
Tim Stenovec
Amen.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Right.
Carol Massar
Exactly what is the double tax?
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
So the double tax is essentially the pink tax and then some. Right? So there are women who experience taxes on top of the pink tax. You're not just worried about finding the right beauty products in the store But. But sometimes when you go to the store, those beauty products might not even exist. So you have to travel further for those products. So I'll give you an example. I use hair products that essentially are sold in stores in the Cambridge area that are about 45 minutes away from my house. So that additional tax is me having to drive 45 minutes on top of getting to the store and maybe, or maybe not seeing the products that are on those shelves.
Interviewer/Host
Why?
Tim Stenovec
Why do you think this happens in society?
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Listen, there's a lot of reasons. Right. But I think that it really boil down to.
Tim Stenovec
Because, Anna, what I always think you're an economist at heart.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
That's right.
Tim Stenovec
And I just think about that. You know, people look at markets and opportunities.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
That's right.
Tim Stenovec
And if you see a big swath of the population that is going to use a product, you would think you would want to make it easier for them to access.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Listen, see, you're being too logical. You know what I'm saying?
Tim Stenovec
But could you tell.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Listen. But it really does boil down.
Carol Massar
You don't have to say it.
Tim Stenovec
Yeah, but so then why isn't it? If we just look at numbers and markets and things, you know, you go for it.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
I would say that the numbers actually don't explain why this isn't happening. Right. There's clearly a demand that's taking place.
Tim Stenovec
Right.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
And we also know that this is costly. Right. If we're talking about things like childcare, which I'm happy to get more into. Right.
Tim Stenovec
We talk about that a lot.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Like this idea of making it more costly to raise kids that you want me to have, that doesn't make a whole lot of sense. And so I think what this book does is highlights those barriers and says, look, this is a problem, and if we don't address it, this becomes an economic crisis. That's right.
Nora Melinda
Well, who benefits exactly, from this pricing structure?
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
I would say the systems that want to profit off of our insecurities as women. Right. So you are making me feel worse off as a mother, worse off as a sister, a daughter. And so you are sort of designing a profit structure around the way I see myself maybe failing in certain areas of my life. And so I'm making money off of that. Not necessarily trying to uphold systems that maybe uplift you or uplift your community. And I think that individuals who have that sort of mindset oftentimes are not thinking well into the future, which I think is going to be led quite a bit by women. Right. And how we're going to essentially determine sort of the economic circumstances of a lot of communities, just because a lot of communities rely on us.
Carol Massar
How do you do research for this as an economist? I mean, the different data that you. Well, the data set that you look at, A lot of the data that we get, that we rely on comes from the government.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Shout out to the data that y' all get.
Carol Massar
Yeah, well, we do. I mean, when the government. When the government's open, we get. We get better data, right? That's right, but.
Tim Stenovec
Or is the data not there and
Carol Massar
we use alternative data? That's my question.
Malcolm Gladwell
Like how.
Carol Massar
You know, anecdotes are one thing, but you have to have the data.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
The data is absolutely key to this. And I think the reason why this book was even able to be written is because so many people over the past few decades have done empirical research that brings together the data. So we have a mix of causal evidence, descriptive evidence. Right. But then, of course, we brought in some anecdotal evidence. Cause I do think that qualitative research, I know I'm in a quantitative wheelhouse. Right. Doesn't get a whole lot of love, but it should because it's also giving us a sense of mechanisms. We see things that are happening in the data, trend wise, but what is the actual thing that is driving that and so forth? For that process, I worked with a wonderful research team, and this team essentially worked together to look through bunches of academic articles, articles that are available through news organizations like Bloomberg. And we brought all that data in together and said, what story, if we put this all together, is the data telling us? And so essentially, think about the average person. They're not gonna be looking at reports, they're not gonna be looking at policy briefs, they're gonna be looking at books, they're gonna be looking at newspapers, articles, that sort of thing. And so that's why we're trying to make it easily accessible in this book.
Nora Melinda
Well, Anna, in your book, you also talk about not just the impact on the individual as it relates to this double tax, but additionally the implications for society as a whole. So talk to us about the macroeconomic implications that you're seeing.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Yes, I love that. I gotta clock it on Bloomberg. Yes. I think that the way to think about the double tax, right, which by the way, is the compounded cost of racism and sexism. Right. Is that this is essentially thought through the metaphor of, like, we're all in the same economic block, economic neighborhood, right? And so if you're in a neighborhood and the house five houses down catches on fire, you have Two choices. You can go home and say, I'm gonna catch up on another episode of Traders. Right. I don't think that's the best decision to make. Or you're gonna call the fire department and say, hey, there's a fire in my neighborhood. We need to address it. So the double tax here is that fire. And so we're seeing this actually show up in data in real time in the sense that black women in particular are facing higher unemployment rates. And a lot of people are like, well, that's a group that I shouldn't really care about because they're not just like me. Right. But what's actually happening with them is starting to be reflected in other groups, women more broadly and mothers. And so if we're not tackling essentially what's happening with women of color and black men in particular, that unaccounted cost eventually spreads to everybody else.
