Bloomberg Money: Credit Card Indicators and Golf's Changing Fanbase

Summary

Bloomberg Surveillance – Bloomberg Money: “Credit Card Indicators and Golf's Changing Fanbase”

Date: August 7, 2026
Hosts: Tom Keene, Scarlet Fu, David Gurro
Notable Guests: Meredith Whitney (CEO, Meredith Whitney Advisory Group), Randall Williams (Bloomberg Senior Sports Reporter), Brian Roloff (CEO, PGA Tour), David Kelly, Mike McKee, Sujah

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Episode Overview

This episode explores two distinct but timely themes: the evolving landscape of consumer credit and banking as seen through credit card trends, and the transformation of professional golf's fanbase and commercial strategy post-LIV Golf. The hosts and guests discuss macroeconomic signals from credit card use, the rise of "buy now, pay later," retail investors’ adoption of AI, and how generational shifts and competition are reshaping both the finance sector and golf as business and sport.

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Key Segments & Discussion Highlights

1. Current Job Market, Inflation, and Economic Sentiment

(02:13 – 06:16)

• Unemployment Figures & Job Market Nuances:
  • Mike McKee points out jobs lost—primarily in local education—likely due to seasonal factors.
  • “We did lose 23,000 jobs, but 50,000 of those were local education teachers ... that’ll go away in the next month.” (03:11, Mike McKee)
• AI's Influence on Jobs:
  • Early signs show AI is creating new jobs, particularly in construction (adjacent to building AI data centers) and semiconductors.
• Presidential Economic Messaging:
  • The panel notes a lack of political focus on affordability and cost of living, despite it being top-of-mind for the electorate:
    • “Right now, it seems like nobody’s talking about [standard of living and paycheck to paycheck].” (05:20, David Gurro)
    • David Kelly adds recent election results underscore cost-of-living concerns.

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2. Rise of Retail Trading and AI

(06:16 – 08:48)

• DIY Hedge Funds:
  • Sujah explains AI is empowering retail investors to create sophisticated trading models beyond simple “what stock to buy” questions.
  • “They’re asking [AI tools] to help build code, very sophisticated models to help them identify strategies and even generate trading calls.” (06:34, Sujah)
• Market Concentration Risks:
  • “If they’re using the same AI models and generating similar calls, that could really amplify the market swings.” (07:28, Sujah)
• Stop-Loss Automation:
  • Automated triggers now execute around the clock, even while traders sleep.

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3. Credit Cards as Economic Indicators & the New Consumer Credit Landscape

Main Segment with Meredith Whitney: (10:06 – 18:52 & 22:27 – 31:33)

• Credit and Consumer Spending Trends:

  • Credit card balances now grow at the pace of inflation, reflecting consumer adaptation to higher prices, not increased leverage.
  • “People are spending and paying back monthly. The balances...grow, but they’re growing at the pace of inflation...credit card spending had already peaked in early April. Credit card spending decelerate[d]...” (11:53+/24:14, Meredith Whitney)

• Shift from Revolving Credit:

  • Post-GFC, banks retreated from subprime lending, pushing many consumers into shadow banking and payday products—often with extremely high effective interest rates.
  • “People aren’t living paycheck to paycheck, but payday to payday...advanced wage pay...annualized [rates] over 160%.” (13:23+/25:44, Meredith Whitney)

• The “Buy Now, Pay Later” Shift:

  • Merchants now bear financing costs, and the 2010 Credit Card Act means young consumers are less likely to have credit histories.
  • “Buy now, pay later replaced the credit card...Gen Z and younger millennials aren’t used to revolving credit.” (15:13+/27:34, Meredith Whitney)

• Barriers to Building Credit for the Young:

  • Difficulty in credit history impacts future loan approval.
  • “It’s going to be harder for them to get credit.” (16:05+/28:26, Meredith Whitney)

• Bank Stocks & Retirement Strategy:

  • Banks no longer pay high dividends; share buybacks have dominated, but alternatives yield better retirement returns.
  • “JP Morgan is an absolute outlier...they bought back the most shares.” (16:33+/28:54, Meredith Whitney)

• Thematic and Frontier Investing:

  • Whitney invests thematically, such as in manufactured housing and rare earth commodity markets in emerging countries.
  • “I always take long term thematic approaches to my investing ... manufactured homes are really nice...good plays and they’re emerging will be bigger plays.” (17:53+/30:15, Meredith Whitney)

Notable Quotes:

• “I see people aren’t living paycheck to paycheck, but payday to payday.” – Meredith Whitney (13:23+/25:44)
• “2/3 of people working are living paycheck to paycheck and a quarter...are struggling to pay their bills.” – Meredith Whitney (14:17+/26:39)

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4. Golf’s New Era: Competition, Commercialization, and Younger Fans

Sports Business Focus: (34:25 – 47:28)

• Golf as Soap Opera & Commercial Enterprise:

  • Randall Williams summarizes pro golf’s drama with LIV Golf (Saudi-backed competitor), PGA Tour’s new for-profit “Enterprises” arm, and influx of investment from major sports moguls.
  • “The PGA Tour has been slowly trying to...fill in some of the holes that maybe LIV Golf exposed.” (34:59, Randall Williams)

• Tradition vs. Innovation:

  • Brian Roloff (newly-appointed CEO, PGA Tour; ex-NFL) discusses reaching new, younger fans:
    • “Participation in golf...has grown 39% since COVID. Half of that growth is under the age of 35... but the average tour telecast viewer is 66.” (37:16, Brian Roloff)
    • “If you’re not going forwards, you’re going backwards, and innovation matters.” (37:16, Brian Roloff)
  • LIV Golf’s disruption forced the PGA to modernize its commercial model (PGA Tour Enterprises, player equity, new competition format).

