Pershing Square Founder & CEO Bill Ackman Talks Succession, Universal Music Bid and Mamdani

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Bloomberg Talks

Guest: Bill Ackman (Founder & CEO, Pershing Square)
Host: Dani Berger
Date: May 4, 2026
Episode Focus: Ackman’s strategy at Pershing Square, Universal Music bid, key man risk, market trends, and New York City policy.

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Overview

In this episode, Dani Berger interviews Bill Ackman at the Global Milken Conference, diving deep into his current initiatives as Pershing Square expands its portfolio and ambitions to emulate a “mini Berkshire Hathaway.” The conversation covers Ackman’s approach to risk and succession, the high-profile bid for Universal Music Group, the state of European vs. U.S. stock markets, the “casino-ification” of financial markets, and his views on recent political changes in New York City. The discussion concludes with Ackman’s advocacy for broader retirement investment in America.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pershing Square’s Evolution & Ackman’s Focus

(00:36–02:44)

• Diversification & Structure

  • Ackman details the transformation of Pershing Square into a multifaceted business: equity funds, asset manager, and a real estate company.
  • He compares the structure to a “mini Berkshire Hathaway” (00:36–00:55).

• IPO Reception & Retail Strategy

  • Ackman explains the recent IPO’s drop was partly due to an uncommon retail-heavy allocation strategy:

    “We give the retail investors what they ask for and we cut the institutions back… retail investors woke up with more shares than they had intended... put in a forced selling position.” (01:21–01:54)

  • Asserts confidence that the market will correct once the initial churn subsides.
  • Describes Pershing as a “royalty on compounding,” highlighting the permanent capital vehicles:

    “All I have to do is focus on generating returns… it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy as long as we do a good job allocating the money.” (02:22–02:44)

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2. Key Man Risk & Succession at Pershing Square

(02:44–05:03)

• Unique Approach to Key Man Risk

  • Ackman challenges the notion that Pershing is reliant solely on him:

    “We have the least key man risk of any hedge fund in the world... the assets are in these public corporations where the money can't leave.” (03:06–03:34)

  • Highlights the stability and longevity of the core team, including CIO Ryan Israel and firm president Ben Hakim.
  • Emphasizes equity sharing and low turnover, suggesting institutional resilience:

    “If something happened to me, the money stays, the team stays... the board would just hire a new team or put the assets in an index fund.” (03:34–04:29)

• Succession Planning

  • Succession is “effectively set up,” with Israel leading investments and Hakim running operations.
  • Ackman reserves his involvement for big ideas:

    “I have the privilege of thinking about big ideas and occasionally... drive some value.” (04:42–05:03)

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3. Universal Music Group Bid

(05:03–07:06)

• Strategic Rationale

  • Ackman clarifies the plan is to align with Universal’s controlling shareholder (Bolloré Group), not oppose them.
  • The company is underperforming in market value despite solid core operations:

    “Universal remains the dominant company... but they've not graduated from operating like a private company into being a public company… the result is a stock that trades at the same price as five years ago.” (05:16–06:00)

• Proposed Changes

  • Move Universal from Amsterdam to a U.S. exchange—unlocking value.
  • Monetize non-core assets (Spotify stake), enhance buybacks, refresh the board (Mike Ovitz), and improve investor communications.
  • Ackman is optimistic about shareholder receptiveness:

    “The company has to do something. This is a very good solution to the various issues.” (07:09–07:15)

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4. European vs. U.S. Exchanges

(07:15–08:03)

• Liquidity and Listing Advantages
  • Ackman asserts companies unlock value listing in the U.S. due to greater demand and liquidity:

    “If you're not listed in a market with the most demand, your cost of capital is going to be higher than it should be.” (07:30–07:42)

  • Suggests European exchanges are fragmented and would benefit from consolidation.

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5. Betting Markets & Casino-ification of Finance

(08:03–09:50)

• Pros and Cons of Betting Markets

  • Ackman sees both societal risk (“net loss” due to gambling and losses, especially for young people) and informational value (hedging and prediction):

    “There are people, particularly young people, losing money they can't afford to lose betting on things that are difficult to predict.” (08:22–08:41)

  • Addresses transparency debates regarding betting markets and insider trading.

