Instant Reaction: Judge Rejects Subpoenas of Fed in Powell Case, DOJ to Appeal

Summary

Podcast Summary: Bloomberg Intelligence

Episode: Instant Reaction: Judge Rejects Subpoenas of Fed in Powell Case, DOJ to Appeal
Date: March 13, 2026
Hosts: Paul Sweeney, Scarlet Fu
Guests: June Grasso (Bloomberg Legal Analyst), Michael McKee (Bloomberg Economics and Policy Correspondent), Tim O'Brien (Bloomberg Opinion Senior Executive Editor)

---

Overview

This episode offers immediate analysis and reactions to a Washington, D.C. judge's decision to reject subpoenas targeting the Federal Reserve in the DOJ’s attempt to investigate Fed Chair Jerome (Jay) Powell. The focus is on the implications for the ongoing legal battle, Fed leadership succession, market and investor confidence, and the political dynamics driving these events. Notable participants include legal and policy experts who break down the legal reasoning, political motivations, and economic impacts of this high-profile case.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Judge Rejects Subpoenas of the Federal Reserve (01:46–03:48)

• Background: U.S. attorney Jeanine Pirro’s investigation targeted Fed Chair Jay Powell, issuing subpoenas that threatened to delay the confirmation of Kevin Warsh as Powell's successor.
• Judge's Ruling: Judge Boasberg denied the subpoenas, criticizing the lack of evidence and the political motivations behind the investigation.
  • Notable Quote:
    • June Grasso (Legal Analyst):
      “He said there’s no evidence that Powell committed any crimes. They presented no evidence. On the other side, there’s a mountain of evidence that this is about retribution against Powell by Trump.” (03:00)
• Legal Foundation: The judge cited Rule 17 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, emphasizing that subpoenas must not be "unreasonable or oppressive."
• Judge Boasberg's Reputation: Known for previous rulings against the Trump administration, described as respected but branded an “activist judge” by Trump allies.

---

Political & Legal Ramifications (03:48–07:42)

• Background on Judge Boasberg: Appointed by both Republican and Democratic presidents, previously targeted by the Trump administration for alleged ethics violations (unsuccessfully).
• Rhetoric: Labeling of Boasberg as an “activist judge” is critiqued as a common tactic to undermine judges who rule against the administration.
• Fed’s Perspective:
  • Michael McKee: “The Fed had always taken the position there was no crime here… This was sort of the Fed’s longer shot strategy, trying to get the subpoenas quashed… they won on that.” (05:22)
  • The decision is a win for Fed independence, but the DOJ's intent to appeal means “it’s not over yet.”

---

Next Steps & Challenges for the DOJ (06:33–08:36)

• DOJ's Options:
  • Appeal the ruling and/or ask for reconsideration due to some procedural date errors.
  • Track record of D.C. Attorney’s office on grand jury indictments is poor, especially in cases perceived as “overcharged.”
• Feasibility of Charges:
  • June Grasso: “Getting a criminal case based on statements that are mistaken. That is a very tough case to make… perjury cases are just really cost overruns.” (07:41)
  • Michael McKee clarifies: “This is about his (Powell’s) testimony to the Senate Banking Committee… there was no lie in it.” (07:44)

---

Fed Leadership Uncertainty & Kevin Warsh’s Nomination (09:14–11:24)

• Succession Mechanics:
  • Jay Powell can remain as a Fed Governor until January 2028, but his chairmanship officially ends May 15. The FOMC could elect him chair until a successor is confirmed.
    • Michael McKee: “They don’t have to do anything. He just stays as chair until and unless he either resigns or Warsh comes in.” (09:50)
• Political Gridlock:
  • Thom Tillis blocks Warsh’s committee confirmation pending legal resolution, effectively delaying Trump’s nominee.
  • The legal appeal’s duration means Warsh’s confirmation could be stalled for months.

