China Tells Companies to Stop Buying Nvidia Chips

Summary

Bloomberg Tech Podcast Summary

Episode: China Tells Companies to Stop Buying Nvidia Chips
Date: September 17, 2025
Hosts: Caroline Hyde (New York), Ed Ludlow (San Francisco), Jensen Wong

Overview

This episode tackles the growing tech and geopolitical tensions between China and the US, focusing on China’s fresh directive for domestic tech giants to halt purchases of Nvidia AI chips—a move that stirs global chip market volatility and highlights the fractured state of global tech supply chains. The episode also covers major investments in UK tech infrastructure by US companies, proposed changes to TikTok ownership, the StubHub IPO, innovations in AI hardware, and the latest developments in robotaxi partnerships. The conversations stress how technology is increasingly inseparable from global politics and business strategy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. China Orders Tech Giants to Cancel Nvidia Chip Orders

[02:29–04:42]

• China’s Internet regulator told leading firms (Alibaba, ByteDance, more) to halt orders for Nvidia’s advanced AI chips, specifically the RTX Pro 6000D (not H20).
• This is seen as a response to ongoing US export bans and pressure on US chipmakers.
• Impact: Nvidia’s market cap drops by $200B over three sessions.
• Rising confidence in local Chinese chipmakers is shifting dynamics.
• Key diplomatic meetings: Nvidia CEO Jensen Huang in the UK with President Trump, where export controls and Nvidia’s China business expected to be a major topic during a summit with President Xi Jinping.

Notable Quote:

"This latest turn of events… signals an escalating pressure campaign by China and they feel like they have some leverage there because the local companies in China making semiconductors… can now compete."
— Mike Shepherd, Bloomberg Tech Editor ([03:17])

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2. Major US Tech Investments in the UK

[04:42–06:42; 40:44–45:00]

• Microsoft, OpenAI, Nvidia, and others pledge tens of billions in UK tech infrastructure—spanning AI, quantum computing, and cloud.
• The UK Prime Minister Keir Starmer sees these as critical wins amid domestic political turmoil.
• Investments may empower US negotiators regarding UK digital services taxes.

Notable Quote:

"Microsoft will invest $30 billion in the UK as part of a push to expand AI infrastructure."
— Jensen Wong ([40:44])

• Data Center Construction Bottlenecks:
  Maria Davidson, CEO of Kojo, outlined labor shortages and the high cost of construction materials as key hurdles.

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3. Global Tech Geopolitics: TikTok’s Future

[07:08–09:45; 30:57–31:43]

• US buyers, including Oracle, Andreessen Horowitz, and Silver Lake, proposed to acquire TikTok’s US operations. ByteDance’s willingness to transfer the core recommendation algorithm remains uncertain.
• The outcome will impact both users and staff, keeping TikTok in limbo until at least December.

Notable Quote:

"The issue has never been can the US come up with buyers that China likes. The issue has really been can China part with the algorithm, which is the secret sauce of TikTok… "
— Alexandra Levine, Bloomberg Social Media Reporter ([07:53])

• Advertiser uncertainty about TikTok’s future benefits competitors like Meta.

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4. StubHub Goes Public: Insights from CEO Eric Baker

[12:07–16:49]

• StubHub IPO priced at $23.5/share, $8.6B valuation.
• CEO Eric Baker recounts the company’s long journey, citing resilience and focus on future innovation: more transparent ticketing, direct sales from teams like the Yankees, and broadening into primary ticketing.
• Regulatory focus: applauds ‘all-in’ pricing for ticket clarity, supports DOJ scrutiny of primary issuance (Ticketmaster).
• AI seen as a “tremendous tailwind” for business.
• Despite slowing H1 revenue due to Taylor Swift’s tour hiatus and pricing policy, long-term growth is strong (>20%).

Notable Quotes:

"We’re always excited to be at the intersection of technology and live events… To your question about regulatory focus… all in pricing that we lobbied for passed at the federal level in May. And that’s just a better experience for consumers."
— Eric Baker ([14:04])

"We see [AI] as a tremendous opportunity and… tailwind… everyone wins.”
— Eric Baker ([14:55])

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5. AI Hardware: Groq Challenges the Giants

[19:02–25:11]

• Groq raises $750M (valuation: $6.9B) to accelerate AI inference hardware, positioning its LPU (Language Processing Unit) as a differentiated alternative to Nvidia's GPUs and Google TPUs.
• LPUs emphasized for their ability to do both parallel and sequential operations, offering “broadband over dial-up” speed for AI tasks at less energy and cost.
• Groq expanding rapidly into US, Europe, Middle East.

Notable Quotes:

"The demand for inference is insatiable… we provide both speed and throughput, lowering cost. The difference in that cost could be the difference between profitability and losing money."
— Jonathan Ross, Groq CEO ([19:48]; [20:28])

"The architectures are quite different and they have different bottlenecks. No architecture is perfect. That’s why we don’t use CPUs anymore for AI…”
— Jonathan Ross ([24:09])

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6. Meta, Apple & the Future of Smart Glasses and Consumer AI

[26:10–30:37]

• Meta Connect event is anticipated, with new hardware (Ray-Ban smart glasses), integration of Meta AI, and simultaneous translation as standout features.
• Real differentiation depends on seamless hardware/software integration—a playbook reminiscent of Apple’s.
• Apple drew more acclaim than Meta for onsite translation features, likely due to platform strength and focus on hardware/software synergy.
• The full utility of Meta’s AI ("what is the end thing consumers will do with it?") remains uncertain.

Notable Quote:

"It’s always going to come down to the same things that arguably made Apple so successful… tight integration of hardware and software."
— Brad Erickson, RBC Capital ([27:17])

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7. Ride-Hailing’s Next Act: Lyft, Waymo, and Global Robotaxis

[31:43–39:06]

• Lyft and Waymo team up to launch autonomous taxi services in Nashville; Lyft to handle fleet management, ensuring readiness, cleaning, and charging.
• Collaboration with Baidu means planned robotaxi rollouts in Europe—praised for the speed and standards of Chinese tech companies.
• The partnership model (as opposed to Tesla/Zoox’s vertical integration) is seen as the quickest way to scale city-by-city.
• Regulatory, logistical, and competitive hurdles (Uber, city-specific issues) remain significant, especially for complex markets like New York.

