Former Meta COO & Author Sheryl Sandberg Talks Workplace Diversity

Summary

---

Bloomberg Talks

Episode: Former Meta COO & Author Sheryl Sandberg Talks Workplace Diversity
Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Emily Chang
Guest: Sheryl Sandberg (Former Meta COO, Author of “Lean In”)

---

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between Bloomberg host Emily Chang and Sheryl Sandberg, former COO of Meta and author of “Lean In.” The discussion centers around the current state of workplace diversity, the rollback of DEI (Diversity, Equity, Inclusion) initiatives, industry trends affecting women’s advancement, and broader cultural narratives around gender roles in both policy and the workplace. Sandberg offers insight grounded in recent research, extensive business experience, and personal perspective, providing both actionable recommendations for organizations and a candid assessment of the challenges that persist today.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The "Ambition Gap" and Corporate Priorities

• Women “leaning out”: Chang raises concerns that women are increasingly disengaging from the pursuit of promotions because it seems “not worth it” in the current climate.
• Sandberg’s Clarification: Not all women or companies are disengaging; rather, organizations are de-prioritizing advancement for women.
  • "About half of companies no longer prioritize advancement for women. And 21% of those companies say women's career advancement is a low or no priority at all." (Sandberg, 00:59)
• Statistical Gaps: Research from Sandberg’s 2025 “Women in the Workplace” report with McKinsey shows some of the “best” companies are pulling back, and where support is lacking, ambition gaps widen.

2. Systemic Barriers and the "Broken Rung"

• Bias in Advancement:
  • "For every 100 that get promoted, 93 women, 60 black women, 82 Latinas. That's because we hire and promote men based on potential and women for what they've already proven." (Sandberg, 01:43)
• Leadership Training Disparities: Men are 70% more likely to be tapped for leadership programs at the same job level as women.
• Treating women's career advancement as an economic imperative: “Do we want to get the best growth in our economy?...We’re at a fork in the road and companies have a decision to make.” (Sandberg, 02:43)

3. Policy Shifts and Societal Pressures (Natalist Policies)

• Trump Administration Natalist Push: Policies incentivizing women to have more children while rolling back workplace protections.
  • Sandberg calls this a rebranding of old ideas rather than true innovation.
  • “The great majority of women do not have the choice to be a full time mother...they have an economic reality that they have to wake up in the morning and leave their home to earn money.” (Sandberg, 03:14)
  • On “trad wife” rhetoric: “That's just telling these women that have to leave their home that it's going to harm their marriages and their kids. That's not what the data supports.” (Sandberg, 03:44)

4. The Attack on DEI and Historical Context

• Rollback and Backlash: Federal threats to DEI under the Trump administration; misconceptions about “special treatment.”
  • “Women got 59% of the college degrees, and women are 10% of Fortune 500 CEO jobs...Do you really think that 59% of the college degrees getting 10% of the jobs means there's systematic special treatment for women?” (Sandberg, 04:36)
• Legal, Actionable Solutions:
  • Use standardized, universally applied criteria for evaluations and feedback.
  • "1% of men get style-based feedback in performance reviews and 66% of women. What can companies do? You establish criteria in advance that everyone agrees to that are universally applied." (Sandberg, 05:29)

5. Meta, Internal Culture Shifts, and Sandberg’s Legacy

• DEI Policy Rollback at Meta: Reports of her legacy being blamed for now-dialed-back policies.
  • Sandberg disputes the narrative and points instead to data-driven recommendations for fair practices such as standardized interview questions and structures.
  • “So for example, interviews. If you don't have agreed upon questions...people sometimes ask the easier questions to the men and the harder questions to the women. Just standardize your questions.” (Sandberg, 06:42)

6. Rhetoric Change in Silicon Valley: Business or Values Shift?

• Chang asks if the anti-DEI shift is substantive or transactional.
• Sandberg sees cyclical progress and setbacks.
  • "We make progress, we backslide, we make progress, there's a backlash. I think the reason these ideas take hold so easily is they were never really gone." (Sandberg, 07:36)
• Generational Concerns:
  • “Eighth and tenth grade boys... in 2018... 63% said women should have the same opportunities as men... Today it's 45. We are seeing that same double ditch slide in middle and high school boys believing that women should get equal pay. That's not okay.” (Sandberg, 08:17)
  • Sandberg underscores this trend as a critical warning for the future.

