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- [00:00]
Chase Business Advertiser
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- [00:36]
Tech Industry Commentator
Okay, before we get into it, little side note for the IT leaders listening in. I was reading up on a Microsoft Commission survey the other day and learned that teams using Windows 11 Pro PCs report 62% fewer security incidents compared to Windows 10 PCs, including three times fewer firmware attacks.
- [00:56]
Technology Analyst
Pretty significant. With security built in, you'll have AI ready it that sets you up for operational efficiency and as well as long term resilience.
- [01:05]
Tech Industry Commentator
Upgrade to Windows 11 Pro@WindowsMeansBusiness.com if you
- [01:10]
Cincinnati Insurance Advertiser
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- [01:47]
Christine Raffini
Bloomberg Audio Studios podcasts Radio News welcome to the Bloomberg this Weekend Podcast with David Gura, Christina
- [01:58]
Cincinnati Insurance Advertiser
Raffini and Lisa Mateo.
- [02:02]
Christine Raffini
Thanks for joining us for today's selection of conversations from the show.
- [02:06]
Technology Analyst
You can listen to our favorite discussions right here on the podcast, but also make sure to join us live every Saturday and Sunday morning starting at 7am Eastern.
- [02:14]
Lisa Mateo
We're on Bloomberg Television Radio and the Bloomberg Business App, bringing you unique takes and in depth interviews on news, politics, lifestyle and culture.
- [02:26]
Tim Stanwick
Well, just a couple hours ago, Vice President JD Vance, Special Envoy Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner met with Pakistan's Prime Minister ahead of these highly anticipated peace talks between the US And Iran. We're going to go live to Pakistan in a moment, but joining us now, Bloomberg's Israel Bureau Chief Ethan Branar and White House Correspondent Catherine Lucey. Ethan, I want to start with you because in Pakistan we have representatives from Iran and representatives from the United States, but not there and not represented is anyone from Israel. Is it possible for this war to end without Israel's participation in peace talks?
- [03:00]
Ethan Brauner
Sure I mean, I think that, you know, Israel is being informed by the United States on a sort of a side channel. So I don't think that's a problem. It would have been surprising if Israel would have shown up in Pakistan. There are no diplomatic relations between Pakistan and Israel would have been complicated. And this is, you know, negotiation with the United States and Iran. So I don't think that is the biggest problem. No.
- [03:24]
Christine Raffini
So what is the biggest problem? I mean, there are quite a few, but.
- [03:28]
Ethan Brauner
Well, there are many, many problems. Yeah. I mean, Israel's presence at the table, I guess, is just not a very high one on the list. I mean, the biggest problem, of course, is that the United States and Israel launched this war six weeks ago and thought they could effectively take apart that regime and force change and found that the regime was far more resistant than they expected. And the regime's survival, even thriving on some level in Iran, has allowed it to take control of the Strait of Hormuz, to sort of have a stranglehold over a large part of the world economy through that, and has, you know, caused enormous political problems for President Trump. So he would like to find a way to wrap this up. We, you know, assuming you take seriously the goals he set for this war along with Israel, those have not been met. So to end it and not reach those goals, what does that mean for the security issues that he raised? On the other hand, to not end this war and allow oil and fertilizer and all the other issues that we're facing to go forward when most people did not consider this a necessary war also seems unlikely. I would say it's very gloomy picture, frankly, from the point of view of the United States.
- [04:51]
Christine Raffini
Catherine, I want to go to you because I think I know the answer to this, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Do we have any more information from the White House about when these talks are going to start? Because it's already getting quite late in the afternoon in Pakistan, what the format of them is going to be and how long they're willing to stay there. Are we still planning on only one day of talks, regardless of the outcome?
- [05:12]
Lisa Mateo
Yeah.
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Catherine Lucey
Thanks so much. I mean, you know, we don't have a lot of information about how this is going to unfold. Obviously, we know that Vice President Vance is over there to lead this, you know, with Jared Kushner and Witkoff. They have already had this initial meeting with Pakistan, but we're still waiting, honestly, for more information about how this is going to unfold, how this is going to proceed. And this is a very high stakes moment for the vice president. We've never really seen him play this kind of role on the world stage before. It's kind of a classic vice president assignment, which is high risk but potentially some reward. It would help him, obviously, if he can help broker some kind of deal here as he looks ahead potentially to 2028. But he could get saddled with a lot of blame if these there are no wins out of these talks today.
- [06:03]
Katie Nastro
Yeah.
- [06:04]
President Trump (quoted)
Yeah.
- [06:04]
Tim Stanwick
Katherine, I want to talk a little bit more about that and J.D. vance's role here. There was that reporting earlier this week from the New York Times, Maggie Haberman and Jonathan Swan about what actually happened in the Situation ROOM and who felt what about this war. And J.D. vance was sort of alone in his opposition to this. And he served in the military. He's against these forever wars. He is opposed and has been opposed to different conflicts. I'm just curious what that means to send him as the lead negotiator, somebody who, you know, from based on reporting and what we've read, really didn't want to be attacking Iran in the first place.
- [06:42]
Catherine Lucey
Well, certainly we know that, you know, in those private conversations, J.D. vance was, you know, among the more skeptical or certainly someone who wanted to sort of have a more robust debate, bring more information to the president. And yes, he, he has a history of raising concerns and expressing anxiety about forever wars. So that is that is a key dynamic going into this. And the president was influenced by a lot of folks from outside of the White House as he made the decision to do this. Also important to note that J.D. vance has been very clear publicly that once the president made the decision, he was with him. He has, he has defended it. He has, he has been vocal about that and that he is, you know, part of his I mean, the thing is that sending him over there really sort of saddles him with it. Right. It puts it around his neck as well. And there's no way for him to distance himself from this war now, given that he is now really sort of taking a leading role in the diplomacy here.