• Media Rights and Fan Experience:

  • Upcoming battles for TV and streaming rights. The Tour seeks storytelling akin to the NFL’s Red Zone Channel, aiming for wider reach without alienating traditional fans.
  • “The modern media model...if you get your media model right, you can build the sport.” (39:10, Brian Roloff)
  • “The strength of that [commercial] business funds innovation. It funds player purchases...the only professional tour of scale that I can think of where players can actually earn equity.” (41:19, Brian Roloff)
  • On “slow play” and TV pacing:
    • “It’s our job and our broadcast partners’ to produce it better....context matters here.” (42:46, Brian Roloff)

• Structural Changes – Meritocracy and Access:

  • New “Championship Series” (top 120), Challenger Series, and promotion-relegation system enhance competitive merit and transparency.
  • “If [a young golfer] is that good, we’ve now created a system where he will work his way in...no more sponsor exemptions.” (46:00, Brian Roloff)

• Changing Demographics & Cost of Fandom:

  • The challenge of soaring sports streaming bills; sticking point for growing, not alienating, the fanbase.
  • “While I’m a big believer...the value in sports and media is reach...the difference is reach is much more complicated because of where the media world is.” (45:29, Brian Roloff)

Memorable Moments:

• On the product’s evolution post-LIV:
  • “Huge innovation usually doesn’t happen without a crisis.” (38:19, Brian Roloff)
• On media innovation:
  • “We produce the Red Zone Channel [in the NFL] ... I think we can produce it better and actually tell a better story [in golf].” (43:10, Brian Roloff)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp(s) | |-----------------------------------------------|--------------------| | Job Market, Political Messaging, AI & Jobs | 02:13 – 06:16 | | Retail Trading & AI | 06:16 – 08:48 | | Meredith Whitney on Credit/Personal Finance | 10:06 – 18:52,<br>22:27 – 31:33 | | Golf’s Changing Landscape: LIV & PGA Tour | 34:25 – 47:28 |

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Notable Quotes Gallery

• “If you get your media model right, you can build the sport.”
  – Brian Roloff (39:10)
• “People aren’t living paycheck to paycheck, but payday to payday.”
  – Meredith Whitney (13:23+/25:44)
• “Participation in golf...has grown 39% since COVID. Half of that growth is under 35.”
  – Brian Roloff (37:16)

---

Summary & Takeaways

• Personal Finance:

  • Consumers are adapting to high prices, often with little room for error. Credit cards now mirror inflation, and “payday to payday” describes many Americans’ financial reality.
  • “Buy now, pay later” is supplanting credit cards for the younger demographic, carrying long-term credit and lending consequences.
  • Long-term thematic investing is preferred over traditional banking/income strategies for future retirees.

• Retail Investment & AI:

  • AI is democratizing hedge-fund-style strategies among retail investors, but the copycat risk could heighten market volatility.

• Golf Business:

  • Golf is navigating a tricky balance between tradition and much-needed innovation, both structurally and in media strategy.
  • Commercialization and new competitive formats are designed to engage a younger, more diverse fanbase and support player interests more directly, especially after the industry-wide shock caused by LIV Golf.

Overall, the episode offers a nuanced look at how economic adaptation and competitive disruption are reshaping both Americans’ financial well-being and their experience of sports.

Transcript

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[Scarlet Fu]

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[Tom Keene]

This is the Bloomberg Money Podcast. I'm Tom Keene with Scarlet Fu.

[David Gurro]

Join us each week for a smart

[Tom Keene]

look at the forces shaping your financial life. On personal finance, on retirement and wealth management, we will explore how people are earning, investing and building wealth. We are live Fridays at noon Eastern on Bloomberg Television. Subscribe to the podcast wherever you listen and as always on the Bloomberg Terminal and the Bloomberg Business app.

[David Gurro]

Got a great set of Bloomberg people to be with us. David Gurro just won't go away.

[Scarlet Fu]

I mean we pay him to come

[David Gurro]

this weekend on Friday ramping up to the show. Do you have a key guest this week?

[David Kelly]

Yes, maybe one from Michigan. I'm going to tease that.

[David Gurro]

Okay here in a week of a moment she's a song with us. Thank you so much for joining and nice to have you here. We've got lots to talk about but the star of the show right now. How did you affect Mr. Hassett here? You were talking about socialism in the new Democratic Party.

[Mike McKee]

Talk about some inconsistencies maybe in the Republicans language. They have talked about the communist socialist Democrats and asked him what a socialist was and he said the government owns the means of production and I pointed out that the Trump administration has been stakes in a lot of American companies.

[David Gurro]

John Edwards years ago was old school. And what I saw today was a two America's job economy. Have you ever seen it, Mike McKee, this split apart as we all struggle to retirement?

[Mike McKee]

I don't think it was too split apart this time. It was a lot of stuff under the hood that you have to kind of thread together to make a story out of it. Now, we did lose 23,000 jobs, but 50,000 of those were local education teachers and education workers. And a lot of that may be just a seasonal difference of when people were taken off payrolls because they usually come off May and June. And so that'll go away in the next month. And then the question is, where's the rest of the job?

[David Gurro]

I'm not used to this.

[Mike McKee]

We lost 19,000 retail jobs, but the rest of it was all just kind of lower hiring. Social services and education and health has been the big job creator. And we've been usually getting 30, 40, 50,000amonth in that category. Only got 22,000. So hiring slowed down, but we had a 4.1% unemployment rate because a lot of people left the labor force. Labor force was a lot smaller again second month. And what's that telling you is that the president's deportation plans are working. The baby boomers, except for Tom, are still retiring.

[Scarlet Fu]

And as he looks behind his shoulder

[David Gurro]

last time on the show for him, save the show right now. Young one.

[Scarlet Fu]

The jobs report took inflation off the front page, at least for this morning. But when it comes to inflation, still not oil prices, David. And consumers have the Iran war fatigue. Every headline on military strikes or talks causes huge swings in oil prices and gas prices. Is really difficult to know where things stand. I think even the president has Iran war fatigue.