7. Advice for Companies in the AI Era

• Chang pivots to how companies can build models that survive amid the current startup and AI “chaos.”
• Sandberg draws on her experience at Google and Meta:
  • “There’s times when it really makes sense to invest ahead of revenue and business models...but over time, the revenue is going to have to cover the costs.” (Sandberg, 09:22)
• Simplicity of business models:
  • “Someone has to pay. Who can pay? Businesses can pay...via advertising...via database services...It's not complicated.” (Sandberg, 09:53)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On advancement priorities slipping:
  • “About half of companies no longer prioritize advancement for women. And 21% of those companies say women's career advancement is a low or no priority at all.” – Sheryl Sandberg (00:59)
• On the broken rung of leadership:
  • “For every 100 that get promoted, 93 women, 60 black women, 82 Latinas. That's because we hire and promote men based on potential and women for what they've already proven.” – Sheryl Sandberg (01:43)
• On misunderstanding DEI:
  • “Do you really think that 59% of the college degrees getting 10% of the jobs means there's systematic special treatment for women?” – Sheryl Sandberg (04:36)
• On shifting rhetoric and backlash:
  • “We make progress, we backslide, we make progress, there's a backlash. I think the reason these ideas take hold so easily is they were never really gone.” – Sheryl Sandberg (07:36)
• On future economic productivity:
  • "This is about economic productivity. This is about do we want our companies to succeed?" – Sheryl Sandberg (08:52)
• On gender attitudes among young men:
  • “2018…63% [of boys] said yes [women should have the same opportunities]. Today it's 45. We are seeing that double ditch slide...” – Sheryl Sandberg (08:17)
• On business model clarity:
  • "People make it so complicated. It's not complicated. Ready. Someone has to pay. Who can pay? Businesses can pay. They can pay via advertising. They can pay via paying in some way, shape or form for database services or people have to pay. And it will be a combination of all of these things. But over time, the revenue is going to have to cover the costs." – Sheryl Sandberg (09:53)

---

Timestamps by Segment

• Ambition gap and lack of advancement: 00:41 – 02:52
• Natalist policy pressures: 02:52 – 04:18
• DEI rollbacks and legal solutions: 04:18 – 05:56
• Meta legacy and process standardization: 05:56 – 07:11
• Silicon Valley rhetoric shift and backlash cycles: 07:11 – 08:56
• Startups & AI-era business modeling advice: 08:56 – 10:13

---

Summary

This episode delivers a thought-provoking, data-driven exploration of the current and future state of workplace diversity and gender equity. Sheryl Sandberg shares both high-level trends—such as the backslide in DEI support and the “ambition gap”—and specific, actionable ways companies can correct course, including standardized feedback, interview processes, and genuine leadership investment in women.

With urgency, Sandberg warns against regression, especially among the younger generation’s attitudes, while encouraging businesses to see diversity as a route to economic growth. Her practical advice for navigating the convergence of business sustainability and technological change rounds out the conversation, making this episode essential listening for business leaders, policymakers, and advocates invested in the future of work.

---

Transcript

[Indiana University Narrator]

Old playbooks won't solve tomorrow's problems. Indiana University is proving how higher education can create solutions with industry. Our partnerships address future talent and workforce needs, support entrepreneurs and local businesses, and create solutions that turn discoveries into dollars. Together, we're building a model for industry partnerships that fuel economic growth. Explore IU's impact at iu.edu impact.

[Sheryl Sandberg]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News Pleased to say. Joining us right now is Bloomberg Originals host and executive producer Emily Chang. She joins us right now with Sheryl Sandberg.

[Emily Chang]

Emily Romain, thank you so much. And Cheryl, thank you so much for joining us. I know this ambition gap is troubling to you. Essentially, women are leaning out. They're deciding they don't want to be promoted because it doesn't seem worth it after all the work that's been done, all the talk, what do you think? Broke?