- [07:40]
Christine Raffini
Ethan, I want to ask you about the role of nationalism because this is something we've seen time and time again where countries who may not like their leader go into a conflict, go into war and kind of close ranks behind them. And what I'm hearing from Iranian friends and people I know who have family there is that they hated this regime. Many of the ones I've spoken to are not friends of the ayatollah of the clerics they are happy to see them go. But the way the US has gone about this conflict is not making friends and winning over hearts and minds. And Iranians are almost starting to close ring. Do you think the situation, scorched earth tactics we've seen in some places from the US have made it harder for a moderate regime to come in and take hold in Tehran?
- [08:21]
Ethan Brauner
I do. I think the things you said are very likely to be true. I mean this has been, this was even a year and plus ago in the 12 day war in June of 25. The question is, you know, raised both here and in the United States and generally that this is a very unpopular regime. They were barely able to keep the lights on in Iran. There were droughts. This is a country that's oil rich and spending vast sums of money on Hezbollah and the Houthis and Hamas instead of on its own people. And obviously the idea was that people are unhappy and want to get rid of it. But if an outside force comes and starts to bomb the place, the natural reaction is to gather around those, you know, your own people. And it looks like that's kind of what's happened. I mean, you know, it's also true that this government in Iran is I think was far more skilled at decentralizing its command structure on it's vast country, almost the size of Western Europe, 90 plus million people. You know, this was not a Venezuela Mark 2 situation. And the Israelis and the Americans, at least the Americans led by President Trump seemed to hope and believe that it might be. And I think that you're right. It's all kinds of things have happened that not what they expected, including a sense among a bunch of Iranians that we don't have any polls, just the impressions that you've laid out that they are angrier at the outsiders than they are at their own government.
- [09:50]
Tim Stanwick
Hey Ethan, we've spoken to you quite a bit over the last two and a half years and one thing that we've learned is that you've spent more time in your bomb shelter along with your fellow Israeli people who live in Israel and your family than you would have liked to, especially over the last few weeks. And I'm wondering if that has changed and how much that has changed since Tuesday and since this fragile cease fire.
- [10:14]
Ethan Brauner
Well, it's completely changed. I still this, I'm you're looking at me in my bomb shelter because it happens to be my study. But after the cease fire was announced there has been very little. There was a Hezbollah missile that reached Tel Aviv the night before Last, but generally people are out. I just actually came back from the seaside where I had lunch, and lots and lots and lots of people are out. So there is a den, generally a sense of security now in the, in this moment of ceasefire, for sure.
- [10:51]
Christine Raffini
Catherine. Meanwhile, the President, who has dispatched his vice president overseas, is not in Washington this weekend. He's in Florida for. He had an event in Charlottesville. He went on to Florida for, I believe, a UFC fight. And then we have some comments from him on this whole thing before he got on his plane to Virginia on Friday.
- [11:10]
President Trump (quoted)
The strait will open up. If we just left. The strait is going to. Otherwise they make no money. So the strait's going to open, but what we have is no nuclear weapon. But we'll open the strait anyway. Don't forget, we don't use the strait. Other countries use the strait. So we do have other countries coming up and they'll help out, but we don't, we don't use. Won't be easy. It won't be.
- [11:32]
Technology Analyst
I would say this.
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President Trump (quoted)
We will have that open. Open fairly soon.
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Christine Raffini
Do you think the President has essentially moved on from this? He seems to think it's going to resolve itself.
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Catherine Lucey
No, he hasn't moved on. And one tiny thing, he, he was in Virginia yesterday at this event. He actually went back to the White House last night, and he's expected to come down to Florida.
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Christine Raffini
Oh, thank you.
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Public Advertiser
Okay.
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Christine Raffini
Yeah, just.
- [11:56]
Catherine Lucey
That's just a tiny programming note. Yeah, he's supposed to. But he is. Yes, he is supposed to attend a UFC fight in Miami tonight. That is the expectation. And, and then be here for part of the weekend. I, I think that he has made very clear he would like to move forward. I mean, he also said in those comments to reporters, you know, they've effectively, you know, defeated Iran. You know, they're, they're, you know, it's basically done. And you've seen him laying that kind of rhetorical groundwork for some time. Right. We've heard him talk about how this is basically, this mission is basically accomplished. They've done what they've gave way of. They, they've wanted to do, whether or not that. And I think what's happening, obviously, and this is referred to earlier, I mean, he is under an immense amount of pressure about domestic gas prices, about public opinion polling, and about the midterm elections, which were already expected to be challenging for Republicans and now are looking increasingly dire. I mean, the public is not sold on this war, and the rise in gas prices is only sort of juicing frustration that was already there over the cost of living and prices.
- [13:05]
Tim Stanwick
I want to bring in Philip Crowther. He is joining us. He's AP International correspondent. He's joining us from Islamabad right now. Philip, we're going to get back to the affordability portion of this for, for American, for Americans, and especially as Republicans and Democrats go into the midterms in just a few months. But since you are in Islamabad, just bring us up to date on what has happened with negotiators. What's the latest that you're hearing on the ground between, between the U.S. iran and Pakistan?
- [13:35]
Philip Crowther
Yeah, this is where we have to start talking about what direct talks and what indirect talks are between the United States and Iran. That is why we're here in Islamabad. That is why there is a mediator between Iran and the United States and a host, of course, for these talks about the ceasefire, maybe peace talks eventually. So what Pakistan is doing right now is it is meeting through its prime Minister Sharif with the two delegations. A meeting with the Iranian delegation has already happened. Iran represented here by its parliament speaker and by its foreign minister. Of course, as you know, on the US side, it's JayD Vance, the vice president, Steve Witkoff, the chief negotiator, and Jared Kushner as well. They have also now met with the Pakistani prime minister. Now, that's how these talks tend to work because the United States and Iran obviously don't see eye to eye together and don't tend to be seen in the same room together either. That's what often happens with warring factions. You need a mediator in the middle, and that is Pakistan here, of course, the hope here is that eventually, after those meetings are done, that there might be a rapprochement, if you will, between Iran and the United States, an actual physical rapprochement here in Islamabad, and that they will actually be able to sit, not necessarily side by side, but opposite each other in a negotiating room here in the Pakistani capital. Now, it's important to note, though, that there are obviously huge differences between these two sides when it comes to extending this very tenuous ceasefire and maybe reaching some kind of a peace agreement. And that starts with Iran setting some preconditions to even meet in the first place with the American delegation. The Iranians say that they want some of their frozen assets released in Qatar, for example, and that they want a ceasefire that is very tenuous right now to also include Israeli attacks on Hezbollah targets in Lebanon. That clearly hasn't happened over the last 24 hours. So there is still a small Question mark over whether we're going to see these actual face to face meetings between the US And Iranian delegations. Even if they don't, there can still be a successful outcome here. But it is a sign of how these two sides, even though they're used to negotiating with each other, they obviously don't see eye to eye with each other.
