Understanding AI Revolution, Uncharted Special

Summary

Bloomberg Businessweek: “Understanding AI Revolution, Uncharted Special”

Date: June 26, 2026
Hosts: Carol Massar & Tim Stenovec
Setting: Uncharted Summit, Southampton

Episode Overview

This episode features live discussions from the Uncharted Summit, focusing on the rapid evolution of artificial intelligence (AI), entrepreneurship, and the cultural and economic forces shaping today’s business landscape. Highlights include a deep dive into consumer product innovation (notably, Poppy’s journey from startup to PepsiCo acquisition), candid insights from revered venture capitalist Alan Patricof, and a thought-provoking conversation about AI’s real-world impact and its implications for education, work, and human creativity—centered around the forthcoming book, The Human Machine Company.

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Key Segments & Discussions

1. From Kitchen Experiment to $2 Billion Exit: The Poppy Story

Guest: Allison Ellsworth, Co-Founder, Poppy
Timestamps: 02:18–10:19

Key Points:

• Personal Need Drives Innovation:
  Allison Ellsworth shares how personal gut health issues and the unpleasant taste of apple cider vinegar inspired her to create a healthier, palatable beverage in her kitchen—leading to the origin of Poppy.
• Leveraging Networks and Expertise:
  After Poppy’s appearance and deal on Shark Tank, Ellsworth accessed critical industry networks and hired beverage veterans, which “changed everything” for scaling distribution.
• Challenges in the Beverage Industry:
  “Beverage is really hard. Someone downstairs just asked me...I said one: it’s capital intensive. You're shipping liquid across the US, shelf life, manufacturing...Network, network, network.” (Ellsworth, 04:08)
• Consumer Trends:
  Clean labels, fewer artificial additives, and taste remain king. “Has to taste good, and that has to be king. Taste is king.” (Ellsworth, 06:05)
• The High Cost of ‘Better for You’:
  Premium ingredients and especially packaging drive up costs vs. artificially flavored rivals.
• Lessons for Serial Entrepreneurs:
  After the PepsiCo exit, Ellsworth is immediately back to launching new ventures—this time, prioritizing organizational structure, professionalizing early, and hiring talent well ahead of need.
• The Emotional Reality of Selling a Business:
  “People don’t talk about the post-exit blues. It’s a real thing. Money gives you freedom...but it doesn’t give you purpose. So find your purpose.” (Ellsworth, 08:42)
• Strategic Capital Only:
  For her next project, Ellsworth is raising selectively from partners who provide more than cash: “It’s the network...retailers, celebrities, influencers. Talent is a huge piece.” (09:34)

Notable Quote:

“Where entrepreneurs fail a lot of times is they refuse to professionalize their business...you hire 18 months ahead. You don’t hire for now and you don’t let your ego get in the way.” —Allison Ellsworth, 07:46

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2. A VC’s Perspective: The Past, Present, and Future of Innovation

Guest: Alan Patricof, Chairman Emeritus & Co-Founder, Greycroft
Timestamps: 13:31–27:29

Key Points:

• A Half Century of Venture History:
  Patricof reflects on 56 years in VC, from when “venture capital” wasn’t even a term, to today’s era of “irrational exuberance” and inflated startup valuations.
• Overheated Markets and AI Mania:
  “There’s a lot of money around. That’s the best thing I can say...the AI world is, I am certain, getting a lot of people into the business...It doesn’t have revenues yet or certainly doesn’t have profits.” (Patricof, 15:23; 16:17)
• Historical Parallels:
  He likens current AI excitement to previous tech booms (Internet, PCs, cell phones) and cautions that speculation runs ahead of sustainable success.
• Picking Winners Is Harder Than Ever:
  On megavalued firms like SpaceX and OpenAI: “If you’re buying SpaceX at a $2 trillion valuation...you gotta think it’s going to be worth 10 or 20 trillion. These are numbers...we just jumped from millionaire to trillionaire.” (Patricof, 17:43)
• The Social Consequence of Capital Concentration:
  Patricof worries about income disparity and the need for political leaders (especially Democrats) to address the gap between billionaires/trillionaires and working Americans.
  “What’s going on right now is going to create more billionaires, trillionaires, and the working class....That has to be very much addressed in the upcoming election.” (25:04)
• Trends in Longevity and Biotech:
  “It is a very hot area today. Everybody wants...to live longer....But most of the things we're involved in are caregiving, telemedicine, longevity clinics...” (Patricof, 23:07)

Notable Quotes:

“Money gives you freedom...but it doesn’t give you purpose. So find your purpose." —Allison Ellsworth, 08:42

"There’s an irrational exuberance...valuations of startups, early-stage deals, are out of sight and it makes it difficult to think about how you make venture returns." —Alan Patricof, 15:23

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3. The Human-Machine Company: Rethinking AI’s Future

Guests: Ananth (Global Managing Partner, Next 47) & Kevin Maney (NYT-bestselling author)
Timestamps: 27:42–39:39

Key Points:

• Reframing AI as ‘Machine Intelligence’:
  The duo’s upcoming book, The Human Machine Company, explores how AI, as “machine intelligence”, is more akin to a transformative utility like electricity, rather than an all-encompassing, magical replacement for human cognition.
• AI as Competitive Leveler, Not Differentiator:
  “What the AI can produce all just basically becomes the same, you know, a level playing field for everybody. So then the difference is what can the humans do on top of that...” (Kevin Maney, 30:40)
• Human Creativity Remains Central:
  While AI will automate the last mile of “rote work,” the challenge—and opportunity—for humans is in uniquely creative or critical thinking: “AI is basically trained on everything that’s happened before...that’s the human being role, thinking of something that never existed before.” (Maney, 31:56)
• Realism About AI’s Current Capabilities:
  “They don’t really think—at least the models as they exist today are probabilistic machines....It’s not right to think of them as thinking.” (Ananth, 33:30)
• Education’s Critical Pivot:
  As AI assumes more “intellectual last-mile” tasks (coding, writing, organizing), education must shift to training students in creative problem solving, critical inquiry, and synthesis—“liberal arts is the new, the new master.” (Kevin Maney, 38:47)
• Optimism vs. Dystopia:
  Both guests emphasize that while jobs will change, human drive for creativity and forward progress endures; mass unemployment is not inevitable.