Notable Quotes:

"This allows every company to specialize... [Waymo] focus on self driving tech, OEMs build the best cars, we provide fleet management and demand."
— David Richard, Lyft CEO ([33:20])

"Baidu… Chinese companies are kind of built for speed. ...They've got really high standards for their technology."
— David Richard ([38:01])

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8. Data Center Construction and the AI Boom

[41:23–45:00]

• Maria Davidson, Kojo CEO, highlights surging investment in data center construction ($40B in 2025, expected to rise >10% annually by 2030).
• Main hurdles are labor shortages—500,000 construction workers missing—and supply chain delays.
• Modular (“prefab”) approaches and AI-powered planning are helping to accelerate builds, particularly in the US and UK.
• Kojo is building digital infrastructure to modernize and streamline construction logistics for massive projects driven by tech’s infrastructural demand.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• Mike Shepherd (China/Nvidia):

  “…an escalating pressure campaign by China… local [semiconductor] companies… can now compete…” ([03:17])

• Jensen Wong (UK Trade):

  “Microsoft will invest $30 billion in the UK…” ([40:44])

• Alexandra Levine (TikTok):

  “The issue has never been can the US come up with buyers that China likes. The issue has really been can China part with the algorithm…” ([07:53])

• Eric Baker (AI & StubHub):

  “AI is a tremendous opportunity… for companies that have tremendous data… you can provide a better product…” ([14:55])

• Jonathan Ross, Groq:

  “The demand for inference is insatiable… we provide both speed and throughput, lowering cost…” ([19:48])

• Brad Erickson, RBC (Meta):

  “It’s always going to come down to…the tight integration of hardware and software.” ([27:17])

• David Richard, Lyft (Robotaxis):

  “This allows every company to specialize…[and] provides a great division of labor.” ([33:20])
  “Chinese companies are kind of built for speed…” ([38:01])

• Maria Davidson, Kojo (Data Centers):

  “The scale is enormous. $40 billion going into the construction of data centers in the US this year…” ([41:41])

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Additional Highlights & Memorable Moments

• Nvidia’s market volatility: $200B wiped off in response to Chinese chip order cancellations.
• Meta’s Smart Glasses translation feature—despite technical parity, Apple’s rollout garnered more hype than Meta’s earlier demo.
• StubHub’s AI strategy: Clear, practical use in customer service and product recommendations, not just industry buzz.
• Lyft/Baidu partnership: Described as “built for speed,” with ambitious rollout plans in Europe.
• US-UK tech ties: New era of digital and infrastructure collaboration, with direct political implications.

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Key Timestamps

| Segment | Start | End | |-----------------------------------|------------|------------| | Nvidia/China Chip Orders | 02:29 | 04:42 | | US Tech Investments in UK | 04:42 | 06:42; 40:44| 45:00 | | TikTok Sale & Geopolitics | 07:08 | 09:45 | | StubHub IPO & AI | 12:07 | 16:49 | | AI Hardware (Groq) | 19:02 | 25:11 | | Meta Connect & Smart Glasses | 26:10 | 30:37 | | Lyft/Waymo Robotaxi Partnerships | 31:43 | 39:06 | | Data Center Buildout (Kojo) | 41:23 | 45:00 |

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Overall Tone

• The conversation is fast-paced, informed, and pragmatic, blending technical insights and business commentary. Speakers consistently emphasize the interconnectedness of technology, regulation, and geopolitics. The tone remains balanced—a mix of cautious optimism (AI, infrastructure) and recognizing the uncertainty caused by ongoing US-China friction.

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Summary Takeaway

This episode encapsulates how tech, politics, and global commerce are tightly interwoven in 2025. US-China tech decoupling, AI advancement, infrastructure investment, and regulatory scrutiny serve as both risks and opportunities for the global industry. The discussion points to a future where agility, partnership, and innovation—both technological and diplomatic—will determine who thrives in an ever-shifting landscape.

Transcript

[Caroline Hyde]

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[Caroline Hyde]

Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio news Bloomberg Tech is live from coast to coast with Caroline Hyde in New York and Ed Ludlow in San Francisco.

[Jensen Wong]

This is Bloomberg tech. Coming up, China's Internet watchdog tells Alibaba, ByteDance and others to terminate orders for an Nvidia AI chip.

[Caroline Hyde]

Plus Microsoft OpenAI among the tech giants announcing plans to spend tens of billions wins on infrastructure in the UK amid President Trump's visit this week.

[Jensen Wong]

And ticket reseller StubHub begins trading publicly today. We'll be joined by its CEO Eric Baker live from the NYSE.

[Caroline Hyde]

Meanwhile, let's get to the rest of the public markets. Ed, we're in wait and see mode. Maybe a bit of profit taking after what's been a significant run up in the NASDAQ of late. Went down about 510 of a percent on the NASDAQ 100 as we anticipate a Fed rate cut that is being priced in by the market. But what does it signal for the rest of the year? That's a key question on the macro side. What you've got on the micro?

[Jensen Wong]

Well, a big part of the drag at the index level is in video. We are down almost 3% on a $4 trillion market cap company down for a third straight session. $200 billion in market cap loss. The headlines really simple. The FTSE Reporting that China's Internet regulator is saying to big Chinese tech companies cancel orders for the latest powered variant of Nvidia's AI chip for that market. At the same time, Jensen Wong's in London with the President of the United States in the UK on that state visit. There's a lot of focus on this name right now.

[Caroline Hyde]

Certainly is. Let's get to it. Over in Washington, our tech editor is with us, Mike Shepherd. Look, this is going to be a key conversation that Jensen Huang is likely to be happening with the President of the United States because once again, another chip designed for China being pushed back by the country itself.

