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- [00:00]
IBM Representative
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- [01:02]
David Gura
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- [01:32]
Podcast Announcer
at Hex AI
- [01:36]
Adobe Acrobat Advertiser
Bloomberg Audio Studios Podcasts Radio News welcome to the Bloomberg this Weekend podcast with David Gura, Christina Raffini and Elisa Mateo.
- [01:51]
Christina Raffini
Thanks for joining us for today's selection of conversations from the show.
- [01:54]
David Gura
You can listen to our favorite discussions right here here on the podcast, but also make sure to join us live every Saturday and Sunday morning starting at 7am Eastern.
- [02:02]
Lisa
We're on Bloomberg Television Radio and the Bloomberg Business app bringing you unique takes and in depth interviews on news, politics, lifestyle and culture.
- [02:14]
David Gura
President Trump staying in Washington this weekend after scrapping a trip to Bedminster, New Jersey. According to the New York Times, he has been reviewing military options for potentially resuming the bombing campaign against Iran.
- [02:25]
Christina Raffini
That's right, but according to the Qataris, the President also just had a phone call with the emir of that nation where they discussed de escalation of tensions in the region as well as maritime safety in the Strait of Hormuz. Back with us is Bloomberg's White House correspondent Kate Sullivan. Kate, as we're hearing, all these Gulf allies and some European allies as well are trying to dissuade Trump from restarting this conflict. When it comes to who's talking to him in the White House and who's helping him make these decisions, he's down one key player, and that's DNI Tulsi Gabbard, who resigned yesterday citing health concerns with her husband. Talk to us a little bit about her role and then just the national security apparatus around the president and who is advising him as he goes into all these foreign policy issues.
- [03:10]
Kate Sullivan
Yeah, that's right. So it was surprising news yesterday. Tulsi Gabbard said that she had presented her letter of resignation to the president, that her husband is battling cancer, and that she wanted to be by his side. I will say that Gabbard has been a really interesting figure in the administration, particularly amid the war. She's been very vocal about her anti interventionist stance. She's been, you know, when she was on the campaign trail with Trump, he was talking a lot about no new wars and no new foreign conflict. So she is on the record with essentially saying that she is, is not for starting new wars abroad. And she has not been a key figure in the room. You know, we have reported this, others have reported this in recent weeks. When it comes to Venezuela and Iran and some of the discussions about Cuba, she has been, of course, she, she had a top role in the administration, but the reporting says that she was not really a key figure in these discussions. Trump has a very small national security team around him. It's a very small group of individuals that includes Marco Rubio. JD Vance is also part of that. Pete Hegseth, there are other top advisors. But really when it comes to who he's listening to and talking about these things with, it's a smaller group than you'd expect.
- [04:37]
David Gura
Yes. I will note that in our reporting, an indication some people refer to DNI as Do not Invite. That was a nickname her position earned over the course of this second term. Kate, you mentioned Cuba, and I'd love to go there as well. Yes, there's a lot of talk about what might happen next with Iran, how long this cease fire might last, will it be continued, perhaps in perpetuity. At the same time, we have seen over the course of this last week a lot of pressure ratcheting up on Cuba as well. Talk a bit about that and what the latest thinking is among members of this administration and observers about where all of this might be headed.
- [05:09]
Kate Sullivan
You know, it was interesting because we've heard Trump really escalating up until this week. We really heard him escalating his rhetoric on Cuba and saying a lot of things along the lines of, you know, after Iran, we're going to turn to Cuba. You know, I might be the first president to really do something. They're really kind of heavily hinting at potential military action in Cuba. I thought it was interesting when he was speaking to reporters on Wednesday, I believe he seemed to downplay the need for military action and to further ratchet up pressure on Cuba. And this is coming, of course, after the indictment of Raul Castro, the former president of Cuba, which in of itself was. Was a huge escal. You know, the United States has charged him with murder. And so he's. But it was interesting after that, you know, which a lot of people saw as sort of perhaps a prelude to US Military action in Cuba. The president, at least publicly, is now saying that there is not a need to further ratchet up pressure there. And he was asked about military action in Cuba, and he seemed to really downplay the need for that. So it's unclear what the next steps are on Cuba, but of course, we're closely watching any and all development, strategic ambiguity.
- [06:22]
David Gura
Christina?
- [06:22]
Christina Raffini
Yeah, that was surprising to me, given the indictment and then the president's rearranged travel plans. We were bracing for another long night and a busy morning, but so far, the center seems to be holding. Before we let you go, I do want to ask you just briefly about Ebola, which is the other big story we've been talking about this morning. I actually just asked our control room because I didn't remember the president talking much about this. He was asked about it a couple days ago if he was concerned about Ebola and said, I'm concerned about everything, but certainly am. I think, you know, it's been confined right now to Africa, but it's something that had a breakout, and then he. He turned to other individuals to speak more about it. Has there been a lot of messaging from the White House on this? We've heard from the State Department, we've heard a bit from health apparatus, cdc, about how they're trying to prevent the outbreak from coming here. But is this an issue that's even really on the president's radar at this point?
- [07:11]
Kate Sullivan
It's a great question. We've not heard a lot of messaging on Ebola specifically. The president has been asked about it a couple of times, and like he mentioned, he said, you know, sort of he'll make these statements like, well, you know, of course I'm. I'm concerned about everything. And. And I think it's also important to note that, you know, health officials and experts are saying that these really, these cuts to USAID and the United States pulling out of the who, that that has really negatively impacted the response to the, to Ebola on the ground. But so far we have not heard a lot from this about what the plan is and how concerned they are. And so I think it'll be something that we just continue to watch in the coming weeks. But we've not heard a lot from the president on this so far.