- [15:52]
Christine Raffini
Philip, you're speaking music to my diplomatic reporter's heart. Because I have also been trying to explain to folks that just because they're in the same city doesn't mean they're in the same room. Even if you see a photo of them, that doesn't mean that's where the negotiations are taking place. Normally with Iran, previously, when the control Atari's the Omanis have been moderating, they've been doing exactly what Philip was saying, essentially passing notes back and forth, delivering terms. But Philip, you know, this, that takes a long time. And when I have interviewed, you know, high profile diplomats who facilitated these talks, even they express frustration about how long indirect talks take. It's getting late there. They're not even like really going with this. What are they going to get done in the day that they've laid out? Do you think these are going to drag on or do you think they're going to say, this is great, let's try again next year, week?
- [16:39]
Philip Crowther
Look, it all depends on what you might consider a measure of success in these talks from the Pakistani side. They, as mediators, are already very proud, I can tell you, that they are hosting these talks in the first place and that they are seen as the country responsible for bringing this ceasefire to a reality in the first place. So for the organizers here, maybe a sign of success. Success would be for these two delegations, yes, to meet maybe indirectly, maybe directly at a very high level, and for them to get along just about enough for there to be further technical talks, as they're called. This means that lower ranked delegations might still remain here in Islamabad, or some might be flown in from Tehran and from Washington, for example, and that they will then be able to hash out some of the crucial differences. How does one come to an understanding when the United States wants the nuclear program in Iran curbed or almost halted entirely, and when Iran says it has a right to a nuclear program, how do they get to an actual agreement? How the Strait of Hormuz might be reopened, when the United States says it has to be open to all, or even the United States might want to make some money with it, and Iran says that it wants control over the Strait and actually make some money with it, as it has been doing over the last few weeks. In the first place, huge differences between these two countries, obviously, but that doesn't mean that there can't be some kind of a successful outcome. And that's diplomatic speak as well. You might not come to a huge signed agreement here later tonight here in Islamabad, but you might see the two delegations saying, you know what, we have enough of an understanding to keep on meeting and to keep on working on this whole thing.
- [18:20]
Tim Stanwick
Philip Crowe, their Associated Press international correspondent, joining us from Islamabad. I want to go back to Catherine Lucey, who is our White House correspondent, joining us right now. And just, Catherine, bring you into the conversation about the question of success. And we heard from Philip just now, okay, what success could look like to Pakistan from a diplomatic angle. But how does JD Vance return from this trip and say that was successful? What does that look like?
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Catherine Lucey
I mean, I think there's a lot of what ifs baked into that question. Right. But I think one, one thing we've seen from President Trump that could extend here is that, that he is very good at sort of picking the things that he wants to emphasize and trying to declare wins when he can. If there is progress, I think that is what they will point to. Right, Right. So if they can say, we've moved forward on this talk, continue. You know, this was a good first day. I mean, and of course, obviously, if there's more, they will, they, if they, if they reach a full deal, I think, you know, that's obviously a big win for them. But I think as long as they can cite that this is moving forward, I think they will try, and they could try and sort of argue that that was a, was a good day.
- [19:33]
Christine Raffini
Ethan, quickly, before we have to let you go, does Benjamin Netanyahu want these negotiations to be successful?
- [19:43]
Ethan Brauner
I guess it depends on how you define success. If success means that the American demands in that in the program, they put forward an ending of all enrichment, the ending of the nuclear program, the ending of the ballistic program, the cutoff from the proxies, then I think he'd be delighted. He said so from the beginning, you know, if a diplomatic solution could do it, great. But the likelihood, of course, given where we are, is that those things will not emerge from this. And in that sense, I'd say you're right to ask the question that he remains skeptical. And of course, for him, for Israelis, it's a much more immediate danger, from their perspective, to have Iran back on the horse and agreeing to make money in the strait and so on. So certainly a fair amount of concern here that this may happen in a way that will not be good for this country.
- [20:37]
Christine Raffini
All right, Ethan Brauner, our Israel bureau chief, and Kathryn Lucey, our White House correspondent, thank you both so much. Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend, right after this.
- [20:51]
Tech Industry Commentator
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- [23:48]
Christine Raffini
Welcome back to Bloomberg this weekend. I'm Christine Raffini.
- [23:51]
Tim Stanwick
And I'm Tim Stanwick. What is going on with airlines?
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Christine Raffini
I don't know. It's so expensive and I hate flying and I always want to upgrade and then I'm too cheap to do. I do for as much as I've traveled, I've been to 50 plus countries, I hate flying, I but I don't like it.
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Tim Stanwick
We're going to have to work on that. I know there's going to be, I feel like there's a lot of travel in your near future.
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Christine Raffini
I'll go, I just want to upgrade myself. But it's getting too expensive to do that.
- [24:14]
Tim Stanwick
Well, that's why we're bringing in Katie nastro. She's the going.com travel expert. And we're talking about not just rising energy prices prices, but what these airlines are doing as a result of these rising energy prices. We've heard from a few airlines recently, JetBlue, Delta among them. They're not just raising ticket prices to deal with this but, but raising bag fees to do this. Why are they, why are they raising prices in both areas when, when airline tickets are so dynamic to begin with?