[Ed Ludlow]

Well, that's right, Carol. And Jensen Huang has been having those kinds of conversations with President Donald Trump since he took office in January. He is. Jensen has been trying to reshape the picture when it comes to export controls in a way that's a little, little bit more advantageous for Nvidia. Over the past several years, we've seen the US Tighten China's access to Nvidia's most advanced AI chips and they just won back permission to sell the H20 in China, although now we are seeing China balk at that. This latest turn of events, though, signals an escalating pressure campaign by China and they feel like they have some leverage there because the local companies in China making semiconductors can now compete with some of those lower grade, lower performance AI chips from Nvidia. And now Nvidia would like to leapfrog that until something perhaps a little more advanced, but they would need President Donald Trump to get aboard with that. So we'll have to be watching not only for whatever conversation takes place between Jensen Huang and President Trump, but the more important conversation on Friday, Carroll between Trump and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping to resolve a host of issues. We know about TikTok, but now in video is really emerging on the screen as a topic that they will discuss. China has expressed a lot of chagrin over export controls and this would be a moment to settle it all, including for Nvidia.

[Jensen Wong]

And to be clear, the chip in question here is RTX Pro 6000D, not H20, which is largely Blackwell architecture related and doesn't use HBM. And we're trying to get more on that story. Bloomberg's Mike Shepherd. Thank you very much. Microsoft, OpenAI and other American companies announced plans to spend tens of billions of dollars on tech infrastructure in the UK from AI to quantum computing. Other announcements include investments from companies like Nvidia, callweave, Salesforce and Google. This comes as President Trump is in the UK this week. Bloomberg surveillance is Annmarie Horden joins us from Windsor. The headlines are really clear capital commitments for the biggest technology names, but they are like attending this state visit with Trump almost in parallel. Amh. What do we need to know and what happens in the next couple of days?

[Caroline Hyde]

Well, it's tens of billions of dollars, as you've said, when it comes to a massive dump of capital from these UK US Tech firms into the United Kingdom. Massive win for the prime minister, Keir.

[Ed Ludlow]

Starmer, especially at a time when he's dealing with a lot of political fallout here in the United Kingdom, really drowning.

[Caroline Hyde]

In the polls and has been on thin ice. We've seen a number of individuals resigned.

[Ed Ludlow]

Or ousted from his, most notably Lord Mandelson after revelations of his close relationship.

[Caroline Hyde]

With Jeffrey Epstein in Bloomberg News reporting. So this idea that UK Tech firms want to make sure that they are in the United Kingdom and building the United Kingdom is definitely a win for the prime minister. You have to think though that given.

[Ed Ludlow]

All of this money that is coming.

[Caroline Hyde]

From the United States regarding artificial intelligence, regarding cloud computing and quantum computing into.

[Ed Ludlow]

The United Kingdom, that might give the.

[Caroline Hyde]

President some wiggle room and leverage to.

[Ed Ludlow]

Feel emboldened to bring up once again.

[Caroline Hyde]

At the negotiating table the digital services.

[Ed Ludlow]

Tax, which more than 20 Republicans in Washington are really urging the White House.

[Caroline Hyde]

To do on this trip.

[Ed Ludlow]

So there's a lot of tech deals to be had.

[Caroline Hyde]

And this evening the president at a.

[Ed Ludlow]

Banquet is going to be flanked by.

[Caroline Hyde]

Jensen Wang, who is of course with him as well on the Middle east.

[Ed Ludlow]

Trip, Sam Altman of Altman AI Satya Nadella of Microsoft.

[Caroline Hyde]

And also I think the name to watch, of course, is Apple's Tim Cook because notably that was the individual that.

[Ed Ludlow]

Was missing in the Middle east that.

[Caroline Hyde]

The president continuously wanted to remind everyone he was absent. He's joining him on this state visit to the United Kingdom. Bloomberg's AnnMarie Holden. We thank you so much from Windsor Castle. Let's Talk more about TikTok now because its US operations would be acquired by a consortium that includes Oracle, Andreessen Horowitz and a private equity firm, Silver Lake, under a deal President Trump is set to discuss with Chinese President Xi Jinping this week. This framework agreement would create a US Based version of the popular social media app. Let's bring in Bloomberg social media reporter Alexandra Levine. I mean, this whole segment is about how technology is at the heart of geopolitics. TikTok has been throughout many a year. Does it feel like we're getting some semblance of that framework that still might not actually occur. Well, look, the issue has never been can the US Come up with buyers that. That China likes. The issue has really been can the, can China part with the algorithm, which is the secret sauce of TikTok, which is what makes it so popular with half of the country. And so even though we now know that Oracle and Silver Lake and Andreessen are sort of potentially at the finish line with this, there's very little detail about how ByteDance will be involved in this potential US app that might be that. That US users might be asked to migrate to. And so without knowing the details around the algorithm and also ByteDance's involvement, we really don't know if what we will end up seeing with this framework will even be compliant with the law.

[Jensen Wong]

Exactly. So everything we're discussing is according to Bloomberg reporting and Bloomberg sources, and when we did speak to a White House official, they basically said that any details of this framework work a speculation until such time that the White House confirms them. However, based on the reporting. Alex, something Caroline and I were discussing this morning is that the consumer, the Tick Tock user, will face a choice. Go to a new app, stay or not. You know, and just explain the kind of no man's land and confusion there is out there right now for Tick Tock as a platform.

[Caroline Hyde]

Well, look, I think that TikTok users have proven that they are an extremely loyal base. We saw that earlier this year when TikTok was on the verge last year when TikTok was on the Verge of being banned and TikTokers called their members of Congress and deluge them with messages saying, keep the app, don't ban the app. But I think one thing that'll be really important to watch is just the limbo that the, that the people working at the company will be in. And, and also a lot can change between now and Friday. As we know, there's a lot going on within video right now. There's sort of other players that are percolating in the background that could completely change things between now and Friday. And then a lot could change between Friday and the middle of December when this next phase of the extension will expire.