- [07:58]
David Gura
All right, Kate Sullivan, thank you very much. Appreciate you joining us here on this Saturday. We're going to keep talking about foreign policy here as President Trump considers what's next with the war in Iran. Former US Officials like General David Petraeus, who served as the director of the CIA and of course was the commander of centcom, are meeting with world leaders to discuss all of the global conflicts we've been talking about over the course of the morning. He has been to Kyiv himself 10 times since Russia invaded Ukraine. And last week he was in the Middle East. On the heels of that trip, I sat down with the general and I asked him how he defines victory in Iran. Thank you very much for taking the time. Appreciate it.
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General David Petraeus
Good to be with you.
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David Gura
David, how do you define victory in Iran now, a couple months into this conflict?
- [08:37]
General David Petraeus
Well, I think actually getting an agreement that would restore freedom of navigation of the Gulf in the Strait of Hormuz without Iran laying claim to it and being able to tax people going through it and ships, I think that's probably the most important goal at this moment. But of course, that doesn't address the other core issues that we have with Iran, such as its nuclear stockpile of almost 1,000 pounds of 60% enriched uranium. That's just one level below weapons grade, the right to enrich in the future their support to proxies in the region that are pretty murderous, the Hamas, Hezbollah, Shia militia in Iraq, Houthis in Yemen and then the missile programs and the rest of this. And I think it's a pretty limited amount of these other concerns that may ever get addressed. But clearly there has to be an agreement to get this straight reopened and to restore freedom of navigation without there might be some arrangement where perhaps there is some modest fee charged that might go in part to Iran, Oman, who knows, and navigation aids or something like this. But that I think is the imperative at this moment in time. And I'm not sure that Iran is going to be willing to do that right now. They are insistent that they are given control of the strait and that they are able to charge tolls for it. That's just, I think, unacceptable. And it may be that we have to go back to war to show them that we're pretty serious about this.
- [10:15]
David Gura
You spent a lot of time in the region. You were in Iraq recently. What have you learned traveling through those countries in recent weeks about how they see this conflict unfolding?
- [10:26]
General David Petraeus
Well, it varies. I mean, someone was asking me, what do the Gulf states think? Well, the Gulf states. No, it's not. It's not aggregate. You can't aggregate. You have to look at each one. Emiratis are particularly outraged. By then, they've been the biggest target of the drones and so forth by Iran, in part perhaps because they're supportive of the US and have the Abraham Accords with Israel. Others have not been on the receiving as much. But Qatars lost 17% of their LNG production capacity for three to five years. The Saudis are actually trying to broker a bit. I actually met with a Crown Prince when I was there last week. They're working through the Pakistanis with whom they have a very close relation. I think it was 8,000 Pakistani troops just deployed to Saudi Arabia to help with Kenner drone and a variety of other security tasks. So it really does depend on the country and so forth. They all want, though, to see Strait of Hormuz reopened and to ensure that there's not going to be a toll or a control by Iran who exerted on that. That's the be all and end all for all of them. But in the wake of it, you're going to see enormous investment in hardening, resilience, redundancy, alternatives to the use of the strait routes out for crude oil and natural gas, other than a ship that goes through the Strait of Hormuz. And this is very, very profound. This is a very big, very big implication, especially if you're a partner in an investment firm like kkr.
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David Gura
So the investment becomes more inward. I imagine for a lot of these nations in the past they might have used their sovereign wealth funds to invest in US companies.
- [12:08]
General David Petraeus
I've always done a lot inward, but I think it's going to be, there's going to be a period of time, a number of years, where the focus really is on what they need to do to reduce their vulnerability in the future, both to attack. So there's going to be a lot of implications for the military, organizational changes, what they buy, how they buy it and all the rest of this, how they train and operate. So there's very, very profound changes out there as a result of this, which we haven't really seen. I don't think it's been much more steady state in a variety of ways for a number of years.
- [12:39]
David Gura
Are these Gulf nations reevaluating their relationship with the US in light of this? Have they felt unprotected or unbacked up?
- [12:46]
General David Petraeus
I'm sure they have. This. These states tried to stay out of this. They tried to take a knee. We were denied access to the base, many of the bases we normally occupy. Now. The truth is we're not as inclined to occupy these bases now that we have seen what the Iranians can throw at them. This is much more than when I was the commander of Central Command, for example, back from 2008 to 2010. Back then, my forward headquarters was at a huge air base outside Doha Al Udid. We had a beautiful headquarters paid for by the Cutterys, $100 million or whatever, but half of it's above ground. And I can assure you the central commander did not do what his predecessors have always done, which is be in the same time zone with all of your forces. He stayed at the base at MacDill Air Force Base outside Tampa. That's where the war has been run from. Not from the forward headquarters. The Combined air Operations center, which functions at that same air base runs the air war for the region and in this case even had the Israeli Air Force as part of it. In many respects they didn't run from out there either because it's vulnerable. They actually ran it from an air base in South Carolina.
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David Gura
How should this conflict reframe the way that we look at US Military readiness? So we see the use of drones in Iran. We've seen them of course, in the Ukraine wars as well. I think there's been some fear that the US has deployed a lot of military might in the Middle east that might leave it vulnerable were China to do something.