[Sheryl Sandberg]

Well, let's start at the top. So not all women are leaning out and not all companies. But what our report shows this year, this is our 11th year, is that about half of companies no longer prioritize advancement for women. And 21% of those companies say women's career advancement is a low or no priority at all. And those are the companies that participated in the Women in the Workplace report we do with McKinsey. And so these companies in many ways are the best of the best. And then we do see that ambition gap, but but only when women don't get the opportunities and support they need.

[Emily Chang]

How does companies at risk like or is the conventional wisdom that this is better for business not ringing true?

[Sheryl Sandberg]

I think the conventional wisdom should be and is what's true, which is that when you get the best out of your whole workforce, you're going to do better. So what's happening is that women face more barriers at every level of the career entry level. We call it the broken rung. And we see it every year for every 100 that get promoted, 93 women, 60 black women, 82 Latinas. That's because we hire and promote men based on potential and women for what they've already proven. So of course women can't prove they're a manager. Then at the senior levels, our report shows this year that at the same levels, a man is 70% more likely to get tapped for leadership training. Think about what that says. You're a future leader come to leadership training. And so this is only happening in the companies that aren't doing the right thing thing. When women get the full support and the same stretch opportunities, they're not leaning out at all. And so it's a question of economic productivity. Do we want to get the best growth in our economy? Do we want to get the best out of our workforce? We're at a fork in the road and companies have a decision to make.

[Emily Chang]

The Trump administration is pushing policies that explicitly try to incentivize women to have more babies while simultaneously weakening workplace protections. Do you see these natalist policies, as they are called, as pressure on women to return to traditional roles? Or is it support for families?

[Sheryl Sandberg]

I mean, look, women can have as many kids as they want and still have to go to work. I think what we forget in a lot of this is that the great majority of women do not have the choice to be a full time mother and a full time spouse. Now, I feel we sometimes come up with new language for old ideas. And I want to be clear. If you can afford to be a full time spouse and a full time parent as a man or a woman, and you want to do that, I think that can be deeply fulfilling work. But we've got to remember that most women don't have that option. They have an economic reality that they have to wake up in the morning and leave their home to earn money to support their families. And so, again, new language for old ideas. Trad wife. That's just telling these women that have to leave their home that it's going to harm their marriages and their kids. That's not what the data supports. Courts, we should be able to make any choice we make without putting old pressures on women in a modern workforce where that's not the economic reality they live in.

[Emily Chang]

President Trump has called on companies to root out what he calls illegal d I, you know, threatening federal contracts, threatening regulatory action. How is this going to be looked back on? How is history going to look back on the DEI rollback?

[Sheryl Sandberg]

You know, I think people didn't understand and thought that women were getting unfair treatment. But let's throw some numbers at this. Women got 59% of the college degrees, and women are 10% of Fortune 500 CEO jobs. I'm not saying there aren't times when people are given preferential treatment. Of course there are. But on average, in our economy, do you really think that 59% of the college degrees getting 10% of the jobs means there's systematic special treatment for women? I mean, my experience in the workforce, and I think yours and a lot of people's, is that it was hard. It was hard to be one of the only women women in the room. And so the question is, what can companies do. And I'll tell you, there's a lot they can do and it's in our report and it's completely legal. So for example, feedback. 1% of men get style based feedback in performance reviews and 66% of women. What can companies do? You establish criteria in advance that everyone agrees to that are universally applied. Everyone gets this kind of feedback that is not just legally permissible, but allowed and encouraged and creates a level playing field. This isn't about special treatment. This is about giving everyone the opportunity to do their best work and contribute.

[Emily Chang]

Meta is among many companies that have rolled back DEI policies. And Mark Zuckerberg reportedly blamed you for the policies being there in the first first place. Some employees have felt that your legacy is being dismantled. What have your conversations been like with Mark about this? I know you're still friends and you have to have feelings about this.

