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Trump Says NATO Should Down Russian Jets Breaching Airspace at UN General Assembly
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Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News this is Bloomberg businessweek Daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead with insight on the people, companies and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast with Carol Massar and Tim Stenbeck on Bloomberg Bloomberg Radio.
- [01:57]
Carol Massar
Geopolitics in the world at large, certainly a focal point for us makes sense with the UN General assembly underway here in New York City, we did have some comments from President Donald Trump out on his social media platform saying, I think Ukraine, with the support of the European Union, is in a position to fight and win all of Ukraine back in its original form. This is coming after President Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky met on the sidelines of the UN General assembly earlier today. Tuesday. Earlier today. Let's see what Michelle Jim Risk has to say. She's Bloomberg White House and National Security Editor. She's out there in our D.C. news bureau. Michelle, when it comes to the relationship with the US And Ukraine, it goes back and forth here. What's the read on this?
- [02:41]
Michelle Jim Risk
Yeah, well, certainly goes back and forth. And as we all know, the President does like to be unpredictable. He likes to kind of maintain leverage and, you know, obfuscating what his thinking might be and what his actions might be. And so while this is pretty jolting and a, a 180 turnabout, really, in terms of his comments around who is best positioned to win this war is kind of part and parcel of what we've seen from, from Trump and his, his sort of transactional diplomacy and his unpredictable diplomacy at that.
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Tim Stenbeck
So, yeah, my jaw dropped when I, when I saw this. Carol can attest to it because, you know, for months we've been hearing about the idea that, yes, this war could end. This is coming from the president. This war could end if Ukraine cedes some territory. And we took that to be, to be land here. So this would seem like a direct 180. How does this happen with, or let me rephrase the question, Michelle. Can this happen without US Support?
- [03:42]
Michelle Jim Risk
Well, that's certainly a high bar. I mean, I think we need to also look at this through the lens of what Trump is trying to achieve here. I mean, obviously, he's been expressing disappointment as recently as this morning in his UN General assembly speech about Putin's behavior, the Russian president's behavior, as opposed to what Trump's expectations were coming into office as he admits he thought this would be one of the easier conflicts to resolve based on his relationship with Putin. That has not turned out to be the case. And it's frustrating the US President to the point of him kind of turning his strategy on its head and now speaking as if Ukraine has the upper hand in the war. So certainly some strategy in that respect. But to your point, yeah, it would be very tough, I think, to have this achieved without the support of the direct support of the US but that is what Trump is willing to offer at this point. He's saying the US Is willing to continue to support NATO, to give European allies the resources that they need to pass on to Ukraine, but is loathe to get involved. And of course, in successive administrations, the US has been loathed to get involved with boots on the ground to help out as well.
- [04:55]
Carol Massar
Ah, but. And the president did say he believed NATO nations should shoot down Russian aircraft that violated their AirSpace, said the US would continue to supply, as you said, the alliance with weapons. This was happening as he met with Ukrainian President Zelensky following recent incursions that have certainly alarmed allies when it comes to drones. He said, yes, I do. The president said, when asked directly by a reporter if NATO allies should take down Russian aircraft during his meeting on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly. Again, the read on this, that seems.
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Michelle Jim Risk
Pretty, pretty straightforward essentially. Well, it's, that's been an interesting developing story all day just in the past few hours. I mean, essentially, Trump is giving his blessing for others to do what he is not willing to have the US get involved in. But at the same time, it still kind of contradicts or at least is at odds with the tone and tenor of what his Secretary of State Marco Rubio said earlier in the day when he was asked about the Polish leaders Tusk, his comments on being willing to shoot down a Russian aircraft. And Rubio kind of dismissed that and had a kind of vague line around, you know, diminishing that sort of prospect. But Trump now saying, yeah, go for it basically, if they're invading your airspace, NATO allies, you know, take them down. So he's certainly kind of, as we say, kind of ratcheting up his leverage against Putin in frustration over.
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Narrator/Advertiser
Is mom and dad not talking to each other?
- [06:26]
Michelle Jim Risk
Yeah, yeah, it certainly feels that way.