• Short-Termism

  • Warns that the increasing “casino-like” atmosphere could undermine confidence:

    “The more the market becomes casino-like... people get, they withdraw capital because they lose confidence.” (09:18–09:50)

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6. New York City’s Political Climate and Policy

(09:50–12:17)

• Concerns Over Mayor Mamdani’s Populism

  • Ackman criticizes policies targeting wealthy residents and business leaders:

    “What you don't want to do is drive out the Ken Griffins of the world. Ken brings very valuable business… and tax revenues from Wall Street are what enable New York City to have a better life.” (10:16–11:16)

  • Acknowledges his commitment to New York but underscores the risk of losing crucial economic contributors.

• Populism, Affordability, and Fiscal Consequences

  • Emphasizes that attacking high earners will not solve affordability, drawing a comparison to Argentina’s decline and recovery:

    “It's crazy to me that socialist ideas can travel into a country like this one.” (12:30–12:57)

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7. Expanding Retirement Investment Access (401ks)

(12:57–13:53)

• Broadening Capitalism Ownership
  • Ackman passionately advocates for all Americans to have retirement access to equities:

    “Every American has to own a piece of capitalism… the power of compounding allows you to save for retirement… very important for every American to participate in capitalism, or we'll end up in socialism.” (13:10–13:53)

  • Praises the president’s plan for broader retirement investment inclusion.

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Memorable Quotes

• On Key Man Risk:

  “We have the least key man risk of any hedge fund in the world... the assets are in these public corporations where the money can't leave.”
  (Bill Ackman, 03:06)

• On Universal’s Underperformance:

  “The result is a stock that trades at the same price it traded… the company first day of trading was €25. Here we are almost five years later, the stock is €19… that's not a good performance.”
  (Bill Ackman, 06:00)

• On Casino-ification of Markets:

  “There are people, and particularly young people, losing money they can't afford to lose betting on the outcome of things that are difficult to predict… it's a net loss, I think, for society.”
  (Bill Ackman, 08:22–08:41)

• On NYC Tax Policy:

  “If you drive out the Ken Griffins of the world… you’re not going to make [NYC] more affordable by getting rid of the biggest drivers of tax revenues.”
  (Bill Ackman, 11:21–11:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Pershing Square Overview & IPO Discussion: 00:36–02:44
• Key Man Risk & Succession: 02:44–05:03
• Universal Music Group Bid: 05:03–07:15
• European vs. U.S. Exchanges: 07:15–08:03
• Betting Markets & Short-Termism: 08:03–09:50
• NYC Policy & Mamdani: 09:50–12:57
• Broadening 401ks: 12:57–13:53

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Conclusion

This episode provides a high-level yet practical glimpse into Ackman’s leadership philosophies, strategic investments, and his candid takes on market structure and public policy. Through the lens of Pershing Square’s ongoing transformation, Ackman debates the essential ingredients of resilient financial organizations, the impact of global market structures, and the socioeconomic pressures affecting America’s future. For listeners, it’s a rare inside look at how one of Wall Street’s top minds navigates risk, opportunity, and public good.

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Transcript

[Indiana University Narrator]

Indiana University strengthens tomorrow's workforce with practical, real world experience. IU grads make a difference in your community, serving as teachers, nurses and engineers who rise to tomorrow's challenges and meet them. Learn more at iu.edu impact

[Bill Ackman]

Bloomberg Audio

[Dani Berger]

Studios Podcasts Radio News welcome to Bloomberg's coverage of the Global Milken Conference. I'm Dani Berger alongside Bill Ackman, founder and CEO of Pershing Square. Bill, thank you so much for sitting down.

[Bill Ackman]

Of course.

[Dani Berger]

I mean, you got to be the most busy man on Wall street right now. It's just compiling a list of what you're currently working on. You have two publicly traded equity funds now, a publicly traded asset manager, a publicly traded real estate company that you're working into transforming a mini Berkshire Hathaway, and you're running a campaign with Universal Music Group. Where. Where is your attention most focused on right now?