---

Planning, Political Strategy, and Administrative Chaos (11:24–14:52)

• Lack of Strategy:
  • Tim O’Brien critiques the administration’s handling:
    • “It would be just wise for them to let go of it and smooth the waters and get Warsh right in there… The fact that they’re not suggests… they actually don’t have a blueprint… it’s not clear how well the President’s team communicated with Pirro.” (11:53)
• Chaos as a Feature or Bug:
  • O’Brien distinguishes between goals and strategy:
    • “Trump clearly has goals… self-aggrandizement or self-preservation… but that’s not having a strategy. Strategies require patience… all the rest is throwing mud up against a wall to see what sticks.” (14:47)

---

Fed Independence, Market Reaction, and Economic Outlook (14:52–19:59)

• Anticipated Fed Meeting:
  • Powell likely to defer comment due to ongoing litigation, focus on current macroeconomic challenges.
  • Michael McKee: “I’m sure when asked about it, [Powell] will say… we agree with the court, and that’s all I’m going to say because it’s under appeal.” (15:12)
• Interest Rates & Economic Headwinds:
  • War and high oil prices complicate the Fed’s outlook; no imminent rate cuts expected by any potential chair.
  • O’Brien: “All the bells are chiming towards [stagflation]… in Trump’s first White House, he had advisors who talked back… now, what you have is an apparatus around him that’s enabling.” (16:30–16:35)
• Fed Independence Security:
  • McKee: “The markets feel basically that Fed independence is strong… the more this goes on, the more people stick up for the institution. Whether they love Jay Powell or hate him, the Fed itself is more important.” (19:59)

---

Politics, Media, and Public Perceptions (17:23–20:51)

• Pirro’s Press Conference:
  • Seen as combative and performative, aimed at pleasing President Trump rather than broader audiences.
  • Tim O’Brien: “It reminded me of the Attorney General’s recent congressional testimony… I’m here because Donald Trump is the best president… our goal is to achieve x and therefore we will do it.” (17:44–17:45)
• Shift in Administration’s Media Relations:
  • Defense Department has pushed out mainstream press, replaced by right-wing media. In contrast, DOJ faces more antagonistic questioning.
  • McKee: “She was responding to… how does this fit in with all the other cases that you have failed to get grand juries to indict? And that made her very angry at the end.” (18:52)

---

Energy, Market Volatility, and the Trump "Put" (19:59–22:16)

• President and Market Sentiment:
  • Continued debate around Trump’s willingness and ability to stabilize markets.
  • Tim O’Brien: “He can’t just massage the energy trade forever… if both sides dig in, we’re going to have a full-blown energy crisis.” (20:20–21:25)
• Short Timeframe for Resolution:
  • Trump cannot draw out these crises indefinitely, unlike prior trade conflicts—time and market pressures magnified by global events.

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Judge Boasberg and Political Retaliation:
  • June Grasso: “There’s a mountain of evidence that this is about retribution against Powell by Trump.” (03:00)
• On Lack of Legal Grounds:
  • Michael McKee: “The Fed had always taken the position there was no crime here.” (05:22)
• On White House Chaos vs. Strategy:
  • Tim O’Brien: “This is an attempt to impose a rational structure on what’s an inherently irrational process… Trump is a chaotic force of nature.” (13:47)
• On Fed Independence:
  • Michael McKee: “The markets feel… Fed independence is strong… whether they love Jay Powell or hate Jay Powell, the Fed itself is more important.” (19:59)

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:46: News update and case background
• 02:38: Detailed review of the judge's opinion and legal rationale
• 05:22: Fed's reaction and next legal steps
• 09:14: Fed succession mechanics explained
• 11:39: Tim O’Brien on administration planning and lack thereof
• 14:52: Outlook for Powell and the upcoming Fed meeting
• 16:23: White House advisers and economic outlook
• 17:23: Assessing Pirro’s combative press conference
• 19:17: Fed independence and market confidence
• 20:20: The President’s influence on energy and markets

---

Conclusion

The episode provides a nuanced, insider account of the fallout from the judge's rebuke of the DOJ’s case against Jay Powell. The main takeaways include the legal fragility of the charges, the political motives and dysfunction driving the administration’s approach, the uncertain but robust status of Fed independence, and the broad implications for leadership succession at the Fed and for investor confidence as political and market headwinds intensify.