Notable Quotes:

“AI writing is going to be this...level set the same. What’s going to be the differentiator is what somebody like me or you guys can bring to the conversation that AI is not going to come up with.” —Kevin Maney, 31:56

“Every human job we can conceive of can be split into things that now a cognitive machine can do and then a human being can do. And this is going to happen in job after job.” —Ananth, 33:30

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4. The Entrepreneur’s Journey & US Innovation Ecosystem

Guests: Michael Loeb (Founder/CEO, Loeb NYC), Noah Friedman (CEO, Uncharted)
Timestamps: 42:41–48:46

Key Points:

• Entrepreneurship as a ‘Noble Struggle’:
  Entrepreneurs are portrayed as an “oppressed class”—facing constant failure, high risk, and immense personal sacrifice, yet vital to economic dynamism and innovation.
• Distinctively American Approach to Failure:
  Unlike Europe, failure is seen as a learning experience rather than a permanent stigma. “In Europe, you cannot fail...and here, you get a bunch of entrepreneurs, we’ve all had things that have been disastrous, and...we’re allowed to do that in this country.” (Friedman, 46:58)
• America’s Innovation Dominance:
  “Of the 20 most valuable tech companies in the world...16 are American. We're 4% of the world's population. 80% of the great tech companies in the world.” (Friedman, 47:48)
• The Value of Community:
  Forums like Uncharted create vital connections among founders who otherwise face isolation: “It is incredibly lonely, it is incredibly difficult, and it is incredibly noble.” (Friedman, 48:06)

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• On the Difficulty of Beverage Startups:
  “You have to have a lot of money...and the beverage industry’s small. So network, network, network.” —Allison Ellsworth, 04:08

• On Structural Shifts in Work & AI:
  “What you need to teach people is not anymore the how to do that rote work with tools. What people need to learn is how to think creatively.” —Kevin Maney, 37:43

• On Post-Exit Life:
  “People don’t talk about the post-exit blues. It’s a real thing...Money gives you freedom...but it doesn’t give you purpose.” —Allison Ellsworth, 08:42

• On Valuation Mania:
  “When I started out in business, if you made a million dollars, you were going to be so rich...We just jumped from being a millionaire to a trillionaire.” —Alan Patricof, 18:41

• On Innovation Culture:
  “Entrepreneurs make this world, our economy go around...We have this capital ecosystem, which by the way is framed around the possibility of failure.” —Noah Friedman, 45:07/46:58

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Time | |-----------------------------------------|-----------| | Poppy & Serial Entrepreneurship | 02:18–10:19| | Alan Patricof: VC History & AI Mania | 13:31–27:29| | AI & The Human-Machine Company Book | 27:42–39:39| | Entrepreneurial Culture (Loeb & Friedman)| 42:41–48:46|

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Final Takeaway

This Uncharted Special underscores the dynamism—and anxiety—of today’s rapidly changing business and technological landscape. From personal tales of perseverance to macro-level reflections on innovation and the coming AI transformation, the episode provides a rich, nuanced portrait of how leaders are thinking about the future. While AI levels certain playing fields, human creativity, organizational talent, and a cultural acceptance of risk remain America’s greatest assets.

Stay tuned for “The Human Machine Company” in October for a deeper dive into the future of work, AI, and what it means to be uniquely human in an increasingly machine-powered world.

Transcript

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Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News this is Bloomberg BusinessWeek daily reporting from the magazine that helps global leaders stay ahead. Ahead with insight on the people, companies and trends shaping today's complex economy. Plus global business, finance and tech news as it happens. The Bloomberg businessweek Daily Podcast with Carol Massar and Tim Stanweck on Bloomberg Radio.

[Carol Massar]

Carol Massar, Tim Stanwick live here at Uncharted in Southampton. A pool behind us, lots of people around us. There's a lot going on.

[Tim Stanwick]

Yeah, a lot of people drinking poppy too. Did you see that?

[Carol Massar]

I did see that.

[Tim Stanwick]

Lots of people are drinking poppy. You know, find a problem and fix it. That's the context of talking about this company.

[Carol Massar]

How many times have we talked to venture capitalists? Like they say that's what people have to do. That's how you have to think about starting a company. And that's exactly what our next guest has done. And sometimes it's a personal like problem or situation that leads you to creating an amazing company, one that actually gets bought out by PepsiCo for $1.95 billion and that happened last year. We're talking about Poppy. Allison Ellsworth is co founder of the company and she joins us here at Uncharted. Welcome, welcome. Nice to have you here with us.

[Allison Ellsworth]

Thank you. And hey, let's call it 2 billion, right?

[Carol Massar]

Oh, okay. Okay, we'll round up. We're good.

[Allison Ellsworth]

We're going to round up.

[Carol Massar]

It's a lot of money. Tell us though. I love the backstories. I watch these guys know Shark Tank a lot. That was certainly something that played in. But tell us about how you came to create this company.

[Allison Ellsworth]

I think like most great things, I created it because I had a personal problem. I had some guilt gut health problems. I started drinking apple cider vinegar. Hated the taste. And I wanted to create something that tasted better. Have you guys ever taken a shot of apple cider vinegar?

[Tim Stanwick]

No, I have not.

[Carol Massar]

I know lots of people who have though.

[Allison Ellsworth]

Disgusting. So I went to my kitchen and I created the first version of Poppy. Went on to get a deal on Shark Tank. And now we're in every grocery store in the nation. It's wild.

[Carol Massar]

It is pretty wild.

