Senator Rand Paul Talks Shutdown, Trump's Drug Boat Strikes and More

Summary

Bloomberg Talks

Episode: Senator Rand Paul Talks Shutdown, Trump’s Drug Boat Strikes and More

Date: October 7, 2025
Host: Bloomberg News
Guest: Senator Rand Paul (R-KY)

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Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth interview with Senator Rand Paul, who stands as a consistent outlier in the U.S. Senate for opposing both Republican and Democratic spending bills that would reopen the government amid another shutdown. Senator Paul discusses his steadfast approach to federal spending, the divisiveness over subsidies for health care, alarming new U.S. drug interdiction tactics in Venezuela, the spread of government equity stakes in private companies, and his continued support for Donald Trump despite reservations.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Last Fiscal Hawk? Shutdown and Government Spending

• Paul’s Fiscal Stance: Senator Paul reiterates his opposition to both parties’ budget proposals, critiquing rising deficits in Republican and Democratic plans alike.
  • “The Republican plan...led to about a $2 trillion deficit...the Democrats’ alternative...would be $3 trillion.” (00:39)
  • His proposed “penny plan” aims for steeper spending cuts and budget balance over five years.
• Support Among Republicans:
  • Over half of the Republican caucus joined him on a recent vote, but a persistent bloc of big-government Republicans often aligns with Democrats on spending.
  • “When I get home, I get nothing but encouragement...People at home are like, thank you for standing your ground.” (01:33)
• On “Shutdown” Rhetoric:
  • Criticizes both parties for distilling a complex debate about budgets and subsidies into simplistic, partisan talking points.
  • “A lot of people are at fault for devolving this debate down to maybe a third grade level and not really thinking it through.” (03:59)

2. Health Care and Tariffs

• Constituent Concerns:
  • The impact of tariffs on Kentucky industries (family farms, bourbon, cargo) is the primary concern he hears about locally.
  • Small businesses also struggle with health insurance costs outside of the Obamacare exchanges.
• Paul’s Market-Driven Health Solution:
  • Proposes allowing collective bargaining for health coverage via associations like Costco to leverage lower prices.
  • Warns that government subsidies contribute to national debt and inflation, undermining intended benefits.
  • “The reason you can’t just give everybody money is we don’t have the money to give to them. We have to borrow it from China.” (02:29)

3. The New Venezuela Drug Boat Strikes

• Rising Concerns Over Extrajudicial Killings:
  • Criticizes the administration’s new policy of destroying suspected drug boats near Venezuela without proper vetting.
  • “We’ve blown up four boats now...Did one of those four boats not have drug dealers on it? If they all had drug dealers on it—the first 11 they killed, what were their names? What was the evidence linking them to being part of a gang?” (06:33)
  • Warns of a dangerous precedent and possible intent to provoke a regime change.
• Call for Congressional Oversight:
  • Plans to co-sponsor a War Powers Act resolution related to U.S. strikes off Venezuela, demanding due process and legislative oversight for military action.
  • “I will co-sponsor the War Powers act later this week...the idea that you can kill someone who you don’t know their name and has had no process at all...” (08:00)

4. Government Ownership in U.S. Companies

• On Government Equity Stakes:
  • Strongly opposes the government’s growing trend of taking ownership stakes in companies like Trilogy Metals, U.S. Steel, and others.
  • Argues it’s a step toward socialism, which he fundamentally opposes.
  • “I’m not for government ownership of the means of production, but I’m also not for the government owning 10% of the means of production...Imagine what this would be like if you had Mondami as president, or AOC as president...What if she owned 10% of Exxon?” (09:34)
• Predicts Legal Challenges:
  • Suggests these policies may face challenges in court due to Congress not authorizing such equity swaps in law.