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Katie Nastro
Yeah, look, you know, two things can be true at once. You know, the price of airfare can rise. Cheap flights can also exist. List but that doesn't necessarily mean that that is working for airlines. You know, airlines are really feeling the pressure from this additional cost and they're looking at ways to protect their margins. So they're really looking to be creative here. And one of such ways is looking at ancillarity like bag fees. And it's sort of a win win for the airlines in this stage because yes, they're getting extra revenue from these increased bag fees but then they're also not subject to a 7.5 excise tax that they put on base fares that they are subject to. So that's more money in the pocket as well as they have now this framing, this justification of higher jet fuel prices. And they can always push back and say, you know what you don't have to check a bag even though the prices have risen. But do travelers, can they just decide not to check a bag? We ask that question for families that unfortunately are feeling the pressure of having or needing to check a bag. So it's really a win win for the airlines and a lose lose for travelers. Especially when yes, base fares have increased. Domestic prices for summer, just for example, according to our going data, up 18%, international fares up 7.5%. So unfortunately this summer specifically is really going to be challenging for that cost conscious traveler.
- [26:09]
Christine Raffini
I'm starting to get very mad at David Gura who is taking his vacation now and smartly already planned this whereas I was waiting till the end of summer.
- [26:15]
Katie Nastro
Shoulder season is a good deal.
- [26:18]
Christine Raffini
But my concern is that when we see industries raise these prices, they don't tend to go back down because consumers get used to it. That threshold sticks. We very rarely if oil prices go down or see those other prices go back down. Do you think these increased bag fees will stay at this level?
- [26:34]
Katie Nastro
I really hope I'm wrong, but I am not a betting woman. But I would bet that these fees are here to stay. They're pretty sticky. Historically we have seen bag fees risen every few years and it's likely that this was in airlines playbook all along. But we have this perfect time frame now to raise fees and have a justification to do so as well as you know, JetBlue. JetBlue really started the trend and then United joined and if you noticed it's a herd mentality. It, you know, if one airline always,
- [27:06]
Christine Raffini
if one does it, it's a green
- [27:08]
Katie Nastro
light for everybody else. And unfortunately again, travelers are looking at this to be the new norm.
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Tim Stanwick
Is it a way to creatively get us to buy sort of that more expensive tier of ticket too? Because if you think about it from you know, the perspective of these airlines, they have these different tiers of service. So even the big three are have these basic economy fares to try to compete with the ultra low cost carriers. So if you're in basic economy, maybe you don't get, you know, to choose a seat or to check a bag. You have to pay to check a bag. But then if you buy that one tier higher, you can get some of those things and maybe those margins are better.
- [27:42]
Katie Nastro
Yeah, it's unfortunately feeling like you are being punished for just trying to get a base fare. We call basic economy just the base fare. It is basically just a seat at the point. And so we want travelers not to feel like there are no options because actually there are options. When you do buy up, you are giving yourself the flexibility of taking advantage of price drops when and if they occur. And that is one huge tip that we would impart on anybody that is looking to fly in the near future that's worried about higher costs, especially for summer. When you book that main economy fair, you have the flexibility to take advantage of a notification when it comes in, whether it's on Google flights, whatever tracking you have, maybe it's on the going app, call the airlines, they reprice you and then you get a credit for the difference to use in the future within the year. So you're never actually losing out when you book that higher fare class. However, yes, it is a more expensive, expensive ticket on the upfront.
- [28:37]
Christine Raffini
All right, before we let you go, it's not just flights. This is impacting cruises as well. Cruises like the family bargain basement travel. I have so many friends who describe themselves as vehemently not cruise people. But then they need to do a vacation with tiny children and older parents and families who can't decide and they've all gone on a cruise and said you know what, it was perfect but it was affordable.
- [28:55]
Katie Nastro
It makes sense that people are looking at alternatives. We are looking at all inclusives, domestic, all inclusives. Vegas just announced some of that is being implemented. Cruise is always a family favorite because you know what your bottom line cost is going to be. However written into cost cruise contract facts is little stipulations surrounding that there may be fees after the fact, even after you paid. Now it varies across cruise lines but that's something that travelers really need to be aware of and unfortunately again it's, it's looking to be a challenge for those cost conscious travelers this year, specifically families.
- [29:28]
Tim Stanwick
Okay, just settle this in the last 20 seconds that we have with you
- [29:30]
Christine Raffini
once and for challenge. No challenge.
- [29:32]
Tim Stanwick
Is there a best time to buy an airline ticket? A best day of the week to do it? Or have they just gotten so smart
- [29:38]
Christine Raffini
that or a certain number of weeks out?
- [29:40]
Tim Stanwick
No, she's just shaking her complete myth
- [29:42]
Katie Nastro
that 2pm on a Tuesday is going to be the best time for 3am on a Saturday. Whatever it is, your win, your booking window, your Goldilocks window of how early ahead of your flight that you book is the best strategy that you can impart. Don't wait till last minute, but don't wait. Don't book super, super early. Somewhere in that juicy middle.
- [30:01]
Christine Raffini
Are you going on a trip this summer?
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Katie Nastro
Always.
- [30:03]
Lisa Mateo
Where are you going?
- [30:03]
Christine Raffini
Did you find a good deal?
- [30:04]
Katie Nastro
I already booked my flight to Seoul, South Korea 4:59 round trip. That was a mistake fair that we found over at Gong. Yeah but I booked earlier.
- [30:12]
Tim Stanwick
Get the seat. Nothing else. You have to bring your own food for the whole flight.
- [30:15]
Christine Raffini
All right you two. Katie Nasto, thank you so much for joining us. Have an excellent trip. Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend right after this.
- [30:28]
Tech Industry Commentator
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- [31:12]
Public Advertiser
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- [31:27]
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- [32:00]
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- [32:46]
Christine Raffini
It's the weekend and that of course means time to tackle really simple questions like what is the meaning of life? And how do I find existential happiness?