[Jensen Wong]

Bloomberg's Alexandra Levine, thank you very much. Now, coming up on Bloomberg Tech, shares of the ticket reseller StubHub begin trading today. Stick with us for a front row seat to a conversation with CEO Eric Baker. No ticket required. That's next. This is Bloomberg Tech.

[Caroline Hyde]

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[Caroline Hyde]

Shares of StubHub. We'll start trading today with the shares have been priced at $23.5. That values are coming in around around $8.6 billion. The ticket reseller is the latest company to go public in a US IPO market Experience a bit of a hot streak that speak with StubHub CEO Eric Baker, who joins us now from the NYSE. Eric, the history you set out this company in the year 2000, sold it to ebay, bought it back, amalgamated with a European giant you had already built, and now it goes public. How does it feel?

[Ed Ludlow]

It's tremendous. A lot of gratitude to reach this milestone stone for the company. It's certainly been a long journey, as you say, from 2000, but now we're really focused on the next 25 years and the bright future ahead.

[Caroline Hyde]

Take us to the next 25 years because there are regulatory headwinds, there are people worrying about bots. There are a way in which you can beef up this business to add more things in secondary market ticket sales. Where do you go? Where do you focus?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah, so our focus really is we've always wanted to make it easy, easier for people to access live events. And so what we started with is, as you noted many years ago, was to make the resale market safe and secure and easier for people to access tickets. What we're focused on now is realize consumers don't care whether it's a primary ticket or a secondary ticket. They just want to access the live events that they want to go to and discover easily, safely, and so forth. And that system's been pretty broken for a long time how those tickets are originally distributed. So we're really working on creating a better experience. Experience. And we've already had exciting partners like the Yankees in major League Baseball who started selling tickets directly in this open distribution network.

[Jensen Wong]

You look to going public in a time where Taylor Swift had gone through the ERAS tour. There was a lot of hype and mental. And you hit pause. You're doing it now. And I think a big question everyone's got for you, Eric, whether they're a consumer or not, is what happens next with a regulatory crackdown? The price practices of your industry are very much under the microscope at the moment.

[Ed Ludlow]

Well, I think, first of all, we're always excited to be at the intersection of technology and live events because we're very bullish on the future of live events. And we think that doesn't change. To your question about regulatory focus, I think to the things really people looked at. One was transparency and pricing that we at SubHub have always advocated for, and that all in pricing that we lobbied for passed at the federal level in May. And that's just a better experience for consumers. And the key is it's now a level playing field for everyone in the market. I think the second real regulatory focus, quite frankly, has been what the Justice Department is looking at with the primary issuance of tickets and making sure that networks are open and fan friendly. And that is something we certainly applaud because, you know, we're on the side of the fan.

[Jensen Wong]

Eric, is artificial intelligence a headwind trend or a tailwind for the secondary ticketing market?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah, we see it as a tremendous opportunity to tremendous tailwind. And I think if you think about it, again, we're a technology and product company. And I think Alex Karp at Palantir, I don't want to misattribute, put it really well that he said the artificial intelligence technology for companies that have tremendous data allows you to provide a better product while increasing your revenue tremendously and reducing costs so that everyone wins. And we're seeing that across the board. How we deal with customer service, how we're releasing new features in the product to make it easier for people to locate the tickets they want. So we're very excited about it. And again, with the leadership position we have and the skilled proprietary. Proprietary data we have, we think the sky's the limit.

[Caroline Hyde]

We are speaking with Eric Baker, founder CEO of StubHub to our radio and TV audiences. You say I could help drive revenue tremendously. Let's talk about your revenue thus far because the first half of the year is about 3% growth. That is significantly slower than the previous. Now we know that maybe we haven't had Taylor Swift on tour this year, but Eric, are you seeing a slowdown in demand?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah. So thank you. No, we're really seeing people continuing to buy tickets and growth. I think you note, it's important to note two of the things that happen that are unique. This here one is Taylor Swift and her tourist behind us. And there is only one Taylor Swift. So I think she is, she's so tremendous. We even broke her out in the S1. So it's great to be that popular. Second is, as I mentioned, all in pricing passed in May. And when we lobbied for it, we knew that that creates a one time hit to the market as consumers just adjust. We've seen that already in states like New York that had passed it before. So when you look through those headwinds, the business is growing extremely nicely north of 20%.

[Caroline Hyde]

I'm interested though on your profitability or lack thereof, Eric, because it's interesting you've gone public without that story to tell. When will it become the story you can tell?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah, no, I think what you're referring to is by the accounting metrics like net income, that it shows a loss. But I think when we went on the roadshow and when investors look, they really look at ebitda, which is your earnings before interest, tax, depreciation, amortization as well as your cash flow. And on that dimension, we've been profitable for a long time and generating hundreds of millions of dollars. That's the way we've been able to service the debt that we've had. And obviously now that we're deleveraging and taking the debt down, our cash flow will even go up further. So I think that's one of the many reasons that our story was very well received when we went out on the roadshow and by our new partners, Eric Bloomberg.

[Jensen Wong]

This some deep reporting on the FTC looking at Ticketmaster arrival on the issue of bots hoovering up sale tickets for resale and that inaction. Have you discussed that issue with the regulator and how are you addressing the problem?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yes, we've, we've always. And bots. And it's interesting as you note is really about how these tickets are distributed in the first place. And so one of the things we've always lobbied for is enforcement of the bots Act. And that's really because we believe that these tickets need to be distributed in a way that's safe, secure, democratic, through open channels, as you mentioned, they're looking at, I believe, Ticketmaster and others who are handling the primary issuance of the tickets. And they really need to make sure that their technology and safeguards are in place to make sure this doesn't happen. But again, it's something that we're very pro consumer. That's how we win. So we hope that all that stuff gets cleaned up.

[Jensen Wong]

Eric, very quickly. Next year's soccer or football World cup, how big an opportunity is that for StubHub?