5. Paul’s View on Trump, Autocracy, and Federal Workers

• Is Trump an Autocrat?
  • Despite sharp policy disagreements, Paul stands by his support for Trump over Democrats, praising his record on taxes and business regulation.
  • “Despite my complaints...I still think he’s the best president of our lifetime. Frankly, I would vote for him a million times over...” (11:30)
• Federal Worker Back Pay:
  • Expects back pay for federal workers to be included in any shutdown resolution.
  • “It’s not a matter of will...it’ll be part of the deal...all the union workers...will get back pay.” (12:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Standing Alone in Congress:

  • “Feels that way sometimes...It is a bipartisan spending problem that we have here.” (00:39, 01:33)

• On Simplification in Washington:

  • “A lot of people are at fault for devolving this debate down to maybe a third grade level and not really thinking it through.” (03:59)

• On U.S. Drug Boat Policy:

  • “I don’t think you can have a universal Coast Guard policy of just blowing up boats before they’re interdicted.” (06:33)
  • “We can’t have a policy where we just blow up ships where we don’t even know the people’s names.” (08:00)

• On Socialism by Government Ownership:

  • “I don’t want Republicans or Democrats to own the companies. It’s a terrible idea.” (10:45)

• On Trump:

  • “I still think he’s the best president of our lifetime. Frankly, I would vote for him a million times over...” (11:30)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Senator Paul’s Fiscal Hawk Position: 00:39 – 02:14
• Health Care Policy and Tariffs: 02:14 – 03:37
• Spending Bill Negotiations and ‘Shutdown’ Rhetoric: 03:37 – 04:15
• Future of Shutdown and Political Strategy: 05:01 – 05:56
• Drug Boat Strikes and Venezuela Policy: 06:13 – 08:00
• War Powers Resolution Announcement: 08:00 – 08:56
• Government Equity Stakes in Companies: 09:08 – 11:05
• Autocracy and Trump: 11:05 – 12:02
• Federal Worker Back Pay: 12:02 – 12:18

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Conclusion

Senator Rand Paul provides a characteristically uncompromising perspective on government spending, health care, U.S. actions overseas, and the role of government in private markets—laid bare with skepticism for bipartisan compromise and a clear warning against the encroachment of state power. He stands firm as a dissenter in the Senate, defending his principles and sounding alarms on issues that span fiscal policy, executive overreach, and the limits of government intervention.

Transcript

[Indiana University Announcer]

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[Senator Rand Paul]

Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio.

[Interviewer]

News I sat down with Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, the lone Republican who has consistently voted against both Republican and Democratic spending bills that would reopen the government. He's still a no. And I started by asking him if he thinks he's the last fiscal hawk in his party.

[Senator Rand Paul]

Listen, feels that way sometimes. Yeah. You know, the way I look at the spending proposals is what amount of debt will it add up to. So the Republican plan this year, the continuing resolution, led to about a $2 trillion deficit and I look forward to see what will it do if we do the same thing next year. It's about a $2.1 trillion deficit, so it's actually worse. Now the Democrats are offering an AL alternative, but their alternative would be $3 trillion in debt. So I think neither plan is a very good plan. And so I've offered an alternative called the penny plan budget, which would take an across the board cut and balance the budget over about a five year period. It would still add some debt, but in the first year would probably be half of what they're looking at now.

[Interviewer]

I saw the penny plan that you posted on Twitter. What happens when you walk in the cloakroom and talk to your Republican colleagues, Senator? What do they tell you when you try to make your case?

[Senator Rand Paul]

Well, I think they know where I from. When we had the vote two weeks ago, 36 Republicans voted with me. So it's not like it's a minority. Over half of my caucus voted with me. Now there's still 16 big government Republicans who don't want to cut any spending and typically they work with the big government Democrats. And it is a bipartisan spending problem that we have here. But most of them, I think, wish that they could be better and stronger. But I think a lot of them think, well, I can't stake out this position, but when I get home, I get, I get nothing but encouragement. People at home are like, thank you for standing your ground. Thank you for standing up for what you said you were running on, which was balancing the budget.

[Interviewer]

Yeah. Are people at home talking to you about health care as well? The extent to which there's concern about Obamacare subsidies expiring at the end of the year? This is the talk and the President says that he's in discussions with Democrats about this is that the off Ramp.

[Senator Rand Paul]

Most of our conversations at home have been with people affected by tariffs. So the number one issue I get wherever I go in the state is tariffs are killing the family farm, tariffs are killing the bourbon industry. Tariff is killing the the cargo transport industry. So there's all kinds of talk, but mostly of tariffs on the idea of health care. I hear mostly from small businesses that are not in the Obamacare exchange but feel like they don't have the leverage to get a good price. So what I've been offering for years for people who are worried about the price of health care is I'd like to let people buy it through an entity like Costco, which has 44 million members. I'd like to make it legal for you. Just go Costco and then somebody from Costco would negotiate for 34 million members and had the leverage to drive prices down. It's that individual market of small businessmen and women who have trouble with the health insurance. Then there's the whole government subsidy part. But the reason you can't just give everybody money is we don't have the money to give to them. We have to borrow it from China. That leads to inflation. And poor people think they're getting something free on one hand, but the other hands in their pocket, stealing their paycheck with inflation.