- [14:19]
General David Petraeus
Well, there's a number of issues. Well, I've said publicly for a number of years and written about it as well and very recently in the Wall Street Journal of Foreign affairs, the Hill. I was trying to get attention of Congress on an issue that we have not remotely learned all the lessons we should have from the war in Ukraine. That is the future of war right now. It's a war in which you one side alone, Ukraine is using 10,000 drones a day. 90% of the casualties on the Russian side are caused by drones. Tanks can't maneuver anymore. They can't survive armored vehicles. You can't even drive vehicles in the death zone, which is 35 km on either side of the Front lines, which aren't even lines anymore, because drones can fly into trenches and kill people. So their survival positions. So this is just a vast change. And by the way, there's more coming because within a year or two, we're going to see not remotely piloted unmanned systems. And keeping in mind that Ukraine is going from 3.5 million drones manufactured last year to 7 million this year. So they can get up to 20,000 drones per day if they can find the pilots. But in the future, we're going to see autonomous systems, truly autonomous, that do not require a pilot to remotely operate them. And then you face drone swarms. And that is something for which we really don't have a solution. There's high power microwave coming. It's very short range, it's very effective, but you're going to have to have tons of it, given the two to three kilometer range that it has. It's spectacular. Everything drops, but you're going to have to have a lot of them. So that I think hopefully this is going to drive home the absolute imperative of true institutional change in the United States, overhauling the entire concepts of war and operation. The attendant organizational change is sweeping unmanned systems, force equal to the army, navy, air force in Ukraine, for example, change how you train and operate, change how you educate your leaders, and change obviously what you buy and even how you buy it, because you want the opportunity to make software changes every week or two, hardware changes every few weeks. This is a very different model from what we have. Beyond that, we've obviously used a lot of our exquisite munitions, cruise missiles and so forth, and a lot of our exquisite missile interceptors, a very substantial number. And we have really got to get the arsenal of democracy going again. Right now, the arsenal of democracy is in Ukraine, not the United States. And we have got to make huge changes. And the President's doing that. He called together all the defense major companies and so forth, laid out what we need them to do in terms of tripling or quadrupling production of certain systems and so forth.
- [17:13]
David Gura
On Ukraine, does it feel like we are at a tipping point? We had the approval of this very sizable package from the Europeans. We've seen drone attacks now closer to and on Moscow. Are we in a different place now than we were?
- [17:26]
General David Petraeus
Yeah, we are. And I've actually said for almost a year now that I could envision a situation in which if there's sufficient support for the Ukrainians and this 90 billion euros from the European Commission is very, very helpful, probably takes care of them for another year and a Half. And if they can continue to increase the production of drones and pilots and units that can use them and all the rest of that and start going deeper in Russia and inflicting such casualties on Russia that it's maybe the same as what they're recruiting on a monthly basis. You know, they've now taken almost 1.4 million killed and wounded. That's more than we sustained in all of World War II. So. And all of a sudden, last month, the Ukrainians took back more territory than the Russians actually took from them. These are incremental gains, but more for the Ukrainian side and Ukrainians causing staggering amounts of Russian casualties. I just don't think that Russia can continue this certainly next year. At some point, I think Putin's going to look in the mirror, especially if the lifting of sanctions on their oil sales and the price of oil are reimposed and his national welfare fund runs out of money because of being diverted to the military industrial complex. If all that happens, I think you could see a point where Russia needs a cessation of hostilities as much as does Ukraine.
- [18:51]
David Gura
Last question is just about the balance of hard power and soft power at this moment. So we've seen the US Take Nicolas Maduro, bring him to the United States, seen the US Deploy hard power in Iran as well. How good are we with that balance at this point? How important is it to have that equilibrium between the hard power that we're using and the soft power that we're deploying?
- [19:10]
General David Petraeus
It's a really interesting question, and I'd have to say that certainly from my time in uniform at the CIA, that the hard power is much more prominent and the soft power is much reduced. Just the fact that we did away with the Agency for International Development, usaid, that we aren't funding anywhere near what we did, although Congress has actually restored a lot of this. But, you know, we used to say that what solidifies the gains on the battlefield, if you can establish a security foundation, what solidifies it is the soft power. It's providing humanitarian assistance, it's restoring basic services, it's rebuilding damaged homes, schools, clinics, shops, roads, bridges, all of this. So that the people say, you know what? I don't want these guys to come back and jeopardize this. Let's get rid of Al Qaeda. What do they bring on us? Let's get rid of these insurgents, let's marginalize the Shia militia supported by Iran, all this kind of stuff. So that's what soft power does. To be sure, there are many pet rocks in the numbers that you know every congressman or executive branch official heads. We can probably survive very well with all these well meaning programs and so forth. But you can't survive when you're trying to turn security gains into actual solidified gains overall without that kind of soft power. So I'm a bit concerned by that.
- [20:43]
David Gura
General, thank you very much.
- [20:44]
General David Petraeus
Great to be with you, David. Thank you.
- [20:48]
David Gura
Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend, right after this.
- [20:54]
IBM Representative
So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now a global workforce of 300,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94% of common questions, not noise Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business.
- [21:23]
Podcast Announcer
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- [22:29]
General David Petraeus
only, not investment advice.
- [22:31]
Podcast Announcer
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- [22:37]
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- [23:46]
Christina Raffini
An Ebola outbreak in Central Africa is suspected to have killed 176 people and there are about 830 suspected and confirmed cases of the deadly disease. But the head of the World Health Organization says the scale of the epidemic in the Democratic Republic of the Congo is much larger. The US Officially withdrew from the WHO in January, and experts say the public health response to the outbreak has been adversely impacted by the dismantling of usaid.
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David Gura
Estimates from the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation show as spending on Ebola related aid, research and operational support, including government funding delivered directly or through international aid organizations, fell to roughly $186,000 last year. That is down from about $23 million in 2021. Jeremy Koanedyk managed the US response to the Ebola outbreak in West Africa. In 2014. He headed up USAID's response to the the COVID 19. Today he is the President of Refugees International and he joins us now here on this Saturday morning. Jeremy, great to have you with us. And I want to start first with just what you've observed here over the last few weeks. Christina mentioned just a moment ago, there is concern that the facts that we have, the data that we have, aren't painting a complete holistic picture of how wide this outbreak is. Your sense from your experience of how accurate that count seems to be?
- [24:58]
IBM Representative
Well, it's certainly an undercount. The case number is when they announced the outbreak just over a week ago were just under 250. Now that's pushing 800 in the official count. But for cases to go up that quickly, that's not new transmission. That's just beginning to get a sense of how much is already out there. And I don't think we fully have that sense yet. There's not a full contact tracing and case finding operation underway yet. And so there is still a lot out there that we're not seeing. I'm sure it's over a thousand cases by now. It could be multiples of that. This is already on paper the third largest outbreak in history. It's well on its way probably to becoming the second largest given the trajectory that it's on. And I think it's going to be exceptionally difficult to contain.