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Tim Stenbeck
What's the leverage that the US Actually has when it comes to Putin? What hasn't been tried?
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Michelle Jim Risk
Well, certainly, I mean, there's a lot on the economic front, you know, in successive administrations, you always ask, you know, what, what more can be sanctioned. But you know, as the Treasury Department always says, and, and U.S. presidents have successively said, you know, there's, there's always more that we can do. And certainly in Trump's portfolio, which has been very openly exposed in terms of what he wants to do on policy to ratchet up against Russia, he could move a little bit further to pressure other countries, including India and China and perhaps Hungary, as came up earlier today, to cease their Russian energy purchases. He's already putting more pressure on European partners to do so and saying, you know, you can't be hypocritical about this. If, if you want me to apply these renewed penalties, you have to do it yourself as well. So he's offer Trump is offering different options for ratcheting up that pressure on Putin economically.
- [07:31]
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- [07:45]
Carol Massar
All right, we should keep in mind that we really saw a lot of unity at the most recent Fed meeting. Some dissenters, the meeting beforehand. Meantime, if you're at the UN this morning, there were no calls for unity. Instead, President Trump assailed the United nations and other countries in a grievance laden speech that accused the world body of offering nothing but empty words, labeled climate change a con job and warned open borders, risk destroying nations. He also criticized the organization that housed his morning address.
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Dr. Todd Ivey
I ended seven wars, dealt with the leaders of each and every one of these countries, have never even received a phone call from the United nations offering to help in finalizing the deal. What is the purpose of the United Nations? The UN has such tremendous potential, I've always said has such tremendous, tremendous potential, but it's not even coming close to living up to that potential. For the most part, at least for now, all they seem to do is write a really strongly worded letter and then never follow that letter up. It's empty words, and empty words don't solve war.
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Carol Massar
That, of course, was President, President Trump, excuse me, addressing the UN General assembly this morning. Do want to mention a headline crossing President Trump to meet with the head of France, Mr. Macron, and also the head of Uzbekistan while in New York City. So these headlines are going to continue to come with more on the president's speech. You want to go right to it? Josh Wingrove is in the house, not in D.C. he's Bloomberg News senior White House correspondent. Josh, you covered the President, all his twists and turns. This was an interesting speech.
- [09:21]
Josh Wingrove
It was. It's great to be here.
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Carol Massar
Great to have you in person.
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Josh Wingrove
This is a rare treat for us here. Look, the Trump show hits the road every once in a while and, you know, the aperture opens and welcome, welcome to the second term. You know, he hit a lot of themes that he'd hit previously in this, although probably more strongly than in the past. Basically, he sort of assailed the UN over, as you mentioned, climate and immigration is two big topics going so far as to basically completely dismiss the notion of climate change as a hoax, but also on immigration, saying that it's the single biggest political issue of our era. So trying to draw the, draw a line in the sand. But Trump being Trump, he talked about the teleprompter not working. This was sort of a bit of his in the campaign. Let's, let's just say it's open to interpretation whether that was actually the case or not. And said the teleprompter was working fine. Of course was, yeah. But then was griping about, about the.
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Tim Stenbeck
Escalator that was not working fine.
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Josh Wingrove
That was not, I can confirm the escalator was not, was not working. And then later was working. It seemed to get under his skin. And that's when he went off about the renovation that he wished he'd done and told Them, you know, you could be walking on marble. You're walking on terrazzo flooring. You know that. Right. So, you know, it's, it was a journey, a weave, as President Trump likes to say. But I think it just underscores not only is longstanding DISDAIN for the U.N. remember, the U.S. is delinquent right now in its funds to support the UN Trump has given no indication that he plans to change that, but also that kind of new grievances are adding on. In particular, he thinks he, you know, he's obviously kind of gently, somewhat campaigning for a Nobel Prize. He talks about ending seven wars, and he's wondering where the UN has been. He sort of wanted credit for it. Said they didn't get a phone call. But Trump being Trump, you know, he got off stage, sat down with Guterres and then was all smiles and nice. So pick your, pick your lens, I suppose. Yeah.
