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- [00:00]
Mark Pincus
Indiana University strengthens tomorrow's workforce with practical, real world experience. IU grads make a difference in your community, serving as teachers, nurses and engineers who rise to tomorrow's challenges and meet them. Learn more at iu. Edu Impact,
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Interviewer 1
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio news.
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Interviewer 2
We're going to stay on technology and how it continues to transform amid the AI backdrop. And it takes us to someone who's been innovating and disrupting as, and remembers all too well the boom and bust and changing landscape of the dot com era. He's best known as the founder and CEO of Zynga, the social games company that IPO'd in 2011. But he's built and invested in so much more and through every iteration of the Internet, the 90s boom and bust, the social media boom of Web 2.0 and now the era. Carol he's also a prolific investor.
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Interviewer 1
He is indeed. He's invested. You'll know these names, folks. Napster, Space X. And he had, he held onto his shares, his $38,000 seed investment in Facebook, now Metta, for about half a percentage of the would be worth many, many billions of dollars right now. A smart investment, I would say.
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Interviewer 2
We're talking about Mark Pincus. He's got a new book out and we know all this thanks to the new book. It's called Life at the Speed of Launch Products People love. Mark Pincus joins us here in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers studio. Welcome, welcome. How are you? Congrats on the book.
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Mark Pincus
Thanks, thanks. By the way, I really am happy about the memory stocks.
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Interviewer 1
Why?
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Mark Pincus
Well, for diving right into the AI trade, we are. Let's not mess around. I'd say that, that it's, it's a pretty simple trade at this point. It's a belief and either you believe that the AI infrastructure investment is going to pay off and keep playing out, in which case all of these companies are generationally undervalued. It's a generational buying opportunity. If you're getting a peg ratio of 0.3 or less or you think that it's not going to play out and then you should stay away from all of it. I'm a believer.
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Interviewer 1
You are.
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Interviewer 2
It's funny because we just spoke with Ted Oakley. He manages money for Oxbow Advisors and he sent us a bunch of stocks. And missing from there were tech names and memory names. He does own some tech, but he said the memory got too expensive. And he said, I've been doing this for decades, many decades. I remember the 1990s. We sold intel and I watched intel stock go up for the next 12 months before then it went down. So he understands these cycles. Are we in one of those cyclical moments right now?
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Mark Pincus
Well, we'll know in the future, but it'll be. It's only cyclical if these AI growth rates and numbers, if they play out, I think he would even agree that they're still undervalued.
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Interviewer 1
You know, Mark, one of the things that we're thinking, we want to get into the book and talk about life at the speed of play and what it all means, but we are curious. You have been in Silicon Valley for all of the iterations of the.
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Mark Pincus
I'm that old? No, no.
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Interviewer 1
Seasoned like a great wine. Like that's how I think it. Love talking with people who have seen cycles. Right. And can sometimes figure out the silly from the stuff that really matters. How do you like, how do we make sense? Like, we see the money going in, we see the circular financing. That makes us a little uncomfortable. We see the narrative around AI changing. I get it. Disruption. This is what happens. But help us understand, like, is this a boom cycle with no bust or is there going to be a breaking point at some point or only maybe for some.
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Mark Pincus
If I had the perfect answer, you
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Interviewer 1
wouldn't be talking to us.
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Mark Pincus
Yeah, I would have held my Meta stock too.
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Interviewer 1
You did okay. You did okay. How do you think I would say,
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Mark Pincus
look, I built a boring enterprise software company in the middle of the dot com boom. It was called support.com, but it was actually an early SaaS company. We went public on the last day of the IPO window. I'd say that then versus now. My peers and I thought it didn't make any sense. During the dot com bubble we thought it was crazy what we saw going on around us. And now my peers, my smartest friends think this makes a lot of sense. I mean, it was dark fiber then and now it's like hot GPUs. I mean it's actually being used. It was betting on a whole consumer that didn't show up or didn't show up yet. And now the investment, the infrastructure is going to enterprises who are bottom line oriented. And then it was eyeballs and now it's ARR. It's actual revenue. So it's definitely not the same. I think what we do have is extreme volatility. And I think that the volatility comes from it's hard to remember this level of growth market. And when there's this level of growth, like we've seen just this week. And today, when there is a negative data point or even absence of more positives, it starts to be run for the hills and doom and bubble. And then when we see like Micron's numbers and guidance, all of a sudden everyone's bullish again. And we're going to keep seeing that. That's my take.