- [25:48]
Christina Raffini
I know you're. When you're trying to fight an outbreak, you're fighting not just disease, but you're also fighting misinformation and disinformation. And talk to us a little bit about how hard that battle is as well, because I was reading about this question crowd that set fire to one of the few functioning hospitals that treats Ebola specifically in the eastern drc. And partially that was because there was mishandling. They didn't understand why they couldn't have the body back. There's an issue with burial customs where they're washing the bodies and then that water is being passed around. And it's easy transmission. How do you fight this on two fronts, especially when you're short staffed?
- [26:21]
IBM Representative
It's such an important point. And it's easy to get caught in this idea that we just need a health response, we just need clinics. Secretary Rubio has talked about setting up 50 health clinics. And you know, like the health clinic piece of this is important. It's also really difficult to scale. And of course you need for those clinics to mean anything. People need to have confidence that they can use them. They have to have confidence and trust that they will get treatment, that the treatment that they need, and that they understand that that's what they need to do. And that all really comes down to trust. And so an outbreak response, the foundation of an effective outbreak response is trust between the communities who are at risk and the health responses or the operational and health response itself. And we saw this the last time there was a major outbreak of Ebola in eastern Congo. That was in 2018-19. That was the second largest in history after the West Africa one that I worked on in 2014. And we saw these kinds of patterns. It's not surprising to me that people are, our community members are behaving this way because they haven't, you know, they don't understand the disease. They're not necessarily familiar with it. They don't necessarily believe everything they're being told. There's a lot of skepticism. This is a part of the country that has been affected by war for decades that is quite often quite hostile towards the central government. And so when they have the Ministry of Health from the central government telling them something, they won't necessarily take that at face value. So that's going to be a huge hill to climb.
- [27:54]
David Gura
Jeremy, I want to ask you about the role that the US Is playing or isn't playing at this point in time. So we've seen the US As Christina mentioned, withdrawal from the who, not playing an active role in that organization any longer. I mentioned in the last hour we were talking to our colleague Jason Gale, who covers public health, that we've both been kind of inundated with emails from the State Department over the course of this last week detailing what the US has done here, noting that the cdc, CDC is running point here and saying that the overarching objective here is to keep Ebola from coming into the United States. How different is the response posture from the US this time around than what you lived through in 2014? Jason Gale mentioning to us that Tom Frieden, who ran the cdc, said that the Ebola outbreak was a full time job back when he was in that position. And here we're in a position where a lot of these key marquee positions in the public health apparatus in the US are unfilled or filled by interim appointments.
- [28:48]
IBM Representative
Yeah, and Dr. Frieden and I worked very closely together on that response. We actually early, early in the US Response traveled out there together to Liberia to assess firsthand and to meet with the president of the country. There is just dramatically less capacity in the US Government to tackle a challenge like this than there was even two years ago. We had learned a lot of lessons from that 2014 Ebola outbreak. At that time, of course, USAID existed. There was a very robust cdc. We were a member of the World Health Organization. And all of those things were really important. Usaid, CDC and WHO worked together hand in glove to lead the international response to that outbreak and then reprise that again in the large outbreak in the same area of eastern Congo in 2018, 19. And that's mostly gone now. That partnership, CDC is a shell of what it was. Particularly their global capabilities have really been degraded. They're still there. I mean, look, the people are excellent. The people have tremendous knowledge. But will they be listened to by the people running U.S. health institutions right now? That's a big question. USAID, of course, is completely gone and the U.S. is no longer a member of WHO. And often CDC staff are barred from even speaking to who, so that that partnership has been just demolished.
- [30:18]
Christina Raffini
I want to read some statements, as David mentioned, we've been getting from the State Department saying it's false to claim that USAID reform has negatively impacted our ability to respond to Ebola. In fact, by bringing USAID Global Health functions under a new bureau at the State Department, our efforts are more aligned and effective. You also mentioned on Tuesday the State Department announced they'd be funding these 50 clinics to aid in the DRC. But the top civil servant in Uganda's Ministry of Health said in an interview that the government was not aware of the pledge. And it wasn't immediately clear where those $13 million were, part of where that pledge was going or where those clinics were being set up. Where is the breakdown there? Is this something that would usually happen through who, these organizations? What is the line of communication and, and is this something you can just stand up or does this need logistics and things on the ground that, as we've talked about, don't really exist?
- [31:07]
IBM Representative
Yeah, I, I, I really am disheartened by that whole exchange because you see a few things there first. So it was my job in 2014 to oversee the planning and development and funding of about 30 Ebola treatment units that we stood up across Western Africa, West Africa in that, that outbreak. Those things were wildly expensive. It cost us hundreds of millions of dollars to stand up and operate those things. So $13 million is barely a start to what it's going to cost to get this under control. But I think, and they're hugely complex, it took us months to stand those up because Ebola clinics are highly specialized, highly specialized facilities because they are built around very high end infection prevention and control because you don't want to enable more transmissions. The whole point of those facilities, they're very different from a normal health clinic and very difficult to set up. But really importantly, we did all that in close partnership with the ministries of health in the countries we were working with. And the last thing we would have ever wanted to do is catch them off guard with an announcement we hadn't discussed with them first and didn't have their buy in on. So to see that sort of an exchange between the US Secretary of State and the end and one of the affected governments just, I think speaks to the lack of coordination, the lack of engagement between the US and those, and those governments. And again, that's the sort of function that USAID would have facilitated because there were deep, deep webs of relationships between the USAID health personnel in those countries and their counterparts and ministries of health. And of course, that's all gone now.
