Senator Rand Paul (2:29)

Most of our conversations at home have been with people affected by tariffs. So the number one issue I get wherever I go in the state is tariffs are killing the family farm, tariffs are killing the bourbon industry. Tariff is killing the the cargo transport industry. So there's all kinds of talk, but mostly of tariffs on the idea of health care. I hear mostly from small businesses that are not in the Obamacare exchange but feel like they don't have the leverage to get a good price. So what I've been offering for years for people who are worried about the price of health care is I'd like to let people buy it through an entity like Costco, which has 44 million members. I'd like to make it legal for you. Just go Costco and then somebody from Costco would negotiate for 34 million members and had the leverage to drive prices down. It's that individual market of small businessmen and women who have trouble with the health insurance. Then there's the whole government subsidy part. But the reason you can't just give everybody money is we don't have the money to give to them. We have to borrow it from China. That leads to inflation. And poor people think they're getting something free on one hand, but the other hands in their pocket, stealing their paycheck with inflation.

Interviewer (3:37)

Well, of course, you know, that's the what Chuck Schumer is calling for. And Democrats, they want to have a negotiation over these subsidies. When you hear Schumer shut down and it's almost a drinking game around here at this point, Senator, we hear that every day from Republicans who join us. Is that a disingenuous line when it comes to describing this situation? Is it more complicated than that or actually how you see it from the other side of the aisle?

Senator Rand Paul (3:59)

I would say a lot of people are at fault for devolving this debate down to maybe a third grade level and not really thinking it through. The vote isn't on shutting government down or keeping government open. The vote is on what level of spending can you tolerate. What level of debt can you tolerate?

Podcast Host Akshat Ratty (4:15)

Rate.

Senator Rand Paul (4:15)

And I think there can be valid reasons. Now, the reason why I think the Democrats are less valid at this point are because 48 of them voted or 47 of them voted in December of last year for the identical bill. See, we're still living under the Biden spending levels. That's why I'm opposed to it. I voted against the Biden spending levels when they came from Democrats and when they're coming from Republicans. But these Democrats voted for the identical bill. In December of 24. They're faced with the exact same vote now, and they've changed. Why? Because they've moved the goalposts. This whole idea of Obamacare subsidies has never been a part of the continuing resolution debate. It's something the Democrats put forward is expiring because the Democrats allowed it to expire in their own legislation. So there's a bit of disingenuousness on their part.

Interviewer (5:01)

Well, it is interesting as well. You didn't mention aoc, which usually comes with the talking points on this. And it is rich irony, Senator, that Republicans are now urging Democrats to vote on this bill that they once found toxic. And I guess this is why a lot of people have trouble understanding Washington here. What's your gut? Just before we move on, I'd like to ask you about a couple of other things. Does the government set a new record for shutdowns here? Is the president applying pressure on you?

Senator Rand Paul (5:27)

No, I think it lasts a few more days. The Democrats are have to put on a show for their left wing. So the social swing of the party is hitting them, saying they don't stand up for, you know, government subsidies for government welfare strong enough. So I think there's a rally this weekend in Washington. The rumor is the Democrats have to put on a show through the rally. Once they've made it through the rally and the left wing doesn't come after there and eat their own, then they'll capitulate and say that they want a deal and they'll open the government.

Interviewer (5:56)

You're still a no though, right?

Senator Rand Paul (5:58)

Yeah, I'm a no because I've been a no against the spending levels, but I'm a no for different reasons. Not for partizan reasons, not for anything to do with Obamacare subsidies. I'm a no because both the Republican and Democrat plan offer us too much debt.

Interviewer (6:13)

I want to ask you about what's going on in the Caribbean, Senator Rand Paul, and specifically when it comes to Venezuela, and you've been outspoken about this. You commented around fears of extrajudicial killings following the first boat we've now had for your concern about the president's actions here. Is he looking for regime change in Venezuela?

Senator Rand Paul (6:33)

You know, I don't know. But we did discover today that the Coast Guard, when they interdict boats, it's a common thing off the coast of Miami and California. About 25% of the time, the boat that they board doesn't have drugs on it. So they have made an error, but they don't kill them. But we've Blown up four boats now. And if the percentages hold true, did one of those four boats not have drug dealers on it? If they all had drug dealers on it, you know, the first 11 they killed, what were their names? What was the evidence linking them to being part of a gang? So I think there's a lot of unknowns here and I don't think you can have a universal Coast Guard policy of just blowing up boats before they're interdicted. There's, you know, decades long history of how we board boats. We say halt, stop, we will board your boat. If they don't halt and stop, there's an escalation of use of force. But we don't just blow ships up. So there is a real problem. And yes, I think it might lead to regime change. And some of the more skeptical among us think that maybe this is a provocation to lead to real regime change, a provocation to get the Venezuelans to react so we can then insert the military. I hope that's not true.