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Interviewer 2
One thing that you write about in the book repeatedly is that, you know, when you get into your whole background, Wharton, Harvard Business School, going and working for some investors that are household names to the Bloomberg audience. I mean, Steve Ratner, John Malone, I mean, these are, these are legends. You are constantly saying you don't know how to code, you don't know how to write code, yet you built all these companies. What struck me about reading that was that that kind of doesn't matter now in a way that mattered when you were building all these companies that you write about. How has the idea of like OpenAI's Codex or Claude Code from Anthropic, how does that completely change the game moving forward?
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Mark Pincus
Well, if you pull the camera back and even think more broadly, like how has the game of startups just changed? And how is this another step, function change? In each chapter, the amount of capital that you needed to get going has gone down, not up. When I was starting my first company, I had to recruit these government mainframe programmers, have them learn C&HTML. And I needed a fair amount of money to convince them to quit their jobs and each of my subsequent companies. Today you don't need that, you don't need as much capital. You don't need to go and necessarily recruit a whole team of the world's best engineers. It's being democratized today. Really. There's, it's more possible than ever for somebody with an amazing idea who's willing to move on it now to really get somewhere in a far more capital efficient way.
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Interviewer 1
Yeah, I mean, I feel like we also saw that in the pandemic of people just being able to start things while they were home. I am curious about the Speed of Play, because that is on your book. Talk to us about that and the importance of it.
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Mark Pincus
Sure. So there was a lot of debate with my co author Carly, my amazing editor Hollis, on the title to the book. It was originally called Proven Better New, which We Can Get Into. But that's kind of some of the core value in the book. And I eventually said, you know, it's just, that's not the whole gist of the book. It's life at the speed of play. And that's because it's both the place that we are moving into in this AI Era. It's really. I start the book by saying that this is. Elon is the one person who's already been living his life at the speed of play. And I definitely think he's having more fun than the rest of us. Okay. He's also working harder.
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Interviewer 2
I want to push back on this because Carol and I talked about this.
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Interviewer 1
He doesn't always look like he's having fun.
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Interviewer 2
Yeah, he really. I mean, I think he's been really public about having this tortured existence and how difficult it is to be Elon Musk and the challenge that he struggled with personally, I think more so than professionally. Do you actually think he's having more fun than the rest of us?
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Mark Pincus
I do. He's got an amazing sense of humor. Every time I see him, he's joking, laughing. I was with him at a friend's house one night, and it wasn't long after he had bought Twitter. And it was basically like an hour of the best standup comedy I've ever seen. I mean, he. The way he talked about his experience of coming in to Twitter and how insane the company was, just really funny. So my point of view, whether he's having more fun, who knows? I think that what we can see. I said, maybe he's the one who solved the simulation, but what we can see is that he can almost tweet something into existence. That he said, this traffic in LA is terrible. There should be a boring company, tunneling company. And then a few months later, and a few billion dollars raised, there was. And my point is, to some degree, we all are on the brink of living a part of that. And the reason I call this Life of the Speed of Play is that, to me, what the book is really about is a product mindset. And I think that every. So many of us have an idea, but we don't know how to pursue it, or we are pursuing an idea, but the odds of success are too low. Too many. Too many founders are failing for the wrong reasons.
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Interviewer 1
So a good idea is a good idea, but that's not enough necessarily to run with something and build something that lasts for longer or has some significant impact. Correct?
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Mark Pincus
Yeah. And it might be that you have a good idea of, but it's behind some obvious mistakes that you're making. The more junior product maker or founder is, and the less experienced they are, the more likely they are to do too much new to just reinvent everything. Steve Jobs talked about this. So the point of the book is. I like to think that this book is like a cheat code that you can. Whatever it is you're doing, you can change your odds of success and getting to a hit. It's the book I wish I had early in my career.