[David Kelly]

I think that's true. I mean, he's been talking about the prospects of a deal, but it's one that's been negotiated between the Iranians, the Omanis, and a very circumscribed one that doesn't involve certainly the nuclear program or anything like that. Interesting to see the way in which the president, if not talking about the Iran war, isn't pivoting to talking about the economy, although we do know from recent reporting from Bloomberg and other outlets he's calling up Kevin Warsh, calling up the Fed chair more frequently now to talk about the economy. Spitball his ideas of where things are here about Mr. Warsh's impressions of the data. So clearly cognizant of where things are but that's not manifest in the way that he's talking about on the campaign.

[David Gurro]

Is it odd, David, that we're ignorant, ignoring affordability, standard of living, paycheck to paycheck? Right now, it seems like nobody's talking about it.

[David Kelly]

I wouldn't paint that with a broad brush, but I'd go back to the White House. And it is something that I think President Trump's advisers desperately wanted to talk about more the advances that he's made. And you saw him go to Las Vegas this week to talk once again about no taxes on tips, which was such a rallying cry during the campaign. But it is not something that he is either fond of talking about or able to talk about or able to stay focused on when he's on the campaign trail. So I think that it is laid bare for so many people. You mentioned oil prices, gas price is incredibly expensive. I think there's an awareness of the fact that that is the case here across this country. But it is certainly to your point, certainly not in the Republican zeitgeist, the President zeitgeist. You look at the election that we had in Michigan this week, it really was an animating issue. And even when you see kind of invective put on, the candidate who won on Abdullah said he pivots very quickly to talk about affordability in health care and other matters.

[Scarlet Fu]

So it's because of this that investors kind of take matters into their own hands. And Sujah, you've written a story about how artificial intelligence is helping retail investors become DIY hedge fund managers. They're using this technology to build programs to generate huge returns in the stock market. Because this is what they see as their path forward.

[Sujah]

Exactly. If you think about kind of the progression of retail trading, this is almost like zero commission 2.0. So five, 10 years ago, when Robinhood kind of spearheaded this zero commission period, and then during the pandemic, we said we saw like, GameStop and meme stuff, stock trading. And now it's almost the next chapter for retail trading, especially with artificial intelligence. These folks that we talk to, they don't just ask, like, what stocks to buy, they're asking them to help build code, build a model, very sophisticated model to help them identify strategies and even generate trading calls.

[Scarlet Fu]

Okay, so on the one hand, this empowers individual investors, but on the other hand, everyone is using these AI models which kind of look through the same data and they use similar models and I would imagine spit out similar outcomes. Doesn't this create, you know, concentration risk where people Pile into the same positions for sure.

[Sujah]

If you're, if they're using the same AI models and generating similar calls, that could really amplify the market swings.

[David Gurro]

Those are calls. Does I tell you when to get out?

[Sujah]

It does too. Some people have set up, for instance, 10% stop losses so that, you know,

[David Gurro]

we used to do that. We used to didn't need AI.

[Sujah]

But if you're trading at a high frequency during the day, when you're at your day job or when you're having lunch with friends or even when you're sleeping, these eyes can actually execute or automate your strategies for you.

[Scarlet Fu]

I want to bring back to jobs for a Moment here, Mike McKee, did we see any evidence of AI, the kind of stuff that I was talking about taking away jobs so far, or is it still too early to look for that?

[Mike McKee]

Too early to look for that. But we did see evidence that AI is adding jobs because there were 22,000 construction jobs added and about 19,000 of those were in areas adjacent to building AI data centers, non, non residential construction, specialty contractors and things like that. And then you had another 4 to 6,000 jobs in computer and semiconductor manufacturing. So those were some of the positive areas in this jobs report and they're definitely linked to AI. But too early to say. Well, I didn't look at the actually jobs for stockbrokers, but too early to say. That is having a big effect on them.

[David Gurro]

Red Sox just keep it going this weekend every day.

[Mike McKee]

I say they can't keep this up

[David Gurro]

and they get this up, but they do.

[Mike McKee]

They do. It reminds me of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid when they're looking back at the Pinkerton detectives saying, who are these guys?

[David Gurro]

We do. It's amazing to see. It's going to be a joy, joy, joy of the summer. Bloomberg on a Bloomberg Money on a Friday. I'll tell you, it's hot out there. Is it 90 today? It feels like yesterday was brutal.

[Scarlet Fu]

I know, It's. I mean this is. These are the dog days of August.

[David Gurro]

It's truly the dog days of August. And what we're going to try to do is have some good conversation here about personal finance, about retirement and about, you know, everything out there in wealth management. Here's what you need to know. Meredith Whitney knows it's about baseball. In baseball you go up to the plate and two thirds of the time you go back to the dugout. She has enjoyed over the years a few times of putting the ball in play definitive in finance, in banking still, Meredith Whitney's advisory Group today. What was it like the claim you had, I'm going to call it 15 or 20 years ago. How did you handle just the day to day boom of Meredith Whitney municipal finance and banking? How do you handle it day to day?

[Meredith Whitney]

It was really awkward because you know, my world had been really small covering banks and financials and I loved it. So people within the industry knew who I was and I had great relationships and then all of a sudden there was so much more attention focused on me and it's very, it's, it's, it's uncomfortable. I was, wasn't used to it. I can't imagine how you guys get used to it. You know it was, it was perfectly

[David Gurro]

decide what you and Sally Kraw Chuck were path breaking on which is actually doing securities analysis. And then it got so much bigger than that. Let's show one of the huge Meredith Whitney successes. You got to play, you got to put the ball in play and then you have to have the courage to hold on. I was a, in a meeting with Meredith ages ago. I could barely shave at the time and you know, there we were and she says this company, Visa, it'll work out. When did you sell Visa? When did you get out? How did you not sell Visa?

[Meredith Whitney]

I mean it's just been, you know, back then it was just, you know, cash to credit. There was this huge tailwind to it and also it was like, I call it a mutualization from the, from the banks. So it was a, it was a straight arrow. It was one of the easier ones and I call it the OG of fintech because it was really one of the first fintechs. Now after the financial crisis, the fintechs became a real thing and disint intermediate. A lot of the things that banks weren't willing to do because they had PTSD from the financial crisis.