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Tim Stenbeck
Even mentioning other leaders who he had said things about, but then had run into personally, essentially saying, you know, I ran into this person. I can't believe I'd be talking about this. And it's kind of. For you, who covers Trump, covers the president, it's not surprising because that's the way he is. But for world leaders who are sitting there, who are not necessarily accustomed to following every comment that he makes, especially at the U.N. this was unconventional.
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Josh Wingrove
I think that that's, I think that's fair to say. Yeah. I mean, if you're being sort of re. Onboarded into a Trump speech after maybe six years that had been since his last one, for sure, this is going to take you by storm. I do think that there are things to watch that will make news today for sure, beyond the speech, including the bilateral with President Zelensky, which should be wrapping up just as we speak. Right. Or just has wrapped up. Trump has really shifted on Zelensky a lot. He said today that it's remarkably brave what the Ukrainians are doing. That is a big shift in tone from January. And so that one we're watching, you sort of tacitly endorse the notion of NATO nations shooting down Russian planes.
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Tim Stenbeck
Does that have to do with the recent violations of airspace that we've seen?
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Josh Wingrove
I think I personally would read that more as a Trump sort of hand wavy type of comment. I would not read that as, like an emphatic shift in U.S. policy. Okay. Sort of. He sort of danced around the drone issue. He danced around it again in a separate answer today. But he did say flatly, yes, he thinks that NATO should have the right to Shoot down Russian planes, not drones, if they incur on NATO airspace. So we'll see. As you know, this is speaking of long time grievances, it wasn't just the UN Naito, of course, he has had sort of a bumpy ride with, but he's been more pro NATO as of late, in particular touting the increased defense spending pledges from Europe and Canada and other, you know, allies generally. So I think, I think you know, that one we got a lot of eyes on this Macron meeting. Could be interesting. He made a little bit of news last night wandering the streets of New York, upset about the President's motorcade. What we can all relate to that.
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Tim Stenbeck
Everybody knows a city bike is the way to go during UN General Assembly. So if only he had had a helmet, maybe would have seen the French leader on a city bike.
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Josh Wingrove
We can hope.
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Carol Massar
That would be lovely.
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Josh Wingrove
Yes. Yeah, we can hope. But that'll be going. Trump is hosting a reception tonight. We don't actually know who's going, so we don't know if this is sort of a friends only thing like, you know, Milei and the other whatevers, or if it's a broader thing. So we'll see. We don't know right now whether they'll let the press in, but I'll be there waiting, hoping, praying.
- [13:34]
Tim Stenbeck
So, Josh, hey, I'll be here outside waiting for you guys to invite me.
- [13:39]
Carol Massar
On your city.
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Tim Stenbeck
Yeah.
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Carol Massar
On your city bike.
- [13:40]
Tim Stenbeck
Yeah.
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Carol Massar
I mean, against everything else that's going, we're still doing stories about the H1B visas. I mean, there's just so much, Josh, when you look at the president, I don't know how you guys do it because there's so much coming at you. Top of the White House agenda right now. Because sometimes I feel like, watch here, guys, but don't look at here. Which is maybe something impactful. I don't know. How are you sussing out kind of what matters right now when it comes to the White House?
- [14:02]
Josh Wingrove
I mean, Trump always likes to flood the zone. That's been a consistent theme throughout his presidencies. I think on the H1B thing, this is a big change. And it's a little unclear to me whether they're shifting it on the fly. Remember, they had their big announcement Friday. Everyone's brains exploded. On Saturday, they started to, let's say, detail critics might say, walk back. Some of the things, for instance, Secretary Lutnick said things on Friday that have not ultimately been the policy. And then today the new development is sort of getting rid of the lottery system. We knew that was happening. Trump had signaled before the whole hundred thousand dollar fee thing that that was happening. But this is a huge change. And so whether it's impact on the tech sector, on healthcare, all this is really up in the air right now. And it's part and parcel, obviously with a complete overhaul of the American immigration system as he sees it. So people that have H1BS now are breathing a sigh of relief because there was a moment there where they were like, oh shoot, we gotta get back on US Soil, you know, in hours. But doesn't look like that's the case. So for now, that's the shiny thing we're looking at.