[Ed Ludlow]

Look, we, we love the World Cup. It's been a phenomenal event because think about it, we run the largest global platform in the world for ticket exchange for all kinds of events. And if you had to say, what is the largest global event in the world? I think you can honestly say it's the World Cup. It's people from all over the world traveling to come see events. It's going to be in North America. It's extremely exciting and we're excited to hopefully help as many fans as possible make their dreams come true to access getting to the World Cup. So we're all, we're all football fans, so to speak, in 2026.

[Jensen Wong]

We're football fans here, too. Eric Baker, founder and CEO, Stubborn Holdings. Great to have you on the program. Thank you. Compute provider Grox just closed a new $750 million funding round valuing the company at $6.9 billion, highlighting investor interest in companies seeking to alleviate a shortage of chips in computing power for AI workloads. Grox CEO Jonathan Ross is with us. And I always like to go back to basics for you, Jonathan. Like Groq stacks up against Nvidia and Google's tpu, and we're largely focused on inference. Why did you raise this round in that context? What is it going to allow you to do to be more competitive against those two giants?

[Ed Ludlow]

Well, the bottom line is that the demand for inference is insatiable. The total amount of capacity that people are trying to deploy is mind boggling. The numbers that people are putting up, and that's only growing. And in our case, we don't feel that we're competitive. We feel that we're differentiated. If you're not differentiated, there's no point. And in our case, what we're able to do is we're able to provide price performance. So when you're training these models, you don't need the chips to Run particularly fast, you just need them to have a lot of throughput. And in our case we're able to provide both speed and throughput, lowering the cost. And when you're spending money on every single query, the difference in that cost can be the difference between profitability and losing money.

[Jensen Wong]

Inference, meaning running the models as opposed to training. Have you done the math on that, Jonathan? How much inference does the world need?

[Ed Ludlow]

It's insatiable for the reason that unlike with the industrial age, where as you're producing oil and compute is the new oil, let's be clear about that, you can only consume as much oil as you had hardware built that it could consume it. In the generative age, every model that you train, you can scale it up to the amount of compute that you have available. As such, people are scaling as much as they can possibly get compute.

[Caroline Hyde]

And so that compute needs datacenter capacity. Where do you add that? How much is it the US or internationally focused? Jonathan?

[Ed Ludlow]

Actually that's one of our primary advantages. So the GPUs that are being deployed today often need liquid cooling and those are new data centers. In our case, we're deployed in North America, so the United States, Canada, we've deployed in Europe, we've deployed in the Middle East. Our first deployment in Europe was actually an air cooled data center that one of the hyperscalers was moving out of because they couldn't put GPUs into it. Because we use so much less energy for our chips, because we produce so much less heat, we were able to take that data center on. And so that gives us this ability to get access to data center capacity in a very comfortable competitive way.

[Caroline Hyde]

So the language processing unit, the LPU that you offer, I mean you're taking on the TPU that you help design. Over at Google, we understand, and indeed Nvidia. Technically speaking, how is it achieving this? The run rate that you can get at a lower temperature point?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah, so the architecture is very different. And I took a page out of what I learned at Google with respect to display distributed systems. Everyone knows that Moore's Law means that the number of transistors doubles roughly every 18 to 24 months. What I think not so many people have noticed is that the number of chips is more than doubling every 18 to 24 months. So we asked ourselves if we were going to be increasing the number of chips, was there an architectural change that we could do? And the answer was yes. And so without getting into the technical detail, what we do is we take the model, the AI models And we spread them out across a large number of chips, and that allows us to operate much like a automotive factory. And the more chips that we use, the cheaper it gets, the faster it gets. And our advantage is how many chips we can bring to bear on an inference problem. Now, typically when you're talking about a training cluster, you'll talk about 16,000, 32,000, 64,000 GPUs, and the more GPUs that you can bring to bear, the better. That hasn't been the case in inference. Typically, you'll see eight GPUs, and it's just a technological limitation that prevents you from bringing more. In our case, we're running some models for inference with 4,000 or more chips. And the more chips that we can bring to bear, the faster and the cheaper it gets.

[Jensen Wong]

Jonathan, has Groqued signed any deals that would see you benefit from the commitments we've had in the last 24 hours in the United Kingdom at the hyperscaler level, and also some of the names that have committed tens of billions of capital to that market.

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah. So Grok has deployed some large clusters around the world as an example in the Middle East. And so we worked with Commerce to be able to get that deployment done. And they were very helpful, and we appreciate that. And also in Finland, of course, we're looking at the UK very closely, and I'll actually be there in less than a week.

[Jensen Wong]

The world right now is GPUs and GPUs, or in your case, LPUs. Why do we need both?

[Ed Ludlow]

The architectures are quite different and they have different bottlenecks. No architecture is perfect. Right. This is why we don't use CPUs anymore. For AI, we use predominantly GPUs and now LPUs. The difference between the two is that GPUs are very good at parallel processing. That is, if there's no sequential component to it. But when you're talking about language or other reasoning or logic problems, you can't produce what's called a token. You can't produce the hundredth token until you've produced the 99th, or you can't produce the hundredth word until you produce the 99th. And that brings in a sequential component. Now, CPUs have been good at sequential, but these problems also have a parallel component at the same time. What the LPU does is it's really good when you have both a lot of parallel and a lot of sequential components to the problem. And that allows us to output tokens at a Very fast rate. And the experience difference, it's the difference between broadband and dial up, but at the much lower cost than you would expect expect given the speed.

[Caroline Hyde]

Jonathan Ross, CEO and founder of Grok, on the latest fundraise. We thank you for joining us today.

[Jensen Wong]

Welcome back to Bloomberg Tech. I'm going back to semiconductors. We talked in the show about how Nvidia shares are under pressure while at the index level they're putting a drag on the stocks or Philadelphia Semiconductor index. Over the course the of course of 10 sessions, you're up 8.2%. But actually as of last night's close, the stocks had its best streak of gains since 2017. As it stands, that streak's over. We're down 4.10of a percent in the session. So we've gone from a story where we had a fueled growth on chips. Now we're getting concerned about China in particular. And over the next few days we should hear more because Jensen Wong, the CEO of Nvidia is in the United States Kingdom with President Trump. And Nvidia is at the heart of these negotiations between the US And China. It's an index to watch going forward, but it has seen a lot of momentum of late.