[Bill Ackman]

On investing. They're all related, they're all correlated. They're all part of one very small portfolio, which is why it's possible.

[Dani Berger]

It is possible. And I know you run with a slim team there, so it's always impressive. And you got this IPO out last week and we talked about it, but we talked before it started to trade. I know you don't concern yourself with a day's worth of trader or a few days, but what do you make of the reception that it got, that it did fall considerably? Is this an issue with bankers mispricing it?

[Bill Ackman]

No. I mean, we sold a pile of cash. I don't know why anyone would buy a pile of cash and then the next day sell it at a discount. What I think I didn't appreciate when we last spoke is we did something different in this offering that people don't normally do. Normally, retail investors get kind of a very small allocation and they're disappointed by the shares they get in the ipo. In our case, we give the retail investors what they ask for and we cut the institutions back. And I think the impact of that was retail investors woke up with more shares than they had intended to buy and were put in kind of a forced selling position. And that has to work its way through. I think once that's done, I mean, now again, the package of securities is modestly down from where we, we. Where we price the offering. Remember, you get an interest in a PSUs, which is either you think of it as investment holding company, you can think of it as a closed end fund. There you're getting $49 in cash that we're in the process of deploying in the market and you get an interest in our business, which is a very good business. It's a bit like a Blackstone or a kkr. But some important differences. Substantially all of our assets are in these sort of permanent capital vehicles. And so the business model itself is like owning a royalty on compounding and as we. So that's why I'll have to do is focus on generating returns. I generate returns that generates an increase in our assets, that generates more cash flow for the business. And it's a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy as long as we do a good job allocating the money.

[Dani Berger]

One of the things that's different, and I kind of hinted this the beginning from you, from the other big publicly traded asset managers, is just how slim you are. And this was brought up actually in one analysis of Pershing Square.

[Bill Ackman]

I like being slim.

[Dani Berger]

I think we all do, I think especially in this day and age. But this idea that there is key man risk because so much of it is your ideas and your ability to untrue. So yeah, so talk about that. How do you mitigate it?

[Bill Ackman]

I actually think we have the least key man risk of any hedge fund in the world. And that sounds surprising because usually you put me on, I do more TV appearances than other Pershing Square employees. But what causes a hedge fund to go out of business is something happens to a key person and then investors, the first thing they do is they ask for their money back and then the assets shrink and the rest of the team leaves. In our case, the assets are in these public corporations where the money can't leave. And so if something happened to me, the money stays, that the assets stay, the team stays. The team owns, you know, 45% of the business, right? So the, the company of equity is widely spread throughout the firm. And it's unusually about our firm in an industry where there's a lot of turnover, there hasn't been a perjury Square. So my CIO, Ryan Israel and I, we've worked together now 17 years. He's been CIO for almost four. You know, if I disappear tomorrow, nothing would really. In the early days of Pershing Square, I generated most of the ideas and I work with analysts on analyzing those ideas. Today I'm generating a minority of the ideas. So I'm not saying I'm unimportant. Hopefully I can still, you know, generate value for the firm. But the firm itself is very robust. You know, it's the only firm in the world that if something happened to all of the employees because the assets are forever. The board would just hire a new team or put the assets in an index fund and you still build a very valuable kind of business over time. So it's one of the most robust businesses in the world and it's one of the highest quality businesses in the

[Dani Berger]

world, by the way. Just, just kind of on. On a similar note as, as you know, a Warren Buffett fan. This past weekend was the first Berkshire Hathaway annual meeting where Abel was at the helm. You're obviously a young man, but have you thought at all about setting up succession, what that eventually looks like at Pershing?

[Bill Ackman]

Well, I think it's really effectively set up, you know, identified a cio. Ryan, as I mentioned, he's really leading the investment team at this point. Ben Hakim, president of firm, kind of runs everything other than the investment side of the operation. Amazing. There's anything for me to do. I have the privilege of thinking about big ideas and, you know, occasionally big idea drives some value.

[Dani Berger]

Can we talk about one of those big ideas?

[Bill Ackman]

Sure.

[Dani Berger]

In Universal Music Group.