[Tim Stanwick]

It's a really crowded space and it's hard. I mean, you could walk in into any sort of convenience store or grocery store and those are the companies that have succeeded in getting. Getting the shelf space. Just getting the shelf space is difficult. How did you do that?

[Allison Ellsworth]

In the beginning, we hired really smart people. So after getting a deal on Shark Tank, our network was opened up.

[Tim Stanwick]

So that's where everything changed.

[Allison Ellsworth]

You bring in people that know the industry. Beverage is really hard. Someone downstairs just asked me, they wanted to do a beverage and I said one. It's capital intensive. You, you have to have a lot of money. You're shipping liquid across the US Manufacturing shelf life. There's so many things that go into it and you really want to surround yourself with smart people and the beverage industry small. So Network, Network, Network.

[Carol Massar]

It's really about who you know in the beverage industry because you're fighting for shelf space essentially, Right?

[Allison Ellsworth]

Yeah. And then you're working with the retailers and, and we were, before the time, like we were calling ourselves Soda. We were revolutionizing so for the next generation. And they were like, that's hilarious. You know, and so they didn't know where to put us on the shelf sticks. Like basically we're in the sparkling water set. We were, you know, in enhanced water. They didn't know what we were. It was hard.

[Tim Stanwick]

Well, now the idea of a functional beverage, like everybody kind of knows about that you guys were early to that.

[Alan Patricof]

Of course.

[Tim Stanwick]

I'm curious what you see out of the landscape right now that is missing. Like, if you were to develop something right now, what would it be?

[Allison Ellsworth]

Well, I am developing something right now, and we're launching in the fall to fit that gap. But it's what it is is it has to be better for you and not so better for you that it's just like, people don't understand that there's a lot of adaptogens and all of these things. Protein is really big right now, But I don't know. Would you like to drink a carbonated protein drink?

[Tim Stanwick]

I've tried a carbonated protein drink. It wasn't easy to drink.

[Allison Ellsworth]

It's tough, I'm telling you. I wouldn't do that. But I will say something that's just a little bit better. And that's what we did at Poppy.

[Tim Stanwick]

So have you figured it out?

[Allison Ellsworth]

I have figured out. We're launching in the fall and.

[Tim Stanwick]

But launching as is right now, or do you still have to iterate on the product?

[Allison Ellsworth]

We're loaded, we're hiring, we're going. And it's one of those things that we have so much we learned at Poppy from building team and scaling that, like, why would we not do it again?

[Tim Stanwick]

Are you raising money for it? Are you bootstrapping it?

[Allison Ellsworth]

A little bit of both. Right now, we're going to use our own money for about, you know, 2.5 million or so. And then I would love to de risk and bring in strategic partners that can help really catapult the business.

[Carol Massar]

What are you learning about the marketplace in terms of products, types of products that people want today?

[Allison Ellsworth]

You know, it's that movement within Maha that we're really seeing no dyes, no artificial ingredients. It, like, actually drives me insane when my kids have Cheetos or Doritos and Pepsi's changing that. Right. They're taking the dyes out of it. So I think it has to be just 10% better or 30% better. It can't be 100% better for you. People still want full flavor. America likes flavor. Has to taste good, and that has to be king. Taste is king.

[Carol Massar]

Is it more expensive to do things so expensive? Yeah. And without all these additives or it really is cutting corners.

[Allison Ellsworth]

And people get really confused around the word like natural flavors.

[Carol Massar]

Natural means nothing.

[Allison Ellsworth]

It's very confusing. And how it's made and what are in the natural flavors. No, it is. But if you think of, like, it's not organic, it's not your Non gmo. There's so many things that go into it, so I think it just has to be better for you. I do think non GMO is important and people are reading labels more than ever.

[Carol Massar]

Is it more expensive to do though?

[Allison Ellsworth]

It's absolutely more expensive.

[Carol Massar]

Okay, yeah.

[Allison Ellsworth]

Artificial ingredients, all of those things are really cheap. But really what? The most expensive thing is the packaging. The packaging more so than what goes into it. And then the shipping cost and all of that, that goes into it.

[Tim Stanwick]

We're speaking with Allison Ellsworth, the co founder of Poppy, which she sold for $2 billion to Pepsi, we'll call it that last year. She joins us at the uncharted summit.

[Carol Massar]

You can round it up. You are so right.

[Tim Stanwick]

You're doing this for a second time, essentially. I imagine you learned a ton the first time you did this. What are you doing differently to get this product onto the shelves, to get into the hands of consumers, to get consumer and brand awareness across the country that you didn't necessarily know how to do until you maybe failed at doing this or found the right niche for it. With Poppy.

[Allison Ellsworth]

Where entrepreneurs fail a lot of times is they refuse to professionalize their business. So the first thing we're starting with this time is an org chart. We're seeing what can we do to build an incredible team around us. And you hire 18 months ahead. You don't hire for now and you don't let your ego get in the way of growth of like I need to do, I need to do every job. And that's one of the biggest mistakes that entrepreneurs do is they don't hire people smarter than them because they think they know everything. So for us, that's one of the biggest lessons is professionalize the business, bring in like incredible people and build a platform that can scale.

[Carol Massar]

What is it like to sell a business that's been, you know, your baby and you created it and it was really personal for you. I've talked to lots of founders. You know, a lot of them have their name on the company and when you let go, you know, initially it's great because it's a lot of work, a lot of hard work. And your whole life is the business. But at some point it's like, it's hard.

[Alan Patricof]

Yeah.

[Allison Ellsworth]

I mean, essentially it was 10 years of my life never taking vacations. I had three kids while doing it. And then you're gone. Right. The business has gone overnight. You're no longer in it. 80 hours a week. And people don't talk about the post exit blues. It's a real thing. It's an emotional roller coaster. And look, money gives you freedom to do what you want, when you want, with whomever you want, but it doesn't give you purpose. So find your purpose. And that's what we're doing again, because if you find your purpose, money will come.

[Carol Massar]

How soon did you have to find your purpose after selling?