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

When the rest of the markets slow down, the futures market keeps moving. Did you know that CME Group S&P 500 and NASDAQ 100 futures trade nearly 24 hours with great liquidity. In the ETF markets, volume and liquidity lessens after 4pm until the next morning. But with futures, you get trading opportunities both day and night. Learn [e-mail] EquityFutures

[Tim O'Brien]

the thing about AI for business, it may not automatically fit the way your business works. At IBM, we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across hr, IT and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slashed repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business ideas. IBM.

[Commercial Narrator]

With Bali from iShares, you get access to both monthly income and growth potential in one simple ETF. It's the best of both worlds. Discover Bali iShares Large Cap Premium Income Active ETF iShares the market is yours. Visit www.ishares.com to view a perspective for investment objectives, risks, fees, expenses and other information that you should read and consider carefully before investing. Risks include principal loss and the use of derivatives, which could increase risks and volatility. Monthly income is not guaranteed. Prepared by BlackRock Investments ll

[Host/Moderator]

Bloomberg Audio

[Legal Analyst]

Studios Podcasts Radio News

[Commercial Narrator]

this is a breaking news update from Bloomberg. Instant reaction and analysis from our 3,000 journalists and analysts around the world.

[Host/Moderator]

U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. jeanine Pirro vowed to continue her investigation of Federal Reserve Chair Jay Powell after a judge earlier rejected subpoenas issued to the central bank threatening to delay the confirmation of Kevin Warsh as Powell's successor. She spoke from her office in D.C.

[Commercial Narrator]

jerome Powell today is now bathed in immunity, preventing my office from investigating the Federal Reserve.

[Legal Analyst]

This is wrong and it is without legal authority.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

That's U.S. attorney for Washington, D.C. jeanine Pirro. We're joined by June Grasso, Bloomberg Legal Analyst and host of Bloomberg law weeknights at 6 and 10pm on Bloomberg Radio. Michael McKee is with us too. He's Bloomberg TV and Radio International economics and policy correspondent. June, you brought a printout. This is the full opinion. What have you found?

[Legal Analyst]

Let me first read you, if I may, the first few lines. Jerome Too late. Powell has done it again. It's too late. And actually he's too angry, stupid and too political to have the job of Fed Chair. He's costing our country trillions of dollars.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

It sounds Like a true social post,

[Legal Analyst]

the judge started with a page and a half of social posts by President Trump.

[Host/Moderator]

So all legal rulings are like that. Right.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

These days.

[Legal Analyst]

I've never seen one like this because usually they don't even give a preface. He just went right into it. And you know, the thing is that he said there's, there's no evidence that Powell committed any crimes. They presented no evidence. On the other side, there's a mountain of evidence that this is about retribution against Powell by Trump. And that's why Judge Boasberg put that out. So political.

[Host/Moderator]

Can we read retribution as political or no?

[Legal Analyst]

Yes, yes, I definitely think so. And you heard Jeanine Pirros talk about how there's no and there's no this is against the rules and all that stuff. Well, you know, I'll just read from Rule 17 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, which prohibits subpoenas that are unreasonable or oppressive. So the judge found that this was unreasonable and probably oppressive. So, you know, this is a judge that's well known. He's the chief judge of the D.C. circuit.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

Judge Boasberg you're talking about.

[Legal Analyst]

Yes, he's very well respected. But you also might know he came into prominence because he's the judge who told the Trump administration to turn the planes around when they were flying Venezuelans to El Salvador.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Host/Moderator]

Well, we heard from our Elliot Stein of Bloomberg Intelligence. Right. Who said that this is a judge who's been kind of a thorn in the side of the Trump administration.

[Legal Analyst]

They went after him for ethics violations and failed. So it was about a conference, a private statement that he made at a conference of judges, and they actually tried to pursue ethics complaint against him, and that was dismissed.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

So he was, he was appointed in 2011 by President Obama, but earlier he was appointed to the Superior Court of D.C. by President George W. So he's had support from. And you know, we're talking about this because these days we. There's a lot of. He was called an activist judge by Jeanine Pirro.