[Caroline Hyde]

Care it has. Someone who's not in the UK is Mark Zuckerberg. Why? Because Meta Connect is kicking off later today. Analysts are anxiously watching for any groundbreaking announcement like, well, maybe some smart glasses project. Brad Erickson, Internet analyst at RBC Capital Markets, joins us now. Smart glasses has been where it's at from a hardware perspective for matter, how can they push that story forward?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah, I think it's just integrating more of the capability with, with Mark's vision on Meta AI. Right. Like they've given some applications in terms of some of the translation capabilities, being able to, you know, have some of the augmented reality capabilities. And I think you'll just see, you know, we expect to see more of that tonight.

[Caroline Hyde]

So really the vision of generative AI coming in the heart and why matter AI is really amplified with the hardware story. But the competition's coming. We know Google's got them in the works. We know that of course, Apple might or might not in the future. But Brad, therefore, what sets their deal with Ray Ban apart? How can they continue to offer a little bit more to the experience than an augmented reality vibe?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah, it's always going to come down of the same things that arguably made Apple so successful over the last nearly 20 years, which is tight integration of hardware and software. Right. Metta has the platform that people already know it for for the various family of apps they've created Meta I have have more than a billion users. The utility that that creates and the stickiness that that creates for their customers, that's going to be the key thing. The hardware everybody's to going going to be able to do right just like they've always been with any piece of consumer electronics hardware. It's the software that's going to keep people coming back if they're going to come back.

[Jensen Wong]

Brad, thank you for bringing up Apple and you also reference translation. Last week at the iPhone event, Apple shares swung from a decline to positive territory and Duolingo shares plunged. When Apple demonstrated simultaneous translation through the Airports Pro 3 a year ago. Go Meta demonstrated simultaneous translation through that generation of Ray Ban metas. Why did Matter not get the same credit for that technology that Apple did a week ago?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah, I think part of it is just it was so new secondarily just relative to the stock. You've also got a giant core business, right that you're comping and that's clearly not going to be the focus of it nor is it necessarily clear how you would, would how you would yield an advertising business out of that. So I think that's just mechanically that's kind of the primary reason. But clearly this is going to be, you know, a capability for a lot of companies here going forward and certainly could be a super cool complement as you know again met it looks to build in all these capabilities to these new glasses.

[Jensen Wong]

A lot of people still don't understand the Metta AI story. With Chat GPT I just have an app on my phone or on my MacBook. I use it every single day.

[Ed Ludlow]

Right.

[Jensen Wong]

With Metta I have a standalone app. It's integrated into Instagram. WhatsApp. I am an owner of the Maybach Ray Ban. That is a different interface or medium to use it. But do you see kind of what the end thing is going to be for Metta? How consumers actually interact with the work they've done on the model side.

[Ed Ludlow]

I don't think anybody does, candidly. I think one of the things that I'm always struck by as we all study and learn AI every day is that, you know, week by week, month by month, we kind of all have to expand our minds on what the capability is by coding is a great example, something we've been spending a lot of time in lately with the web design companies. People are using these things to develop applications, not to build businesses necessarily in the traditional sense. That's what where everybody's brain would have gone but they're creating daily productivity tools. Enterprises are using them to create actual internal work processes. Right. Unrelated to their core software. So there's all sorts of new things. I think Meta AI is very similar in that you know, we know that it's going to be able to provide like you said, chat CBT functionality with the app. What we don't know is how else might people build that in to their day to day lives whether it's for work, personal or productivity or what have you. That's going to be value add and get to a point where you're going to say hey I can't live without this new capability in my life. And we don't exactly know what that is yet. We're learning about it, we're trying to sort of expand our minds but we haven't gotten there yet.

[Caroline Hyde]

Well, I mean Mark Zuckerberg's been expanding the amount that he wants to spend on it and the appetite and ambition, that's for sure Brad. And he's been given a pass. And you think the stock could climb even higher up to 850 of another to 9% gain on where we currently are. How much does the tick tock story bear into its bread and butter right now?

[Ed Ludlow]

It, it matters but TikTok is a very small business compared to the size of Meta's overall ad business. I will say that you know for a quarter or two now in our channel checks talking with advertisers what we have heard was, you know, the stalled or the uncertain future of TikTok and really caused advertisers to pause any spending growth. They're still spending to be clear on ads on TikTok but there wasn't nearly as much growth to the degree that we get a deal here. At some point maybe that provides clarity, becomes a little bit of a headwind. But I wouldn't, I don't want to like overstate it because it is TikTok still, you know, somewhere in the corner. Call it 10% of the business relative to the size of Metis ad business.

[Jensen Wong]

Brad Erickson of RBC Capital Markets, thank you very much. Lyft and Waymo are partnering to bring self driving taxis to Nashville. Customers will be able to request driverless rides on both companies platforms and Lyft will provide fleet management for Waymo's national operations. Let's get to more with Lyft CEO David Richard. This is something you've been working on for some time.

[Ed Ludlow]

That's right.

[Jensen Wong]

And the state of play is, is very clear. Waymo Also has a partnership with Uber in different markets. You now have a partnership in Nashville. Just explain the rationale for you on why this is a great go to market for Robotaxi.

[Ed Ludlow]

Well, as you know, we've been saying for a while, we think self driving cars are going to be hugely market expanding for rideshare. It's just, it's a really good product. And then when we looked at potential partners, of course Waymo has to be at the top of the list. The great thing about this partnership is it does two things. It supplies demand. So if you're in the self driving car business, you got to have demand and we got lots of demand every single day and we do it in a very integrated way. But the other thing is, as you just mentioned, it supplies fleet management. And that sounds kind of geeky, but it's really important that every one of those cars be ready to drive, you know, 247 if needed. And that's something we're really good at. We've been doing that for a long time.

