Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro Talks Trump Makes It Harder to Produce Energy

Summary

Bloomberg Talks Podcast Summary

Episode: Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro Talks Trump Makes It Harder to Produce Energy
Date: September 22, 2025
Host: Joe Matthew (Bloomberg)
Guest: Governor Josh Shapiro (Pennsylvania)
Interviewer: Tyler Kendall (Bloomberg)
Theme: Challenges and Opportunities in U.S. Energy Policy—Focus on Pennsylvania’s Power, PJM Reforms, Big Tech Demand, and Federal Policy Impact

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro discusses the urgent need for reform of the PJM Interconnection power grid, the impact of big tech and data center energy demand, and how recent federal policies—especially under President Trump—are complicating efforts to expand energy production and attract top tech talent. The conversation links issues of consumer cost, innovation, job creation, state autonomy, and federal influence in the evolving U.S. energy landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. PJM Interconnection and the Need for Reform

• The PJM Interconnection is the U.S.’s largest power grid operator, serving 13 states and 67 million customers.
• Shapiro criticizes PJM’s opaque processes ("black box") and slow pace, stating it directly leads to higher energy costs for consumers and hampers swift energy generation.

Notable Quotes:

• “PJM has kind of been a black box for too many years... they are raising costs at really an alarming rate.”
  (D, 01:35)

2. State Autonomy—Will Pennsylvania Leave PJM?

• Shapiro threatens that Pennsylvania, as the nation’s second-largest energy producer, is willing to leave PJM if real reforms aren’t enacted to give states greater say and reduce consumer costs.
• The governor references a successful lawsuit where Pennsylvania blocked PJM from raising rates nearly $20 billion for consumers.

Notable Quotes:

• "If PJM is not willing to... really reform itself, then I'm willing to go my own way and Pennsylvania can stand alone in this effort."
  (D, 02:56)
• "I've already sued PJM... We won that suit, and we were able to save consumers nearly $20 billion in added costs."
  (D, 04:09)

3. Big Tech, Data Centers, and Energy Demand

• Pennsylvania has secured a $20 billion Amazon investment for new data centers, driving huge additional electricity needs.
• Shapiro asserts Pennsylvania can both keep residential costs down and meet business demand—if PJM allows for faster progress.
• He highlights projects transforming old coal plants to natural gas, emphasizing innovation and environmental improvement.

Notable Quotes:

• "We can walk and chew gum here in our commonwealth... Economic development in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is directly, directly tied to energy generation, which is also directly tied to keeping consumer costs down. We need to do all of it. We need to do it quickly."
  (D, 05:08–06:36)

4. How Big Tech Pays and Partners

• Shapiro insists tech companies must either invest in new energy sources or pay fully for the energy consumed: "Making sure that they invest in creating new energy or paying for the energy they use on the grid."
  (D, 06:48)

5. Federal Policies & President Trump's Impact

• Trump’s latest moves (blocking approval of new solar/wind projects, cutting clean energy tax credits, and raising H1B visa fees) are making it much more difficult for states like Pennsylvania.
• Shapiro says these federal-level actions threaten to cost tens of thousands of local jobs, stifle economic opportunity, and limit the state’s ability to attract top tech talent and innovation.
• He criticizes the administration's "all but fossil" approach and immigration policies for isolating America and driving up costs.

Notable Quotes:

• "The President's actions are making it harder for us here in Pennsylvania... the president is putting 26,000 Pennsylvania jobs, mostly union trade jobs, at risk of being lost when these projects shut down."
  (D, 07:26)
• "I think the President's immigration policies are making it harder for us to compete... what the President's doing is harming America, isolating America and making it harder for workers here in Pennsylvania, from our farmlands to our universities."
  (D, 08:54–09:37)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On State Preparedness:
  "Pennsylvania can stand alone in this effort. We can produce enough energy for us, and we can produce enough energy at a far quicker rate than PJM is able to right now." — Gov. Shapiro (02:58)
• On Federal Obstruction:
  "I don't know why [the President] is taking these steps that are making it harder for us in Pennsylvania. I'm a governor that wants to unleash our full potential... I think the president's policies are misguided." (07:55)
• On Workforce & Immigration:
  "When we can't attract great talent to be able to produce our food or to be able to produce the next major invention... that makes us less competitive as a nation." (08:57)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Discussion Begins, PJM Reform Overview: 01:23–02:27
• Will Pennsylvania Leave PJM?: 02:28–03:57
• Amazon Investment & Data Center Energy Demand: 04:42–06:38
• Big Tech Paying for Energy, Policy Mechanics: 06:38–07:04
• Trump’s Policies on Renewables & Jobs Impact: 07:04–08:23
• On Immigration Policy & Tech Workforce: 08:23–09:40