- [15:00]
Carol Massar
So while you're here in town, come back. Yes, Josh Wingrove, he is Bloomberg News Senior White House Correspondent. Josh, thank you as always.
- [15:07]
Tim Stenbeck
Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily Coming up after this.
- [15:15]
Narrator/Advertiser
Pinpointing the genetic changes that predispose us to disease Identifying the roots of mental illness Treating congenital anomalies even before birth At Boston Children's Hospital, we're investing in children's health today to ensure the well being of adults tomorrow. As home to the world's largest pediatric research enterprise and more than 260 specialty programs, Boston Children's is where the world comes for answers. Learn more@bostonchildrens.org Every business starts with an idea how can you go from daydreamer to industry leader? Amazon Business accelerates your journey with smart business buying. Get everything you need to grow in one familiar place. From office supplies to it essentials and maintenance tools. Amazon Business takes the buying experience you know and love from Amazon, plus tools that help you save costs and make insights based decisions ready to bring your visions to life.
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- [16:44]
Tim Stenbeck
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen Live each weekday starting at 2pm Eastern on Apple, CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say Alexa play Bloomberg 11:30 Federal agents dismantled a network of devices in the New York area that was used to threaten senior US Government officials and bore signs of foreign involvement. This According to the U.S. secret Service agents discovered more than 300 SIM card servers and 100,000 SIM cards in several locations within a 35 mile radius of New York City. That's according to a statement on Tuesday. The Secret Service moved quickly given that any attack could have severely disrupted New York at a time when world leaders are gathering in the city for a meeting of the UN General Assembly. I want to bring in Jennifer Eubank. She's the founder of Andaman Strategic Advisor. She works with companies on cyber resilience, geopolitical risk and more. She's also former Deputy Director of the CIA for Digital Innovation. She joins us from Virginia. Jennifer, good to have you back with us this afternoon. I want to talk about what the Secret Service discovered here. What does an attack like this mean or a potential attack like this mean? What would be the goal of something like this? What's your view?
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Jennifer Eubank
Wow, thanks for the invitation today. And man, there's never a dull day in national security or cyber, is there? No, and today is obviously no exception. So what I'd say is this is quite literally unprecedented activity in its scale and I would say audacity. Right. Just that you cited all the figures and it's eye watering what would have gone into planning such an activity. And so great question to start with is why? What is that for? And I think officials who've been working on this have very smartly been cautious about attribution so quickly because they're still investigating. But I think you can look at it as maybe three or three different bins. So there, first there's disruption. This network, this technology could have taken out cellular communications, emergency communications, and enabled encrypted communications amongst various actors. So disruption would have been one possible explanation. Another is threats. I mean, it seems like a lot of technology for that, but there are some anecdotal reports of threats against us being made from some of these devices and through these means. And then the third one could be some sort of criminal enterprise or clandestine network operating on a large scale. And certainly the timing around the UN General assembly, the location of the equipment, all of that suggests something more. And I'll be very eager to see what officials start to say as they come up with more details.
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Carol Massar
You know, Jennifer, when something like this happens, how do they know that it's signs of foreign involvement versus domestic involvement?
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Jennifer Eubank
Yeah, that's a really great question. And, and there's, there's been a speculation in there because as I mentioned officials are being quite close lipped at this point because they're, they're deep into investigating to get the details. But there, there have been anecdotal reports of some signups of connection between actors using this stuff and, and at least somebody in a foreign official position. I think it's really important not to go too far down that avenue of speculation. But they'll be looking, investigators will be looking for these kinds of connections because of course, the digital footprint is out there to be investigated. So they'll be combing through that using probably technical tools, using AI, using link analysis, using all sorts of things to see if they can put together a picture of who might be communicating with whom through this system that would help them understand who might be behind it.