[Legal Analyst]

Not only that, by Pam Bondi months and months ago. I have, I can, you know, find the quotes of her calling him and actually calling out Judge Boasberg and a few other judges as activist judges. So, I mean, that's a term that is used a lot by people in this administration. And, you know, you really can't put any credit on that because they call dyed in the wool Republican judges appointed by Ronald Reagan activists.

[Host/Moderator]

Mike, I want you to come in. You're going to stick around a little bit later. And also talk with our Tim o' Brien about all of this. But, I mean, is Jay Powell sitting there being like yahoo or it's not over yet. So he's, you know, because remember, he made that video after these subpoenas and was, was unheard of to see a Fed chair come out and do something like that.

[Michael McKee]

Well, he's not rejoicing. I'm sure he's happy with the ruling. And the Fed had always taken the position there was no crime here. And they point to the senators who all said there was no crime here, which Judge Boasberg notes in his decision. And the administration has just continued to pursue this. So the Fed has had to sit back. This was sort of the Fed's longer shot strategy, trying to get the subpoenas quashed. It's sort of the first line of defense. And they won on that. So now they don't even have to go farther unless she wins her appeal. But Powell is going to have to wait and see what happens with the appeal. And if then she finds some other way to try to indict him for something because they're trying to get him. It's very interesting in Judge Bloosberg's opinion, he paraphrases a man for all seasons when he compares, he lays out all these tweets that the President put out. And he said, this basically comes down to, will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest. And Jeanine Pirro is the person who's trying to do that.

[Host/Moderator]

So go back June, then to the legal case. What's next? What does she, what does she have to do to get these appeals?

[Legal Analyst]

First of all, she said that this gives him blanket immunity. That's not the case. First of all, she's going to appeal. And also they're asking for a reconsideration because she said the judge had some dates wrong. But does that matter legally? Well, it may not matter legally based on, you know, we have to look at what the context of it. But, you know, will he reconsider? Maybe he'll reconsider, but I doubt that he's going to come out with a different opinion. So that's, that's next is the, is the appeal. And she can also, she can also find, as Mike said, other information to move her case forward. And the other thing is she and particularly the D.C. attorney's office has had a lot of trouble getting grand juries to indict people in cases and having grand juries reject cases that are, you know, overcharged this case. I have to say, getting some a criminal case based on mistaken, based on statements that are mistaken. That is a very tough case to make. I mean, perjury cases are just really cost overruns.

[Host/Moderator]

This is something the president kind of,

[Legal Analyst]

I mean, it's what doesn't he.

[Michael McKee]

This was not about cost overruns.

[Host/Moderator]

Oh, okay.

[Michael McKee]

This is about his testimony to the Senate Banking Committee.

[Host/Moderator]

Okay.

[Michael McKee]

When he was asked about the cost overruns. And what he said was sort of evasive because apparently he didn't have all the information right in front of him. But there was no lie in it. And Tim Scott, the chairman of the Banking Committee, said there was. He didn't lie to us. The rest of the bank committee said he didn't lie to us. But that's what Pirro is trying to build a case on, which is what

[Host/Moderator]

she highlighted also in the press conference today. Right. In terms of the cost.

[Michael McKee]

Well, yeah, it all revolves around the cost.

[Host/Moderator]

Okay.

[Michael McKee]

But he didn't. She hasn't tried to charge him with anything in relation to the cost. It's a fishing expedition. If they got some paperwork from the Fed, if the subpoenas had gone forward that showed he did something wrong. But that's fishing expeditions.

[Legal Analyst]

Well, I was going to say that if you remember the Barry Bonds case years and years and years ago where they were trying baseball player. Yes. They were trying to get him perjury based on statements he made to a grand jury. And if you read it, he just went around and around. He didn't lie, specifically seven years of pretrial and things like that. He finally got convicted and then it was, it was overturned on appeal. I mean, these are not easy cases to make. And by the time it goes through, Jeanine Pirro will probably be out of the D.C. office.