[Allison Ellsworth]

I mean, it took us like golf for like four months. And then I was like, okay, I beat my husband a couple times. I was like, okay, I'm over this. And you know, we had fun, but I really missed the team. I missed the build. It's just the entrepreneurial ism that people have that, that's the craziness. Right. It's why we do it.

[Tim Stanwick]

What's it like raising money this time around? Because you don't, I'm guessing you don't really have to be proactive about it. People are knocking down the door after an exit like that.

[Allison Ellsworth]

It's actually like so many people are like begging to actually invest. But for me, we are only going to take strategic money that can actually make and move. And it's when I say strategic, it's the network. It's how can we network with them?

[Tim Stanwick]

So money from a distributor, money from a company that could potentially buy distributor,

[Allison Ellsworth]

you retailers, people that celebrities, influencers, talent is a huge piece of how we scaled poppy.

[Carol Massar]

But it matters because you want to be able to drive where you want to go, correct?

[Allison Ellsworth]

Yes. And small. Right. I think I could probably call a lot of retailers and go into them really quickly. But I think you have to be intentional and build the brand. Start in like those better for you retailers, from the Whole Foods to the targets to the sprouts, and then really grow versus going so mass, so big, which I think a lot of people could make a mistake.

[Carol Massar]

So you don't want to make the announcement now, Allison?

[Allison Ellsworth]

Oh, I know. Not a great audience. I love Bloomberg. Yes, I know. But yeah, stay tuned.

[Tim Stanwick]

Stay with us.

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[Podcast Host/Announcer]

You're listening to the Bloomberg Businessweek Daily podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.

[Carol Massar]

Alan really needs no introduction. We're gonna give him one anyway. He's a giant in the world of venture capital. He has been in this industry for six decades. He's helped to build some of the best known companies investing in them including Apple, America Online, Office Depot, Cadence Systems, Audible, Axios and more. He is also the founder and former Chairman of New York Magazine. He is Chairman Emeritus and co founder of Great Croft. He co founded Apex partners. More than 50 billion in assets under management. He's also Chairman and co founder of Primetime Partners. And he is with us at Uncharted. You have a long introduction.

[Tim Stanwick]

You've been, you didn't even go through his books, Carol.

[Carol Massar]

He said, I know I did it.

[Advertiser]

Come on.

[Carol Massar]

He says, I've been doing this a long time. You've been doing this a long time?

[Alan Patricof]

56 years in the venture business.

[Allison Ellsworth]

Yeah.

[Alan Patricof]

When I started it wasn't even, they didn't even call it venture capital.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

You have seen.

[Carol Massar]

So I mean what do you think of venture capital today versus what it was like when you started?

[Alan Patricof]

Well, when I started it wasn't called venture capital. I had this idea of going into early stage companies and we opened an office and if I sat there the phone wouldn't even ring. I mean nobody even knew that people like us existed. And if we did, it was all outbound. I mean we had a call and find deals and we had to convince them that it would be a good idea to have a partner. And if you think about it, most people started businesses particularly back then, they didn't want a partner. I mean they were business owners or startup. They, they just didn't think of that. Friends and family was the where they would get money if they had to get money.

[Tim Stanwick]

How do you feel about how it's evolved where basically if a founder has a big exit, they get a family office. That family office starts doing some venture investing. You even have people who really just go to Silicon Valley to try to become venture capitalists. How do you think it's evolved?

[Alan Patricof]

There's a lot of money around. That's the best thing I can say. I and remember this is one person's perspective. There's a irrational exuberance. To quote Alan Greenspan, who passed away recently, valuations of startups early stage deals are out of sight and it makes it difficult to think about how you make venture returns of 10 times in your money. If you know a startup precede is, you know, thinks they're that one here today, you know, $25 million, they've been in business for three months. But that's you're up against that. And what, what caused that?

[Tim Stanwick]

Like it's obviously inflationary or money just

[Carol Massar]

a lot of money being what caused

[Tim Stanwick]

what caused that multiple to happen?

[Alan Patricof]

I don't mean think about it as inflation. I think that there have been too many funds raised, it's been too easy. Although you talk to most people, they'll tell you how hard it is to raise an early stage fund. But certainly, you know, if we go back three, four or five years ago, the industry is Flooded. Because when they read about or hear about people who've made money and lots of big money, they want to be, you know, fomo. That's, you know, that's the problem right now in the AI world. I mean, the AI world is, I am certain, getting a lot of people into the business or investing in it because somebody they know just made 10, 20, 30 million, whatever in a, in an AI deal. It doesn't have revenues yet or certainly doesn't have profits. I mean, you know, we been through cycles before and, you know, we're in one right now of a lot of people want to, want to be part of the game.

[Carol Massar]

Alan, what do you think, though, of a Space X which was around for a long time, but coming out with, you know, a mega value valuation?

[Tim Stanwick]

It's older company that. It's an older company than Facebook.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Stanwick]

That's crazy.

[Kevin Maney]

Yeah.

[Carol Massar]

Or we're looking at OpenAI and anthropic. Like, are these ones that.

[Tim Stanwick]

Those are very new companies.

[Carol Massar]

Are the valuations crazy? These are companies that you talk about that are kind of crazy.

[Alan Patricof]

I want to be honest, I have not invested in the field, and I certainly don't want to deprecate the industry or those kinds of investments, but I can look at it with some certain degree of objectivity because I've seen that kind of excitement in the Internet business. I saw the cellular business. So I've seen it every, every industry where people, you know, want to be part of it. And what's happening, the kind of valuations we're seeing today are, you know, astronomical and it's hard to get your hands around. And I personally, I think it's very exciting. I'm not participating, but if you're buying SpaceX at a $2 trillion valuation and if you're in a venture business, I guess we're out of that stage. But, you know, you want to make 5 or 10 times your money and you got to think it's going to be worth 10 or 20 trillion. These are numbers that, you know, when I started out. I'm sorry.

[Carol Massar]

No, no.