- [32:45]
David Gura
Jeremy, let me ask you as we wrap up here, how worried you are just about the circumstances that we're seeing in Africa right now. This is a different strain than we've seen before there isn't a treatment for it. As you said, the numbers seem to be under counts of what's likely the case there in the drc. How concerned are you about the state of things now and where they're likely to go? And can you say unequivocally that without having usaid, without having the public health apparatus in place that we've had in the past, that's likely to make this outbreak much, much worse, it's going to
- [33:18]
IBM Representative
make the response much harder. And when you have a slower and less effective response, of course the outbreak lasts for longer and it spreads further. And ultimately a delayed or underpowered response just makes the ultimate job of containment harder, more expensive, more difficult. It will take longer. I fear that's what we're going to see. We're going into this with 4 strikes against us outbreak has the most momentum upon discovery of any Ebola outbreak in history. It's in eastern Congo, which is a conflict zone with three and a half million displaced people. And we know from the 201819 outbreak it's very, very hard to fight Ebola under those conditions that one took two years to get under control. There are no countermeasures and no vaccine for this, unlike the normal Ebola. Not normal, but the kind of main Ebola strain that we've seen, which is the Zaire version. And of course we're doing this without usaid, without the US Being part of WHO and with a weakened cdc. So all of those things are going to make this job much harder.
- [34:18]
David Gura
Jeremy, I hope you'll come back and we can keep in touch throughout all of this. Jeremy Kannandyk, who's the president of Refugees International with a host of experience in public health for the US Government. Thank you very much for your time on this Saturday.
- [34:30]
Christina Raffini
Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend right after this.
- [34:37]
Podcast Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public. Public is an investing platform that offers access to stocks, options, bonds and crypto. And they've also integrated AI with tools that can assist investors in building customized portfolios. One of these tools is called generated Assets. It allows you to turn your ideas into investable indexes. So let's say you're interested in something specific like biotech companies with high R and D spend, small cap stocks with improving operating margins or the S&P 500 minus high debt companies. Chances are there isn't an ETF that fits your exact criteria. But on public you just type in a prompt and their AI screens thousands of stocks and builds a one of a kind index. You can even backtest it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks, go to public.com market and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com market ad paid for by Public Holdings Brokerage Services by Public Investing Member FINRA SIPC Advisory Services by Public Advisors SEC Registered Advisor crypto services by ZeroHash sample prompts are for illustrative purposes
- [35:42]
General David Petraeus
only, not investment advice.
- [35:44]
Podcast Announcer
All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures@public.com disclosures running a small
- [35:50]
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- [37:35]
David Gura
Memorial Day marking the unofficial start of summer, and for many Americans, that means backyard cookouts, road trips and burgers on the grill. I guess it means, sorry, you're going
- [37:43]
Christina Raffini
to have to do my part too.
- [37:44]
David Gura
Keep going. All right, as restaurants across the country prepare for one of the biggest, busiest stretches of the year, we have Patrick Conlon, president of Wayback Burgers, here with us on set in New York. He's brought a bevy of burgers, chicken nuggets. What is this light what is this fluorescent blue drink we've got? Hoist that up.
- [38:00]
Patrick Conlon
That is blue raspberry lemonade.
- [38:02]
Christina Raffini
I don't think that color is found in nature, but I'm excited to find
- [38:05]
David Gura
it, excited to have it.
- [38:06]
Patrick Conlon
That's to celebrate America's 250th anniversary.
- [38:09]
David Gura
Let me just ask you first a broad question, just about how the burger biz is doing. We hear a lot of talk of the K shaped economy. Obviously a lot of people under strain because of rising energy prices. How is the business doing in light of all that? How's the consumer doing as you see him and her?
- [38:21]
Patrick Conlon
It's doing well. I mean, we took a, it was a little slow last year and coming into this year, but our sales way back have been up since March and people love burgers. Just a nostalgic feel. And this weekend starts really the kickoff, like you mentioned earlier, for the burger season.
- [38:39]
Christina Raffini
Where are you guys most located and where are your big markets? Are there specific places where you're seeing people are really going all in on fast food?
- [38:45]
Patrick Conlon
Well, we're fast casual, so a little bit fast casual.
- [38:47]
Christina Raffini
Apologies.
- [38:47]
IBM Representative
No, no.
- [38:48]
Patrick Conlon
A little bit higher quality, nicer atmosphere, better experience. We may have a relationship with the guests, but we have, we're in 35 states across the US big concentration in the northeast, southeast, Southwest. And we just opened up our in our 35th state. We just opened up in Iowa a couple of weeks ago.
- [39:08]
Christina Raffini
But fast casual had a bit of a slump too for a minute there. Are you, are you seeing a rebound or did that impact you? You? I mean, I know we joke there, slop bowl places like Chipotle and Cava and anything that comes in a bowl was having a really hard time. Did you see that slump as well or did you feel like you guys were in a good sweet spot where it's a product everybody knows, but in a slightly, as you say, elevated place to be.
- [39:31]
Patrick Conlon
Yeah, we saw it. I mean, no question that the consumers were looking for a value, but value is also a better product. So we did some things late last year to enhance a value proposition for the guests that come into our restaurants and continue that today.
- [39:48]
Lisa
What did you do?
- [39:49]
Patrick Conlon
We did some meal deals and we introduced wraps for a short time, limited time offer, which was a lower priced item. And then just recently we introduced the chicken nuggets, even though we're a burger chain and I think you're enjoying those on Memorial Day weekend.
- [40:06]
Christina Raffini
As someone who doesn't eat beef, I appreciate the chicken nuggets, so I'm here for it.
- [40:09]
Lisa
Breakfast nugget, Lisa, Because, I mean, this is.
- [40:12]
General David Petraeus
Can we zoom in on a hearty burger?
- [40:15]
David Gura
Okay.
- [40:16]
Lisa
And I know I go to the supermarket, I slap burgers on the grill. They're not cheap nowadays.
- [40:20]
Patrick Conlon
No.
- [40:21]
Lisa
They've gone up in price. So how are you guys?
- [40:23]
David Gura
She is our blooming sweet protein correspondent.
- [40:27]
Christina Raffini
A lot of protein, but.
- [40:28]
Lisa
But it's. They're not cheap and the prices have gone up. So how do you deal with that? Do you have to pass the price on to the consumer? Consumer, how are you working it?