Carol Massar
We're speaking right now with Anna Gifteopuku Agamen. She's the author of the Double How Women of Color Are Overcharged and Underpaid. Also joining us, Nora Melinda. She is a Bloomberg TV Markets correspondent.
Tim Stenovec
So let me just ask you if you could, you know, the data is there, you're writing these books, like bringing, you know, these problems, these situations to attention. What, what would you, what needs to be done? Are we talking about policy? Are we talking about companies doing things, government doing things? What do we need to see done to change some of this? Because Tim knows this, I say this a lot with women. You know, yes, women have made a lot of advancements, but you look at the numbers, and you have some numbers too about, you know, when it comes to black women in particular, you know, in the highest paid, in the highest paid careers, like, if you're talking about wealth creation, it's not just incomes, but it's how do you advance from a generation or generation? So what would you like to see changed or what needs to change?
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
So I think everything you mentioned is going to contribute towards the solution. Right. It can't just be a silver bullet solution coming from one sector.
Tim Stenovec
Right.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
It's going to be a combination of policies, combination of communities and individual actions to ensure that the double tax actually gets eradicated for good. And I want to be clear about something. Even though the double tax is describing the compounded cost of racism and sexism, I just noted two ways in which people are facing inequality, which means that if you're facing any dimension of that, you're also going to be accounted for. So by addressing the double tax for Nora and I. I'm also addressing sexism for you. Right. And that has spillover effects for you. Right. And so it's actually very important for us to think about policies that, for example, are making it easier for folks to raise their kids. Right. We're talking about the child tax credit, for example. That's been on the table in that. Yeah, I know, I know.
Interviewer/Host
Sorry.
Tim Stenovec
I'm shaking my head because I just feel like there's issues that as a society, we just don't value. But what's the economic cost of all of this? Like, how do you think about that?
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
I think the economic cost of all this is. It's hard to say definitively. It's one thing. Right. I think what happens is it shows up as different price points at different stages of life. Let me maybe give you a point of reflection that I realized. So at the very end of the book, this book is sort of formatted as the lifetime cost of a woman's life.
Kohler Ambassador
Right. Yeah.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
So I'm starting from your first mirror as a woman. You're dealing with beauty standards for the first time all the way through retirement. And it was until we started talking to women in retirement that I realized, oh, my goodness, if the double tax isn't addressed in housing, if it's not addressed in motherhood, if it's not addressed in caregiving, it all just shows up at the end of your life.
Tim Stenovec
It's a cumulative effect.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
It's a cumulative effect. And so these policies that we're talking about, we're talking about, you know, making it easier for folks to actually save for retirement, but also ensuring that people have housing subsidies, maybe when they're thinking about buying their first house. Right. Because if they don't, they might be pulling from their 401k, and that means that they have nothing to retire with in the first place. Right. But even then, as women, just thinking about sort of the cost we deal with to just look presentable, that in and of itself is a cost, and it can show up in our career trajectories. Right. I mean, I'm preaching to the choir right now. Maybe so. I think that's sort of what I mean by that.
Tim Stenovec
Nora, come on back in.
Nora Melinda
Talk to me about what you found to be surprising as you were doing this research. I know for you particularly, you really enjoyed the chapter that you wrote about motherhood, caregiving, childcare. What was surprising to you through your research?
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Can I tell you something? I mean, I'm really preaching to the choir here. Parenthood is expensive.
Carol Massar
Yep.
Tim Stenovec
Yeah.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Hello.
Tim Stenovec
Yeah.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Raising Kids is a really expensive, expensive thing to do. And I don't think people are having a honest conversation about just how expensive it is. So let me give you maybe a short anecdote. I was talking to my sister. My sister's older than me. Okay. I won't say how old, but shout out. To shout out. My sister Ellen.
Interviewer/Host
Right.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
And.
Tim Stenovec
But she looks amazing.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
She looks amazing. You already know this. That's my mom and dad.
Tim Stenovec
She's gonna call you, and she's gonna call us.
Carol Massar
Right?
