NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte Talks Getting NATO Into 'Better Shape'

Summary

Podcast Summary: NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte Talks Getting NATO Into 'Better Shape'

Podcast: Bloomberg Talks
Date: June 24, 2026
Host: Bloomberg News
Guest: Jens Stoltenberg, NATO Secretary General
Main Theme: An in-depth discussion with NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg following his meeting with President Trump, focusing on the state of NATO, defense spending, the Ukraine war, and the future direction of the alliance.

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Episode Overview

This episode features NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg reflecting on his high-level Oval Office meeting with President Trump. The conversation explores NATO's evolving strategy, robust increases in defense spending, the ongoing war in Ukraine, and the need for transatlantic defense industrial revitalization. Stoltenberg provides insight into NATO's internal dynamics, military readiness, and the crucial role of US-European cooperation.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. US-NATO Relations: Post-Oval Office Reflections

• Stoltenberg acknowledges Trump’s influence:
  • "Fairness dictates that this president is really doing a huge amount of work to get NATO in better shape." [00:56]
  • Highlights Trump’s success in securing the 5% defense spending commitment in The Hague.
• Dramatic Increase in Allies' Defense Spending:
  • European and Canadian NATO members increased spending by nearly 20% in 2025, driven by both Russian aggression and strong US pressure.
    • "Spending almost 20% more means... allies are now delivering. Take Germany spending twice as much in 2029 that it did in 2021." [02:08]

2. NATO Defense Spending: Meeting and Delivering on Promises

• Absorption Capacity Limits:
  • Stoltenberg notes practical limitations: "You can only each year on year spend so much more because you have to find and hire and contract the men and women in uniform." [02:08]
• Long-term commitment and immediate delivery:
  • Emphasizes that real spending increases are already happening; not just future targets.

3. Ukraine War Update & NATO's Strategic Response

• Battlefield Successes:
  • Stoltenberg reports Ukraine is "doing much better" on the battlefield.
    • "In five weeks, Russia is now losing what the United States lost in 14 years in Vietnam." [03:26]
• Risks of Ukrainian Long-Range Strikes:
  • Allies are aware of escalation risks, but Stoltenberg defends Ukrainian actions as "only fair" self-defense given Russian aggression. [04:57]
  • Ukraine’s innovation: "They are extremely successful in constantly updating the drone technology and the anti-drone technology, staying ahead of the Russians." [04:57]

4. Handling Trump: The "Playbook"

• Stoltenberg’s approach:
  • Confirms a strategy of coming equipped with data and stories that resonate with Trump:
    • "What I believe is to be fair, when leadership is successful, his leadership is successful." [06:02]
  • Defines three key elements of recent NATO success:
    • Iran's degraded nuclear capability
    • 5% defense spending delivered, not just committed
    • US leadership as "leader of the free world," especially in major summits like Ankara

5. Burden-Sharing and Shift toward NATO 3.0

• Transition in Command Structure:
  • "Europeans are taking over more and more of that leadership role... over the next 18 to 24 months move from American generals and admirals to European generals and admirals." [07:38]
• US Focus on Multiple Fronts:
  • Acknowledges American military focus is divided between Europe and the Indo-Pacific.
• Nuclear and Conventional Deterrence:
  • US remains the core of both, but Europe increasingly steps up.

6. Article 5 and the Guarantee of US Protection

• Stoltenberg on Article 5:
  • Refuses to quote Trump directly but unequivocally expresses certainty in US commitment.
    • "Article 5 is there to protect the whole of the alliance. And the US is not only involved in NATO to protect Europe. NATO is also there to protect the United States." [10:36]
• Mutual Security Benefits:
  • Details strategic reasons for US presence in Europe, such as deterrence against Russian nuclear submarines.