[Sheryl Sandberg]

I don't think that's exactly what happened in that meeting. And Mark went out and publicly posted and clarified. But, but here's what I would say is that every company, including Metta, has the opportunity to make sure that they're fair to women. Here's what the data shows us over and over and over again. I think so many examples, when a man and woman ask for raises or promotions, the woman's 30% more likely to be told she's too aggressive. What do you do? Standardize your processes. Every company should be doing it. So for example, interviews. If you don't have agreed upon questions, you ask naturally, and maybe not on purpose, but naturally people sometimes ask the easier questions to the men and the harder questions to the women. Just standardize your questions. Put systems in place that protect people, but also that just give people the opportunity to contribute.

[Emily Chang]

You have to acknowledge that there's a big rhetoric shift happening and obviously we're seeing it in Silicon Valley. We are seeing people, tech leaders who said one thing in the last election now whispering in the president's ear. A lot of these people that you know personally, what do you think is happening here? Is this transactional? Is this just business or is this, is this a real change in values happening?

[Sheryl Sandberg]

I think a lot of the rhetoric is terrible and I think we see some of the impacts in this report. But you know, I'm 56, so I've been in the workforce, is my fourth decade and what I see is that we make progress, we backslide, we make progress, there's a backlash. I think the reason these ideas take hold so easily is they were never really gone. Even though the rhetoric is bad now Do I really think we ever fully encouraged leadership in little girls and little boys and women as much as men? No. So when it happens, when this rhetoric happens, it's so easy to take hold because it's like fertile ground. I'll give you one that really scares me. 8th and 10th grade boys, middle and high school boys, they surveyed them in 2018 and they said, what do you think? Believe women should have the same opportunities as men in the workforce in 2018? 63% said yes. I could spend all day talking about why that's so upsetting. Like, where are the other 37%? But 63 said yes. 63% said yes. Today it's 45. We are seeing that same double ditch slide in middle and high school boys believing that women should get equal pay. That's not okay. And what it's going to take to change that is I think people realizing that this is about economic productivity. This is about do we want our companies to succeed?

[Emily Chang]

You built two companies, helped build two companies that are incredibly economically productive. We are in the middle of this massive moment where companies are investing a lot. You. But it's also total chaos, it seems, for, you know, within and among some of these startups that are trying to build sustainable business models in an AI moment. What's your advice to companies right now about how they build a business model that can work and survive in the age of AI?

[Sheryl Sandberg]

You know, it's such a good question. And I was at Google in some of the early years and then I went to Facebook, you know, now Metta and I do think there's times when it really makes sense to invest ahead of revenue and business models. Right. If Google when I was there in the early days, had tried to cover our costs for search, we never would have gotten enough search out there to get enough user feedback to improve the search results to get to what was a great business for Google. So it makes sense. At some point, at some level, you have to have revenue that covers costs.

[Emily Chang]

Is that from ads?

[Sheryl Sandberg]

Well, people make it so complicated. It's not complicated. Ready. Someone has to pay. Who can pay? Businesses can pay. They can pay via advertising. They can pay via paying in some way, shape or form for database services or people have to pay. And it will be a combination of all of these things. But over time, the revenue is going to have to cover the costs.

[Emily Chang]

All right. Sheryl Sandberg, author of Lean in, you know, obviously helped build Facebook and Google into what they are today.

[Indiana University Narrator]

Old Playbooks won't solve tomorrow's problems. Indiana University is redefining the relationship between higher education and industry. We're addressing future talent and workforce needs through more than 10,000 industry partnerships, supporting and investing in young entrepreneurs and businesses that create jobs and grow the economy, and facilitating the research and development that lead to breakthrough solutions. This isn't business as usual. Indiana University plus industry is a partnership that fuels economic growth. Explore IU's impact at IU. Edu impact.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Hey Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. One of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the the gift of Mint Mobile's Unlimited Wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try at mintmobile. Com.

[Emily Chang]

Switch upfront payment of $45 for three.

[Sheryl Sandberg]

Month plan equivalent to $15 per month required new customer offer for first three months only.

[Emily Chang]

Speed slow after 35 gigabytes if network's busy.

[Sheryl Sandberg]

Taxes and fees extra.

[Emily Chang]

See mintmobile.

[Sheryl Sandberg]

Com.