[Alan Patricof]

When I started out in business, if you made a million dollars, you were going to be so rich. And, you know, we never even went through the phase of billion. I mean, we just jumped from being a millionaire to a trillionaire. I mean, I soon. There are people starting out now, today who want to make a trillion. I guess they'll make a billion on the way, but it's just, it's an exciting new area and I think there's going to Be a lot of failures and there'll be some great successes. And I just don't know how to pick it because how do you pick a terminal value and extrapolate it to some revenue multiple or profit level? Because it's so much in the hereafter. But the hereafter is pretty, pretty exciting if it, you know.

[Carol Massar]

Do you think it's wrong? I feel like we have a bit of a gut feeling when you look at the I spend and the build and tapping equity and debt markets and then you have what you. You often hear people talk about the circular financing of a company investing in a company that they're going to be buying tons of products for. Let's course they're going to create some demand. Is it wrong to feel like, well, wait a minute, this feels a little uncomfortable to me.

[Alan Patricof]

It's a little uncomfortable because I mean, I recently someone came to me and said they asked me a question of whether they should invest in a chip company. No, excuse me. They were investing in an AI company and they were being secured by their chips inventory. I mean, you know, I don't know how. I couldn't give an answer. I have no idea.

[Carol Massar]

But it feels a little questionable.

[Alan Patricof]

Right.

[Tim Stanwick]

Well, maybe, maybe a way that I'd be curious to hear your thoughts would be.

[Alan Patricof]

I'm in longevity.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah, I know you are.

[Tim Stanwick]

You know something about longevity. Yeah, we're going to get to that in a second. I just, I want to talk where we are in this cycle maybe because I mean like we mentioned throughout the broadcast that you were early believer in America Online and really what that did for the Internet today started out as

[Alan Patricof]

a game company, by the way.

[Tim Stanwick]

It's incredible. I mean it's how really most people of a certain age were introduced to the World Wide Web. And it created, like I said, you know, it's how Mark Zuckerberg got to experience the Internet and then create Facebook from, from a dorm room. You also saw what happened with AOL Time Warner. It, you know, so I'm just curious where we are in the cycle.

[Alan Patricof]

I say to you that I am concerned by the extraordinary interest that everybody has in the subject of AI and it has so many unknowns to it. I certainly am as excited as everybody else. And I have, I think it's either five or six, six AI search engines on my, on my phone, which I'm happy to show you. And I use, try to use as many as I have and I, I probably should have another one or two. And I like playing around with it and I Use it constructively and who knows, I mean, how big this is. A, this is probably, I, I will say it's probably the most significant revolution and I've been part of the PC revolution. I participated in through Apple, I, I invested in the first cell phone company which was through an auction of spectrum by the US government. I was in the storage area, I was. Internet area. I was, I didn't participate, but I certainly lived through the chip revolution. And probably as exciting as AI is bio, the biotech revolution, which is still going on because that also has infinite amounts of upside. Just in the last few weeks it's, it's really exciting.

[Carol Massar]

A bunch of deals and things happening

[Alan Patricof]

stuff and pancreas solving, pancreatic cancer and prostate possibly and.

[Michael Loeb]

Yeah.

[Alan Patricof]

And they're now 153 chance trials going on for dementia and some form of cognitive problem.

[Carol Massar]

Well, let's talk about, because you have been an investor in longevity for, for a while. What is you think the most interesting companies, opportunities and ideas that have been coming across when it comes to longevity?

[Alan Patricof]

Well, you know, we, we don't really have any public companies as yet and I don't, I don't think we can put it the same classes as AI, I'm honest. I don't see that kind of extraordinary upside. Valuations are very high relative. There are very few exits and the valuations for these exits are not extraordinary. So I can't put it the same area as competing with people who are investing in AI, But I mean I personally invested in a company that's in a biotech area working on solving the problem of radiation therapy in solving all kinds of cancer cuts. A company called Alpha Tour which has got, using alpha rays instead of gamma rays, not yet fully on the market. But most of the things we're involved in are caregiving, telemedicine. We have a chain of, I'd say longevity clinics, about 25, called Cenegenics, which is, that's a very hot area today. Everybody wants to find some way where they can do something, whether it's taking hormones or taking vitamins, whatever, and, and, and living the right kind of life that they can live longer.

[Tim Stanwick]

Well, we've asked you the easy questions, so now let's get to the hard questions and solving the political problems of our time. Long time.

[Alan Patricof]

I thought you were talking about my book. I mean that, that's political.

[Tim Stanwick]

Yeah, long. You're long time active in the Democratic Party. Yeah, we just went through some primaries in New York. A lot of questions about what happens in the midterms who Democrats will put up for 20, 28. In your view, what should the future of the Democratic Party be?

[Alan Patricof]

I think the Democratic Party, it's starting to evolve. I mean, I haven't been specifically particularly a supporter of anyone in particular, including the mayor, and I'm very much aware of the sweep he had in influence. I think the Democratic Party party is a more, in my opinion a more open party than the Republicans, which right now is just, I mean it's, it's a one mind. I think that the influence of the Social Democrats is if the Democratic Democrats are smart, will be open to their influence along with other elements and that perhaps the party will be not a unidimensional party but will be have meant more open arms and bring in people of different, you know, some who focus on diversity and some who concerned with income disparity, which is an area, by the way. I know it may be surprising, but I am very, very concerned about income. Income disparity and what's going on right now is going to create more billionaires, trillionaires and the working class. You know, most people in this country still have to have W2s and earn a living and it's hard to equate that. And I think that has to be very much addressed in the upcoming election. I think the Democrats have a lot of, I think, I personally believe we're going to sweep the elections in November. And that's because of how I feel the other party has behaved and based on its leadership. And I think it's, it's created a very toxic environment. I think Democrats will come out in force wherever they are for any segment of the Democrats. And I think that there are a lot of Good people in 28 who are, you know, sitting around and not sitting around there. They're making themselves known. And I think you're going to see me. You could see another TV interview of 10 people again, but 10 really good candidates. I'm looking, I'm looking forward to it when I, I hope I can get emotionally involved, that I want to go out and support one or more of them.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week daily podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg business app or watch us live on YouTube.