7. The Turkey Question and Patriot Missiles

• On US-Turkey Defense Deals:
  • Stoltenberg remains neutral on specifics: "For me, one thing is crucial, keeping the alliance together, making sure we are as strong as possible." [12:14]
• Patriot & Air Defense Needs:
  • Active discussions among allies on Patriots and the urgent need for increased production for Ukraine and NATO.
    • "We need everything to ramp up the production... our stockpiles are in a good position so we can defend ourselves." [14:07]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump’s impact:

  • "Fairness dictates that this president is really doing a huge amount of work to get NATO in better shape."
    (Jens Stoltenberg, 00:56)

• On Ukraine casualties:

  • "Russia is now losing in five weeks what the United States lost in 14 years in Vietnam."
    (Jens Stoltenberg, 03:26)

• On NATO 3.0:

  • "This is NATO 3.0. A stronger European, a stronger NATO... Europeans are taking over more and more of that leadership role."
    (Jens Stoltenberg, 07:38)

• On Article 5:

  • "Article 5 is there to protect the whole of the alliance. And the US is not only involved in NATO to protect Europe. NATO is also there to protect the United States."
    (Jens Stoltenberg, 10:36)

• On defense industrial production:

  • "There is also from a purely commercial perspective for defense industrial companies reason to ramp up production because the demand is there and the money is there."
    (Jens Stoltenberg, 14:07)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [00:56] – Stoltenberg reflects on Trump’s positive effect on NATO spending
• [02:08] – Discussion of the limitations and successes of rapid defense spending increases
• [03:26] – Ukrainian battlefield updates and Russian casualties
• [04:57] – On the legitimacy and risk of Ukrainian long-range strikes
• [06:02] – Stoltenberg’s approach to engaging President Trump
• [07:38] – Europe’s growing military leadership and NATO 3.0
• [10:36] – Reassurance of US commitment to Article 5 security guarantees
• [12:14] – Stoltenberg’s neutrality on US-Turkey arms deals
• [13:04] – Urgent need for ramped-up Patriot missile and defense system production
• [14:07] – Broader need for increased defense industrial output across all armaments

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Podcast Tone

Stoltenberg speaks in a diplomatic, fact-based, and occasionally urgent tone, underscoring the seriousness of NATO’s challenges while emphasizing transparency, alliance unity, and shared burden. The hosts repeatedly push for specifics, seeking clarity on US commitments and alliance resilience amidst ongoing global conflicts.

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Summary prepared for listeners seeking a concise, comprehensive recap of the episode's substantive discussions, strategy pivots, and memorable exchanges.

Transcript

[Indiana University Announcer]

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[Bloomberg Host]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News following his meeting moments ago in the Oval Office with President Trump is NATO's Secretary General Mark Ruta. Mr. Secretary General, welcome back to Bloomberg TV and Radio. It means a lot to take your time. What I know is a very busy day. Absolutely. We saw you in there. We were watching the whole back and forth with yourself, the president and a gaggle of reporters in the Oval Office. You had everything from whiteboards to stats to make the argument to President Trump. Did you manage to soften some of the edges when it comes to Trump and the alliance?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

Well, I mean, what I think is important is to be fair and fairness dictates that this president is really doing a huge amount of work to get NATO in better shape. He had a big success last year in the Hague with the 5% spending commitment. But what I wanted to show to him tonight is that over the last 10 years since Trump 45 and now Trump 47, we see this staggering increase on European and Canadian allies spending more, but also when it comes to the year on year increase from 47 in 2025, almost 20% more spending, which is of course because of Russia and the threat and the war in Ukraine, but also very much because this president is, is quite forcefully encouraging allies to spend more. And I think it is fair to share that with him.

[Bloomberg Interviewer]

Well, and Mr. Secretary General, it's not just the president, it's others in his administration as well. The defense Secretary, Pete Hegseth, said in Brussels recently that the US Would stop paying NATO dues if the allies don't meet spending targets. In your understanding, is this just the long term, 5% target that matters or has has this administration set out to you that there needs to be more interim goals met in the short term?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

Well, what we are seeing already with almost 20% increase that you are reaching the max in terms of absorption capacity. You can only each year on year spend so much more because you have to find and hire and contract the men and women in uniform. And obviously you have to work very hard and the US Is doing that. Europe is doing that on expanding the output of the defense industrial base, which at the moment on both sides of the Atlantic is simply not producing enough. So the president is now meeting with the bosses of the big defense industrial companies in the United States to Again, make that argument. But then given that background, spending almost 20% more means that he not only got a promise in the Hague, but that allies are now delivering. Take Germany spending twice as much in 2029 that it did in 2021, more than 150 billion by 2029. These are really big numbers and a great success.