[Scarlet Fu]

You say Visa, I think about credit cards and I know Meredith, you track consumer credit as a way to gauge the health of consumer spending and therefore the broader economy. Your view is that it's become increasingly more valuable because of the way that people use credit cards, their visas now as opposed to five or 10 years ago. What does that look like?

[Meredith Whitney]

Well, what's happened is post financial crisis the banks pulled back dramatically from near prime and subprime. So they had all sorts of exposure. Wells was a big subprime lender and so all of that has moved into the shadow banking system. Even companies like that were, were famously subprime, like Capital One has pulled way back and is focused on prime. So Instead of revolving balances, people are spending and paying back monthly. Now the balances don't, don't reflect that they grow, but they're growing at the pace of inflation. And so what I look at as being a very good guide for where inflation is and when gas was prices peaked in, in, in mid, early early May. Credit card spending had already peaked in early April. So, and you've seen credit card spending decelerate from that time. And so these are just people spending, absorbing the higher, higher prices and then just spending accordingly. So I think, I think the Fed should look at their own data. This is data that comes out weekly. So you can see, see credit card balances and it's really helpful. So I think credit, I think inflation is in a rearview mirror.

[Scarlet Fu]

So it's like a charge card as opposed to a credit card that you pay the balance off of.

[Meredith Whitney]

That's exactly right. The charge plate. Right yourself.

[Scarlet Fu]

But that's also why all these big banks are chasing the higher income consumer. Everyone's coming out with their own premium credit card because the fees are so lucrative. I mean there's an underserved population here of people who actually need credit cards but can't actually get it.

[Meredith Whitney]

Can't get it. And so what they're doing is they're going to outside of the banking system, which means it's incredibly expensive. I say that people aren't living paycheck to paycheck, but payday to payday. So the fastest growing industry within fintech and financial services is advanced wage pay. So if you've worked two days, you can access for a fee your, your, your wages for those two days. And what happens is people are using this service multiple times times. Now it was Dave and Chime that reported yesterday that was their fastest growing product. And so While on a two week basis it looks like a six and a half percent interest rate, but annualized that's over 160%. People aren't using this product one time, they're using it multiple.

[David Gurro]

It harkens back to our grandparents. It feels like it's almost, you know, depression kind of. It's not about fancy personal finance and retirement. It's about a tough time out there. We're trying to get to the next paycheck.

[Meredith Whitney]

That's exactly right. So there was a study done in February that 2/3 of people working are, are living paycheck to paycheck and a quarter of, of of labor force participants are struggling to pay their bills. And so what they're doing is they're going to pawn shops. They're doing payday earned wage access by borrowing. And there are, they're tapping into for the subprime and near prime. They can't even get home equity loans. So this is a feast.

[David Gurro]

Well, this is the courage yet over decades, you know, talking about the two Americas out there. Help me out. Is a stereotype of James diamond of a small bank on Park Avenue and buy now and pay later. I mean to me it's almost a revolution where the kids aren't using the charge cards like they used to in our personal finance. Does a firm in those kind of companies, do they win?

[Meredith Whitney]

I think the buy now, pay later replace the credit card. And what I never saw coming was the fact that the merchants are paying the fees right there. You know, they're paying a firm, they're paying. And so what happened in 2010? And not to get to technical, but

[David Gurro]

the card Friday, don't get technical.

[Meredith Whitney]

When we were in college we got solicited by every credit card out there. So when we graduated we, we had credit card debt. In 2010 that changed. So unless you got a co signed by your parent, if you were under 21, you couldn't get a credit card. So this generation of Gen Z and younger millennials aren't used to revolving credit. So they're, they're actually buy now, pay later is more appealing to them even though sometimes it's the same thing.

[Scarlet Fu]

How do they set up a credit history then? If they eventually when they want to start becoming consumers in this economy and be able to apply for loans, they don't have a credit history though.

[Meredith Whitney]

That's exactly, that's exactly right. Because you're not. Even if they're, even if it's the high end, high earners and they're taking American Express, they're paying down their balance. So you're exactly right. It's going to be harder for them to get a credit.

[David Gurro]

I think of you and the clan. I'm going to pick on Mike Mayo. We all love to pick on Mike Mayo. Great analyst out there. You people said they get through the great financial crisis and that we should own the banks as part of our retirement. Give us an update now and where you think in the next 10 years, those successful investments, where do they go?

[Meredith Whitney]

Well, it used to be the case that the banks paid rich dividends. That hasn't been the case. So banks have been buying back shares at really high valuations, which is not accretive for the, for the banks. And they've been reticent to raise Dividends because they don't know how long this, you know, this great earnings bonanza that the banks are in is going to last. So I think they're better vehicles to buy. Outside of the banks that have rich, rich dividend yields in retirement, you can have both rich equities that have rich dividend yields. Bonds are less certain. The 6040 portfolio hasn't been, you know, a great performer the last year. But I think banks, you know, Jamie, sorry, JP Morgan is an absolute, absolute outlier. I mean they've had since 2010, they've just been a juggernaut and that's been a great stock and. But they bought back the most amount of shares of any of the banks.

[Scarlet Fu]

20 years ago banks were what tech was in terms of concentration in the market. They were the giants and then now it's all tech firms and banks are kind of like, you know, middle of the road.

[David Gurro]

Can you see Meredith on the golf course? It'd be like a terror.

[Scarlet Fu]

You've made some big calls on banks on munis in your career on Wall Street. What's your personal approach to investing these days?

[Meredith Whitney]

I've always been thematic with my, I didn't own the banks back then, thank goodness because I was covering them and I just felt there was always a conflict of interest. But I always take long term thematic approaches to my investing. So I'll give you a couple of examples. The, you know, the winners and the losers with the housing bill, the affordable housing 21st century road to housing. I bought sky, which is Champion Homes, which is a manufactured homebuilder. And the idea is they repealed a chassis law. Things would change, that production would increase dramatically and manufactured homes are really nice. They're not the manufactured homes of yesteryear. So by that I've done, I do front some, some frontier investing in terms of with

[Scarlet Fu]

certain markets, geographical markets, I

[Meredith Whitney]

mean well a lot of the stons which have very rich rare earth minerals. So that a lot of that is going so is private to public of companies. I know that's sort of esoteric Tarek, but those have been good plays and they're emerging will be bigger plays.