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
And, you know, she was talking to me about childcare, childcare woes. And I said, why don't you hire a nanny? And it just went silent on the phone. And then she started to laugh.
Malcolm Gladwell
Yeah.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
She said, I don't think you know how much a nanny costs. And she was right. I had no idea how much a nanny cost. When I started breaking down the numbers, I said, oh, my gosh. On average, $40,000. That's not including health insurance. That's not including the fact that $40,000 in a place like New York is not a livable wage. Right. So you're really having to adjust to where you might need childcare. And I think the other thing, too, is there's a lack of public childcare options as well that I think I kind of knew about. But given that the childcare cost was so expensive, I said, why isn't Head Start robustly funded? Right. I'm a Head Start kid. Right. Why aren't these sort of public options available, by and large? And I think that that is sort of the chapter that really had me thinking about my family plans. Right. How many kids do I want to have? I had a call my parents and say, hey, mom and dad. Maybe two. Right. Like, because I think it's costly.
Tim Stenovec
Yeah, no, I know Nora wants to come in, but it's also where this backdrop of war, this guns versus butter, like, you think about, in terms of government spending, like, where things would go. Nora, come on back in, though.
Nora Melinda
I want to know what can the average listener do? I know you mentioned this analogy about the fire, the neighbor. We talked a bit about policy and, of course, the issues that still are prevalent.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
That's right.
Nora Melinda
What can a listener do today?
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
I think that I'm going to say two things. One that's more on the feely side and one that's more concrete. Okay. The first thing I would say is I want you to empathize with your neighbors. Right. I want you to have empathy for the people who don't look like you because they're dealing with different costs and the costs that they're dealing with are affecting the communities that you are sharing together.
Kohler Ambassador
Right.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
So that's the first thing, because I think that what that enables is then concrete actions, things like going to your local CVS and saying, hey, I'm not seeing certain products that would serve my neighbor. Is it possible for us to have more of those products available? Or I think for parents getting in a group with other parents without judgment. Right. And saying, look, we know this thing is costly. It takes a village to raise a child. How about we find a way to take care of each other's children? That's how I was raised.
Kohler Ambassador
Right, Right.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
So I think that there are really sort of communal ways that we can address these costs that are also low cost. I think a lot of times people look at stuff like this, like, oh my gosh, this is another $100 on my bill, or whatever like that. But I think for us, it's really just about getting in community and identifying what those costs are and addressing those head on.
Tim Stenovec
Yeah, we have to go.
Carol Massar
Oh, no, you gotta come back.
Tim Stenovec
So come back.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Oh, yes.
Tim Stenovec
Come back. This is a conversation worth continuing.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Thank you so much.
Malcolm Gladwell
You're welcome.
Commercial Announcer
Thank you. Thank you so much.
Tim Stenovec
Thank you, thank you. Thank you.
Carol Massar
That's Anna Githio Puku Ajiman. She's the author of the Double How Women of Color Are Overcharged and Underpaid. Also Nora Melinda. She is a Bloomberg Television markets correspondent.
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All right, everybody,
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
come back soon.
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Malcolm Gladwell
hello.
Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman
Hello.
Malcolm Gladwell
I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast Smart Talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IB Chairman and CEO Arvind Krishna, and I asked him, how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business? My one advice to them, pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example, if anybody has more than 10% of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind. If anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30% more productive today with the goal of being 70% more productive.
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Yeah.
Malcolm Gladwell
So we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say you can leverage what we did. We are happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process because the biggest change is not technology, it's getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things. To listen to the full conversation, visit IBM.com smarttalks.
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Episode: The Double Tax: How Women of Color Are Overcharged and Underpaid
Date: March 16, 2026
Hosts: Carol Massar and Tim Stenovec
Guests: Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman (author, economist, and Harvard Kennedy School researcher), Nora Melinda (Bloomberg TV Markets Correspondent)
This episode explores the critical economic and societal challenges faced by women of color, termed the "double tax"—the cumulative effect of being both overcharged as consumers and underpaid as professionals. Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman discusses her new book, "The Double Tax: How Women of Color Are Overcharged and Underpaid," highlighting both personal stories and robust research into the layered burdens of sexism and racism in American economic life. The conversation ties these phenomena to broader macroeconomic trends, implications for society, and potential solutions at policy, corporate, and community levels.
The episode blends empirical rigor with accessibility, empathy, and candid anecdotes. Anna Gifty Opoku-Agyeman’s approach invites listeners to see beyond statistics, emphasizing the real, everyday costs born by women of color while calling for collective responsibility and practical action.