[Bloomberg Host]

I want to ask you about Ukraine, Secretary General, and what you heard from President Trump today. It was shocking for a lot of people to see massive black clouds of smoke pluming over St. Petersburg. We know that Ukraine is reaching deeper into Russian territory and making remarkable use of its advanced drone technology. Does President Trump believe Ukraine can win this war militarily?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

Well, let me not speak for President Trump, because I think he should do that himself. But obviously we discussed Ukraine and you heard this also in the public part of the meeting with the media in the Oval Office that he acknowledged that Ukraine is doing well on the battlefield, is doing well in terms of hitting some of the critical infrastructure in Russia. I really think that over the last three to six months Ukraine is doing much better. And when you look at the amount of Russians getting killed or seriously wounded, we are now reaching numbers of 30 to 35,000. When you look at the war in Vietnam, in 14 years the United States lost, Russia is now losing in five weeks what the United States lost in 14 years in Vietnam. Russia is losing now in three weeks what traditions lost in 10 years in Afghanistan in the 1980s. These are staggering numbers. So as you saw in the public part of the meeting, the president very much acknowledging the fact that Ukraine, the Ukrainians are doing so much better also thanks to US Support which is there, paid for by the European and Canadian allies and other key help the US Is providing.

[Bloomberg Interviewer]

Well, as we consider what Ukraine has been able to accomplish in the longer range strikes we are seeing into Russian territory. Secretary General, have any of the NATO allies expressed some concern about that, the idea that it could spark further Russian retaliation and rope NATO countries into it?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

Well, I think we should start by seeing what happened in 2022, by the way, in 2014 when they grabbed Crimea and then in February 2022 when they started to full onslaught on Ukraine. This was unprovoked. There was absolutely no reason for the Russians to do this. So it's only fair for Ukraine to be able to defend itself. And they do this with help from the west, but also because of their own ingenuity, they are extremely successful in constantly updating the Drelon technology and the anti Dr. Long technology, staying ahead of the Russians. And therefore really being successful on the battlefield

[Bloomberg Host]

now it's really something. We watched you very closely in the Oval Office today, Secretary General. This went on for quite some time, and it was not your first visit, of course, with President Trump. Do you have the playbook now? Did you cook up the recipe? You show up with the goods, a whiteboard, the stats and a story that the President wants to hear, and you might be able to advance your cause.

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

You know, what I believe is to be fair, when leadership is successful, his leadership is successful. And what I wanted to show today is the successful in three ways. One, on Iran, a degraded nuclear capability to a NATO, not only getting the allies to deliver to, to, to commit to 5% defense spending, but also to deliver on the spending. And that's clearly what is happening at the moment. And third, by taking that, that code, that mantle of being the leader of the free world. And when he meets in Ankara, he will meet with all the allies, but also 10 countries there as guests from the Middle east, from the Indo Pacific, a total combined GDP of 77 0, $70 trillion, two and a half the size of, of the United States. Absolutely there to hear his views to, to, to get his thoughts on the next steps we collectively have to take.

[Bloomberg Interviewer]

Well, of course, the financial aspect of this and the investments into the defense industrial base are one part of it, Mr. Secretary General, but there's also the consideration of actual human capital and US Military forces that are currently stationed all around Europe. Obviously, we have now seen withdrawals and considerations this administration is making about moving troops around further. How do you avoid anything being chaotic in nature as that plays out? And how does Europe make sure that it's able to adequately defend himself itself in a, in a surprise scenario? What are those preparations like?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

I think the United States is doing that. So let's first agree that the United States has to take care of multiple theaters, not only Europe, also for example, the Indo Pacific. And if a situation would occur where they have to defend both sides of the equation, both the Indo Pacific and Europe, they have to avoid a situation in which they have spread their resources too thinly. This is why Europeans have to step up. This is NATO 3.0. A stronger European, a stronger NATO. That means that the US will stay involved when it comes to the nuclear umbrella, but also when it comes to the conventional. But over time, what you now will see, and this is a structured process, is that the Europeans are taking over more and more of that leadership role. For example, when it comes to the three combatant commands, they will over the next 18 to 24 months move from American generals and admirals to European generals and admirals. So that's, that's also a example of Europeans stepping up, but also when it comes to Ukraine, the fact that the US Is still providing all the support, but paid for by Europeans and Canada, which is only fair. So Europe stepping up, the US Staying heavily involved when it comes to the Convention on Nuclear Deterrence in Europe.