- [40:36]
Patrick Conlon
You have to pass some of the price on to the consumer, but sometimes, sometimes you may have to eat a little bit of it. We've been very lucky with our beef supplier that this year there was a minimal increase. So it didn't hurt our franchisees and we didn't really pass a large price increase on to the consumer. In 2026.
- [40:56]
David Gura
I've got a question just about. Please, Lisa, take your time.
- [41:00]
Christina Raffini
It's not like you're on television camera
- [41:02]
David Gura
trained on Lisa for that one.
- [41:04]
Christina Raffini
Oh, my goodness.
- [41:05]
David Gura
We have seen maybe not one of your direct competitors, a fast food chain that has a king as a mascot, do a very public campaign saying they were reinventing themselves, reinventing what the burger is and how it's cooked and what people think they're getting there in the industry, broadly, how much does that happen? I mean, you're holding onto a lot of nostalgia the way things happen. People go to you for a certain reason when you introduce something like wraps or chicken nuggets. How much thought do you put into branching out into something that people might not know you? And is there a chance that, that as you move away from your core business that that could backfire?
- [41:33]
Patrick Conlon
Sure. We have to be very careful about what we introduce. That is not one of our core items. And we do a lot of research throughout the year of what's trending. We don't look to be the trendiest restaurant company out there, but we want to look at what's on trend. So we'll look at things like chicken nuggets. We'll look at the wraps as a value proposition. Do you. Are we ever going to bring in, you know, some crazy, really out of the out of the box item? I don't think so.
- [42:02]
David Gura
Quinoa bowls? Yeah, probably not. Okay.
- [42:04]
Christina Raffini
No tofu.
- [42:05]
Patrick Conlon
We're still. Even though we have chicken on our menu, we're still. 85% of our entrees are burgers.
- [42:10]
Lisa
Beef.
- [42:11]
David Gura
Okay.
- [42:11]
Christina Raffini
Margins in the restaurant business are legendarily thin. As you look at the year you know, obviously we're Bloomberg and we talk about money and economics and, and what's going on in the Middle east impacts everything. The downstream effect is going to happen. I don't know if you've seen that yet, but you know, we're going into planting seasons where farmers are going to have to pay more for fertilizer. I know you have transportation costs. That's fuel. What are you worried about? What are you looking at? Where are you kind of already seeing those prices spike?
- [42:36]
Patrick Conlon
So far we haven't seen anything spike. We lock into the majority of our, our core items that we sell in the restaurants or locked in on yearly contracts so that we do before the beginning of the year. So we're good for this year. Unless there's a fuel surcharge could happen from the food distributor to the restaurant, which would one or two dollars a delivery. So not a huge impact yet. The more concern is the impact on the consumer coming into the restaurant. And if you're paying X amount more for gas today, are you going to cut back on what you're going to eat?
- [43:13]
Christina Raffini
Yeah.
- [43:13]
Patrick Conlon
So so far, Knockwood, it hasn't affected us. I think it more affects people in coffee business. And you can cut out going out and getting a coffee a couple of days a week or an ice cream cone. You still have to eat lunch, you still have to eat dinner.
- [43:26]
David Gura
Pat, I go back to something you said at the top, which is the start of burger season. So we have this conceit here. Memorial Day, people are out grilling as season starts. Is that borne out in your business? Is there a seasonality to the fast casual business? Or do you see kind of a common, constant trend of, of customers throughout the year?
- [43:40]
Patrick Conlon
The constant trend, really? Our business starts picking up right after Valentine's Day and goes through October. And then the, the holidays dip down a little bit and then we wait for Valentine's Day.
- [43:51]
Lisa
Again, I asked about the chicken.
- [43:55]
David Gura
I was just waiting for that to happen.
- [43:56]
Christina Raffini
Thank you.
- [43:57]
David Gura
I'm glad that Christine.
- [43:58]
Patrick Conlon
Well, tell us how the burger is.
- [43:58]
David Gura
How's the burger?
- [43:59]
Lisa
The burger's phenomenal. But you mentioned chicken. So is that more of more pressure? Because we hear about the chicken wars, you know, everything between Chick Fil a and the Popeyes, like that's the big thing. Was that the pressure you felt to kind of bring, you know what, or did it come from your customers and say, you know what?
- [44:15]
Christina Raffini
Or is it annoying people like me who can't eat beef and someone to come to it?
- [44:19]
Patrick Conlon
Good point. We didn't want to be even though we're way back burgers, we didn't want to be solely that narrowly focused on burgers because if there's people in an office of four people and three people want to go for burgers and one person says I don't, I had a burger yesterday or I don't eat burgers, they could sway the other three people. So we wanted to have, we didn't want to get that veto vote. So we wanted to have we've always had chicken on our menu. We used to have chicken, we have a chicken sandwich and we have, we had chicken tenders. But then one of our longtime vendors came to us with a, a whole meat chicken nugget and that's a whole white breast meat. So I couldn't stop eating them when we tested them in the office.
- [45:00]
Christina Raffini
Put these in front of me. Is in trouble. We got about 30 seconds before we go. What's your favorite menu item? What's the thing you like to eat?
- [45:07]
Patrick Conlon
My favorite menu item is either the classic that you're eating today, the way back classic, or usually any one of our LTO burgers, limited time offer burgers that we come out with. We just came off a sweet and spicy melt, which was double double patty burger with pepper jack cheese and a pineapple jam.
- [45:26]
Lisa
All right.
- [45:27]
David Gura
Thank you very much for coming and thanks for bringing all this. If Lisa drinks this, this blue drink, that'll really be something to behold.
- [45:34]
Lisa
Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend right after this.