[Jensen Wong]

So you're emphasizing the, the sort of capital light business model for you, right? The counterargument is the Tesla or the Zoox one, which is control the full stack hardware software, operationally the app the consumer interfaces with. Would you argue that you can scale this faster going this route, go to more cities quicker?

[Ed Ludlow]

I would, I would, yeah. I mean this allows every company to specialize, right. So Waymo can really focus on providing great self driving technology. The Waymo driver is obviously a great product. They partner with OEMs, the car manufacturers that can choose the best car form and then we can provide the fleet management, as I say, that keeps the cars clean and charged and ready to go as well as the demand. So that any time a person wants a car, they can get one or they can get a driver car. Right. I mean they can get both. So it's a, I think it's a great division of labor.

[Caroline Hyde]

Let's talk about that fleet management, Flex Drive, because you're going to be building, you're going to be putting some capital expenditure to work. David, why does that make sense and when will that be finished?

[Ed Ludlow]

So we've been in the Flex Drive world. Let me explain for a second. So about a decade ago, Lyft decided that for a certain type of driver it really makes sense to have cars that they can rent right on the platform and they can do, we can take care of, of the maintenance and making sure that those cars are always ready to drive. So that's, we've been doing for about a decade now. So when we look at the autonomous vehicle world, you know, look, when you see a car driving around the city, it looks like magic. It looks like no one had to touch it, but no, someone had to charge it, someone had to clean it, someone has to maintain it. Some probably has to reboot it from time to time. And we're really good at that. So, as you say, we're building a new depot there. We've got a small one. We're building a bigger one for this partnership. And what it does is it allows the cars to be ready to drive. Ready to drive. Think about. So when you travel on an airline and you know, you know that of course they want the airplane in the air, but they also need it to be ready to fly at all times. They want that turnaround to be super fast. And that's what Flex Drive does. It means that people like Waymo can get the most out of their asset, which is super good for them.

[Caroline Hyde]

Look, today, investors love this announcement. And the shares are rising. Shares have been doing well all year because you've had three straight quarters of profit. Profitability. David, how are you going to finance what is a little less asset? Light is building these facilities to help keep all our auto cars clean.

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah. So as I say, because we've been in the Flex Drive business, the subsidiary business, for a long time, we've actually had, you know, capital deployed to that for a long time. We have about 24 locations in about 15 different states across the United States, which I think gives you a sense of how this kind of partnership could scale over time. And we own some of those cars ourselves. Others, those cars are financed by other groups. So the good news is this won't be a significant change to the current strategy. It's just sort of a re. Vectoring, let's say, of the money we spend more towards autonomous.

[Jensen Wong]

Okay. Scale over time. This morning, Bloomberg tech producer Marguerite Gallerini put this table together. You know, the table, right. It explains the roadmap from here. So let's look at it together. This is 2026 and it focuses on Waymo printing sensibly, but there's you there, right? Nashville. You are going to come up against Uber in negotiating with Waymo for cities that are not yet claimed for. What are the advantages that you're going to present to win that business with Waymo against Uber and how much you're going to have to give up, you know, to, to. To get a deal done?

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah. So I think the way I would look at that is one of the reasons we were so I'll call it patience in working for through this deal, because it took a while, was we wanted to come up with something that is good for Waymo, good for Lyft and good for riders. And that's hard to do. It's hard to have, you know, kind of a three way win. We feel really good about it and feel like this is a great model for us to expand to other cities in the future. But look, city by city, you know, some places we're actually going to compete with Waymo itself. Right. Because for example, here in San Francisco they've got their own.

[Jensen Wong]

Appreciate that admission.

[Ed Ludlow]

Yeah, of course. So this is something that we have to kind of recognize and say how do we come up with a construct that is really durable and frankly can benefit all the companies? And then the other guys will do what they do and you know, we'll see who does a better job.

[Jensen Wong]

Look, people are going to accuse me of wanting to create a headline here, but it's a really important question. Tesla and Zoox are committed to their own go to market model. Right? We talked about they control the full stack. But have you held discussions with both Tesla and Zoox to say like, look, this is the model we're doing doing with Waymo, we can do something similar. Do you see that as being realistic?

[Ed Ludlow]

So of course I don't want to comment on conversations we might be having. What I can tell you is we're talking to everyone who finds the partnership model interesting. You know, there are of course always companies. Whenever you see a new industry, you have some companies that say I want to do it all. And frankly if you look back a couple of years ago, just about every company in the self driving space was in that zone. They wanted to do, do everything, you know, top to bottom. I think over time most companies find, particularly when it's capital intensive and quite complex like Rideshare is and self driving. Is that a division of labor where everyone does what they're good at? Is, is the best model. But we'll see. You know, it's still such early days.

[Caroline Hyde]

But you struck deals with interesting players in Europe. Baidu. What's it like working with a Chinese giant? What were those negotiations like?

[Ed Ludlow]

You know that actually I'll tell you what was very interesting. It came together fairly quickly and in part I think is, you know, frankly Chinese companies are kind of built for speed. You know, they, for those of you who don't know, you know, Baidu, you can sort of think of them as kind of the Google or Alphabet of, of China. They have many businesses, but self driving cars are a very important one for them. And we committed that we would roll out some of their technology in one to two markets. We would expect in Europe over the next 12 months or so. So very early days there. But I can tell you they got really high standards for their technology. We're super excited about working with those guys and we'll have more to say about that next year once we start to roll out in Europe.

[Caroline Hyde]

One minute. How hard is it to get to New York?

[Ed Ludlow]

I mean, I take a flight there.

[Caroline Hyde]

Pretty easily, but the auto, the robotaxi, how hot? When am I going to have it here?

[Ed Ludlow]

I love that, you know, it's going to take a little while. New York is a complex place to do business. The streets are complex, complicated. You know, there's a lot of interest there. Look, you know this Caroline, I mean Lyft has been there for many years. It's super strong in New York. We also run the Citi Bike program as you know. Super excited to bring self driving there someday, but that was probably going to take a little while. Sorry about that.