[Bill Ackman]

Yeah.

[Dani Berger]

You come forward with an offer to buy this company and a lot of people scratch their heads. Why would you do this with a company that has very large majority shareholders where it's tough to put through? What is the game plan?

[Bill Ackman]

Actually, the, the gameplay there is absolutely. We need the support of Bolary Group. But what we're proposing I think is very much aligned with what they're interested in. I mean, Universal sort of a interesting case of a company that's done well in its core business. Right. Universal remains the dominant company in the recorded music industry. They remain a very close to being the number one company in the music publishing industry. It's done a very good job with that. But they've not sort of graduated from being operating like a private company into being a public company. And they've lost, I would say, the confidence of kind of the shareholders in the analyst community, which is why the stock, you know, the business value has grown and the multiple that people assign to the earnings of the company has declined. And the result is a stock that trades at the same price it traded. You know, the company first day of trading was €25. And this is in September of 21. Here we are almost five years later, the stock is €19, 18 years. So that's not a good performance. The company really needs a reset. It's also listed really in the wrong exchange. It's a really a US company. So our transaction moves the company from Amsterdam to a US listing. That alone is meaningfully value Creating we kind of recast the balance sheet. The company has unmonetized assets on the balance sheet. Their stake in Spotify now, notably, the company announced in the last couple of days that they're going to sell half their interest in Spotify. We think they should sell the balance. The company announced a more aggressive buyback program. We think there's an opportunity to do more. But our transaction effectively enables a cancellation of about 17% of the outstanding shares. A migration of the company here, a new board of directors led by Mike Ovitz. You know, Mike, I've known a very long time. I think it can be a very value added value operate to the operations of the company and then just a better program in terms of how the company communicates with shareholders. You know, the company right now is sort of analyzing the proposal. We'll hear back from them soon. We're, we've been engaged with the big shareholders.

[Dani Berger]

And you're hopeful that they will be receptive to this.

[Bill Ackman]

I mean, the company has to do something. This is a very good solution to the various issues that confront the company,

[Dani Berger]

by the way, on this idea of European versus US Exchanges. It feels like that is something that a lot of companies see that they can unlock that they move to U.S. exchange. On the day we talked, for example, the AstraZeneca CFO and they did something similar. Does Europe have a real problem, Bill?

[Bill Ackman]

I mean, yes. Look, the exchanges are natural monopolies. And you know, if you today, if you're not listed in a market which has the most demand, your stock, your cost of capital is going to be higher than it should be. And so there's sort of, and I think, you know, Europe has too many exchanges. What if I were in charge of Europe, I would consolidate the London Stock Exchange, Euronext, kind of bring the various exchanges because again, it's a natural monopoly and you want the maximum liquidity and demand in one in one place. But there's sort of nationalism, I think prevents that.

[Dani Berger]

One of the kind of newer features of markets is the prevalence in the explosion of betting markets. And there's this real criticism that we're seeing almost a casino vacation in the world where you can bet on anything. There are ETFs listing this week where you can bet on whether the Dems or the Republicans are going to be winning the House or the Senate. Is it a problem? Does this concern you at all, this trend?

[Bill Ackman]

I think the negative is that there's a positive negative. I think the negative is it's not the most productive activity in the world. And there is a lot of gambling that goes on, whether it's sports betting or otherwise. And there are people, and particularly young people losing money they can't afford to lose betting on the outcome of things that are difficult to predict. So that's the obviously the unfortunate split like lottery tickets, you know, it's not, it's a net loss, I think for society. On the positive side, what betting markets allow is they allow people to hedge risks that they're exposed to. It also it creates information, you know, looking at where things are priced. You know, the betting markets have done a better job of predicting outcomes of

[Dani Berger]

elections, some could say because, well, maybe not elections, but there is more insider trading that incentives exist for that to happen.

[Bill Ackman]

You know, look, the people make arguments that insider trading should not be illegal because that would bring a sort of more transparency.

