BNI 819: Business Matters 121 - Motivated or Desperate?

Summary

BNI & The Power of One Podcast Summary

Episode: BNI 819: Business Matters 121 - Motivated or Desperate?
Host: Tim Roberts
Co-Host: Michael Martin
Release Date: May 14, 2025

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In this insightful episode of the BNI podcast series Business Matters, host Tim Roberts is joined by co-host Michael Martin to delve into a critical topic for business owners and entrepreneurs: distinguishing between motivated and desperate individuals in the context of hiring salespeople. Drawing inspiration from Patrick Bet-David's advice, the hosts explore strategies to ensure that businesses uphold their brand integrity by making informed hiring decisions.

Introduction: Setting the Stage

The episode begins with Tim Roberts and Michael Martin sharing a brief personal update about the weather in southern New Hampshire, setting a relaxed and conversational tone before transitioning into the main discussion.

The Dilemma: Motivated vs. Desperate

[02:00] Tim Roberts introduces the central theme by referencing a poignant comment from Patrick Bet-David about the pitfalls of hiring desperate individuals. He explains that while desperation might signify hunger and drive, it often leads to high-risk behaviors detrimental to business integrity.

"Desperate people will do desperate things. And they, they will often or can high risk anyways of misrepresenting you, misrepresenting the product just to get the sale."
— Tim Roberts [02:50]

Michael Martin concurs, emphasizing the broader impact on the brand's reputation. He underscores the importance of thorough hiring processes to safeguard the business's image.

"Everyone in your company that has any kind of contact or any kind of interaction with your processes is basically representing your brand."
— Michael Martin [03:14]

Strategies for Effective Hiring

The hosts discuss practical approaches to differentiate between motivated and desperate candidates:

1. In-Depth Conversations:
   Michael highlights the necessity of conversational interviewing to uncover a candidate's true motivations and personal circumstances.

   "Having a conversational style really kind of brings out a lot of these things because, let's face it, everybody's got stuff they're dealing with and they're going to bring that to the workplace."
   — Michael Martin [04:22]

2. Financial Stability:
   Emphasizing Patrick Bet-David's advice, Michael shares an anecdote about a seasoned sales agent who insisted that candidates have six months' worth of living expenses before joining his team. This ensures that potential desperation due to financial strain doesn't drive unethical sales practices.

   "He goes, and if you don't have that or have access to that, I cannot hire you because you're gonna fail and you're gonna do things that are gonna be detrimental to me."
   — Michael Martin [07:24]

3. Evaluating Sales History:
   Michael advises assessing a candidate's current and past sales lines to gauge their stability and commitment. Consistency in representing reputable brands often indicates a motivated and reliable salesperson.

   "If they were doing like too many, like a ton of lines or short periods of time, other, like, if they had three lines they had for 10 years and one line they picked up a month ago, I'm not going to discount that..."
   — Michael Martin [09:56]

4. Candidate Inquisitiveness:
   Tim points out that candidates who ask thoughtful questions about the role and company are likely seeking a mutual fit rather than merely seeking any available position out of desperation.

   "...if they ask Any questions themselves? Like, if everything's like, yep, yep. Like, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's like, that kind of answer. That's more of a desperation stance."
   — Tim Roberts [11:40]

Real-World Experiences

Michael shares a compelling story illustrating the importance of not dismissing seemingly desperate candidates:

"She was desperate to get me her information so that I would at least have a conversation with her, right? And so if I had just discounted her, I might have been, I don't want to deal. But it ended up being one of the best hires I ever made..."
— Michael Martin [12:17]

Conversely, he also recounts a negative experience where a seemingly polished candidate masked their desperation, leading to eventual termination and brand damage.

"I've had people who were really smooth and had the right answers and stuff, and turns out they were pretty desperate, but really good at masking it... had to kind of cut loose a year later."
— Michael Martin [15:13]

Best Practices for Hiring

The conversation emphasizes the importance of patience and due diligence in the hiring process:

• Hire Slowly, Fire Quickly:
  Michael advocates for a deliberate hiring pace to ensure each candidate is thoroughly vetted, coupled with swift action if an employee isn't a good fit.