[Michael McKee]

Kevin Marsh has to wait seven years.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

We got. Our conversation is going to continue. You have work to do. We have to say goodbye to you. June Grasso, Bloomberg legal analyst. She's host of Bloomberg law weeknights at 6 and 10 on Bloomberg Radio. Mike McKee, you're not so lucky. You're sticking with us.

[Host/Moderator]

And we're going to bring our Tim o' Brien into the studio as well and also talk with him about all of this. But Mike, one of the things. Yeah, can we go? Can we go?

[Tim O'Brien]

We're going to go.

[Host/Moderator]

Mike, one of the things I think about is what if there is kind of the back and forth still going and Kevin Warsh, his nominee, his nomination isn't confirmed. What happens? Does Jay Powell stay in the job? Like, how does this well, Powell can

[Michael McKee]

stay as a governor until January of 2028 because that's when his governor as a governance, he would not be chairman of the Board of governors anymore after May 15. But the open Market Committee that makes the interest rate decisions elects its own chair every year. This year, the Open Market Committee elected him to be chair for the entire year. The last time they elected somebody in this situation, they said until a successor is confirmed. So he could, they don't have to do anything. He just stays as chair until and unless he either resigns or WASH comes in. And they decided to replace Powell.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

This is something we're going to talk about with Tim o', Brien, too, in just a minute. But, Mike, it seems like this could have been such an easy opportunity to fast track Kevin Warsh to becoming the next Fed Chair had Janine Pirro accepted the decision from this judge.

[Host/Moderator]

Right.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

And said, okay, he's the judge spoke, we're done. We're, we're, that's it. And we're not going to appeal this. But now Thom Tillis says as long as this process continues, he will not allow Kevin Warsh to move from committee to get confirmed.

[Michael McKee]

Well, and if this is going to continue through the appeals process, it's going to continue for months because that's the way the legal system works. So Warsh is not going to be confirmed anytime soon. I suppose it makes Stephen Myron happy because he stays in the seat. But you have to, you have to shake your head. You have to wonder and say, what were they thinking? But we're always saying that these days.

[Host/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

Let's bring in Tim o'. Brien. He's Bloomberg Opinion senior Executive editor. He's back here in our studio. Tim, we wanted you on because you have a column earlier that we spoke about about the president and plans and planning for this. And I think this is kind of a perfect opportunity to talk about what was the plan here?

[Host/Moderator]

Is there a plan?

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

Is there a plan here? And I think if we know what

[Tim O'Brien]

my answer is going to be.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I know what your answer is going to be. But this seems to, like we were saying, not necessarily prudent to get the next Fed chair in position for President Trump.

[Tim O'Brien]

Yeah, again, you know, planning matters. It matters when you plan a party. It matters when you plan a home renovation. It matters when you plan how to run a business. And it certainly matters when you plan how to run the federal government in its, you know, myriad facets and all the important things it does. So, of course, the orchestration of how you get a Fed nominee on track. How you get a Fed nominee approved and how you then get them seated really matters. And a lot of this, the, you know, the thing that's going on with Lisa Cook, it is theatrics, the issue being looked into. Other members of the Trump administration have wrestled with this, including the Treasury Secretary, who wasn't singled out for an investigation. And it would be just wise for them to let go of it and smooth the waters and get Warsh right in there, as Michael was saying. And the fact that they're not suggests a number of things, that they actually don't have a blueprint for how to go about this. They're not communicating well with each other. It's not clear to me how well the President's team communicated with Pirro before she got in front of a microphone to talk about this. How much of it's informed by piques rather than strategy, et cetera, et cetera. And that is a common feature of how the Trump administration rolls.

[Host/Moderator]

I want to ask you, though, Tim, like, part of us sometimes wonders, is this chaotic approach and, you know, President Trump's ability or, you know, goal of putting so much out there to kind of confuse us is a plan and is a strategy, you know, that flood the zone kind of idea. How much of that do. Should we think that this is part of what he wants to do? I think, and we're not talking about some.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

About oil prices or the Epstein files or Epstein files.