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Carol Massar
Matt McCool, the special agent in charge of the Secret Service's New York field office, said the seizure was the largest operation of its kind the agency had undertaken. I mean, size and scope. I mean, I'm assuming that there's stuff going on all the time between nations and so on, but give us an idea. I mean, how big this operation seemed to be.
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Jennifer Eubank
Yeah, it's almost unimaginable. Right. Just the volume, the scope, and you cited the metrics up front. So 300 SIM servers, 100,000 SIM car, all kind of spread across a region that is unprecedented. It really is. And I think the word I used at the beginning was it's audacious as well. Really. It truly is. And so having come out of the world of intelligence for decades, I have never seen an activity like this. Wow. So I'm going to be tracking this one very closely. Really want to understand a kind of how it was done, obviously why it was done, what potential impact could have been. But bravo to all of the law enforcement and national security officials who work together to thwart this, because who knows which path it could have taken. Was it going to be disruption which would have been real pain and disrupting the word? Could it have facilitated threats? Could it have launched some other criminal activity? We don't know.
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Tim Stenbeck
Yeah, I think the question is to what end? Like what would be the purpose of messing with a communication system such as that? One question that I have is about the communication of this, of this terror plot or alleged terror plot that was thwarted and why the Secret Service communicated this, why they showed us pictures. And if that's rare to do in a situation such as this, it's interesting.
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Jennifer Eubank
Because I'm not sure we ever have had a situation like this. So that we know. Yeah, well, yes. Okay.
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Carol Massar
Because they did the great reveal.
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Jennifer Eubank
There we go. There we go. This was the first that was ever revealed. But I'm going to suggest that this is, this is unique in its nature in terms of the scale and the scope.
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Tim Stenbeck
But is it unique to communicate? Is it unique to communicate a win such as this? Does a lot of stuff happen behind the scenes that we don't know about each and every day that keeps us safe?
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Jennifer Eubank
Absolutely. And I have to believe this was not as if discovered that moment. And then they came out and had press release. There is a lot of work that went to getting to this point. I have to believe. And so one of the good things that has been emphasized in government, certainly on the national security side and law enforcement side, has been transparency. And so maybe we're seeing a reflection of that. And it's always difficult because you don't have all the details. People want more detail. But if you don't release information then people are frustrated about that. Can I make one point about this though, that I think is really important because it's super interesting. I'm going to be really focused on this for some time until it all is unraveled. But it really does showcase that telecommunications is a frontline national security issue right now. And so we've talked previously about intrusions like Salt Typhoon, that was the massive PRC sponsored intrusions into our telecommunications networks across the country. We are just seeing telecommunications in various ways, just right in the crosshairs of very capable state cyber actors and criminal networks. Now, we don't know which one this is or if it's both. We don't have any idea just yet. But both are very, very focused on telecommunications. And that has economic impacts, it has security impacts on the ground. If we had talked about 9 11, 911 excuse me, 911 being disrupted or other communications has business impacts across every sector. So it's something that we really need to watch in this coming year.
- [24:34]
Carol Massar
15 seconds. Do we need global cooperation to stay on top of it or we just need to have a domestic focus on it it real quickly?
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Jennifer Eubank
Absolutely. It is global. It is a global issue. We need to have partnerships all around the world. We need to emphasize public private partnerships in the U.S. right. Industry. Companies are going to see things that government does. But governments can have strategic insights and resources that individual companies.
- [24:55]
Carol Massar
Jennifer Eubank, founder of Andaman Strategic Advisors, joining us from Virginia.
- [25:01]
Tim Stenbeck
Stay with us. More from Bloomberg businessweek Daily. Coming up after this.
- [25:08]
Narrator/Advertiser
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- [25:34]
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- [26:04]
Jennifer Eubank
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- [26:48]
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- [27:03]
Tim Stenbeck
Watching shares of Can View the parent company of Tylenol really been bouncing around quite a bit in the last couple of days, up 2.3%, recouping some of Monday's drop. This is President Trump's call for pregnant women to avoid Tylenol drew sharp criticism from researchers who say the advice ignores decades of evidence and could endanger mothers and babies. For more, we're joined by Jessica Nix, a Bloomberg News health reporter. Jessica, you and the team out with a story this afternoon about mounting confusion for patients. You all spoke to physicians about this. What did you find? How did they respond?