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Interviewer 1
So is this for founders? Like, who do you think about? It sounds like it is for people who have an idea or want to run with something. Right.
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Mark Pincus
This book is. Every one of your listeners right now probably has some instinct, they have some sense. It's either a specific idea or a sense that something could be better. And the book is. The point of the book is that they should. When you think what should they do with that instinct, very few of them will act on it and turn that into a product or a company. And then their odds of success will be so low because they're gonna take one shot on goal and it's probably gonna miss.
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Interviewer 2
Well, I like how you write about that in the book because you use the idea of Uber as an example. In the book, you had the idea for Uber in 20.
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Mark Pincus
I did.
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Interviewer 2
SMS dispatching to a cab.
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Mark Pincus
Yeah.
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Interviewer 2
You're not Travis Kalanick. You did not start Uber.
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Mark Pincus
No.
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Interviewer 2
So you make this argument that I think a lot of people, everybody has these ideas.
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Mark Pincus
I had that idea.
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Interviewer 1
Yeah.
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Interviewer 2
Just because you had that idea doesn't mean you actually create the company. Why was Travis able to do it but Mark Pincus, who was in Silicon Valley in 2002, wasn't able to do it?
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Mark Pincus
I can't tell you why Travis was, but I can tell you why I wasn't. I didn't. First of all, I looked at the world as it existed, not as it could exist the way that Travis did. And by the way, in 2002, there wasn't a mobile smartphone. And I thought about it in these conventional ways. Oh, I'm going to deliver your order to the taxi broker who will call a cab. I didn't ever think Travis's idea of the gig economy. I'm gonna let anybody become a driver and have a driver within a minute of you. That was brilliance. But I had an instinct, an instinct that we should be able to order a taxi through our phone. And the importance. The point I'm trying to get people to focus on in the book is that if you assume your instincts are right 95% of the time and your idea is right at best, 25% of the time, what would you do with that information? You know, it's like a time machine.
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Interviewer 1
You write about these instinct veins, deep sources of insight about human needs. And behavior that can spawn multiple product ideas, even whole new industries. Is that what AI is right now? Like what we're doing? Is that what that is?
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Mark Pincus
Or is that AI is beyond an instinct vein? I mean, AI is a fundamental shift in. In computing. I mean, the way that the Internet was. And so I wouldn't.
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Interviewer 1
It's not apples to apples. Yeah, yeah. No, it's interesting. You know, one of the things that I find also is some of the things you talk about, like leadership, you talk about micromanagement is beautiful. And I think about how many times when you think about leaders that it's like, don't micromanage people.
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Mark Pincus
Yeah, I was told that so many times.
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Interviewer 1
Right? No, think about it like, you bring in experts or consultants and they're like, don't micromanage your people. Why is it so important, why is
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Mark Pincus
it so important that you do micromanage? Because the point I'm trying to make here is that at the end of the day, what matters most is your customer experience, not how you delivered it. And so the point to me is deliver the best possible customer experience any way that you get there. And if it's through micromanage, if you can guarantee the quality, if you can guarantee the delivery because you micromanaged, then by all means do that. I'm like, I don't care that McDonald's served 15 million burgers today. That doesn't make mine any better if I want the Colonel cooking mine, you know, individually.
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Interviewer 2
Well, that's a major theme in the book is sort of throwing out this idea of the minimum minimal viable product. Yeah, I'm not going to repeat what the chapter's called because no, we're FCC regulated here, but we're a family.
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Mark Pincus
Well, that chapter, you can say, was the MVP trap. Other chapters, no.
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Interviewer 2
Okay, cool. Yeah, great. There it is. We've been sold this idea though, of iterating and Silicon Valley sort of throw something sees, you know, see if what sticks and iterates on that over and over again. Why wasn't that ever right for you?
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Mark Pincus
Well, the, the original concept that Eric Ries had of minimum viable product and moving fast and being in the market is. Is a great concept. It's just that we now we don't. The point I make is that we no longer have time to go wait, the learning is too slow. If we build a minimum viable product, there's hope in the word viable that this might be your launch product, and then you're gonna invest more in that product than you should. And I like to say Just build it wrong before you build it right. Just build to learn. Be whatever gets you signal from your customer the fastest is. And in the age of AI, we can prototype something or test something so much faster. But it's dangerous. What I'm seeing with AI is less that people are using AI to test and learn faster, but more build faster. And so if I can build something now in three months instead of three years, that's so alluring that I might go do that, but I don't have three months to learn. I'm wrong. Does that make sense? I don't have.
