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- [00:00]
Indiana University Announcer
Indiana University strengthens tomorrow's workforce with practical, real world experience. IU grads make a difference in your community, serving as teachers, nurses and engineers who rise to tomorrow's challenges and meet them. Learn more at iu.edu impact,
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Bloomberg audio Studios Podcasts, Radio News.
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Carol (Interviewer)
If you've been on social media anywhere really over the past few years, then you've definitely seen her videos.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Even before Kim Kardashian had kids, she was putting money away in a 529 for their education and retirement. I'm Mrs. Dow Jones, your faith personal finance expert. Here's why rich people love 529 plans. And you should, too. A 529 plan is a tax advantage investment account for future education costs. By contributing to one, you'll likely get tax deductions and credits
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Carol (Interviewer)
Kim Kardashian in 529 plans. That's the gift of Mrs. Dow Jones, also known as Haley Sacks. She's the author of Future Rich Person, the new rules for building wealth. Even if you're stuck, broke and that billionaire will not text you back. Also, the host of the Financial Tea podcast, Haley Saks. Welcome.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So excited to be here.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Can I just say, like, this is not about me, but like, I knew
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
you way back when we really did cheddar. Those were the days.
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Carol (Interviewer)
These were the days.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Look at us now.
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Carol (Interviewer)
I know. And you know, you joined me on the floor of the New York Stock Exchange like a million years ago, and all the traders were like, Mrs. Dow Jones is here. The question that I have for you is a very Bloomberg question.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Okay.
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Carol (Interviewer)
The Dow Jones Industrial Average these days doesn't get a lot of love.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes, I know.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Mrs. S and P 500 doesn't have the same plan.
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Carol (Interviewer)
How did you come up with the name that has stuck for so many years?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You know, I always thought that Mrs. Dow Jones was about, like, being married to your own financial freedom and your future, and that really comes from investing. But when I created the moniker, I didn't think at all about, like, the legal implications of it. I was just like, this sounds fun. But, you know, I didn't think about the fact that, like, it's the Dow Jones, like, you don't really want to mess with Rupert Murdoch. They've been very kind to me, I want to say. But, you know, it could have gone either way.
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Carol (Interviewer)
You know, you've been doing this for a long time. I think even before the concept of influencer.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Was a thing.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Did you ever think you could grow it into the business? The brand, the book, the Podcast that you've grown it into.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You know, I think that you always have that vision for yourself, but it has taken so much work. I've done this for nine years. And when, like when you said when I started this influencing wasn't a thing. Now you see all the data of like, you know, kids all want to be influencers. It's this, you know, job that people aspire to. But it was something that I was doing on the side and pursuing really as a passion project. And so, I mean I always dreamed it would be coming here, but I didn't. I was betting on myself. I'm glad that we made it.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
What was it though that made you because you studied film?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I studied film.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
So tell me how you got to this.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
And like thought about because there's so many books as you know, and so many advice channels out there when it comes to investing and your financial well being. So tell us how you kind of got there. What was it that you said, wait, there's something I can share, I can build and help others with.
- [03:15]
Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So I had such a weird path to finance. I was a comedian. So like my first job was for David Letterman. And then I was and which was a gig working job. And then I was, you know, working all these 1099 jobs trying to build my career as a comedian. And no one had ever taught me about money. I never learned it in school. And then I had this big break where I got a job for Lauren Michaels who started snl. And it was a full time job. And actually my, the other person who got that same role is now on snl. It's Ben Marshall, like the, I don't know if you guys watch snl, but the guy with the red hair, of course you watch it. Big star now. So happy for Ben. But like we were cohorts. But the first day of that job I was so excited. I was like, yes, I finally made it. I'm like, you know, in corporate America getting off the train at 8am like this rocks. And they asked me, they had the audacity really to ask me about 401ks and health insurance and just all these things that no one had ever explained to me. And I was mortified because I didn't want to seem like, okay, they made a bad hire. And so then I went home that night as any self respecting, like millennial would. I think I probably stress ordered Thai food and was like googling all of these terms. And what I found was either information for women that was like so based in deprivation, like you know, I literally read an article about rewashing your paper towels, about how you should never buy a pre cut vegetable from a grocery store. I'm sorry. That saves some time. Like you gotta.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Time is money.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah, you got. Time is money. You know, just lattes, of course, no avocado toast. Like it just made your life seem like it had to be so small.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
It's always like cut out the manicure
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
for like in your life. It's horrible. Or the information for men was about investing, but it was so jargon heavy and it was like just not presented in a way that I really could understand. And so I was eager to find someone who would make it like aspirational to grow wealth. I couldn't find her, so I became her.