[Tim Stanwick]

We are all trying to figure out how to work, how to live, how to thrive in an AI world. Nobody really knows what it's going to be like, how it will change productivity and how it will become part of our lives, except what for Our next two guests.

[Narrator/Advertiser]

That's true.

[Tim Stanwick]

They have all the answers.

[Carol Massar]

Fortunately, you're going to find out they

[Tim Stanwick]

wrote a book about it. The book is coming out in October and they're going to share some of their secrets with us today.

[Carol Massar]

They are indeed. Like Ananth is global managing partner of the venture capital firm Next 47. Kevin Maney is a New York Times bestselling author. He's written many books, including the Transformation Principles, also New York Times bestseller the Two Second Advantage. He's also wrote the Maverick and His Machine. Thomas Watson Senior in the Making of IBM. We've been talking about that. He likes to write about a lot of stuff. They do both. Join us at Uncharted here in Southampton. They've got a new book coming out, the two of them. The Human Machine Company. It's the name of the book and it comes out in October. Welcome, welcome. I do feel like this idea of AI and what it means for all of us as workers, as individuals, and how it impacts our life. Tell us a little bit about the book. Either of you can start.

[Ananth]

Okay.

[Kevin Maney]

You get first shot.

[Ananth]

Yeah. I think we were very deliberate in calling the book the Human Machine Company because we wanted to. Instead of saying AI throughout the book, we use the word machine intelligence. So I think the idea there is to say we've had a breakthrough in machines being able to do cognitive work, which is really the chatgpt moment that all of us experienced. And the book is really saying just. Just like electricity allowed us to do physical work and lighting and other things. We think that this machine intelligence is a very important utility that will change all of our lives in very significant ways. But at the same time, it's not some undefinable magic that we have to wait for, like AGI or where AI is just replacing a human. So the way we thought about our book is how does the combination of the person and the human being and the machine intelligence working together, how does that change how we do everything and how does it change organizations?

[Tim Stanwick]

Kevin, come on in here. Because you, like Carol said, you've written a lot of books, and writing is one of those things that I think many people would argue could be very easily disrupted by some of the technology that.

[Kevin Maney]

Have you read some of the writing that AI does?

[Tim Stanwick]

Yeah, nowadays.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah.

[Tim Stanwick]

But in the future, it could be better and better. I mean, I was shocked to see what it can do in a really short, like, early. An early iteration of it. And look, we talk. I've talked to college professors who are literally teaching, like seniors going off to medical school about medical writing. And they're like, it's so clear that these kids are putting their stuff into chatbots and they're doing it. Are you after, after working on this book, working with, with Locke, are you, are you optimistic about the future?

[Kevin Maney]

Well, well, yes, but, but let me answer. There's a, there's a couple different questions there. One about, right, so like one of the things we get to in the book is that so right now AI and you know, capabilities are, are something new. And you know, so, you know, one company adopts it and it seems like, you know, that's got a competitive advantage because they're doing stuff with AI and some other companies. But that's going to change completely, right over the next three to five years or whatever. And every company is going to have their access to, you know, to AI. So then what the AI can produce all just basically becomes the same, you know, a level playing field for everybody. So then the difference is what can the humans do on top of that, what can the humans imagine that you couldn't possibly have done before? And the same thing is true with writing. I mean, look, you can even look at it today.

[Michael Loeb]

A.

[Kevin Maney]

Let's say that writing is kind of going to constantly get better and better, but all AI writing is going to be this sort of like, you know, level set the same, right? What's going to be the differentiator is like what somebody like me or you guys can bring to, you know, to the conversation that AI is not going to be able to come up with because AI is basically trained on everything that's happened before. It's not something that thinks about like something that is never existed before.

[Alan Patricof]

Right?

[Kevin Maney]

Like that's, that's, that's the human being role. So look, I mean, you know, every, every iteration of, of new technologies that have come along have automated away some kinds of jobs. It's always created new kinds of jobs we never thought of before. But it's also given people, you know, ways to, to, you know, create an entirely new ways right on top of like, you don't have to go, you know, farmers don't have to go out and like plow the field by hand anymore so they can like come up with new crops to do it. You know, I mean, you can think of a thousand different examples.

[Carol Massar]

But like when we have these conversations about mythos or something, you know, that you are creating something that can actually think and make decisions and enact upon it, like, do we need to come on back in? Do we need to Kind of think about this differently. What is going to be that human interaction that we have?

[Ananth]

I hear various versions of this, like, you know, there's AGI and the ability to think and so on. But I think we've actually done some work to really try to understand what LLMs are and what they actually do. They don't really think what they are. At least the models as they exist today are probabilistic machines. They're very wonderful ones because they, given a question, they reconfigure themselves to give you a very, very legitimate answer that makes sense to you, to us as human beings based on what they've been trained on. But it is not right to think about them as actually thinking. At least that's the way we understand LLMs as they exist today.

[Noah Friedman]

Today.

[Ananth]

Today.

[Carol Massar]

As they exist today.

[Ananth]

Exist today. And there are other new model variations that people are coming up with. And I personally feel like this whole idea of AGI is more. The definition that I'm more comfortable with to say we don't really have to go to AGI or anything like that for certain activities. Can the machine intelligence do human like reasoning? And that is very possible today. So I don't want to substitute that for thinking. In fact, what Kevin and I write in the book is to say practically every human job we can conceive of can be split into to things that now a cognitive machine can do and then a human being can do. And this is going to happen in job after job, whether you're in sales or product or whatever.

[Tim Stanwick]

Will the cognitive, will the machine part of that bucket get bigger and bigger as the technology gets better?

[Ananth]

Yeah, that's the beauty of it. It will get bigger and bigger.