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Interviewer 1
Yeah, that makes sense.
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Mark Pincus
So the viable word is tricky.
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Interviewer 2
Well, I think you had also shared in the book the example of Twitch and building. You know, the founder of Twitch, their team was changing their product every two or three days at that point.
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Mark Pincus
Yeah, they were twitchy.
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Interviewer 2
And that was. That ended up being a good thing for them. Yeah, they got immediate feedback.
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Mark Pincus
Yeah, well, they. I don't even know if it was getting any customer feedback. The feedback was just from themselves. It was, I don't like this product idea anymore. Let's switch. And so that's also important. And part of this, part of what makes it so hard to be a founder, to be a CEO, is that we're supposed to express confidence when we don't personally feel confidence. Right. And so how do you come in on Monday and what if you learned something in the past week that just said this product isn't quite right or it's finally part built and you're like, I'm just not that into it.
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Interviewer 1
Right.
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Mark Pincus
Do you go to your team on Monday and say, guys, I know I got you to work nights and weekends for this, but I don't think this is right anymore? Or do you say, well, I don't want to demotivate my team, and so I'm just going to continue on this path for this whole product cycle? Or I'm afraid to tell my investors who backed me that I was wrong. Right. And so the question is, are you more committed to the intellectual honesty or to harmony?
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Interviewer 1
I would say intellectual honesty.
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Mark Pincus
Most people would not. I mean, most people would not act on that.
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Interviewer 1
I know, I know, but it's like, I don't know. At some point you need to be doing that. Hey, we're talking with Mark Pincus, founder of Zynga. He's got a new book out. It is titled Life at the Speed of Launch. Products that People Love. Are there products? I mean, the product cycle, is it getting shorter or longer? Especially when it comes to technology. Because I feel like there are things that people are so into and then they move on to the next thing and there's so much out there.
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Mark Pincus
How do you say from a consumer standpoint? Well, I say in the book that I think there's a metric that I don't know anyone but me who focuses on it and my former teams. Day365 retention. So if 100 people were using your product today, you know, or a year ago today, how many would still be using it today? And. And it's such a hard thing to build against because we don't have a year to wait.
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Interviewer 1
Right.
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Interviewer 2
But you never would have made your. That. That maybe works from a product perspective of building a company, but from a venture capital perspective, that doesn't work. You write about what attracted you to Mark Zuckerberg when he was a teenager still, was that they were able to sign up, you know, schools, 20% on the first day, the next 80% the next week. Like that happened instantly.
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Mark Pincus
Yes, that's completely. I didn't know. But it turns out that this is necessary but not necessarily complete and sufficient is that if you have 60% engagement, 60% of your users show up every day, which has been true to this day with Facebook, the likelihood that you have high day 365 retention is highly correlated. It may not be the case, but it's highly, highly correlated.
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Interviewer 1
Did you know the minute you spoke with him that this was just something remarkable?
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Mark Pincus
Meaning Facebook? Yes. Yes. And by the way, so would you, both of you. So people who point to the fact that they invested, you know, early on in Facebook, these companies, as a sign that they're a great investor. It's. It does not necessarily mean that they are a great, you know, that their judgment is so great because we all would have said, yes, their access is very impressive, you know.
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Interviewer 1
Yeah.
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Mark Pincus
That. That they had and you didn't have. So, but, but, but here's what's so painful. If you think about it. That story is less like kudos to Mark that he invested, and it's more like Mark. How is it. Think about this. How is it that in 2004, when I met him, I was doing Tribe, I was doing one of the first social networks I started before he did. How did I manage to fail? It's an act of willpower that I failed. It wasn't just Facebook. There was eight or nine social networks. There was Bebo, Tagged, MySpace, Friendster, Friendster, which I invested in. They all worked. I had. I had to pick one idea that didn't work. And, and stoically, heroically stick with it, no matter what. I don't care.