- [32:54]
Lisa Mateo
Those are loaded questions. Here we go. Our next guest is Arthur Brooks. He's a Harvard professor. He's also a happiness expert, and he is the author of a new book. Yes, it is the Meaning of youf Life. Finding Purpose in an Age of Emptiness. That is a tough one in itself right there. Arthur, thanks for.
- [33:13]
Christine Raffini
And Arthur joins us in studio.
- [33:14]
Technology Analyst
That's great.
- [33:15]
Christine Raffini
See you.
- [33:15]
Lisa Mateo
Yeah, I got to start with this because you talk to a lot of people, right? So in this book, you kind of uncovered this. This similar theme, people who felt like they were stuck in this simulation. So there was a quote in there. I want to read it to you. Life felt unreal, full of false rewards, empty accomplishments, therapeutic talk, fake experiences, all curated to pass the time as painlessly as possible. I mean, does. Does life feel like this for so many people?
- [33:41]
Technology Analyst
People really? A lot, especially for young adults. I teach graduate students at the Harvard Business School, you know, and a lot of people who watch us here in Bloomberg, they went to the Harvard Business School, and they have an experience. They remember their time as one of real life and real relationships. And. And a lot of our students today are not having that experience. And the reason is because their lives are mediated by technology. When you put technology between you and the rest of the world, what happens is you get a simulated life. What I show in this book, what I show in this research is that simulation. You wake up and you look at your phone and you scroll while you eat breakfast. You go to work on Zoom, you date online, you game after work, whatever it happens to be. The truth is that you lose the sense of real life. And what that does is it changes the functioning of your brain and you lose the most important thing in life, which is the understanding of the meaning of your life. I talk about the science behind that. Most importantly, I talk about how you can fix it.
- [34:32]
Christine Raffini
Is it that they're holding themselves up to false ideals that they're seeing online? Is it that they're dulling their ability to interact in real life because they're so used to seeing it through a screen? Is it all of the above?
- [34:44]
Technology Analyst
It's all of the above. But fundamentally, what's going on is that when you're having a real life experience, really complex emotions which you have when you're with other people, you're using the right hemisphere of your brain, which is the why side of your brain, the meaning side of your brain. When you're on technology, you're using the left side of your brain, which is the what and how to side the engineering side of your brain. And you can't fool your brain. You can simulate a lot. You can simulate all kinds of experiences, but you can't simulate the meaning of life. And that leads inexorably when you don't know the meaning of your life, when it feels false, you will become anxious, you will become depressed, you'll become lonely, and you probably won't know why. That's why you mentioned earlier.
- [35:23]
Lisa Mateo
How do you fix it then?
- [35:24]
Technology Analyst
Yeah, the point is that you have to live in a way that used to be ordinary and that actually isn't now. This is a real addiction that we have. The average American looks at her or his phone 205 times a day.
- [35:36]
Christine Raffini
I have two phones.
- [35:37]
Technology Analyst
I noticed you have two phones there, but you haven't looked at them the whole time we've been doing this interview. So I want to congratulate you on that.
- [35:42]
Christine Raffini
It's only been like two and a half minutes and now I have, so I ruined it. I'm sorry.
- [35:46]
Tech Industry Commentator
Continue.
- [35:46]
Technology Analyst
But what happens is that you send your brain activity over to the left hemisphere and you stop doing the real work of mind wandering and thinking about questions of meaning, questions of mystery, the things that actually matter to us. You can't love somebody on the left side of your brain. You can only love somebody on the right side of your brain. Every time you look at your phone, you jar yourself out of the part that actually brings you happiness, which is obviously a big problem. Now why did we do it? Is because, you know, we don't like being bored. We want to distract ourselves.
- [36:13]
Christine Raffini
So I was just reading that people are like, so boredom averse these days that we're not getting that quiet time in our brain to think about people we love, things we want to do, even the meaning of life.
- [36:23]
Technology Analyst
Yeah. So when you. When you're bored, and by the way, when I mean bored, it's just you're not doing something. Your brain naturally goes into the default mode network. That's what we talk about in the behavioral science world. It's a fancy way of saying that your mind wanders. We call it that because we need tenure and we have to make it fancy. But the truth is that mind wandering is really important for understanding the meaning of life. That's why you get your best ideas in the shower, because the phone isn't in there, for Pete's sake. But if you're looking at your phone all day long, you'll never be bored. But your life will be weirdly boring. You know, if you think back to your great grandfather, you know, he never came home and said to his wife, your great grandma, honey, I had a panic Attack behind a mule today. And the reason is because his brain was working the way it was supposed to. He was bored a lot behind that mule, but his life wasn't boring. But if I talk to a lot of young people today, and by the way, a lot of people my age too, their life is never boring from moment to moment because they've eradicated the boredom problem. But their life is actually really boring. They don't know what they're scrolling, they don't know what they're doing on the Internet. They're just staying distracted. Life is like an airport lounge. And the meaning of your life is the flight that never takes off and you're just kind of distracted. Distracting yourself. That's the problem to solve. And you first solve it by trying to eradicate the addiction. You got to break the grip because this is neurochemically functioning like a. Like a substance or behavioral addiction. And then you have to go live
- [37:48]
Christine Raffini
like your great grandpa kick that it gives you.
- [37:50]
Technology Analyst
It's a dopamine.
- [37:50]
Lisa Mateo
Dopamine.
- [37:51]
Christine Raffini
Sorry, I knew that's why you have a degree and I do not.
- [37:54]
Technology Analyst
Well, you know, but the neuromodulator is very, very powerful. That mediates all addictions, to be sure. And it's very easy to break. Believe it or not, the grip of addictions over you are very easy to break with certain protocols. Not using your phone intensively for the first hour of the day. I mean, you have to, the two of you have to, because you're in media. You wake up and you look at the phone and say, what happened to markets? Right. But don't scroll, don't use it to distract yourself. Never use it during meals, which you're telling your kids anyway. And never use it for the last hour before you go to bed. More than anything else, never look at it during the night. And if you do those three things, your relationship will change. And then you're able to start living differently. Like good old great grandpa, which was ordinary for him, but not so much for us.