[Dani Berger]

One of those people that believe that

[Bill Ackman]

I'm not, but, but you can make some arguments for it. So I think it's, it's sort of interesting. But you know, the more the market becomes casino, like I think the risk. The risk is, I guess people get, they withdraw capital because they lose confidence. And you know, I think markets becoming more and more short term. And if you think about what a stock market is, it's. These are very long term assets. So the short termism drives liquidity, which I think on the margin is a positive. But it also can lead to short termism in the way businesses are run.

[Dani Berger]

So I would love to just leave on the, on the note of, of your hometown city, New York. There's been a lot of discussion about Mayor Imam Dani making very public pronouncements against specific people, against Ken Griffin announcing a pied a terre tax, directly attacking some of the business leaders of the city. I know you were concerned heading into this election and the outcome of it too. How are you feeling now?

[Bill Ackman]

Not great about things. I mean, I think Mondami is not. If your goal is to make New York City kind of financially solvent, what you don't want to do is drive out the Ken Griffin's of the world. Right. Ken brings very valuable business that has $6 billion project which will generate, you know, thousands of construction jobs, architecture jobs, marketing jobs. Make your list employees who will pay material amounts of taxes because they're highly compensated employees. And it's that it's sort of the Wall street and, and the tax revenues from Wall street are what enable New York City kind of all the people in New York City to have a better life. And if you drive out the Ken Griffin's the world who notably, you know, has made a major contribution to New York, not just from bringing his business there, but he's been very philanthropic. $400 million donation to Morris Loan Kettering, which is an institution that doesn't just help New Yorkers, it helps people with cancer all over the world to go to go to get treated there. So it's just not, it's not a very smart approach.

[Dani Berger]

I can't think about Pershing Square without thinking about New York City. But could you ever see yourself being driven out of New York?

[Bill Ackman]

I think it's unlikely. I'm more of the Ghana guy to fight to make sure New York City is a great city than someone who's going to lead.

[Dani Berger]

The problem is though, that with these policies, even if they have dire economic consequences, Mamdani is incredibly popular and he's still very popular with his base. So how do things change then? How do you fight this tide if there still is this broad based popular support for these types of ideas?

[Bill Ackman]

It's an issue. I mean, I think the answer is a better candidate who, you know, look, Mandami was correct, is that New York is not a very affordable place to live. But you're not going to make it more affordable by getting rid of the biggest drivers of tax revenues for the city. Mondami already has a budget crisis, but we've got to figure out how to run New York City much more efficiently. But when you raise taxes, you know, the most mobile people, frankly are the Ken Griffiths of the world can can choose to locate his business wherever he wants and he can locate his Jeditaire wherever he wants.

[Dani Berger]

Very true though. We are heading into midterms and again, affordability is on the ticket and that's pushed a lot of people left. Are you worried about how this shakes out? That we might get more candidates who want to put forward these types of ideas into economic policy?

[Bill Ackman]

Yeah, look, I think you look at a country like Argentina and how far it fell, right? One of the most Argentinian GDP, whatever 100 years ago was one of the most significant countries in the world and fell off the map because of socialism and other bad policies. Now you see Malay coming back and the country dramatically recovering. It's sort of a great example. And it's crazy to me that socialist ideas can travel into a country like this one.

[Dani Berger]

I have only about 30 seconds, but I'd be remiss if I didn't ask about some of the work that you've been doing trying to make 401ks those types of of investment vehicles more broadly accessible. We had an executive action last week. What are you pushing for at this moment?

[Bill Ackman]

I think every American has to own a piece of capitalism and when you do, you're excited when the stock market goes up and it allows you power of compounding allows you to save for your retirement. You know, unfortunately wages cannot compound as fast as the stock market. And so I think it's very important for every American to participate in capitalism or, or we'll end up in socialism. And that's so I think the President's plan is a great one. You know, you have to be able to, you know, I think if you believe that you're going to be able to retire comfortably, maybe even leave something for your kids so they get a head start, you know, that makes you believe in the country and if you can't, it makes you angry. So I think a very important program,

[Dani Berger]

we're going to have to end it there. Thank you so much for joining, really appreciate your time. With that. We'll toss it back to New York. That is of course, Bill Ackman, the founder and CEO of Pershing Square.

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