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Interviewer 2
We are with Mark Pincus. He's the founder of Zynga. He's the author of the new book, it's out this week, Life at the Speed of Play. Launch Products People Love. I want to pick up with a headline that we just heard from Amy just now. It's coming from the New York times about how OpenAI is leaning toward waiting until next year for its IPO. Rob Copeland and Mike Isaac writing this over at the New York Times, saying that they're holding off on their initial public offering until next year. Three people involved in the company's deliberation said it punctuates an uncertain future for fast rising AI giants. That's again coming from the New York Times. Mark, you're an investor in OpenAI. You understand also what it's like to take a company public. You did that with several companies and different periods of your professional life.
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Interviewer 1
Timing is everything sometimes, right?
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Mark Pincus
Sure, yes. Like the last day of the.com IPO window.
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Interviewer 2
Yeah. Just your thoughts on OpenAI and its path to becoming a public company?
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Mark Pincus
I, I say I. On the one hand, I'm not sure how much the timing matters other than if it changes their access to capital. So I don't think they can afford to get significantly behind in the capital and build out race. But it's not clear that you have to necessarily go public these days if you look at the sizes of investments. So I think OpenAI is just an amazing kind of generational company. And I think people who count them out and say this is all anthropic are shortsighted. And I think that OpenAI has to catch up on the coding side. I think we'll see that happen with Codex. And they have a clear advantage on the consumer side, which I think is currently being under weighted. I think people wrongly think this is all just about coding and enterprise. And I just think that is where the action is right now. That's where the most revenue growth is right now. But there's no question to me that the consumer side of AI will be just as big, if not bigger. So I know CO2 put out a report calling a $6 trillion market and I thought it was interesting that they capped consumer at 500 billion consumer AI out of 6 trillion.
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Interviewer 1
That doesn't make sense to you?
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Mark Pincus
2 trillion just for the engineering, the coding side? No, that doesn't make any sense to me. That's not the way we've seen the Internet play out.
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Interviewer 1
You seem to be someone who can think super big about things. How should we be thinking about AI and how it changes our world as consumers? How is it going to at home, at work, at play? How is it going to change our world? Or is it just another amped up way of communicating online? I don't know, what is it? How do you think about it?
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Mark Pincus
It's not a way to communicate online yet because it's still oddly a single player experience. Right. We're not in the AI, we're not in the GPTs and the chats together. But if you break your question down, I think first, if you think how will it impact our jobs and the job market? I think we're very, very quickly transitioning from a knowledge worker economy to, to something else we don't have a name for. But it's going to be a prompt worker. It's going to be about being generative and we're going to be whatever our job is. It's going to be very quickly. I mean, it's probably changed a lot for you guys. The amount that we have to rely on the AI, but the amount of leverage we get and the amount of that, it's moving from a value on knowledge to a value on questions and curiosity.
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Interviewer 1
But you also have to have knowledge to ask a smart question for sure. Right? Like, and we're learning too and we talk about this a lot that I forget who the one of the interviews we recently had that like a really good question with AI is going to be several paragraphs long, right? Like if you really want to get a smart, useful information.
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Mark Pincus
You guys both impressively read my book and you have great questions and I think if you'd relied on the AI, you know, and I'll say even writing the book, I had this love hate relationship with AI that at first it's magical and you're like, oh my God, it can take this long talk. I just gave and condense it or can or editing is so painful. Wordsmithing. And then you start reading it and it's getting, it starts to get homogenized and it's like it starts to feel soulless. And it's like, where did my voice go in this? And I even tried a style guide and I'm like, I want you to sound like my voice. And eventually I was like, I don't want you to change my words unless you absolutely have to. And then eventually I said, you know what? It's really helpful for some things. It's part of a process to take a long talk track and condense it to make it more organized. But I started to really kind of like a vinyl record, appreciate the imperfections of how I talk and say, you know what? That's. That's my voice, and that's how you know it is me.
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Interviewer 1
Right.