- [05:11]
Carol (Interviewer)
So you saw you, you saw that as an opportunity, but you don't just immediately put content out there and put yourself out there and real that, oh, this works, right? Yeah, no, there's an uphill battle here. Yeah, there is a time it takes to like understand what resonates with your audience. You have to build that audience. Not easy.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Not. It's so funny being on the book tour because I was looking back and like seeing when I was about to break 9,000 followers or 20,000 or 40,000 and I couldn't believe it. But it's also crazy how much social media has changed in that time because when I started, the way that finance was presented in like a humorous way on social media was through memes. And so I was. And the only one who's really left of that cohort is Litquidity, who still has a big presence. But there were like maybe six of us. Besides that he stayed. Everyone else has, you know, sort of dissipated.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Still memes.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Still memes. Exactly. And he's not really that public facing but like he, you know, has branched his business out in a lot of different ways. He's done really cool things with it, but you know, no. And no one was showing their face. He only showed his face about like a year ago. And so I. And this was before reels were a thing too. So I started to put up videos that I think were literally shot like horizontally on Instagram. It wasn't optimized for it at all about these money topics. And that's where it sort of started from.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
How did you figure out though? Like there, there's so much stuff out there about, you know, pay yourself, save money, take advantage of, you know, your employer's 401k plan. How did you out figure. Figure out how do I You know, learn about what really makes a difference, what makes sense. Because there's just so much again, and what's proven, like, how did you figure that out?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
That's such a good question, Carol. I think that it really is about testing. Like, I mean, you guys are on air all the time too. I'm sure there's segments that go absolutely bananas that people really relate to and then you use that data. Like, I really learned that my audience loves to know about generational wealth. They want to know the secrets to that, or, you know, they want to know about how to optimize their benefits. They love to know about negotiating. But this is all because I've tried that content and then there's a lot of content that you don't see that doesn't work. You know, influencing or making videos online is a day by day game. So it's literally like you're getting a scorecard every day and you can sort of use that and recalibrate.
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Carol (Interviewer)
You've built this into a real business. I mean, I saw in part of the book promotion, I saw you talk about how much money you're making.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Can you share that? That's a big number.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Well, I never share the exact figures, but it definitely is a seven figure business. And I think the coolest thing is that I'm able to employ really great people and, you know, invest that back in the business and growing it. But I did share that I have brand deals that are over seven figures, which is pretty sick. I will. I'm using the word sick on Bloomberg. I think I'm the first person to do that.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
But we've had other four letter words,
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
not as lovely as that one, that's slang for cool.
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Carol (Interviewer)
But like you said, it's a team.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah. Oh my gosh. And that's what's so funny about releasing a book too is it's like it's my name on the book, but it's been so many people building it, so you really can't do anything on your own.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
So, like, let's talk about what are some of the mistakes like people do. Like I have to say, there's one thing, page 105, emotional regulation. Like, I do think about, you know, if you can take the emotion out of money. I feel like it's so important.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So important it's not easy. Or even when you think about people in relationships with money. Like the whole reason that no one talks about money in relationships is because of the emotional aspect. But if you just take that down a notch and you look at it as like, oh, this is a business decision that we're getting married. Of course you're going to get a prenup. Because every business agreement has a contract.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Yeah.
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Carol (Interviewer)
To do it.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah. So do I got a prenup?
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
No. Because then it's very clear. Right.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
We know what the rules are going into it. But it's. But I feel like money and how, especially with couples or just how people spend or even in, like, a family, if you have siblings and you're older and you're doing a house or something together, like, you just how somebody uses their money, you can make judgment calls and you have to be very careful because it. You can, you know.