- [27:35]
Jessica Nix
Yeah, most physicians today are just generally confused about the guidance that's coming out. How are they going to interpret this? But a few of them are saying, you know, we're going to keep continuing on as normal, keep talking to our patients about what works for them, what doesn't work for them.
- [27:51]
Tim Stenbeck
You know, one thing that's interesting here and we're going to be speaking to Dr. Todd Ivey, a fellow in the American College of Obstetricians in just a minute. The organization is out with a statement that says it's irresponsible and still what they heard from President Trump and still recommends Tylenol during pregnancy. How atypical is it for a professional group such as the Academy of the American College of Obstetricians to recommend something that's counter to something that a government body such as the HHS would suggest?
- [28:21]
Jessica Nix
If you asked me that question a year ago, I would say very abnormal this year. This is like the second or third time a American medical organization has gone against the advice of hhs. Notably, we've seen ACOG do different advice than HHS on vaccines specifically for pregnant women and taking Covid vaccines.
- [28:40]
Carol Massar
All right, well, I want to put that question to Dr. Todd Ivey. He's fellow in the American College of Obstetricians, which is the professional membership organization of OB GYNs, and Associate professor at Baylor College of Medicine, former president of the Houston OB GYN Society. So, Dr. Ivy, weigh in on this. If it's recommended that maybe pregnant patients don't use Tylenol, I don't know, a recommendation from the government. How do you read it? Would you not recommend it to a patient?
- [29:12]
Dr. Todd Ivey
No, actually, I would absolutely recommend it. When we look back at the data and this has been looked at, remember, we have over 20 years of research around this. There has never been proven causation for acetaminophen to any neurodevelopmental disorder during pregnancy. However, we know that the uses of acetaminophen in pregnancy for chronic pain, persistent headaches, and particularly fever reduction are incredibly important. And not dealing with those issues can lead to additional complications during pregnancy.
- [29:48]
Carol Massar
One thing I want to ask you, Dr. Ivey, and I've seen this certainly in the OB GYN area, that your medical malpractice insurance is off the charts. And I'd had OB GYN who talked about a million dollars a year and gave up the OB part of it because it was so expensive. What I'm curious about, though, is if you have a government saying maybe you shouldn't do this, does this potentially put you guys in a legal situation or legal quandary where you could be more of a target if something bad happens?
- [30:21]
Dr. Todd Ivey
Well, that would be a concern for any of us. However, I think it's important to.
- [30:26]
Carol Massar
But you know what I'm saying? If the government's coming out saying maybe you shouldn't do this, and you guys say, nope, this Makes sense. We've seen the research, the study, and then something goes astray. Is there kind of, you know, a new twist in all of this now in how you might approach something? Are you still going to say, nope, it makes sense, I'm going to do it?
- [30:44]
Dr. Todd Ivey
Well, you would have to prove causation. And I don't think that's able to be proven. Then looking at the, the highest quality data, the, the best study designs, it's never been shown to be linked. And so I don't think that would stand. Certainly that would be a concern because we always want to do the right thing. That's to us, you know, but, but I think it would be difficult to prove.
- [31:13]
Jessica Nix
Well, speaking Dr. Ivey of the causation doesn't always equal association in some of these studies. Talk to us about some of the studies that the Trump administration pointed to yesterday as the reason to come out with these new recommendations.
- [31:28]
Dr. Todd Ivey
Well, you know, there's, there's been questions around this for a long time. And what we've seen, even the Society for Maternal Fetal medicine and the FDA itself in 2017 and 202015 did reviews and did not find any causation. However, there was a consistent statement that was released in the journal Nature that suggested that maybe there could be some type of link. Well, 10 new studies have been released since that time that have clearly refuted this. The best study, I think, is the one released in the Journal of the American Medical association in 2024, which looked at over 2.5 million children, 2.5 million. And they actually took into account some of the confounding variables that the poorly designed studies did not. And so they actually took siblings and matched them for a control group, meaning one sibling would get the Tylenol in utero. In utero and one sibling would not. And it proved there was no, no relationship. That was proven.