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Interviewer 2
You know, a major theme in the book is making decisions that your future self will respect. You have this framework, the Book of Life, which is, I think, a really important way to set up the book. I want to talk about that. Just in the last couple of minutes, we have, in the context of you being so public in 2024, coming out and saying, after so many years and so many millions of dollars donating to Democrats, I am now coming out in support of President Trump. I was surprised, I think, a lot of people, to see you do that. How did your Book of Life framework and your idea of, like, looking back at that decision inform that decision at the time?
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Mark Pincus
It's such a good question. You know, it's definitely not something I signed up for in my Book of Life. However, it is important to me. Intellectual honesty is important to me and being willing to take an unpopular stand. And I feel like if I can't do that, if I'm so scared because of groupthink and the consequences of taking a very unpopular position in a lot of my communities, then who can? And it was actually my daughter, Georgia. I didn't decide until the Sunday before the election that I was going to vote for Trump. I decided I was definitely not going to vote for Kamala. And I had lost faith in the Democrats and the mainstream media establishment that I stopped trusting in that whole process. But I was also being very transparent and public on Twitter. I wrote a post in the Free Press saying not that I support Trump, but that Biden at that time in late July of 24, felt even riskier than Trump. And that alone started a shit storm. If I can say that word, it's out there. Okay, so it's too late to take it back. Too late. But Georgia came to me on a Sunday before the election. She said, dad, you know you're going to vote for Trump at this point. And I said, yeah, I think you're probably right. She said, then you have to tweet that because you've been so open and transparent. And I said, yeah, you're right. And so then I. I wrote a whole post. It was, I think, the most viral post I've ever put up, because I think it was. It was oddly a touchstone for a lot of people. Because I was kind of like, this. That big Democratic donor and breaking ranks, you know, was. And I've kind of like. It's funny to call it, but I'm kind of like part of the, like, rank and file Silicon Valley founders. And so it was, I think, a little scary to some of the establishment to see this crumbling. And I put the Post out, and I put my reasons out, and it was on the front page of the New York Post, like, the next day. I didn't think it would be news. And, you know, and it really, really was much louder than I anticipated. But I was like, you know what? If I'm gonna do it, I'm not gonna. It's silly that we should have to hide our political views because we're tagged with an identity. And I'll just say this. I'm not on any team. And I said that throughout. I said, I'm not on Team Democrats. I'm not on Team maga. It sounds cheesy. I'm Team America. I'm team my family, community. And in this environment where we just saw three pretty extreme left Democratic socialists win in New York, I don't know that any of us can really say we're identified with one party, because who the party is is really shifting. I'm a Chicago liberal. I've always been that. I'm socially liberal. I want people to have their own rights and freedoms, and I'm fiscally and economically conservative. I want to see a responsible government. I think I'm stating some obvious things here that 80% of people, I don't know, 90% of people agree with. And so for that to then define me as being right, you know, far right, and to hear journalists say I need to get a. I couldn't find a far right founder in San Francisco. Can I interview you? And I'm like, you want me. I'm far right. I'm like, I'm still here. Nothing's changed. So, yeah, yeah, it's so. It's. And the partner with my future self is I. Even though it was painful and there was some dislocations, and I did lose a couple of dear friendships over it. I am happy that Mark 2024. No, I'm happy Mark 2024 took a stand.
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Interviewer 1
God, I feel like that's a perfect place to wrap. We don't really want to wrap. We hope you will come back.
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Mark Pincus
This is really fun. And I was not expecting you guys to have read my whole book and have all of these really insightful questions. So I hope you guys follow the format of my book. I hope that you take an idea, prosecute it, and as a side hustle, you build a huge business and then this becomes your hobby.
- [32:10]
Interviewer 1
I love it. I love it. You give us a lot to think about. And I have to tell you, we still have a bunch of questions like, I mean it. Please come back. I would love it. Mark Pincus, founder of Zynga, of course, founder of several companies. But his new book is Life at the Speed of Launch Products People Love. There's a lot in here and a lot of great stories.
- [32:30]
Mark Pincus
Okay, tech leaders.
- [32:31]
Interviewer 2
Word on the street is security incidents are dropping way down with Windows 11 PCs built in.
- [32:37]
Mark Pincus
Security for the Win upgrade to Windows 11 Pro at Windows means business Com.