- [45:41]
Podcast Announcer
Support for the show comes from Public. Public is an investing platform that offers access to stocks, options, bonds and crypto. And they've also integrated AI with tools that can assist investors in building customized portfolios. One of these tools is called generated Assets. It allows you to turn your ideas into investable indexes. So let's say you're interested in something specific like biotech companies with high R and D spend small cap stocks with improving operating margins or the S&P 500 minus high debt companies. Chances are there isn't an ETF that fits your exact criteria. But on public you just type in a prompt and their AI screens thousands of stocks and builds a one of a kind index. You can even backtest it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks, go to public.com market and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com market ad paid for by Public Holdings Brokerage Services by public investing member FINRA, SIPC advisory services by public advisors, SEC registered advisor crypto services by ZeroHash. Sample prompts are for illustrative purposes only, not investment advice. All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures@public.com disclosures being a small
- [46:54]
Chase for Business Advertiser
business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own. That's why they make business growth their priority. The Chase team takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now, and where you want to go. Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind so you can bring your ideas to life. From banking to payment acceptance to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools looking for tips and advice. Their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive. See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for Business. Learn more@chase.com business chase for business Make More of what's yours the Chase Mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply JPMorgan Chase Bank NA Member FDIC Copyright 2026 JPMorgan Chase Co. You need to make
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- [48:34]
Christina Raffini
All right, welcome back. Now for this weekend, have you had
- [48:36]
David Gura
that drink yet, either of you?
- [48:39]
Lisa
No, no, she's going for it.
- [48:42]
Christina Raffini
Now for this weekend's point of news quiz. It's tasty. It's very sweet. I also have my emotional sport French fries. Lisa is going to go through our point of news quiz and I am going to try to retain my streak of beating David Gura and I think
- [48:56]
David Gura
that streak's been broken in recent weeks.
- [48:57]
Christina Raffini
It's not been good. Not been a good run. So Lisa, I'm looking at you.
- [49:00]
David Gura
I'm looking at you regain.
- [49:02]
Lisa
I'm hook you up.
- [49:03]
Christina Raffini
Okay, two women on the show. I need you to like telepath me some answers.
- [49:06]
Lisa
Girl power. Okay, here we go. Three categories. Are you ready? If you're playing at home, we ask them three categories. They have 30 chips in front of them and they place their bets depending on how confident they feel. About each category. All right, so the first category is retail.
- [49:21]
David Gura
Retail. Okay.
- [49:22]
Lisa
Second is crypto. And third is obituaries.
- [49:26]
David Gura
Obituaries ending on a high note.
- [49:28]
Lisa
Lisa, now you've had this, like, streak where you go 10 across the board.
- [49:32]
David Gura
Yeah. And it's been working with that. I think it's the return.
- [49:34]
Christina Raffini
Yeah. Because it wasn't working. And now that he's stolen my tactic beating.
- [49:37]
David Gura
And I'm going to emulate it thus, because it actually has boosted my confidence greatly. And I've won, I think, two weeks.
- [49:44]
Christina Raffini
I have emotional support. French fries. You can't hurt me today. Lisa, what we got?
- [49:47]
Lisa
Okay, let's start with retail.
- [49:48]
David Gura
Retail.
- [49:49]
Lisa
Chinese e commerce giant Shein is acquiring which San Francisco based retailer for $100 million.
- [49:56]
Christina Raffini
I feel like David knows this one too.
- [49:58]
Lisa
I know you were just talking about this the other day.
- [50:00]
David Gura
I know.
- [50:00]
Christina Raffini
I literally was pushed a segment on this. Yeah.
- [50:02]
Lisa
This is like the fight in my house. I say sheen. My daughter says, no, it's Sheen. No, it's Shein.
- [50:07]
Christina Raffini
Oh, yeah, I think that's right.
- [50:08]
Lisa
Correct. Mama's always be on Mama.
- [50:11]
David Gura
Mateo over here.
- [50:13]
Lisa
Let's flip it and see if you guys Everlane. Very good.
- [50:16]
Christina Raffini
Yes.
- [50:17]
Lisa
You both have it. They're buying it for about $100 million.
- [50:19]
David Gura
Tell me about this brand, because I confess, I don't know what Ever Land is.
- [50:22]
Christina Raffini
It was really big a couple years ago, and its big thing was sustainable fashion. And it's gotten less and less sustainable. And the quality, in my opinion, as someone who used to buy it, has gone down a lot. And now they are selling to one of the most legendarily unsustainable companies.
- [50:36]
David Gura
Yeah, I know the buzzwords.
- [50:38]
Christina Raffini
You're doing so well. It's a very controversial.
- [50:40]
David Gura
Sad about this. You're sad about that.
- [50:42]
Christina Raffini
You've already, a couple of years ago, have surpassed already as to most of my friends, so good luck to them.
- [50:48]
Lisa
We've got Shein packages coming to our door all the time.
- [50:53]
David Gura
Cities in China.
- [50:54]
IBM Representative
All right.
- [50:55]
Lisa
It is all right. You want to go to crypto?
- [50:56]
David Gura
Absolutely.
- [50:57]
Christina Raffini
You feeling.
- [50:58]
Lisa
You're feeling good?
- [50:58]
David Gura
Okay.
- [50:59]
Christina Raffini
Okay.
- [50:59]
Lisa
Okay. Here we go. Before Bitcoin Depot had filed for bankruptcy, it was once North America's largest operator of which crypto transaction tool. What's the name of that tool?
- [51:11]
Christina Raffini
I thought this was thing. Yes.
- [51:14]
David Gura
Crypto transaction tool.
- [51:16]
Lisa
Yes. The largest operator of which crypto transaction tool.
- [51:20]
David Gura
All right, whatever. Fine. All right.
- [51:22]
Lisa
You want to try it?
- [51:23]
David Gura
I'm ready.
- [51:23]
Lisa
Okay.
- [51:24]
David Gura
Blockchain.
- [51:24]
Lisa
Blockchain. No, Christina. ATMs. Yes, it is.
- [51:28]
Christina Raffini
Is it that People just don't need it to be cash anymore.
- [51:30]
Lisa
They were the largest operator of crypto ATMs.
- [51:33]
David Gura
You know, I've always enjoyed seeing those and wonder who actually uses them.