- [32:37]
Tim Stenbeck
I just want to mention Ken View coming out over the weekend with a statement on this. They said, quote, we, this is the parent company of Tylenol, quote, we believe independent sound science clearly shows that taking acetaminophen does not cause autism. We strongly disagree with any suggestion otherwise and are deeply concerned about the health risks and confusion this poses for expecting mothers and for parents. Dr. Ivey, the president said yesterday he suggested that pregnant women should, they should they should only use Tylenol control fever if they can't. Tough it out from a medical perspective. And those are his words, quote, tough it out from a medical perspective and a medical communication perspective. I know that medical students study medical Communication. How do you look at messaging such as that coming from the leader of the country?
- [33:24]
Dr. Todd Ivey
Well, I think that's a very unfortunate statement. I think pregnancy can be very difficult for some women and I think telling them to, quote, toughen it out is really a poor approach. Now, I think before any medicine is taken in during pregnancy, whether it's an over the counter medicine or prescription medicine, a conversation with your health care provider is in order. And if they see fit, then I think you need to take the recommended dose for the shortest amount of time. And again, no more than is recommended.
- [34:01]
Carol Massar
You know, you bring up autism, anybody brings up autism, and it's a very difficult situation. It's a spectrum. I know individuals who have kids who are now adults, who are autistic, and it's a difficult thing. And I think we're still trying to figure out what is the cause, what are the causality, what are the connections, genetic or otherwise. I mean, what is, how do you think about autism? You know, and I'm sure you've seen it, unfortunately, in some of the folks who have had kids. I mean, how are we. It's still. There's a lot unknown. Correct. And I understand everybody's looking to try and make sense of it, but I'm just curious, what's the smart medical thought around autism?
- [34:46]
Dr. Todd Ivey
I think you hit the nail on the head. There is a spectrum. There is a lot that is unknown. There's a lot more that we need to find out about it. We know that it is a disorder of the way people receive, process and communicate and interact with their environment. There will probably be. The cause will probably be multifactorial. And I think it's going to be an interplay of how things come together. But I think it's very unfortunate in families where a child has autism and to indicate that the mother or the parents did something wrong that caused this, the guilt with that would be tremendous. And in my opinion, it is completely, completely unnecessary.
- [35:37]
Jessica Nix
One thing that also came out of the administration yesterday is they're now recommending this new drug called lecovirin as a potential treatment for autism. Can you tell us a little bit about the science behind that? Why they're pointing to this drug that's typically used for chemotherapy treatment and pain management.
- [35:53]
Dr. Todd Ivey
It is, it's leucovorin and it actually is a form, a more naturally occurring form of folic acid. You know, folic acid has been important in pregnancy for years now. We know that it's related to neural tube defects, you know, or the lack of it. Is related to neural tube defects. So we've always recommended folic acid during pregnancy. And in reality, what makes a prenatal vitamin prenatal than just a regular vitamin is the amount of folic acid. Now, I think many more studies need to be done on this. The main use of leucovorin is exactly what you say in people who take chemotherapeutic drugs, whether it's for cancer or whether it's for arthritis. And it can offset some of the side effects of that. But I think it's as the drug of treatment, I think much more needs to be studied.
- [36:49]
Tim Stenbeck
Well, what do we know scientifically, and this is to Carol's and Jessica's question too, what do we know scientifically about the causes of autism?
- [37:00]
Dr. Todd Ivey
Well, we know that, like I said, it's multifactorial. We know that there are many genetic causes. In some of my own patients, when we've done genetic analysis, we found different gene mutations and deletions that we know are associated with autism. There are likely some environmental factors that come into play as well. But our concern about some of these studies that they based some of these decisions on, they were poorly designed. They actually depended on recall of patients about how much they took. And there's always a bias when you try to do recall. They had limited information on dosages and duration of exposure. So you really cannot draw scientific conclusions from such poorly designed studies.