[Scarlet Fu]

All right, so a commodity play there and then from Meredith Whitney, thank you so much for joining us by the way. Really appreciate it. Meredith Whitney, CEO of Meredith Whitney Advisory Group. Coming up, a conversation with David Kelly with a focus on personal finance, retirement and wealth management.

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[David Gurro]

Bloomberg on a well, Bloomberg Money on a Friday and I'll tell you, it's hot out there. Is it 90 today? It feels like yesterday was brutal.

[Scarlet Fu]

I know it's I mean this is. These are the dog days of August.

[David Gurro]

It's truly the dog days of August. And what we're going to try to do is have some good conversation here about personal finance, about retirement and about, you know, everything out there in wealth management. Here's what you need to know. Meredith Whitney knows it's about baseball. In baseball you go up to the plate and two thirds of the time you go back to the dugout. She has enjoyed over the years a few times of putting the ball in play definitive in finance, in banking still Meredith Whitney's advisory group today what was it like the claim you had, I'm going to call it 15 or 20 years ago. How did you handle just the day to day boom of Meredith Whitney municipal finance and Banking, how do you handle it day to day?

[Meredith Whitney]

It was really awkward because my world had been really small covering banks and financials, and I loved it. So people within the industry knew who I was and I had great relationships. Relationships. And then all of a sudden there was so much more attention focused on me. And it's very, it's, it's uncomfortable. I was, I wasn't used to it. I can't imagine how you guys get used to it. You know, it was, it was perfectly

[David Gurro]

decide what you and Sally Krawchuk were path breaking on, which is actually doing securities analysis. And then it got so much bigger than that. Let's show one of the huge Meredith Whitney successes. You got to play. You got to put the ball in play, and then you have to have the courage to hold on. I was in a meeting with Meredith ages ago. I could barely shave at the time. And, you know, there we were. And she says, this company, Visa, it'll work out. When did you sell Visa? When did you get out? How did you not sell Visa?

[Meredith Whitney]

I mean, it's just been, you know, back then it was just, you know, cash to credit. There was this huge tailwind to it. And also it was like, I call it a demutualization from the, from the bank. So it was a, it was a straight arrow. It was one of the easier ones. And I call it the OG of fintech because it was really one of the first fintech. So after the financial crisis, the fintechs became a real thing and Dissertation Intermediate. A lot of the things the banks weren't willing to do because they had PTSD from the financial crisis.

[David Gurro]

Right.

[Scarlet Fu]

You say Visa. I think about credit cards. And I know, Meredith, you track consumer credit as a way to gauge the health of consumer spending and therefore the broader economy. Your view is that it's become increasingly more valuable because of the way that people use credit cards, their Visas now, as opposed to five or 10 years ago. What does that look like?

[Meredith Whitney]

Well, what's happened is post financial crisis, the banks pulled back dramatically from near prime and subprime. So they had all sorts of exposure. Wells was a big subprime lender. And so all of that has moved into the shadow banking system. Even companies like that were famously subprime, like Capital One has pulled way back and is focused on prime. So instead of revolving balances, people are spending and paying back monthly. Now, the balances don't, don't reflect that they grow, but they're growing at the pace of inflation. Inflation. And so what I look AT is being a very good guide for where inflation is. And when gas prices peaked in, in, in mid, early early May, credit card spending had already peaked in early April. So, and you've seen credit card spending decelerate from that time. And so these are just people spending, absorbing the higher, higher prices and then just spending accordingly. So I think, I think the Fed should look at their own data. This is data that comes out weekly so you can see credit card balances and it's really helpful. So I think credit, I think inflation is in a rearview mirror.

[Scarlet Fu]

So it's like a charge card as opposed to a credit card that you pay the balance off of.

[Meredith Whitney]

That's exactly right. Okay, the charge plate. Right yourself.

[Scarlet Fu]

But that's also why all these big banks are chasing the higher income consumer. Everyone's coming out with their own premium credit card because the fees are so lucrative. I mean there's an underserved population here of people who actually need credit cards but can't actually get it.

[Meredith Whitney]

Can't get it. And so what they're doing is they're going outside of the banking system, which means it's incredibly expensive. I see that people aren't living paycheck to paycheck, but payday to payday. So the fastest growing industry within fintech and financial services is advanced wage pay. So if you work two days you can access for a fee your, your, your wages for those two days. And what happens is people are using this service multiple times. Now it was Dave and Chime that reported yesterday that was their fastest growing product. And so while on a two week basis it looks like a six and a half percent interest rate but annualized that's over 160%. People aren't using this product one time, they're using it multiple harkens back to our grandparents.

[David Gurro]

It feels like it's almost, you know, depression kind of. It's not about fancy personal finance and retirement. It's about a tough time out there. We're trying to get to the next paycheck.

[Meredith Whitney]

That's exactly right. So there was a study done in February that 2/3 of people working are, are living paycheck to paycheck and a quarter of, of of labor force participants are struggling to pay their bills. And so what they're doing is they're going to pawn shops, they're doing payday earned wage access, borrowing and there or they're tapping into for the subprime and near prime, they can't even get home equity loans. So this is a feast.

[David Gurro]

Well this is the Courage. Yet over decades, you know, talking about the two Americas out there. Help me out. Is a stereotype of James diamond of a small bank on Park Avenue and buy now and pay later. I mean, to me it's almost a revolution where the kids aren't using the charge cards like they used to in our personal finance. Does a firm in those kind of companies, do they win?

[Meredith Whitney]

I think the buy now, pay later replace the credit card. And what I never saw coming was the fact that the merchants are paying the fees right there. You know, they're paying a firm, they're paying. And so what happened in 2010? And not to get too technical, but

[David Gurro]

the Friday don't get technical.