- [51:36]
Christina Raffini
I really know one.
- [51:37]
Lisa
I don't. They're just saying the business model is not sustainable enough anymore, so.
- [51:40]
David Gura
Well, I could have told him that. Nobody asked me. I use an ATM all the time.
- [51:43]
Lisa
I do.
- [51:44]
David Gura
I don't use, like, a bitcoin atm, though.
- [51:46]
Lisa
Exactly.
- [51:46]
Christina Raffini
You guys carry cash, like, regularly?
- [51:48]
David Gura
Yeah. You know, you got a tip?
- [51:50]
Lisa
Couple bucks for tips.
- [51:51]
David Gura
My kid goes to lunch, I have to pay for his. Out to lunch in cash. Yes.
- [51:56]
Christina Raffini
Oh, wow.
- [51:57]
Lisa
My daughter just uses the apple pitch cap.
- [52:01]
David Gura
Slippery slope. We got to learn how to tell time. We talked about that earlier with an analogy. Watch. And you got to learn how to count your change, I think, or you can be taken advantage of in a retail setting.
- [52:10]
Christina Raffini
This is a good point. All right. All right, we're even.
- [52:13]
David Gura
Sorry, I lost that one. Take those 10.
- [52:15]
Lisa
Oh, no. Oh, no.
- [52:16]
Christina Raffini
You lost. Oh, you lost.
- [52:18]
David Gura
I don't want it to be.
- [52:19]
Lisa
All right, Lisa.
- [52:21]
Christina Raffini
Lisa.
- [52:22]
Lisa
Okay, okay, here we go.
- [52:22]
David Gura
Obituaries.
- [52:24]
Christina Raffini
Not feeling good about this card.
- [52:25]
Lisa
Okay, obituaries. Here we go. Democratic Representative Barney Frank died on May 20. What? What year was he first elected to Congress?
- [52:34]
David Gura
Well, that's ridiculous.
- [52:35]
Lisa
Lisa. Okay, it was an easier question, but they changed it to make it harder for you guys.
- [52:39]
Christina Raffini
Control room.
- [52:42]
Lisa
What year? Okay, okay. I can accept two answers.
- [52:46]
David Gura
Two answers?
- [52:47]
Christina Raffini
I have absolutely no idea.
- [52:48]
David Gura
What does that mean?
- [52:49]
Lisa
If you get close to it, maybe I'll throw you a chip or two.
- [52:52]
David Gura
Okay, great. I'm ready. 1978.
- [52:55]
Christina Raffini
I said 1987.
- [52:57]
Lisa
Oh, it's 1980 also.
- [52:59]
Chase for Business Advertiser
I would have accepted.
- [53:00]
David Gura
You feel very close. This is like if we were a competing game show. I got the lower number. You know, it's like the $1.
- [53:06]
Christina Raffini
Just give her your chips.
- [53:08]
Lisa
So the election was actually in 1980. He began the term in January 3, 1981. So either one I would have taken. Who do we got here? Closing. Okay, Christina, up, up, up, up, up. All right.
- [53:19]
Christina Raffini
We got a bonus.
- [53:20]
Lisa
We got the bonus. And it's Beauty Girl.
- [53:22]
Christina Raffini
Yes.
- [53:23]
Lisa
Sorry, David.
- [53:26]
David Gura
I can't wait. We'll get Elena Pipina bag. We'll do, like, an investigation of the dramatic collusion that's been happening in this game. I feel like we'll get. We'll get the equities team in here.
- [53:34]
Christina Raffini
Lisa, continue.
- [53:35]
Lisa
We're happy. We got burgers and fries. Beauty. Okay. South Korean beauty giant. What? Young is coming to the US Its Name contains a food that comes in manzanilla variety.
- [53:48]
Christina Raffini
Oh, wait, that comes in what?
- [53:52]
Lisa
It comes in a manzanilla variety.
- [53:55]
Christina Raffini
I have absolutely no idea.
- [53:57]
Lisa
So beauty Giant Blank Young.
- [54:01]
General David Petraeus
Okay, okay.
- [54:02]
Lisa
No, that doesn't. I know. It's. I didn't know.
- [54:04]
David Gura
I feel. I'm gonna. I'm gonna Write to the U.S. how about face? Face Beauty.
- [54:08]
Lisa
No, no, no, no. Oh, she's erasing. She's erasing. Wait, wait. You can't erase. You showed yours already.
- [54:14]
David Gura
I'm done.
- [54:15]
Christina Raffini
Soul.
- [54:15]
David Gura
Seoul Soul.
- [54:16]
Lisa
No.
- [54:17]
David Gura
Olive Young olives, Manzanilla olives.
- [54:19]
Lisa
No, no, no.
- [54:20]
Christina Raffini
Nothing. But no. Happy to have some more K Beauty.
- [54:23]
Lisa
Korean beauty. Man, I know more K Beauty.
- [54:24]
David Gura
All right, well, we're gonna forget this happened, but I'm gonna blame it on this Christina fluorescent soda that you guys are gonna have.
- [54:32]
Christina Raffini
I'm gonna put my neon orange chips for our radio listeners next to my neon blue soda. And I'm gonna take a victory sip.
- [54:39]
Lisa
There we go.
- [54:40]
David Gura
We're gonna check your.
- [54:41]
Christina Raffini
Lisa, thank you very much. I'll come back to my burger.
- [54:43]
David Gura
All right, you enjoy. You can test your knowledge on all 10 questions. If these three weren't enough, there are seven more. You can take the point of news quiz@Bloomberg.com pointed
- [54:54]
Christina Raffini
thanks for joining us on today's Bloomberg this Weekend podcast. Don't forget to tune in live for the show every Saturday and Sunday morning starting at 7am Eastern.
- [55:02]
David Gura
We're on Bloomberg Television radio and the Bloomberg Business app, bringing you unique takes and in depth interviews on news, politics, lifestyle and culture.
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