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Carol (Interviewer)
But I think why what you identified so early and like, it looks so simple and easy in hindsight to see this is that our generation is different than other generations. Like, student loan debt, the cost of buying a home for those kids in college right now, going and finding that first job and dealing with the AI challenges like this is. And I feel like millennial personal finance is really having a moment right now. Maybe because we're all getting older. I don't know if that's what it is.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Or. Or because we're learning and everybody's learning that that the classic stuff that, that we. That our parents were told doesn't really work for us.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
That is such a good point. And that's sort of why I wrote the book. It's called the New Rules of Building wealth. Because, you know, I read so many personal finance books. That's really how I educated myself to become Mrs. Dow Jones, like, just by reading so much. And although I love a lot of those books in the canon, what I always would recognize was the information that they were giving was so outdated. And I think what's so cool about being a financial influencer is that I'm able to get real time data from my followers. So it's like I'm reading this book and it's like, in the canon, and everyone's like, this is the finance book that you need to get rich. And then it's like, I'm in my DMs and people are complaining because since 2000, the cost of living has gone up 67%, but wages have gone up 7%. Or like you said, inflation, student debt, AI, all these things. And so there needs to be new rules that meet us where we are at now. And that's why I wrote this book, because I want it to be in the canon for the world that we're in.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
So, hey, let's talk about some of the rules. So I'm just sharing our producer Talia Sending. Like if someone is starting at their first step or they're deep in a hole with debt or don't have any savings, what is the first step you think someone should take to get their finances in order?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So the first step I would really recommend, and it's not rocket science, we've heard it before, but you have to have that emergency fund, like you've just got to get that through. You got to really power through and get that three to six months in a high yield savings account. Because even if you have high interest rate debt, you need to have the emergency fund because if you don't and you get into more debt, then you're just going to get deeper in the hole. So that's. And it also builds a lot of self esteem. So that's always, I would say like the first step. You got to start there.
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Carol (Interviewer)
What about if you have student loan debt and you want, you want to try to get out of it, but you also want to try to save?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Well, you know, something I talk about in the book is like, I think one of the old rules of building wealth is that all debt is bad, that we need to all be out of debt. But I mean, you guys talk to really rich people all day. You know, they love leverage. Yeah. And so something that I explained in
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
the book and leverage does help make some people wealthier.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
And it could, yeah. No matter where you're at on the financial scale too, like you could be someone who's, you know, you're not a billionaire, but maybe you have student debt and it's below 7% which is sort of the threshold of low interest rate debt. That's something in the book that I would say it's actually okay, let's just pay the minimum on it and use whatever action money, extra money that you have left over on these other financial goals because you're going to be able to make more money than you would save. Paying that off aggressively.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
What are the most common pitfalls or mistakes you see people fall into?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You know, I think in this age of frictionless spending, it's really hard to hold onto your money like greed. Yeah, my parents generation, they were advertised to 500 times a day. We're advertised to 5,000 times a day. 20% of what you see online is an ad. And not only that, you have Apple pay on your phone and you're using it like Applebee paying. Like you're just, you know, tapping and you're going, it's not money. It's just a tap. And it is this form of emotional regulation, which I think comes also from the culture. Like, you know, even when you think about Sex and the City and Carrie Bradshaw and she would always buy shoes instead of investing. And like, you know, all the cool female characters in the canon are bad with money. It's sort of, you know, romanticized. And so I think that that's really what you have to work through first.
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Carol (Interviewer)
There's a. There's also a conversation happening about, like, the psychology of money. When. When people are used to making a certain amount of money, they. They continue even if they make more money spending the same. Spending in the same way. So I'm curious about spending money and if people suddenly come into disposable income.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah.
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Carol (Interviewer)
After working for a long time and living paycheck to paycheck.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Like how they. Well, there's actually. Did you see that graph from Goldman Sachs about people who are making 300 to 400k?
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Carol (Interviewer)
Yes, I just heard about this.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah.
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Carol (Interviewer)
So they say they're living paycheck to
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
paycheck more than people who make 75 to 100k. Because I think that it's so much of Keeping up with the Joneses. When you get to that point, you're like, oh, this is my paycheck. I guess we should do private school. Maybe we need two cars.
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Carol (Interviewer)
But I would say that those people are probably also saving very aggressively. So maybe they're living paycheck to paycheck after. After investing in the emergency fund, after putting money aside in their 401ks and 529s. I would. I would venture to say. I don't know.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I don't know.