[Meredith Whitney]

When we were in college, we got solicited by every credit card out there. When we graduated, we had credit card debt. In 2010, that changed. So unless you got a co sign by your parent, if you were under 21, you couldn't get a credit card. So this generation of Gen Z and younger millennials aren't used to revolving credits. So they're, they're actually buy now, pay later is more appealing to them, even though sometimes it's the same thing.

[Scarlet Fu]

How do they set up a credit history then? If they eventually, when they want to start becoming consumers in this economy and be able to apply for loans, they don't have a credit history.

[Meredith Whitney]

That's exactly, that's exactly right. Because you're not, even if they're, even if it's the high end, high earners and they're taking American Express, they're paying down their balance. So you're exactly right. It's going to be harder for them to get a credit.

[David Gurro]

I think of you and the Klan. I'm going to pick on Mike Mayo. We all love to pick on Mike Mayo. Great analyst out there. You people said they get through the great financial crisis and that we should own the banks as part of our retirement. Give us an update now and where you think in the next 10 years, those successful investments, where do they go?

[Meredith Whitney]

Well, it used to be the case that the banks paid rich dividends. That hasn't been the case. So banks have been buying back shares at really high valuations, which is not accretive for the, for the banks. And they've been reticent to raise dividends because they don't know how long this, you know, this great earnings bonanza that the banks are in is going to last. So I think they're better vehicles to buy outside of the banks that have rich, rich dividend yields in retirement. You can have both rich equities that I rich dividend yields. Bonds are less certain. The 6040 portfolio hasn't been a great performer the last year. But I think banks, you know Jamie, sorry JP Morgan is an absolute outlier. I mean they've had since 2010, they've just been a juggernaut and that's been a great stock and but they bought back the most amount of shares of any of the banks.

[Scarlet Fu]

20 years ago banks were what tech was in terms of concentration in the market. I mean they were the giants and then now it's all tech firms and banks are kind of like, you know, middle of the road.

[David Gurro]

Do you see Meredith in the golf course? It'd be like a terror.

[Scarlet Fu]

You've made some big calls on banks, on munis in your career on Wall Street. What's your personal approach to investing these days?

[Meredith Whitney]

I've always been thematic with my approach. I didn't own the banks back then, thank goodness because I was covering them and I just felt there was always a conflict of interest. But I always take long term thematic approaches to my investing. So I'll give you a couple of examples. You know, the winners and the losers with the housing bill, the affordable housing 21st century road to housing. I bought sky, which is Champion Homes, which is a manufactured homebuilder and and the idea is they repealed a chassis law. Things would change, that production would increase dramatically and manufactured homes are really nice. They're not the manufactured homes of yesteryear. So by that I've done I do front some some frontier investing in terms of with

[Scarlet Fu]

so markets, geographical markets I

[Meredith Whitney]

mean well a lot of the stons which have very rich rare earth minerals so that a lot of that is going so ease private to public companies. I know that's sort of esoteric Tarek, but those have been good plays and they're emerging will be bigger plays.

[Scarlet Fu]

All right, so a commodity play there and then from Meredith Whitney. Thank you so much for joining us by the way. Really appreciate it. Meredith Whitney, CEO of Meredith Whitney Advisory Group. Coming up, a conversation with David Kelly with a focus on personal finance, retirement and wealth management. This is Bloomberg Money.

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[Scarlet Fu]

Bloomberg Money is about making and investing your money, but it's also about spending it. And a lot of people like spending it on golf, both watching and playing it. Professional golf only caught the attention of golfers for decades, but over the last five years it's become kind of a soap opera. Bloomberg senior Business of sports reporter Randall Williams joins us now. And Randall, I go to the idea that for people in the U.S. professional golf was equal to the PGA Tour. But then you had LIV Golf, which was funded by the Saudi Arabians, popping up as a competitor. And then at some point the two decided on a merger. But then I don't think anything happened. What's the latest or what has happened?

[Randall Williams]

Well, it's been on an indefinite pause, but the PGA Tour has evolved since then. Of course LIV Golf entered it caused a lot of chaos. But then you had the Strategic Sports Group that's backed by Fenway Sports Group is backed by Steve Cohen, who's The Mets owner. And then you have Arthur Blank, who's the Falcons owner. Them and a lot more people put up to $3 billion into the PGA Tour, which created a for profit arm called the PGA Tour Enterprises. Since then, the PGA Tour has been slowly trying to, I'd say recalibrate itself to get on the right track, to evolve, to fill in some of the holes that maybe live golf exposed what

[Scarlet Fu]

we're some of the holes that live golf exposed because golf had a bit of a renaissance during the pandemic up until that point. A lot of people criticize it for being hard, elitist, expensive. But then golf like found itself during the pandemic.

[Randall Williams]

Let's say that golf is very a traditional sport. And so with tradition there's always tradition versus innovation. And so of course you had some people complaining about player pay, you had people complaining about the tournament schedule. And so now we have a bunch of innovations that are happening in regards to the the system of golfer is going to be a championship series and a challenger series and that's how the changes have come.

[David Gurro]

What do you see TV doing here? I mean the Masters is iconic and all that, but in terms of the entertainment TV streaming battle, are they going to be a huge bidding war from where you said?

[Randall Williams]

I think so. I think we're a couple of years away from that. But media rights are of course a huge part of the sports business. And if you're not in the media rights business, then your sport probably isn't going to last very long. And the PGA Tour is still the dominant presence in golf, I think live, the threat of live came from the Saudis who had seemingly limitless pockets. Now that that is not in existence anymore, the PGA Tours again, once again the dominant franchise that I think broadcasters are going to be bidding on.

[Meredith Whitney]

Yeah.

[Scarlet Fu]

With Saudi Arabia pulling its funding from that other golf league. Thank you so much. Bloomberg senior business of sports reporter Randall Williams. Joining us now, I'm pleased to say, is the CEO, the new CEO of the PGA Tour, Brian Roll up. Brian, great to see you here.

[Brian Roloff]

Great to see you.