- [38:36]
Lisa Mateo
Well, it's a rule at our table, like at dinner time.
- [38:38]
Tim Stanwick
Yeah.
- [38:39]
Lisa Mateo
No phones. No phones.
- [38:40]
Technology Analyst
Yeah. You know the number one predictor of kids using their phones at dinner?
- [38:43]
Christine Raffini
If the parents.
- [38:44]
Technology Analyst
Mom and dad using the phone at dinner.
- [38:45]
Ethan Brauner
Of course.
- [38:46]
Lisa Mateo
Wrong example. Can't do that. How do you think? I'm curious. How do you think AI is going to change the game? I mean. Or is that the next book?
- [38:52]
Technology Analyst
Well, no, I mean, it's like people ask me all the time because I'm a happiness specialist. How will I Affect happiness and the answer depends on how you use it. So the brain is hemispheric. The right side is the why, mystery, meaning, love and happiness side. The left side is the how to the what, the engineering analysis and tech side. So AI is the ideal part of the left hemisphere of your brain. It extends the left hemisphere to answer analytic questions for you, but it's horrible for asking questions that matter. The problem is when people try to use it for their right hemisphere. These are the complex problems of love and meaning. And when you ask AI questions about friendship, about love, if you use it as a therapist, you're using it wrong. The way to use AI to get happier is to get rid of all the nonsense tasks, all the quotidian things that bother you and using the time that you have left over in real life and loving other people, people, that's how you use your brain correctly.
- [39:45]
Christine Raffini
Are you concerned that that side of the brain that AI helps will become less astute, will start to paralyze itself? Because people are not forcing themselves to not only not solve complex problems, but really basic things that I feel like you could do. My friends are going, oh, I put into chat GPT.
- [40:03]
Technology Analyst
Well, we're all already seeing brain changes because of the technology in general.
- [40:06]
Christine Raffini
So can you see them, like physically speaking?
- [40:08]
Technology Analyst
Yeah, for sure. So for example, your brain is highly, synaptically plastic. In other words, your brain grows in areas that you use for particular tasks, even in, even after childhood. For example, you'll find that in the ancient times, London is a very hard city to navigate. Taxi drivers in London, before the onset of GPS actually had more developed, physically developed parts of their brains for navigation. And now they don't because they're using gps. So you will see, see synaptic changes in the brain. However, we'll learn new skills. I'm not worried about it. It's what it comes down to. My dad was a professional mathematician. He was a, he was a math professor and he said in my day we would evaluate a logarithm manually and you kids just plug it into a calculator. It's like, yeah, dad, but we're doing other stuff. That's what it comes down to. The problem is when you atrophy on the right and that's what's happening today. When you don't use the right side of your brain, when you don't ask the question of complexity and meaning and mystery, then you will become depressed and anxious and lonely. And that's where we are today, is it?
- [41:06]
Christine Raffini
Also, that is not going to Challenge you. You know, there's this fallacy sometimes that, like, the easier thing is going to make you happier, but that's not always the case.
- [41:14]
Technology Analyst
Well, that's absolutely true. But that actually speaks to another big problem of meaning. Challenge and hardship is central to the meaning of life. When you suffer, that's when you're right. Brain is really active. And that's one of the reasons that we have a big problem today where we teach a lot of young people. If you're sad and anxious, that means there's something wrong with you and we have to lower that pain. Well, that's wrong. I mean, that can be a part of life that isn't. I mean, I tell my students, you know, it's like you're. You're studying at Harvard. If you're not sad and anxious, you need therapy. And it's important part of life.
- [41:47]
Christine Raffini
And so I have next recruitment video coming your way from Arthur Brooks.
- [41:51]
Technology Analyst
I have a whole chapter in the book about never wasting your suffering. Because when you understand the nature of suffering, how you can grow from suffering, life gets richer and you find the meaning of your life.
- [42:00]
Lisa Mateo
Well, I mean, are the kids going to be okay? I mean, I have a son who is the age of some of your students, and then I have a daughter who is, you know, 18, going on 19, getting ready to go to that. Are they going to be okay? When it comes to you talk about loneliness. I mean, relationships, things like that.
- [42:15]
Technology Analyst
We are losing a generation right now. We absolutely are. The reason I wrote this book is because it's necessary. I wrote this book because I want people to have a way out there. This book promises that in six ways, you can find the meaning of your life in six months and change your life. Because I've seen it. I've developed this protocol over the past five years with my graduate students at Harvard. And I wanted to get it out into a mass audience because that's actually what we need. Look, we will figure out these problems, but I don't want to lose a generation of people in the meantime, which is why I'm talking about these ways of living in alive, fully alive.
- [42:47]
Christine Raffini
If you could give. I know we have a lot of advice and there is a very good book with lots of it in it.
- [42:52]
Technology Analyst
I've read it.
- [42:54]
Christine Raffini
If you give one piece of advice to our audience, regardless of age, about how to be happy.
- [42:59]
Technology Analyst
Yeah. The number one thing is actually breaking the grip of what's sending you, what's breaking your brain, and that's putting on your phone not all the time. You don't have to throw it in the ocean and join a monastery, unless that's your thing. But the truth is actually in strategic times, during the day, when your neurochemical cognitively programming first thing in the morning, when you're eating your meals and when you're loving your your spouse or partner dog an hour before you go to bed, just do those things. Just put down the phone.
- [43:24]
Christine Raffini
My dog hates my phone. He actually hits it with his phone.
- [43:26]
Technology Analyst
Oh yeah, no, no, they know because they have a very developed.
- [43:28]
Christine Raffini
No, he hits it with his paws.
- [43:29]
Technology Analyst
They have a very developed limbic system. They've developed emotionally in parallel with us. Your dog knows you.