[Interviewer]

Well, of course, you know, that's the what Chuck Schumer is calling for. And Democrats, they want to have a negotiation over these subsidies. When you hear Schumer shut down and it's almost a drinking game around here at this point, Senator, we hear that every day from Republicans who join us. Is that a disingenuous line when it comes to describing this situation? Is it more complicated than that or actually how you see it from the other side of the aisle?

[Senator Rand Paul]

I would say a lot of people are at fault for devolving this debate down to maybe a third grade level and not really thinking it through. The vote isn't on shutting government down or keeping government open. The vote is on what level of spending can you tolerate. What level of debt can you tolerate?

[Podcast Host Akshat Ratty]

Rate.

[Senator Rand Paul]

And I think there can be valid reasons. Now, the reason why I think the Democrats are less valid at this point are because 48 of them voted or 47 of them voted in December of last year for the identical bill. See, we're still living under the Biden spending levels. That's why I'm opposed to it. I voted against the Biden spending levels when they came from Democrats and when they're coming from Republicans. But these Democrats voted for the identical bill. In December of 24. They're faced with the exact same vote now, and they've changed. Why? Because they've moved the goalposts. This whole idea of Obamacare subsidies has never been a part of the continuing resolution debate. It's something the Democrats put forward is expiring because the Democrats allowed it to expire in their own legislation. So there's a bit of disingenuousness on their part.

[Interviewer]

Well, it is interesting as well. You didn't mention aoc, which usually comes with the talking points on this. And it is rich irony, Senator, that Republicans are now urging Democrats to vote on this bill that they once found toxic. And I guess this is why a lot of people have trouble understanding Washington here. What's your gut? Just before we move on, I'd like to ask you about a couple of other things. Does the government set a new record for shutdowns here? Is the president applying pressure on you?

[Senator Rand Paul]

No, I think it lasts a few more days. The Democrats are have to put on a show for their left wing. So the social swing of the party is hitting them, saying they don't stand up for, you know, government subsidies for government welfare strong enough. So I think there's a rally this weekend in Washington. The rumor is the Democrats have to put on a show through the rally. Once they've made it through the rally and the left wing doesn't come after there and eat their own, then they'll capitulate and say that they want a deal and they'll open the government.

[Interviewer]

You're still a no though, right?

[Senator Rand Paul]

Yeah, I'm a no because I've been a no against the spending levels, but I'm a no for different reasons. Not for partizan reasons, not for anything to do with Obamacare subsidies. I'm a no because both the Republican and Democrat plan offer us too much debt.

[Interviewer]

I want to ask you about what's going on in the Caribbean, Senator Rand Paul, and specifically when it comes to Venezuela, and you've been outspoken about this. You commented around fears of extrajudicial killings following the first boat we've now had for your concern about the president's actions here. Is he looking for regime change in Venezuela?

[Senator Rand Paul]

You know, I don't know. But we did discover today that the Coast Guard, when they interdict boats, it's a common thing off the coast of Miami and California. About 25% of the time, the boat that they board doesn't have drugs on it. So they have made an error, but they don't kill them. But we've Blown up four boats now. And if the percentages hold true, did one of those four boats not have drug dealers on it? If they all had drug dealers on it, you know, the first 11 they killed, what were their names? What was the evidence linking them to being part of a gang? So I think there's a lot of unknowns here and I don't think you can have a universal Coast Guard policy of just blowing up boats before they're interdicted. There's, you know, decades long history of how we board boats. We say halt, stop, we will board your boat. If they don't halt and stop, there's an escalation of use of force. But we don't just blow ships up. So there is a real problem. And yes, I think it might lead to regime change. And some of the more skeptical among us think that maybe this is a provocation to lead to real regime change, a provocation to get the Venezuelans to react so we can then insert the military. I hope that's not true.

[Interviewer]

Well, I know, I know you're very familiar with these rules as chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, and there's been a question more recently about whether there's a congressional answer to this. Would you support a War Powers act with eyes on Venezuela?