[Bloomberg Host]

President's had a lot to say about NATO's lack of involvement in the Strait of Hormuz. Did that come up today? Did he have a message for you on this or is he moving on?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

Now, you have seen this in the public part, and I know there is disappointment. And the point I wanted to make is that the disappointment has to do with a couple of isolated cases. Yes, they are there. I understand the disappointment. But when you look at your overall picture of European nations living up to their bilateral basing, basing agreements with the United States. So this is not NATO. These are bilateral agreements, but obviously they are all allies. When you look at that, what you see is between the end of February, when the war started on 28 February, until the cease fire mid April, that between 4,000 and 5,000 US planes taking off from European bases. This is Europe as one big power protection platform for.

[Bloomberg Host]

The president know that before you told him?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

I guess so, yes. He knows all these numbers, but I think it is fair to also point out to that, that fact.

[Bloomberg Host]

Yeah.

[Bloomberg Interviewer]

Well, as we consider the different facts and figures here, Mr. Secretary General, when we consider the actual articles that, that bind together the NAITO alliance, including Article 5, I know before you came over to speak with us, you were speaking with a number of reporters and you told them that you are absolutely certain that the US Would protect Europe if necessary. Is that just a certainty that you feel the US would abide by Article 5? Or did the President say that to you directly? Did he verbally reaffirm that commitment?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

Again, I will never in my role as Secretary General, disclose what we discussed between, between closed doors. But let me say this. Article 5 is there to protect the whole of the alliance. And the US is not only involved in NATO's to protect Europe. NATO is also there to protect the United States. You have seen Jonas Stirrer, the Prime Minister of Norway, visiting the White House in April last year and showing those charts with these huge Russian nuclear submarines just over the border from Norway in these big Russian ports. And he explained to the President, these submarines are not there to attack Norway. They are there to attack the United States and prevent these submarines from to become a threat to the United States. We have the alliance working together, making sure that these submarines are not capable of reaching the shores on this side of the Atlantic. And then when it comes to Europe as such, the fact that the US Is so heavily involved in Europe also gives the United States the ability to do long range strikes, the ability to control critical choke points, the ability to have industrial depth when it comes to defense industrial production. So there are many reasons why the US Is involved, not only to protect Europe, but also because the defense of the US Mainland is involved here.

[Bloomberg Host]

The President has some nice things to say about Turkey and President Erdogan in the Oval Office today. And of course we had pretty big news. It was a market moving headline. The President announcing is sending more engines, aircraft engines to Turkey despite objections from some in Congress. Secretary Generalist, is this the right move right now?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

I never comment about these bilateral decisions. So you have to understand, when there are discussions between allies, you will see me going mute and then trying to help behind the scenes. When decisions are being made between allies. When it comes to specific defense industrial decisions, I'm always staying out of debt, of course, taking note. For me, one thing is crucial, keeping the alliance together, making sure we are as strong as possible. And the United States is providing the leadership and the defense industrial output and the encouragement to make sure we stay strong.

[Bloomberg Interviewer]

Well, and understanding your reluctance to talk about specific defense systems between countries, can you shed some light as to whether there is a conversation happening amongst all of the allies about increasing the supply of Patriots, specifically? What is the nature of those conversations?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

Well, that's a crucial conversation because the Patriots missiles, the PAC3 missiles, are crucial when it comes to the Patriot systems to be maximum effective, obviously. And what we are seeing at the moment is that Ukraine needs them to protect their cities, to protect their critical infrastructure. The Russians are not able to advance on the front line. They are losing a lot of Russians, as we discussed already in this interview. But obviously there is still a threat from Russia when it comes to cities and the critical infrastructure in Ukraine. So that's one reason why we need to ramp up Patriot missile production. There is close cooperation between companies in the United States and companies in Europe to help with that production. So a lot is going on. I guess the meeting the President is now having with the big defense industry companies will also partly be about the Patriots, but also the other defense industry output of the United States. So yes, this is absolutely being discussed and it is very important.

[Bloomberg Host]

This is what you need most now the interceptors for Patriots fads. Are there others?

[NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg]

Secretary of course we also need long range ammunition. We need, we need everything to ramp up the production of everything. The good news is that our stockpiles are are in a good position so we can defend ourselves. But with the war in Ukraine and the war in the Middle east, obviously we have to make sure that we keep that production going. And with all the money coming in. There is also a from a purely commercial perspective for defense industrial companies that for reason to ramp up production because the demand is there and the money is there, both in the US and in Europe and Canada.

[Bloomberg Host]

NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte we thank you so much, Secretary General. We'd love to follow up after the summit in Ankara. Thank you for being so generous with your time.

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