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Tone & Language

Governor Shapiro’s tone is direct, urgent, and pragmatic, positioning himself as a business-friendly, innovation-driven leader but firmly critical of federal obstruction that, in his view, hinders economic and technological progress.

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Summary in Short

This episode presents Governor Josh Shapiro’s forceful argument for urgently modernizing energy policy, both in Pennsylvania and the broader U.S.—with a focus on empowering states, reforming legacy power grid structures, harnessing tech sector growth, and pushing back against recent federal moves that he believes are costing jobs, raising prices, and undermining America’s competitive edge.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio.

[C]

I'm Joe Matthew in Washington. Thanks for being with us here on Bloomberg TV and radio. Indeed, as we consider the Nvidia story today, $100 billion investment, open AI and it immediately raises questions about energy. The demand for clean, renewable energy to power so many of these projects and data centers that are sprouting out of the earth like weeds energy and securing more of it was a big part of the conversation earlier today with the governor of Pennsylvania, Josh Shapiro. The Democrat spent some time with Bloomberg's Tyler Kendall as he attended a 13 state summit to discuss the future of the PJM Interconnection. This is the biggest power grid operator in the United States, not just in the region, serving over 67 million customers, stretching from Chicago to New Jersey. It's a lot of power. It's the first conference here, gathering the 13 states. And Tyler started by asking Governor Shapiro about prices and steps that can be taken to lower the cost of energy. Let's listen.

[D]

We're here in Philadelphia, which is not only the birthplace of democracy was here that PJM started 98 years ago. And I think this conversation that we're having right here at the National Constitution center is really the first of its kind opportunity for people from all 13 states, from all the different entities that make up PJM are here to have a conversation on how we can enact real reform so we can hold down costs and increase power generation and give states, the governors and representatives of our states, more of a say in the process. PJM has kind of been a black box for too many years and as a result of that, they're too darn slow and they are raising costs at really an alarming rate. And so I think what you're going to hear from all the different states today, by the way, led by Democrats and Republicans, is a desire to see real reform at pjm. I just kicked off the conference here and I think folks are ready for a good and honest and spirited discussion about how we fix PJM going forward.

[E]

Well, Governor, since you referenced your opening remarks, you said that if PJM refuses to change, we will be forced to go in a different direction. Do you mean leave pjm?

[D]

We're willing to, if PJM is unwilling to enact real reforms, to give governors and our representatives more of a seat at the table and A say in these policies so we can both control costs and increase power generation. Listen, I'm an all of the above energy governor overseeing a state that's the second largest energy producer in this country. We need to produce more energy as a nation to give us more economic opportunity and more freedom. And because of pjm, we've been stymied in our efforts. It has slowed us down, and at the same time, it's slowing us down. It's increasing costs. So if PJM is not willing to look in the mirror and really reform itself, then I'm willing to go my own way and Pennsylvania can stand alone in this effort. We can produce enough energy for us, and we can produce enough energy at a far quicker rate than PJM is able to right now. We recognize that that would have a significant impact on these 13 states that make up PJM or the 12 other states, I should say, as well as the entire nation, just given the energy dominant position we're standing in. So our first hope is that there'd be real reform. But mark my words, if they're unwilling to do real reform, we're willing to go it alone.

[E]

Well, when would you make that decision? Do you have a timeline or a deadline that you're giving PJM to respond to the change that you want to see?