[Caroline Hyde]

You have to wait for my addiction with the bikes will just have to continue. Lift CEO David.

[Ed Ludlow]

There we go.

[Caroline Hyde]

It's always a joy to have you on the show. Take care. How can you grow your business from.

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[Jensen Wong]

Mentioned earlier in the show that Microsoft, Microsoft will invest $30 billion in the UK as part of a push to expand AI infrastructure. We also heard from Grok about its datacenter plans. Of course tech companies are pledging to build more data center capacity around the world. Let's bring in Maria Davidson, CEO of Kojo is the largest construction procurement platform in the US Giving her a unique insight into the datacenter build out. I think we can get to where you fit into the process of, of what is just massive infrastructure as a project. But that your reaction first to what's happening in the uk it seems to be the next market in this cycle.

[Caroline Hyde]

Oh absolutely. I mean when you think about how much potential there is in the uk, I think it is extremely exciting and very, very untapped. So I love to see companies like Microsoft and Google coming in and investing in the UK and the US and the UK actually working closely closer together.

[Jensen Wong]

You say a lot of potential in the uk Why?

[Caroline Hyde]

I think because one, there's extremely talented workforce in the UK and you know, you have world class universities, you have incredible research like DeepMind coming out. Years before anyone would have expected an outcome like that in the uk and so I think that means that in the UK right now, if we keep on investing, I think we're going to see a lot more, more deep mind like outcomes. I've got to say you've got three Brits around a table talking about the opportunity in the uk. So I'll diverse us a little bit because we're three Brits that sit in the US right now. Maria, you're building businesses to try and make supply chains clearer for contractors, for builders out there. And I'm interested as to what the scale is like here in the United States, what the key bottlenecks are that you're trying to fix. The scale is enormous. So just this year we have $40 billion going into the construction of data centers in the US that's expected to grow more than 10% a year. So by 2030 that's going to be $65 billion. That's unprecedented. And the biggest issue with building these, it's not getting GPUs, it's getting the materials and finding the electricians to be able to actually meet this demand. Okay, so your role is ensuring that when the contractor, which is very hard to come by and labor is Sh short and we've seen immigration policies hit that. But when you get them on site, they've actually got the pieces and the parts to work with. What has been some of the most complex areas when it comes to particularly the hyperscalers need and the datacenter build out, it's a lot. When you think about the construction industry in the US Even though they're building some of the most sophisticated infrastructure out there. Right. They're building projects that involve huge amounts of technology and AI infrastructure specific needs, they still largely have to rely on pen and paper and Excel to track where things are. It's hard to know what's arriving when these are all huge challenges. And so when you couple that with the fact that there are 500,000 workers missing from the US construction workforce, and you couple that with the fact that materials on average are 44% more expensive than they were in February 2020 before, for Covid, that starts really creating a perfect storm.

[Jensen Wong]

I actually think it's worth going a step earlier in the process than what Caroline just asked about. Right. We've. We've kind of learned over the course of the last two or three years about how it works in the United States. You have a financing partner, you have someone like Crusoe putting it all together. You need to select a site. Then you've got to talk to the utility because you need to power that site. The utility has to think about where they get the electricity.

[Ed Ludlow]

Electricity from.

[Jensen Wong]

Is that going smoothly and well that. That initial process?

[Caroline Hyde]

It depends. It's definitely gotten a lot faster. If you think about your average size. Data centers. Right. Data centers on the smaller side, maybe 10 to 30 megawatts.

[Jensen Wong]

Right.

[Caroline Hyde]

Those previously would have taken, let's say, 24 months to 36 months to build. Now you're seeing data centers build probably twice as fast in part because things like site readiness, interconnection, they're all being dealt with in advance. Now I think prefab is a huge subject here because the more that we can lean into modular construction, the more we don't have to rely on the sequential building, but we can actually build in parallel.

[Jensen Wong]

And there's also like a self fulfilling prophecy in the sense that all of the AI names who actually just end up leasing the capacity, right. They don't even own the thing, but they would say, oh, all the work we're doing in AI is actually going to benefit the planning and execution of these builds. Build outs. I guess that's what you'd say. You also help with.

[Caroline Hyde]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean A lot of it is the better planned that you can be in advance, the better the project is actually going to go. And so if you know all of the components that you're going to need, if you have the mapped out schema, if you have all of those interconnection blocks ready to go, then of course contractors can be much better prepared. I want to talk about you, about Kojo, about, about the $94 million you've thus far raised. 600 construction companies that you're working with. You've just had an add on to your Series C, I think, I believe. How much are you seeing inbound? How much are you fighting off people wanting to put money into your company because they're realizing it's about bricks and mortar, it's about the very underlying infrastructure right now? Well, we're seeing a huge amount of inbound. The focus for us has always been how can we empower people, Contractors, right? How can we take the contractors that for a really long time were completely ignored by the tech industry? And specifically there, I'm talking about the trades, right? The electricians, the folks working in mechanical and H vac and drywall, they for a very long time had very few solutions that were built specifically for them. And so for us, it's about saying, well, how do we build solutions that are specifically targeted towards you and that salt your biggest pain points, like knowing where your materials are and having the visibility of how you're doing against your estimates in real time. Well, you're just completing a $10 million Series C extension. Come back when you're raising yet more, I'm sure. Maria Davidson, CEO, Kojo, it's great to have you on the show. Meanwhile, that does it. For this edition of Bloomberg Tech. We've done a whole host of things, but we're going to count down to Meta Connect tonight. Of course, tune in to make for an interview with Meta's Chief Product officer, Chris Cox, live on the show tomorrow, which Ed, you'll be doing.

[Jensen Wong]

Yeah, looking forward to that. I have a lot of questions about the relationship between software and hardware. After all, that is technology. Check out the pod. You know where to find it on the Bloomberg terminal as well as online on Apple, Spotify, Iheart and all kinds of other places on the Internet. Thank you for watching. This is Bloomberg Tech.

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