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Carol (Interviewer)
I think it's all lifestyle creep.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I think it's lifestyle creep. Wow. I think that you have to be really careful. And like, that's why I preach so much in the book about automation. It's like, I don't. I wouldn't be a millionaire without automation. Like, it's. You need to be automating your finances. And when you get an increase in your salary, the first thing that you should do is increase the amount that you're contributing because you won't feel it.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Right.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
But then it's going to have such a big difference.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
It's like, it's. I always think about my mom, like, pay yourself first.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You just do it right off the
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
top and you just don't even miss it. And you adjust to, like, what's the pot? We are at Bloomberg. We Track the market day to day. I'm just thinking about casual participants, folks who are just trying to understand the investing landscape. I have family who are not always will come up, like, what book should I read? What should I do? Is there anything that you regularly pay attention to when it comes to the financial markets and that you think maybe that's what people should check on? Like, what should they do to get an understanding?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Well, you know, I think that reading financial books is really important. Like, that's a really great way. But there's something very different about understanding the markets and being like, good with money. Like in the book I make it very clear that you don't need to be a genius. You really just need like seventh grade math and some index funds and some automation and you can get there. And so, but, you know, this is sort of a different flavor of person. Carol, you know, seems to be really interested in the markets, in which case I would say you got to watch Bloomberg. You know, I love me a little cnbc. I subscribe to a bunch of newsletters. I love the Wall Street Journal. Like, you know, you have to, you read the publications and you, you know, track it as you go. You have to make sure that you are getting your information from credible sources.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Is social media a credible source?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
It is when you, you have to be thoughtful of. Social media has been so amazing in terms of promoting financial literacy, and we're even seeing it with Gen Z, that they are putting more into their 401ks than any generation. And I have to point to social media. Yeah, that's me as the reason that that's happening, because they have education at their fingertips that no one else did, but they also have access to a lot of scams.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Where do you see the best return on investment in content? Where, where are the people? Where are people following you and engaging with your content? Is it all Instagram?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You know, I. Instagram is huge. Instagram's amazing. TikTok can go crazy. But like, it's a very emotional process. Like they could just give you like no views. No views, no views. And then you're getting like 3 million. You're like, I'm big on 2. It's really hard to understand big ones on TikTok. Yeah, but like, you know, Instagram is way more consistent and I feel like I'm actually able to reach my audience. But I also really believe just in good content. Like, I'm not one of those creators who's ever going to be like, the algorithm screwed me. Like, if something isn't Working. We're going to change it. Like, I need to move with the times. Like, I've been around for nine years. I want to be around for a long time. And that's just going to take a lot of flexibility. Going where the eyeballs are and figuring out what's next.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Hayley, what's the question you get asked most often when people, like, know what you are, you know, what you do, what is your focus? What do you get asked the most?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I mean, probably, like, what to invest in.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Really?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Specifically?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yeah. What to invest in or how to negotiate.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Do you tell people that they should own a house? That it's a good goal?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I don't know. I mean, I think that it can be an amazing lifestyle decision, but I don't think that it is the investment that, like, the American dream.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Do you think renting makes more sense?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
I mean, I'm a millionaire and I rent.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Yeah.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Come on. But it's like, if I had kids and, like, a family, and I really wanted to choose my doorknobs. And I might do it as just, like, an investment in my life, which I talk about in the book, too. Like, not everything is about making money. You also need to leave room for lifestyle. But I think that this idea that you should make the biggest investment of your life, your house, is not smart.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Let's talk negotiating. Because you. I was thinking, you don't really have to negotiate your salary. Me, you don't. But you have to negotiate these brand deals.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Well, so I have a manager who does it for me.
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Carol (Interviewer)
But you have negotiation tips in here? Oh, I told how to get a raise.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Yes.
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Carol (Interviewer)
What's the right way to do that?
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
So the first thing you need to do is have a wins folder. Like, I think people think at work that, like, their boss is just every day taking notes like, wow, Carol, you did great today. Like, I'm going to write that down. Like, we're going to talk about that in your review. They're not. I'm sorry. You've gotta.
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Carol (Interviewer)
I keep track of the opposite, Carol.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
Was that of the bad things?
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Carol (Interviewer)
Just kidding. There are none. That folder is empty.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
Oh, my God.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Sorry. Please.
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Talia (Producer/Interviewer)
You know what I'm saying. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.
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Carol (Interviewer)
You use that in your review.
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Haley Sacks (Mrs. Dow Jones)
You have to go in with me. A case around. Why you deserve more money. That's number one. And then, you know, you've also got to make sure that you have a batna, which is the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. Because if they come back and they say no or they, you know, push back. Then you need to be able to say, okay, well, I want to hire higher. A higher, you know, title. I want to, you know, work from home. More things like that.
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Carol (Interviewer)
Batna page 72 of the new book Batna Batna. Maybe Future Rich Person the new rules for building Wealth. Even if you're stuck, broke, and that billionaire won't text you back. Haley Sachs is the author, probably better known as Mrs. Dow Jones.
- [19:27]
Indiana University Announcer
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- [20:11]
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