[Tim Stanwick]

But some people might say that's not necessarily beauty if the human part of it gets smaller and smaller.

[Kevin Maney]

Smaller. Well, but, but, and it's hard to believe this looking at, you know, like where we sit now. We're kind of like in the middle of a plot that's evolving and you can't see where, where it goes. But generally speaking, like if you look at, we looked at history a lot.

[Carol Massar]

Yeah.

[Kevin Maney]

To try to understand. And we also turned to a, a really amazing paper that we ran across. What was the title of that paper? Which one are we talking? The, the Princeton paper. Normal AI is a normal technology.

[Carol Massar]

Oh, okay.

[Kevin Maney]

So these, these Princeton researchers did this paper and they were basically kind of pointing out like you use historical examples and that that AI is, is not all that different from other breakthrough technologies like electricity or the Internet. And it actually Takes a long time for the, the technology may change really quickly, but humans don't. And organizations, which are organizations of humans take time to truly absorb these technologies and, and, and make a, know a new way of working. But each time that that does it does that it also creates entirely new things that because humans, human nature is you, you know, you, you want to do, you want to work, you want to create, you want to, you want to get ahead, you want to make money. You know, I can't imagine this world where suddenly everybody just goes, ah, the machines could do everything. I'm just going to, you know, sit around and play golf.

[Carol Massar]

Well, I don't think that people, I don't think people want that.

[Tim Stanwick]

Steve Cohen's betting on that world.

[Carol Massar]

But yes, yeah, he did, he is, but I don't think people want that. But it's like, you know, when you're a publicly held company, you have fiduciary responsibilities to make yourself as profitable as possible. And so if you think I can do this equipment, I mean we've seen it before, like you pull in different systems technology that makes you more efficient and you don't need as many workers. So like, I just wonder.

[Ananth]

Well, with the competition, competition would also do the same. So the way we, at least we are more optimistic about the adoption of AI as you can see and not very dystopian.

[Carol Massar]

Devil's advocate.

[Ananth]

Yeah, no, we're not very dystopian about it. What we're saying is like it is going to be available as a utility and maybe the cost of it is going to come down and maybe people wouldn't consume one model, but they consume many models to do.

[Carol Massar]

We actually had a guest who said that the costs, that the cost of

[Ananth]

tokens were coming down, they have come down massively. But again, many, many different things have happened. But what we are saying is that what the secret of a business is lies in its people, its methods and its data generally. And AI. The, the adoption of AI by all the competitors in the industry still basically levels the playing field on that front, right? And some people can get a momentary advantage and fire small number of people, but then fundamentally competitors are going to catch up. And then what's different about you? And we talk about this example, if you are writing a customer success AI for let's say Nordstrom or Walmart, you can't necessarily like what's different. The AI intelligence is the same, but the methods, their decision making, the, the data that Nordstrom has is different from what Walmart has and what they're trying to achieve is different.

[Tim Stanwick]

So Kevin, one thing that I'm interested in is the way that schools need to change or the way education needs to change. Higher education needs to change to prepare students to enter a world that is a human machine world. What do you think is the answer to that?

[Kevin Maney]

Well, you know, so one of the things we get to in the book is that the, what you might call the last mile intellectual things that people do. Which is like coding's a perfect example, right?

[Narrator/Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Kevin Maney]

Somebody dreams up, you know, an application that should, you know, the world needs and you know, how it's to work or whatever. But then, you know, before AI right like a team of people had to do what the last mile work which was basically we using a tool to create something. You know, things like, you know, just writing like press releases in a marketing. I mean that's, that's just like that's last mile work. Those things are going to go away and if those things go away, then what you need to, you know, teach people is not anymore like the how to do those, how to, how to do that rote work with tools. What you, what people need to learn is how to think creatively, how to, you know, and we, this goes back to like you've probably read and heard a lot of this is that like liberal arts is the new, you know, the new master.

[Carol Massar]

We just had a conversation.

[Tim Stanwick]

I mean Danielle Amade talks about it.

[Kevin Maney]

Right. Because, because it's, it's like it's about how to think, how to solve problems,

[Carol Massar]

how to ask the right questions, how

[Kevin Maney]

to put, how to put a bunch of things together, dots together that, that, you know, no machine's ever going to do. Those are the things that are going to be of, of great value, you know, going forward. And that's the way I just hope

[Tim Stanwick]

the kids who are staying up late working on those papers are actually working on those papers in the liberal arts colleges and they're not putting them into chat GPT.

[Ananth]

But I agree with you.

[Carol Massar]

I hope so too.

[Kevin Maney]

You know there's we, we talked to this guy, really interesting book called the Skill.

[Carol Massar]

Just have about 20 seconds.

[Tim Stanwick]

Okay.

[Kevin Maney]

Oh so, but, but this is a problem that that is being addressed and that others are aware of right now is that if you don't train this younger generation to do you to have this kind of thinking, we're going to start to lose that. And, and if, if that, if we lose that, that's going to be an enormous problem for society.

[Carol Massar]

Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily Coming up

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

after this,

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[Podcast Host/Announcer]

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5am Eastern. Listen on Apple Carplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg business app or watch us live on YouTube.

[Carol Massar]

We've got two voices that are key to making this all happen. To be quite honest. We're talking about Michael Loeb. He is the founder and CEO of Loeb nyc. Noah Friedman, CEO of Uncharted, Co founder of Top Shelf Ventures, and again, sitting right here to wrap up the day.

[Tim Stanwick]

But they are our hosts.

[Carol Massar]

They are our hosts. So we should say thank you. Thank you, thank you.

[Noah Friedman]

Like this.

[Carol Massar]

Like that, like that. It's been an interesting day. We've had some amazing conversations. I'm sure you guys have been out and about talking to folks. Michael, what are you hearing?

[Noah Friedman]

What's, well, standing out? First of all, I'm hearing that the food is great. Have you had any of the food?