- [43:35]
Christine Raffini
I love that. All right. Arthur Brooks, thank you so much. The book is the Meaning of youf Life in stores now. It is in stores now. Thank you for coming in.
- [43:42]
Technology Analyst
Thanks for having me.
- [43:44]
Lisa Mateo
Stay with us for more on Bloomberg this weekend, right after this.
- [43:51]
Tech Industry Commentator
Support for the show comes from Public. Public is an investing platform that offers access to stocks, options, bonds and crypto. And they've also integrated AI with tools that can assist investors in building customized portfolios. One of these tools is called Generated Assets. It allows you to turn your ideas into investable indexes. So let's say you're interested in something specific like biotech companies with high R and D spend, small cap stocks with improving operating margins or the S&P 500 minus high debt companies. Chances are there isn't an ETF that fits your exact criteria. But on Public you just type in a prompt and their AI screens thousands of stocks and builds a one of a kind index. You can even backtest it against the S&P 500. Then you can invest in a few clicks, go to public.com market and earn an uncapped 1% bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com market and paid for by
- [44:45]
Public Advertiser
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- [45:39]
Cincinnati Insurance Advertiser
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- [46:23]
Christine Raffini
Welcome back to Bloomberg this weekend. Tim, put your phone away now.
- [46:26]
Tim Stanwick
I'm looking at.
- [46:27]
Christine Raffini
No cheating.
- [46:28]
Tim Stanwick
No understand what we're actually doing.
- [46:30]
Christine Raffini
All right, it is time for the pointed news quiz.
- [46:33]
Tim Stanwick
Touch my phone.
- [46:35]
Christine Raffini
It's very defensive. We just did a segment.
- [46:37]
Tim Stanwick
Arthur Brooks is going to come back,
- [46:38]
Christine Raffini
is going to operate and just steal your phone. Before that happens, we're going to go to Lisa, who's going to explain to you what exactly is going on.
- [46:46]
Lisa Mateo
This is the quiz for risk takers. Okay, Tim, so I hope you fit right in. Let me explain it to you. Here's how it works. So you have 30 chips in front of you, right? They're split into three categories, so 10 each, all right? You have these little whiteboards in front of you. There's three categories, okay? So when each category comes up, you figure out, you know what, I feel confident about this one. I'm gonna put 10 or I'm gonna put 20 on this one category. And you figure out by the categories, okay? You write each. I'm gonna ask a question. You ask.
- [47:11]
Christine Raffini
You write each Jeopardy.
- [47:12]
Lisa Mateo
Style on the board and then you flip it and we see who gets it right. And we do that for each category. All right?
- [47:17]
Catherine Lucey
Are you ready?
- [47:18]
Christine Raffini
Are you ready?
- [47:18]
Lisa Mateo
Okay. Okay, let's get to our category so I'll reveal to you guys so you can figure out what you want to bet. The first category is AI.
- [47:25]
Christine Raffini
You'll be good on that.
- [47:26]
Lisa Mateo
The second category is fires. And the third category is retail. All right, so think about it. Where do you want to place your bets? Where are you going? You got to put all 10. You can't.
- [47:38]
Christine Raffini
We don't like to do math here on Saturday. So pick a 10 and slide it over. I'm going to do 10. 10 and 10.
- [47:43]
Tim Stanwick
Yeah. Make it easy. Doing the same.
- [47:45]
Lisa Mateo
10.
- [47:45]
Christine Raffini
10 and 10.
- [47:46]
Tim Stanwick
No math.
- [47:46]
Lisa Mateo
Let's see how this goes. All right, all right, all right. So let's get to the first question. AI. Okay, on April 8, a team of AI researchers debuted their model called Blank Spark. Which name fills that blank? Hey. April 8, AI researchers, their model was called Blank Spark. What will fill that blank? You like? To the music we have, too. I love it.
- [48:12]
Christine Raffini
I feel like Tim's gonna get going.
- [48:14]
Lisa Mateo
I think he looks. He's. Oh, he's erasing. Ah, there you go. Oh, yeah.
- [48:19]
Tim Stanwick
I'm supposed to talk.
- [48:19]
Lisa Mateo
Okay, here we go. Okay, flip it. What do you got, Tim?
- [48:23]
Tim Stanwick
Meta.
- [48:23]
Lisa Mateo
Meta. No. And you have Quantum. Quantum. No. The answer is muse.
- [48:27]
Technology Analyst
Muse.
- [48:28]
Tim Stanwick
Okay. Code named Avocado.
- [48:32]
Lisa Mateo
Yes, you're correct. You're correct.
- [48:33]
Tim Stanwick
Do I get any part.
- [48:34]
Lisa Mateo
But you get no points for that. Okay, so here's what happens.
- [48:36]
Christine Raffini
Okay, Wait. I saw you write avocado when I was. I was so confused.
- [48:39]
Tim Stanwick
I wrote Avocado because that was internally what it was called.
- [48:42]
Christine Raffini
You should have committed.
- [48:43]
Lisa Mateo
I would have argued. So does Lisa get all our shifts okay?
- [48:49]
Christine Raffini
Cash. And these? End of iron.
- [48:50]
Tim Stanwick
Personally, I think I should get partial credit, but that's okay.
- [48:52]
Ethan Brauner
Nope, nope.
- [48:52]
Lisa Mateo
You erased it, and that's what happens.
- [48:54]
Christine Raffini
Don't second guess. If you left it on, I would
- [48:55]
Katie Nastro
have agreed with you.
- [48:56]
Christine Raffini
But negative goes. Right.
- [48:57]
Lisa Mateo
But it actually comes from. Yes. Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg's new Meta Superintelligence Labs. That was the first kind of amad.
- [49:03]
Christine Raffini
A lot of it.
- [49:03]
Lisa Mateo
All right, let's go to fire. Okay. I don't know where this is gonna go. I know. Very strange topic, but here we go. A suspect was arrested after a fire at a toilet paper warehouse. Which company leased that facility? Toilet paper. There's your clue there. Toilet paper warehouse. Okay.