- [37:54]
Carol Massar
I just want two things. Leucovorin, though, folic acid. I remember taking it in a big way. So it's not really something new.
- [38:02]
Dr. Todd Ivey
It's not new. It's not new at all. We have learned so much about neural tube defects, which is a defect in the development of the neural tissue in the fetus. And we know that folic acid is incredibly important in the proper development of that.
- [38:20]
Carol Massar
So I want to follow, because we do know in the great reporting by our team of Brett Pulley, Jessica Nix, and Madison Mueller, talking about these doctors at ob GYN practices in Atlanta fielding a lot of questions. I'm assuming you are fielding questions as well about all of this. I am curious, do you feel or do doctors have a voice in Washington and are getting time with the hhs, Robert F. Kennedy, the secretary, or even with the White House?
- [38:54]
Dr. Todd Ivey
I think we've had somewhat of a difficult time doing that. You know, the. It seems to be recently that some of the scientific evidence is being ignored. I think that's very dangerous for patients. When patients come in and ask us about these things, you know, we. It's sheer decision making. Is what we call it where we talk to the patient about the risks of not taking a certain treatment, a certain vaccination, a certain medication. We talk about the risks and we talk about the benefits of each. And patients in consultation with their health care providers need to make those decisions.
- [39:32]
Jessica Nix
Well, speaking of some of this confusion that we're seeing coming out about Tylenol and autism too, a lot of pregnant women are now also looking at what do we do about, about a Covid shot. So how can patients look at all of this confusing messaging coming out of the administration that's in conflict with what medical doctors are saying and how can they navigate this world right now?
- [39:53]
Dr. Todd Ivey
Well, I think looking to your health care provider is the best place to go. I think relying on scientists, physicians and health care providers to provide the best medical evidence and the highest quality medical evidence. You know, we always say that we practice evidence based medicine in that we do that and as science changes, we change our recommendations. But science hasn't changed on this. I just think someone's statement on this has changed. And so we still recommend the COVID vaccinations. I had one myself. We still recommend flu shots during pregnancy. We still recommend the tdap and we're now recommending rsv, RSV rather the respiratory syncytial virus vaccination during pregnancy.
- [40:44]
Carol Massar
One last question. Do we have to be worried that there's not going to be enough vaccines? Because there's kind of interesting messaging and messaging that maybe not everybody needs the vaccine.
- [40:54]
Dr. Todd Ivey
Well, I hope not. That's always a concern. Supply is always a concern. We're finding patients coming in and requesting the COVID vaccinations. And we're having to send them out to pharmacies. And some pharmacies have them and some are not. Some patients are having to look for them in order to receive them. You know, I've always been a believer. You know, I am 63 years old and I had the measles, I had the mumps, I had the chickenpox when I was a child. And I remember those. And I remember my sister looking at my face and saying, what are those bumps on your face? You know, and that's how we, you know, I was diagnosed. You know, I received the polio vaccine when I was a child. And so I feel like I've lived a great life safe with the benefit of vaccinations. And I think unfortunately our memories are often short and sometimes the younger generation doesn't realize the benefits of what they they they've had. You know, I also remember the days of being an OBGYN provider when the pandemic first started and seeing, you know, on our local TV station, seeing the freezer trucks outside hospitals in El Paso where they were placing the bodies of people that deceased from COVID You know, you know, hearing the stories of nurses that left Houston and went to New York to work, you know, in some of these Covid units, I had several patients that did that and it's gut wrenching and I really hope people will stop, take a deep breath and really listen to the high quality evidence based research that's out there and, and, and pay attention to what your health care providers are telling you.
- [42:42]
Tim Stenbeck
Well, Dr. Ivey, we really appreciate you taking the time and joining us this afternoon. That's Dr. Todd Ivey, fellow in the American College of Obstetricians and Associate professor at Baylor College of Medicine, also former president of the Houston OB GYN Society. Also with us, Jessica Nix, our Bloomberg News Healthcare team. Check out her story along with the rest of the healthcare team. You can do that on the Bloomberg Terminal and at Bloomberg.
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