[Carol Massar]

Do you know what? I am starving and all I keep doing is smelling all this amazing food. So as soon as I'm out of

[Noah Friedman]

this gym, I'm going to bring you some.

[Tim Stanwick]

What a teaser.

[Carol Massar]

Don't worry, I'm going to hold you to it.

[Tim Stanwick]

I had the tacos earlier. They were fantastic.

[Noah Friedman]

Yeah, they are fantastic.

[Tim Stanwick]

And one of the things about this is everybody gets a steak, apparently.

[Noah Friedman]

Oh, yeah?

[Tim Stanwick]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

It's not just a steak, okay.

[Tim Stanwick]

It's a tomahawk.

[Noah Friedman]

Everybody gets a tomahawk.

[Tim Stanwick]

What?

[Noah Friedman]

Oh, yeah.

[Michael Loeb]

Are you feeding him lines? What's going on here?

[Carol Massar]

All right, stop talking about food because I'm starving. So tell me about the conversations.

[Noah Friedman]

All right, but before that, you should know one thing, which is Noah and I share a lot of things, including we're both half Jewish.

[Carol Massar]

Okay?

[Noah Friedman]

That is true. The food is going to be good. Food is going to be good.

[Tim Stanwick]

Is that what you were expecting to say?

[Noah Friedman]

I know that's what you're expecting. By the way, there's a secret about the half Jewish thing. Ready?

[Carol Massar]

Okay. Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

Where the Jewish part is from here to here.

[Carol Massar]

Okay.

[Noah Friedman]

Computational math, business models, like, no problem. Okay. Down from here to here. Right? Goyum. Right. And if you don't know what that word means, look it up. You know what it means? Goyim. Yeah, you can tell we know your shiksa.

[Carol Massar]

I know, right?

[Noah Friedman]

So, you know, we. We can bench press. We can do a lot of things that, you know, I mean, Jews are great at, like staying inside all day. Right. But, you know, we can actually do athletic.

[Carol Massar]

Not on the nose.

[Kevin Maney]

How many times are you guys tired

[Michael Loeb]

of talking about bench pressing yet? I figure it's got to be exhausting.

[Carol Massar]

I'm never tired of talking about bench press all day.

[Noah Friedman]

Talking about bench press.

[Carol Massar]

I bench press AI every day.

[Tim Stanwick]

One of the, one of the things that I want to talk about, and I actually heard you talking about, about this just before our broadcast, Michael. And that's the idea of the sort of the DNA of Uncharted. And that's making sure that the people here are not just enjoying good food, but they're enjoying good food and conversation, which with each other. Because that's what it's about. It's not about meeting one or two new people, you said it's about meeting 10 new people, it's about meeting 20 new people. It's about that network. That's what this is about.

[Noah Friedman]

Well, let me, let me start by saying the original thesis and what got us going in this is that entrepreneurs are an oppressed class, right? And they work like the dickens. You know, they're 100, 120. There are more, by the way, divorces of mental health issues. And they do that despite the fact that four, three companies out of four fail. Right? Three out of four venture backed companies fail. And these are the people, by the way. And once you're an entrepreneur, you're unfit to work at Bloomberg or anywhere else. Right. Because you are, you're, you're, you're just, you're just incorrigible, constitutionally unemployable. Unemployable. So you got to get back on the horse and start something else. So it is high, highly risky. The pay sucks until there's, you know, a payout.

[Carol Massar]

Right.

[Noah Friedman]

And if it happens, if it happens, if it happens. Right. And you know, the second most prevalent form of funding is they raid their own 401k so they're mortgaging their future for the present. That conviction, you know, and you dare not tell your significant other because that'd be a problem. But this is for entrepreneurs because entrepreneurs make this world, our economy go around and all you have to do. And you guys can trot out all these statistics, compare us to the eu. EU has more people than the United States. Oh my God, we've got 10 times more unicorns, giant businesses. Think of what you guys have been talking about all last week. Space X and anthropic and all that stuff. That's not from Germany, that's not from France.

[Carol Massar]

What's the magic sauce here in the United States?

[Noah Friedman]

Okay, I've had this conversation with many Europeans and I believe, and we believe, believe there's many, many things. Like we have this ecosystem.

[Chase Bank Advertiser]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

This capital ecosystem, which by the way is framed around the possibility of Failure, Right. And in Europe, you cannot fail. You just can't fail. It is something you wear with you all the time and forever. And here you get a bunch of entrepreneurs. We've all done this. We've all had things that have, like, you know, been disastrous. And then in retrospect, it was like, what was I thinking, you know, at the time? And you get them around in a circle, you give them each a beer, and they talk about it and they say, ha, ha ha. I was such an idiot with that one. We're allowed to do that in this country. And we have. I'll give you one stat which is of the 20 most valuable tech companies in the world, 20 most valuable tech companies is measured by market gap. 16 are American.

[Alan Patricof]

Yeah.

[Noah Friedman]

So we're 4% of the world's population. 80% of the great tech companies in the world.

[Tim Stanwick]

Hey, Noah, come on in here. Before we. We let you guys go and Carol can actually go get some food, I'm just curious about the ideas that you have been able to interact with here because you are one of these founders in addition to being the CEO of Uncharted.

[Michael Loeb]

Yeah, I mean, look, since last Uncharted, I've co founded a new company. I think you just interviewed my co founder moments ago. And I can you tell tell you now, having seen this from multiple sides of the table, literally and figuratively, the journey of being a founder is one of the most difficult. Getting your teeth kicked in every single day. And yet there is just no other way for people that are bred this way and born this way and trained this way from people like Michael, who I'm forever grateful to have as a mentor and partner. It is incredibly lonely, it is incredibly difficult, and it is incredibly noble. And it's equally rare to be in a environment like this, which is not only stunning, but so potent with conversations of people who just get it. They understand what it means to go through it and build and why it

[Tim Stanwick]

is so damn important.

[Podcast Host/Announcer]

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