[D]

Well, look, I've. I've already sued PJM successfully when they tried to jack up rates on Pennsylvania consumers and other consumers in the PJM grid area. We won that suit, and we were able to save consumers nearly $20 billion in added costs. Today. We've just embarked on this important reform conversation. I want to see how that goes. I'm not giving them a long leash here, but I want to give them some time to see if they're willing to reform. If make clear that they're unwilling to reform, they're going to keep doing it their own way, then we're going to have to go our own way.

[E]

And Governor, we know part of this conversation has to do with the power consumption related to big tech and artificial intelligence. Your state has secured a $20 billion investment pledge from Amazon for data centers as one example. How much pain do you think US consumers are going to be willing to bear here when it comes to. To the need to invest in this critical technology?

[D]

Well, we have the capacity to be able to do both here in Pennsylvania at affordable rates. You know, we can walk and chew gum here in our commonwealth. We can allow a consumer in their home to be able to flip the switch on and not see added costs when the lights go on in their home. And to know that the lights are going to go on on the hottest days of summer and the coldest days of winter. At the same time, we can be open for business and land is, as you noted, you know, an initial $20 billion investment from us to build out data centers. We've got other major economic development announcements that are on the way. And I think energy is a critically important component to any of these big energy deals. What we're doing here in Pennsylvania is turning on energy sources like we did at the old Three Mile Island. We're converting old coal fired power plants into natural gas run power plants which cleaner and are now able to produce new energy onto the grid. The problem is we're moving quickly in Pennsylvania, but PJM too oftentimes is slowing us up. I no longer want to be constrained by PJ M moving not at the speed of business, but too darn slow. If they can't move quickly, if they can't reform themselves, we're going to figure out how to do this on our own. Economic development in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is directly, directly tied to energy generation, which is also directly tied to keeping consumer costs down. We need to do all of it. We need to do it quickly.

[E]

And Governor, big tech companies say that they want to pay their fair share when it comes to this. What would that look like in practice?

[D]

Well, making sure that they invest in creating new energy or paying for the energy they use on the grid. If the grid has capacity for both them and consumers and other businesses, that's certainly the kind of deals that we negotiate here in Pennsylvania.

[E]

And Governor, in the final minutes that we have with you, President Trump last month said that his administration will not approve solar or wind power projects. This is part of a bid to tighten the federal permitting process around renewables. Has this changed your strategy in Pennsylvania with is a top energy producing state?

[D]

Well, look, I'm an all of the above energy governor. I wish the President was an all of the above energy present. The President's actions are making it harder for us here in Pennsylvania. In fact, as a result of cutting a bunch of tax credits for clean energy projects, the president is putting 26,000 Pennsylvania jobs, mostly union trade jobs, at risk of being lost when these projects shut down. I mean, I don't know why he's trying to make it harder for us to generate energy. We should generate solar and wind energy, natural gas energy and other nuclear and other forms of energy. I don't know why he's taking these steps that are Making it harder for us in Pennsylvania. I'm a governor that wants to unleash our full potential. We do that by having a full range of energy options available. I think the president's policies are misguided. It's going to put people out of work and it's going to make it harder for Pennsylvania to compete.

[E]

And lastly, Governor, just sticking on the President's policies because part of the conversation when we are talking about energy production does have to do with the workforce. And we saw over the weekend the administration moved to impose a $100,000 fee for H1B visa applicants. I'm wondering if you see this first impacting any of the sectors that we're talking about here, particularly around tech. As Pennsylvania wants to attract those, those workers and those investments from these big companies.

[D]

I think the President's immigration policies are making it harder for us to compete. And I hear that on our farmlands in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, all the way to our universities here in Pennsylvania, when we can't attract great talent to be able to produce our food or to be able to produce the next major invention or innovation that makes us less competitive as a nation. The president's immigration policies combined with his tariff policies are making it harder for us to compete and driving up the cost of goods in this commonwealth and across this country. I think what the President's doing is harming America, isolating America and making it harder for workers here in Pennsylvania, from our farmlands to our universities.

[C]

Governor Josh Shapiro, Democrat from Pennsylvania, in conversation with Tyler Kendall, Indiana University is.

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