- [49:22]
Christine Raffini
Okay.
- [49:23]
Lisa Mateo
Which company leased that facility? All right, all right, flip it, guys. What do you got? Kimberly Clark. Yes, Tim. And you have Charmin. Oh, Kimberly Clark is the one. Tim, Tim, Tim.
- [49:34]
Tim Stanwick
What's going to happen here?
- [49:35]
Katie Nastro
Uh.
- [49:36]
Christine Raffini
Oh, they make.
- [49:37]
Lisa Mateo
They make Kleenex, Scott and Cottonelle. Okay, there you go.
- [49:42]
Tim Stanwick
What do I do with my chest?
- [49:43]
Lisa Mateo
So, no, you hold on.
- [49:43]
Tim Stanwick
To keep them.
- [49:44]
Christine Raffini
Okay.
- [49:44]
Lisa Mateo
You keep them.
- [49:45]
Christine Raffini
Hoard them.
- [49:45]
Lisa Mateo
All right, so you keep them.
- [49:46]
Christine Raffini
You know, hold them over me.
- [49:47]
Lisa Mateo
But it's this last category that could. That could. That could do it. Okay, we'll go to retail. All right.
- [49:53]
Christine Raffini
Come on.
- [49:54]
Lisa Mateo
Shopping Hobo Nichis Techo. It costs 2,600 yen or US$16, and it has seen record sales, thanks, of course, to social media. Which type of product is it? What is a Hobonichi Teco? You heard it. It was in the headlines this week. It's about US$16.
- [50:16]
Christine Raffini
I feel like I did notice. I can't remember what?
- [50:18]
Catherine Lucey
This was.
- [50:18]
Lisa Mateo
You remember passing the story and you're like, oh, what was that again? It's racking your brain. What is it?
- [50:26]
Christine Raffini
It's an item of clothes.
- [50:27]
Lisa Mateo
I can't. I can't give any guesses. No, no, I'm not giving it away.
- [50:32]
Christine Raffini
I'm sorry.
- [50:33]
Lisa Mateo
I'm peeking at his board.
- [50:35]
Tim Stanwick
I know it's not right, but it's a good guess.
- [50:37]
Lisa Mateo
Okay, that's what.
- [50:38]
Christine Raffini
I don't know. I don't know. All right, all right.
- [50:40]
Lisa Mateo
Let's see what you got. It says matcha and you say socks. Okay. No. It is a planner. It's Japan's fastest moving stationery brand. This is actually one of them because in the control room has one and she has it and it's. Look at it. You go through.
- [50:57]
Tim Stanwick
This is what I mean.
- [50:58]
Lisa Mateo
I mean, she's so organized. Oh, my gosh.
- [51:02]
Christine Raffini
I have a paper planner and it is Japanese, but it's a different brand. But maybe I need to upgrade.
- [51:06]
Lisa Mateo
I have one, but it doesn't have all of this stuff in here. Elizabeth, I'm so impressed.
- [51:11]
Tim Stanwick
So if you're keeping track.
- [51:12]
Lisa Mateo
Yes.
- [51:13]
Tim Stanwick
You got zero right.
- [51:15]
Lisa Mateo
She has. I didn't know who because she has to pass those over to me.
- [51:19]
Christine Raffini
Yes, Kim, I've gotten zero right.
- [51:21]
Lisa Mateo
You got this one.
- [51:22]
Katie Nastro
Huge for Russell.
- [51:22]
Christine Raffini
Rubbing that in. You did not get that one right either.
- [51:24]
Lisa Mateo
But you know what we have? We got a bonus question.
- [51:26]
Public Advertiser
Oh, yes.
- [51:27]
Christine Raffini
I can tie it up.
- [51:29]
Lisa Mateo
Here's the bonus question. And the category is movies. Okay. All right, all right. You probably might get this. No, this is not going to work. Okay. No, you might. Okay. The Super Mario Blank movie is a box office success. Which word hailing from a 2007 Mario game fills in that title? It's called the Super Mario Blank movie.
- [51:51]
Christine Raffini
We got 90 seconds here.
- [51:52]
Technology Analyst
You have children.
- [51:53]
Tim Stanwick
I do appreciate 10.
- [51:54]
Christine Raffini
90 seconds.
- [51:54]
Lisa Mateo
Commit, commit.
- [51:56]
Katie Nastro
Here we go.
- [51:56]
Christine Raffini
Here we go.
- [51:57]
Tim Stanwick
Okay, great.
- [51:59]
Lisa Mateo
It's a sequel to, you know, the Super Mario Brothers. Okay, what do you got? Smash Bros. Bros. No, it's a Super Mario Galaxy movie.
- [52:08]
Tim Stanwick
Okay, so here's the deal. Yes, this was embarrassing because
- [52:15]
Christine Raffini
you won.
- [52:16]
Tim Stanwick
I'm embarrassed out of, like, an opportunity for eight right answers.
- [52:20]
Catherine Lucey
Yeah, we didn't degrade.
- [52:21]
Tim Stanwick
There was one right answer.
- [52:22]
Catherine Lucey
We didn't do great.
- [52:23]
Christine Raffini
We didn't degrade.
- [52:24]
Lisa Mateo
But people trying to play online do it.
- [52:26]
Christine Raffini
No, it's a once a week thing. So you're gonna have to come back and redeem yourself.
- [52:29]
Tim Stanwick
I'm allowed back tomorrow.
- [52:30]
Lisa Mateo
You can come back tomorrow, see how it goes and play at home. Bloomberg.com pointed
- [52:37]
Christine Raffini
thanks for joining us on today's Bloomberg this Weekend podcast. Don't forget to tune in live for the show every Saturday and Sunday morning starting at 7am Eastern.
- [52:45]
Technology Analyst
We're on Bloomberg Television Radio and the Bloomberg Business App, bringing you unique takes and in depth interviews on news, politics, lifestyle and culture.
- [53:00]
Cincinnati Insurance Advertiser
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