[Host/Moderator]

We talk about this all the time. There are things we're not talking about as a result.

[Tim O'Brien]

Well, so I think that this is an attempt to impose a rational structure on what's an inherently irrational process, which is that Trump is. Is a chaotic force of nature. This is who he's been forever. He hasn't really had to suffer the consequences of chaos in his own life or his own career. He's come very close a few times. He flirted with personal bankruptcy in the early 1990et. He's been through a number of marriages. He was in the White House, then out of the White House, now he's back in again. So, you know, this is present, but I think. I think it's important to discern strategy from chaos and to discern strategy from goals. You know, I think Trump clearly has goals. It's usually self aggrandizement or self preservation. Almost everything that he aspires to is in one of those silos. But that's not having a strategy. Strategies require patience. You have to think long term. You have to build a team around you that can help you execute your vision. That's strategy. All the rest of it is throwing mud up against a wall to see what sticks.

[Host/Moderator]

Who does have strategy is Jay Powell. And I keep thinking, Mike, about next week and the Fed meeting and we'll know where. I'm sure there will be posts on social media that we will get from whether it's the White House or the administration or what have you. But I just think about where Jay Powell is going to be on Wednesday, no matter what is kind of swirling around him. And when it comes to this specifically, we know he'll be asked.

[Michael McKee]

Yeah, the Fed has to make a decision. And Powell, I'm sure, when asked about it, will say something along the lines of, well, we agree with the court. And that's all I'm going to say because it's under appeal and I'm not going to talk about it anymore. And then we're going to ask him, are you going to stick around as governor when your term is?

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

And what will he say?

[Michael McKee]

And he will say, I haven't thought about that. I'm not giving that any thought right now. I'm just focused on the job in front of me, which will, in a way, get easier because of the President, because the war has pushed up oil prices and is threatening the economy, the Fed is now going to be sitting back and doing nothing. Even if Kevin Warsh were confirmed immediately, he wouldn't be cutting rates under these circumstances, would Stephen Myron? No, I don't think so.

[Host/Moderator]

Okay.

[Michael McKee]

I mean, we talked to Stephen the week that the war started, and he said, I just don't know enough right now. So I'm still on my position, but if you thought that inflation was going to rise significantly, then cutting rates would not be the thing you'd want to do. Myron's argument would be, well, if the economy is going to slow, we're going to get higher unemployment, then that is something you might cut rates for. But for right now, we're not seeing that.

[Host/Moderator]

Tim, where is the President's advisers? Like, I'm just thinking in a normal White House, they would be like midterms, affordability.

[Tim O'Brien]

Like, you know, just as Mike, as Mike was talking, I was thinking stagflation. Stagflation.

[Host/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Tim O'Brien]

We do all of the, you know, all the, all the bells are chiming towards that. You know, I think in Trump's first White House, he had advisors around him who talked back, whether it was, you know, General Mattis on the one hand or Rex Tillerson on the other. And I Don't think those sort of people exist in this administration. Because I think the lesson that the President took away from his first administration was people who give you independent advice get in your way and, and they contradict how you see the world. And he doesn't like either one of those things. So what you have now is essentially an apparatus around him that's enabling. But anyone who talks to people in the White House or reports on it describes it as essentially a tornado of, of different, different goals and poor communication.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

What did you, Tim, were your takeaways of the press conference we saw with the US Attorney, Jeanine Pirro? It was, it was combative, it was energetic. She was, she, I think she was very. I'm just confused about, like, who, who that was for. And.

[Tim O'Brien]

Well, you know what? It reminded me as sort of an

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

emissary of the President, it reminded me

[Tim O'Brien]

of the Attorney General's recent congressional testimony where it was similar. It was. I am not going to concede your point. I'm not really going to answer your question. I'm here because Donald Trump is the best president in the history of the world. And our goal is to achieve acts, and therefore we will do it. And I tend to think, I think today the War Secretary, Pete Hegseth, gave a press conference to debrief the American public on where we are. And it was very performative. And again, I think all of these people are cognizant of that. When they're on tv, there's an audience of one in the Oval Office that they have to think about before everyone else.