[Scarlet Fu]

So we've just talked about how golf is for the traditionalists. A lot of people like to say it's the sport most like life because it's hard, but it's also kind of elitist and kind of expensive. Coming from the NFL, do you see those as features to be protected or barriers to growth that should be challenged?

[Brian Roloff]

Well, I think any sport, professional sport that's worth its salt will always sort of challenge where it is. And I think there's One thing I learned at the NFL over two decades is, you know, if you're not going forwards, you're going backwards and innovation matters. So when I first took the job, I was very clear that we're going to honor tradition, but we're not going to be overly bound by it. And you look at some of the trends of the game of golf, while, as you say, maybe it has this reputation as elitist. If you look at the growth since COVID participation in golf in this country has grown 39% since COVID Now you don't have to play a sport to watch it on television, but sure helps. Half of that growth is under the age of 35. The average age of a professional tour telecast, inclusive of the majors is 66 years old. So there is a disconnect between where the sport is going and what professionals

[Mike McKee]

have been able to do.

[Brian Roloff]

We are closing that gap in significant ways. And if you just close that gap to a minimum, you've got a bit of a rocket ship.

[Scarlet Fu]

You've talked about how Liv Golf helped expose some of the weaknesses of the tour. Was the biggest lessons about the economics of professional golf or about the product itself?

[Brian Roloff]

I think it's the product. I think you listen. There's something about the sports industry I don't understand. If you look at the history, huge innovation usually doesn't happen without a crisis. It could be a labor dispute with a collective bargaining agreement. Back in my old job, the USFL or the AFL, NFL, when I looked at this opportunity, I just saw the AFL NFL, which essentially created a lot of systemic changes in professional football that started to accelerate the growth. I think we've had that moment here. So I think a lot of perhaps shortcomings in professional golf came with a little bit of competition where all Americans competition is a good thing. So I think we've seen that and we're trying to build something that outlives all of us here.

[David Gurro]

What did you learn from Pete Roselle? I mean, it was before your time. If we say Pete Roselle invented all of this, really best practices as well, what is it? If you're the Pete Roselle of golf, what do you need to do to really jump start it?

[Brian Roloff]

It's a really good question. Pete Roselle, I think one thing he got, I mean he was, he was 34 years old when he took a job. And I don't think people realize that, but he, he was the first one who figured out media, I think when it came to himself. So the modern media model that I think you see in the NFL that I was a part of, but then I think other sports have adopted.

[David Gurro]

Right.

[Brian Roloff]

Is if you. If you get your media model right, you can build the sport. So when he started the. When he started working in the NFL, it was probably the third most popular sport in the country behind professional baseball and college football. But because of a reach model using network television, he built the sport, told the stories. And so I think that's one thing I've learned is how, you know, we're concentrating. How do you increase the reach of the PGA Tour? And how do you tell more stories about the athletes who play it?

[David Gurro]

Okay, so you got Arnie from Altoona, Pennsylvania, coming up the course, lighting it up decades, decades, decades ago. I was at Rochester in 1968 when Lee Trevino turned your sport upside down. Who's your new Lee Trevino?

[Brian Roloff]

Well, listen, I think. I think we have a lot of stars. I think there's a misconception about professional golf that a given competition or given tournament only matters if one or two golfers are in it. When you actually look at professional golf, the difference in winning a tournament and losing tournament is one stroke over, four days. That type of competitive parity, it's that tight. The only other place I've seen that is in professional football. So the reality is we have a collection of some pretty amazing golfers. Whether you take the established guys like Scotty scheffler and Rory McIlroy, or you look at the Koivan kid who's just coming out of Auburn and some of these younger guys who were just really performing well. I think we have an amazing roster of veterans and young guys who are really, really competitive. It's our job to actually showcase them better.

[Scarlet Fu]

Randall was talking to us about the PGA Tour Enterprises, this commercial arm. Of course, FIFA wanted to follow the Tour's lead and spin off its own business and seek outside investors that ended up failing. I'm curious to hear more about the PGA Tour Enterprises and the role of it in the PGA Tour overall. Is this something that the players feel and experience? Is this something that the fans feel and experience?

[Brian Roloff]

Yeah, I think. I think the answer is both of them will. I think the players experience it.

[Mike McKee]

Where.

[Brian Roloff]

What PGA Tour Enterprises has allowed us to do is to evolve the PGA Tour. Where most professional sports have gotten. We've actually capitalized it and turned it into a commercial business. And the strength of that commercial business funds innovation. It funds player purchases. It funds everything. I think the PGA Tour was locked in a bit of a legacy governance model. Now that the Mission is clear. Now that we're capitalized, we can do that. So I think the players will feel it in that you look at the new competitive model that we've announced, there's healthy purses across the board and they can actually earn equity in the tour. This is the only professional tour of scale that I can think of. Players can actually earn equity, which is a huge opportunity. And also alignment, investors, management and players like no other sport in the world. I think the fans will feel it because of that commercial change to the tour. We have investment dollars to make the fan experience better, to make the competitive product better, to make the media product better. So I think that is, and I think that's one thing that came out of this live competition crisis is we got focused, we got capitalized, now we know what the mission is. And I think fans and players are going to look win.

[David Gurro]

Because what are you personally into about slow play? There's no other. Meredith Whitney was just on with us and she stand on the golf course lining up a five foot putt for 20 minutes.

[Mike McKee]

Yeah.

[David Gurro]

And the answer is slow. I mean the retires, we do, we do personal finance, retirement wealth management. Everybody in retirement wants to play your sport four days a week, but they can't because of stupid slow play. What do you do?

[Brian Roloff]

Well, I don't, I don't stay up at night worrying about slow play among amateurs at their country club. I actually, actually don't care about that. I only when I think about a PGA tour, professional golf. I think it depends when we're talking about who you're talking to, when you're talking about slow play on a Thursday or Friday round before the cut, when we have 144 players and it's early in the year and we're racing against daylight to keep this on television.

[David Gurro]

There you go.

[Brian Roloff]

We need to speak up.

[David Gurro]

Fascinating.