Interviewer (7:47)

Well, I know, I know you're very familiar with these rules as chairman of the Senate Homeland Security Committee, and there's been a question more recently about whether there's a congressional answer to this. Would you support a War Powers act with eyes on Venezuela?

Senator Rand Paul (8:00)

Yes, I will co sponsor the War Powers act later this week and we will be discussing this on the floor. I think it's one of the most important debates we have and the idea that you can kill someone who you don't know their name and has had no process at all. People say, oh, you're going to give due process to fentanyl killers and all of this, even in our country, 20,000 people commit murders. And as angry as we are, if it were my family, I would, you know, want to shoot them. But we still have trials because occasionally the accused is found innocent and not guilty. Occasionally we make mistakes. But we can't have a policy where we just blow up ships where we don't even know the people's names. It can't be the policy for drug interdiction either in the country or outside the country. So I will support a war resolution to say the government shouldn't be doing this.

Interviewer (8:47)

Well, that's really, that's news, Senator, and really interesting that you're going to put your name on this. Do you have other Republicans who will support that legislation?

Senator Rand Paul (8:56)

There will be people quietly who will say it's the right thing to do and will respect me for doing the right thing. I think most will be afraid of the Response from the White House.

Interviewer (9:08)

President just announced a stake in Trilogy Metals. Now, this is the fourth company by my count, with a true government equity stake. There's also the golden share when it comes to US Steel. Is there any position in which you would support these moves as MP Materials? For instance, an exemption in the name of national security? Are we going down the wrong road here? You've called this a step towards socialism. Now that we have more companies, are we ever closer?

Senator Rand Paul (9:34)

You know, I wrote a book called the Case Against Socialism. And so I'm not for government ownership of the means of production, but I'm also not for the government owning 10% of the means of production. There are all various forms and degrees of socialism. I do think that the law, also the statute that gave money to these companies, I was against it because I'm against subsidies, particularly when we have to borrow them. But the law didn't indicate any power transfer, any power to the president to say, instead of a grant, we're going to give you, we're going to have stock in your company, and that's the only way you get it. Those conditions weren't contemplated in the law, so I suspect eventually this will go to court. I've been surprised how quickly the companies have acquiesced in it, but I guess it is free money from their perspective. And when you get free money, it's hard to turn away from that. But no, I don't like it. I don't like the government sort of saying to Nvidia, hey, hey, guys, yeah, you can sell in China this year, but we want 15%. You know, we want, we want 15%. There is no legal authority to do things like that. And, you know, my problem is, imagine what this would be like if you had Mondami as president or AOC as president. There's my talking point. It came back in. If AOC were president, can you imagine what would it mean for her to own the companies? What if she owned 10% of Exxon? What if she owned 10% of the oil companies? Oh, my goodness. So I don't want Republicans or Democrats to own the companies. It's a terrible idea.

Interviewer (11:05)

Duly noted. When you think about what we're discussing here, though, socialism with regard to government stakes in publicly traded companies. In the case of intel, you've got Trilogy Metals. Now we can talk about Tick Tock and the integrity of Congress, authoritarianism when it comes to extrajudicial killings off Venezuela. We've all done this in just 10 minutes, Senator. So is Donald Trump an autocrat?

Senator Rand Paul (11:30)

Well, the interesting thing is, despite my complaints, despite my pushback, I still think he's the best president of our lifetime. Frankly, I would vote for him a million times over. A socialist like Harris or a president like Biden who is unable to really perform the functions of the job. But yeah, and so many things. He's for lower taxes, less regulation. He's more pro business. Doesn't mean I agree with everything. But just because I have disagreements and some of the things are big disagreements, doesn't mean that I actually, frankly, don't think he's a great president.

Interviewer (12:02)

You think federal workers should get back pay when this ends?

Senator Rand Paul (12:06)

They always do. It's not a matter of will. They. They. They always do. And it'll be part of the deal. The Democrats will fold within a week, but part of the deal is that all the union workers that work for the federal government will get back pay.

Interviewer (12:18)

Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky talking with us earlier today. He remains a no vote on this day seven of the government shutdown.

Podcast Host Akshat Ratty (12:26)

There are two kinds of people in the world. People who think about climate change and people who are doing something about it. On the Zero podcast, we talk to both kinds of people. People you've heard of, like Bill Gates.

Interviewer (12:37)

I'm looking at what the world has.

Senator Rand Paul (12:39)

To do to get to zero. Not using climate as a moral crusade.

Podcast Host Akshat Ratty (12:44)

And the creative minds you haven't heard of yet. It is serious stuff, but never doom and gloom. I am Akshat Ratty. Listen to Zero every Thursday from Bloomberg podcasts on Apple, Spotify or anywhere else you get your podcasts.