[Senator Rand Paul]

Yes, I will co sponsor the War Powers act later this week and we will be discussing this on the floor. I think it's one of the most important debates we have and the idea that you can kill someone who you don't know their name and has had no process at all. People say, oh, you're going to give due process to fentanyl killers and all of this, even in our country, 20,000 people commit murders. And as angry as we are, if it were my family, I would, you know, want to shoot them. But we still have trials because occasionally the accused is found innocent and not guilty. Occasionally we make mistakes. But we can't have a policy where we just blow up ships where we don't even know the people's names. It can't be the policy for drug interdiction either in the country or outside the country. So I will support a war resolution to say the government shouldn't be doing this.

[Interviewer]

Well, that's really, that's news, Senator, and really interesting that you're going to put your name on this. Do you have other Republicans who will support that legislation?

[Senator Rand Paul]

There will be people quietly who will say it's the right thing to do and will respect me for doing the right thing. I think most will be afraid of the Response from the White House.

[Interviewer]

President just announced a stake in Trilogy Metals. Now, this is the fourth company by my count, with a true government equity stake. There's also the golden share when it comes to US Steel. Is there any position in which you would support these moves as MP Materials? For instance, an exemption in the name of national security? Are we going down the wrong road here? You've called this a step towards socialism. Now that we have more companies, are we ever closer?

[Senator Rand Paul]

You know, I wrote a book called the Case Against Socialism. And so I'm not for government ownership of the means of production, but I'm also not for the government owning 10% of the means of production. There are all various forms and degrees of socialism. I do think that the law, also the statute that gave money to these companies, I was against it because I'm against subsidies, particularly when we have to borrow them. But the law didn't indicate any power transfer, any power to the president to say, instead of a grant, we're going to give you, we're going to have stock in your company, and that's the only way you get it. Those conditions weren't contemplated in the law, so I suspect eventually this will go to court. I've been surprised how quickly the companies have acquiesced in it, but I guess it is free money from their perspective. And when you get free money, it's hard to turn away from that. But no, I don't like it. I don't like the government sort of saying to Nvidia, hey, hey, guys, yeah, you can sell in China this year, but we want 15%. You know, we want, we want 15%. There is no legal authority to do things like that. And, you know, my problem is, imagine what this would be like if you had Mondami as president or AOC as president. There's my talking point. It came back in. If AOC were president, can you imagine what would it mean for her to own the companies? What if she owned 10% of Exxon? What if she owned 10% of the oil companies? Oh, my goodness. So I don't want Republicans or Democrats to own the companies. It's a terrible idea.

[Interviewer]

Duly noted. When you think about what we're discussing here, though, socialism with regard to government stakes in publicly traded companies. In the case of intel, you've got Trilogy Metals. Now we can talk about Tick Tock and the integrity of Congress, authoritarianism when it comes to extrajudicial killings off Venezuela. We've all done this in just 10 minutes, Senator. So is Donald Trump an autocrat?

[Senator Rand Paul]

Well, the interesting thing is, despite my complaints, despite my pushback, I still think he's the best president of our lifetime. Frankly, I would vote for him a million times over. A socialist like Harris or a president like Biden who is unable to really perform the functions of the job. But yeah, and so many things. He's for lower taxes, less regulation. He's more pro business. Doesn't mean I agree with everything. But just because I have disagreements and some of the things are big disagreements, doesn't mean that I actually, frankly, don't think he's a great president.

[Interviewer]

You think federal workers should get back pay when this ends?

[Senator Rand Paul]

They always do. It's not a matter of will. They. They. They always do. And it'll be part of the deal. The Democrats will fold within a week, but part of the deal is that all the union workers that work for the federal government will get back pay.

[Interviewer]

Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky talking with us earlier today. He remains a no vote on this day seven of the government shutdown.

[Podcast Host Akshat Ratty]

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[Interviewer]

I'm looking at what the world has.

[Senator Rand Paul]

To do to get to zero. Not using climate as a moral crusade.

[Podcast Host Akshat Ratty]

And the creative minds you haven't heard of yet. It is serious stuff, but never doom and gloom. I am Akshat Ratty. Listen to Zero every Thursday from Bloomberg podcasts on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you get your podcasts.