[Brian Roloff]

We need to head up. When you're talking about a Sunday round or a playoff and someone's taking extra time to line up a shot because it's the shot of their life, that's different. So I think context matters here. I also think it's about how we produce the sport. So if you're watching on television and somebody is actually standing over a putt a little longer, there's a thousand other shots going on on the golf course. It's our job and our broadcast partners produce it better. I come from the NFL where we produce the Red Zone Channel. Red Zone Channel moved around. The fact of the matter is, is half the time when you go in to look At a Cleveland game. It's not live. It already happened. Roll it back. I think we can produce it better and actually tell a better story. So it's a complex issue, but I'm not really focused on your local club. That's the local club's problem. I'm really focused on the PGA Tour.

[Scarlet Fu]

Can you do a red zone version of the PGA Tour?

[David Gurro]

I think.

[Brian Roloff]

I think. I think we're talking about a lot of innovation, but if you think about how golf is produced already, it is a little bit of a red zone here. Scarlett on the 18th green. Let's take a look. Let's go over here.

[David Gurro]

I got to ask, do you need a hydration break? I mean, please tell me. I mean, it's the ninth hole. Hydration break was a Jenny Cream album, but that's. What are you going to do about a hydration break to bring in a marginal million?

[Brian Roloff]

Well, no comment on that. I asked the FIFA guys on that. I don't have a view on that.

[Scarlet Fu]

Well, having said that, I mean, I'm sure you watched the World Cup. Are there any learnings from the World cup, the spectacle that was the World cup, that you can apply to pro golf?

[Brian Roloff]

I just think in general, I think the world or what we're doing, what other sports are doing, it's a reminder that the value of sports is increasing in a world that is continually fragmented, whether it's by media, so much competition for your attention, there's a handful of things that are standing out that can aggregate tens of millions of people at one time doing one thing. And I think it's sports and maybe some news. So I think that is encouraging. If you're in the sports business now, you know, it doesn't mean you can rest on your laurels. It means you need to innovate and keep up with the changing demographics of the sports fan. But I think if the World cup or anything has taught us is that sports is a pretty strong investment class.

[Scarlet Fu]

Okay. When you innovate, especially when it comes to media distribution, it gets to the point where fans are left confused. We have a Bloomberg News story about how sports fans are looking at $2,000 streaming bills in order to follow their favorite team. Has it gone too far to where the point. Point where fans will start rebelling and it won't work anymore and we have to kind of rethink this.

[Brian Roloff]

Well, if fans are rebelling in sports, we haven't seen it yet. But I think the larger question is, while I'm a big believer that in order to build A sport in the value proposition of sports and media is reach. How many people can you reach? How can you aggregate audiences? That is still true. Pete Roselle got that right. That is still the case. The difference is reach is much more. More complicated because of where the media world is.

[David Gurro]

I got to slip this in you gift. He's got Florida State. I think he's 14. I don't think he can drive a car. Miles Russell.

[Brian Roloff]

Okay.

[David Gurro]

What do you do with a property like Miles Russell, who's 15, I think 15, 16 years old.

[Brian Roloff]

Well, I think what you're going to see is when we announce our new competitive model, which if you study what we've done is we've opened up the meritocracy of the PGA Tour. We've created a championship series, which is the top 23 events or so where the top 120 golfers are going to compete together week in and week out. They can't play down into the Challenger Series, which is for everybody else. They will compete for a regular season title. That will be the most precious, prestigious thing in golf. There will also be promotion, relegation. So at the end of that, you're going to be relegated down. My point is we've opened up the meritocracy. So if he's that good, we've now created a system where he will. Will work his way in to be into the top. Top. No more sponsor exemptions. No more of the stuff that, that hit in the meritocracy. Where you play is based on how you earned it in the play. So I think that's important.

[Scarlet Fu]

Brian, at some point, LeBron James will have a lot of free time, and we know that he's been playing a lot of golf and he is an investor in PGA Tour enterprises. Have you talked to Mr. James about some kind of role for him in professional golf? I don't know, some kind of ambassadorial role?

[Brian Roloff]

No, I haven't. But I think, I think, I think LeBron James is an example of the growth of the sport. Like, when people get the bug, they get the bug.

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[Brian Roloff]

it's a great competitive sport to play, but also to watch. And so we'd love LeBron to be more involved. We love everyone to be more involved. And I think you're going to see more of that over time.

[Scarlet Fu]

Brian, thank you so much for your time today.

[Brian Roloff]

Thank you.

[Scarlet Fu]

Great to have you in with us. Brian roloff, the new CEO of the PGA Tour.

[David Gurro]

Can you see LeBron in a sand trap? And nobody else can see the T shirt? And he's just looking right over.

[Brian Roloff]

And I know in those, those deep bunkers on the links course, you can see over. Yeah, it's gets an advantage.

[David Gurro]

It's very cool to say that would

[Scarlet Fu]

make a very interesting red zone version of PGA Tour if you put that all together.

[David Gurro]

I'm excited about what I heard here. I mean, I think, you know, they're really, with the adversity of the last couple of years, really getting their act together.

[Scarlet Fu]

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's a big subject in terms of, of everyone spending all their time playing golf, watching golf and spending money, streaming golf and other sports.

[David Gurro]

It was an honor here to interview Lee Trevino a number of years ago, but just seared in my memory.

[Scarlet Fu]

You were talking about caddying and how you made a lot.

[David Gurro]

I caddied. It was like four bags a day. Really? Yeah, I caddied Oak Hill, where you had a wonderful tournament a couple years ago. It was great. It was, it was a real learning experience.

[Tom Keene]

This, this is the Bloomberg Money Podcast, bringing you a smart look at the forces shaping your financial life. I'm Tom Keene with Scarlet Fu. You can watch the show live on Bloomberg TV every Friday at noon, Wall street time. Subscribe to the podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen. And as always, on the Bloomberg terminal and the Bloomberg business app,

[Scarlet Fu]

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[Brian Roloff]

How is this $47? All right, we're gonna need a plan here.

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