[Michael McKee]

There's something interesting about this too, because at the Defense Department, remember, they essentially forced all the regular mainstream press out, out. So people who are at Hegsen Lindell

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

TV asking a question earlier today, all

[Michael McKee]

basically affiliated with right wing media outlets. But at the Justice Department today, there was a lot of antagonism that she was responding to. She got asked, how does this fit in with all of the other cases that you have failed to get grand juries to indict?

[Host/Moderator]

Right.

[Michael McKee]

And that made her very angry at the end.

[Host/Moderator]

You know, one of the things I think about too is just, I just said, I just blanked, actually.

[Co-Host/Interviewer]

Well, I wanted, I wanted to ask about Fed independence. And I'm wondering if a decision like this from, from a judge makes you think, okay, the Fed maybe makes investors think Fed independence is, is strong.

[Michael McKee]

It's kind of a mixed picture. Yes. The, the markets feel basically that Fed independence is strong. Now, one of the issues is how strong is their credibility because of what they do, the problem they had with the big inflation scare and things like that. And everybody doesn't know exactly how this plays out with the President and the Fed. But for right now, the markets believe in the Fed and I don't think it's going to take a lot to change that. And the more this goes on, the more the President turns other members of the Fed against him and people stick up for the institution. And whether they love Jay Powell or hate Jay Powell, the Fed itself is more important.

[Host/Moderator]

That's what I actually wanted to go to. So thank you for like triggering my brain the synopsis. But I mean, I think about Tim too, that we talk about a Trump put right, that the President does watch the markets. And really this week I think we've seen things where he has come out to almost massage the energy trade. So should we assume whether it's the Fed, you know, nervousness in the markets, that he will come back to that?

[Tim O'Brien]

Well, I think, you know, he can't just massage the energy trade forever. You know, oil, there is a point, prices have been on a yo yo and at some point, because of the nature of the industry, everything will shut down for a period of time and it'll take a while to revive it and there will be economic consequences for that. And I think he's hoping that within these little moments of breathing room, maybe the Iranians come to the table or something else. I don't know exactly what he's thinking, but.

[Host/Moderator]

But nobody does. Ever.

[Tim O'Brien]

Nobody does. But the interesting thing here now if you compare it to like Liberation Day and tariffs, is the whole dance around was he going to impose tariffs or not? Played out over several months because he had the time to do that. He does not have the time in this situation to let this play out that long at all. And he is now dealing with fanatics in Iran who are going to dig in and wage a long war, it appears, and he can be fanatical himself. And if both sides on this end up just digging in, we're going to have a full blown energy crisis.

[Host/Moderator]

Which is why we also have market watchers saying, you know, we've got to know kind of the duration, the impact, and that will determine so much going forward. If you follow markets, you know the value of long term thinking. You plan, you diversify, you prepare for volatility. But even the best strategies can't prevent every bad day. For more than 75 years, Cincinnati Insurance has helped individuals and businesses navigate tough moments with expertise, personal attention and independent agents who focus on relationships not transactions. The Cincinnati insurance companies. Let them make your bad day better. Find an agent@cin fin.com these days it

[Commercial Narrator]

seems like AI agents are just about everywhere you turn, every field and every function. But without identity, you can't trust they'll serve your business instead of jeopardizing it. Fortunately, Okta helps you get identity right by securing your AI agents identities, giving you a single layer of control, a single standard of trust. So whether an AI agent supports a single user or your entire enterprise, with Okta you'll turn risk into opportunity. Secure every agent you're any agent. Okta secures AI. This podcast is brought to you by Wise the smarter way to manage your money internationally if you're getting a headache from juggling different currencies and different bank accounts in different countries, there's a better way to receive money in the currency you need without the slow transfer times or hidden fees. Meet Wise, the savvy way to handle your money internationally. Hold balances in up to 40 currencies with the mid market exchange rate on every conversion. Whether you're receiving payments from tenants abroad, earning as a digital nomad, or converting dividends from your the Wise Multi Currency account is for you. Be Smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com Terms and Conditions apply.