  "Start with, you know, you hire slow. That's the goal. You'll hire better. And then when you do make a mistake, you fire fast."
  — Michael Martin [17:54]

• Lead by Example:
  Tim and Michael agree that demonstrating patience and thoroughness in hiring sets a standard within the organization, promoting a culture of careful decision-making.

  "If you don't do things patiently, you can't expect anybody in your organization to do things patiently."
  — Michael Martin [17:16]

Impact on Business and Brand

The hosts discuss the far-reaching consequences of hiring desperate individuals, including reputational harm and potential financial or legal repercussions. Michael stresses that a single bad hire can tarnish a brand's image, making recovery efforts arduous and resource-intensive.

"But I think the worst thing ultimately for most people listening is probably just a reputational harm because they're always going to associate the brand with the mistake or the brand with the lie..."
— Michael Martin [16:41]

Personal Reflections and Advice

Tim shares personal insights, relating the discussion to mentoring his daughter about discernment and the importance of trusting one’s instincts when evaluating others’ true intentions.

"You can't try to shake it. If they show you who they are, believe them. Find your people and you'll be fine."
— Tim Roberts [19:53]

Conclusion: Learning from Experiences

Michael concludes by encouraging listeners to view hiring challenges as learning opportunities, refining their processes to avoid past mistakes and enhance future hiring success.

"No matter what bad situation you find yourself in, if you let the fog clear, you can actually learn something. So the next time, don't make that mistake again because now it's not a mistake, it's ignorance."
— Michael Martin [19:30]

Final Thoughts

The episode wraps up with Tim encouraging listeners to engage with the podcast by leaving comments, questions, and feedback, reinforcing the community-driven spirit of BNI.

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Key Takeaways:

• Differentiate Motivation from Desperation: Understand the nuanced differences to make informed hiring decisions.
• Thorough Hiring Processes: Implement detailed conversations and assessments to gauge candidate stability and fit.
• Protect Your Brand: Recognize that employees are brand ambassadors whose actions directly impact business reputation.
• Patience is Paramount: Take the necessary time to hire the right individuals, avoiding rushed decisions driven by immediate needs.
• Learn and Adapt: Use hiring experiences as opportunities to refine strategies and improve future outcomes.

This episode serves as a valuable resource for business leaders seeking to enhance their hiring practices, emphasizing the profound impact of employee selection on overall business success and brand integrity.

Transcript

[Tim Roberts]

Welcome back to Business Matters, part of the BNI Power of One. Tim Roberts, with me, Michael Martin.

[Michael Martin]

Good morning. Good morning.

[Tim Roberts]

How's it going?

[Michael Martin]

It's wet.

[Tim Roberts]

Yeah. Spring. Still spring.

[Michael Martin]

So for those listening in the. In the southern part of New Hampshire, where we're coming to you from, we've had six inches of rain in the last six days. And we.

[Tim Roberts]

I haven't even turned my sprinklers on yet. Like, I haven't even turned the water onto them yet. Yeah, everything's freaking green, green, green. So, yeah, it's gonna be a little bit.

[Michael Martin]

It's damp.

[Tim Roberts]

Yeah.

[Michael Martin]

So I'm glad we're doing this because it's a little bit of brightness to another one. Very weak, wet, rainy.

[Tim Roberts]

I thought this weekend was going to be amazing, but it hasn't started that way yet.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah, not so much.

[Tim Roberts]

All right, well, we are glad to be back. Family vacations are over, which is great. It was awesome. But now time to get back to everything. And we were talking off air just real quick about kind of the topic in this line that I heard recently on a podcast. I listened to Patrick Bet David a lot, usually on like YouTube and stuff. And I listen to different things. And he made a comment that kind of struck with me and I was like, made a lot of sense. And I think with. We were talking off air about things we're seeing in different industries and just kind of how the market's going and, you know, some predictable parts of like, you know, uncertainty in the market. There's going to be a lot of changeover in industries, whether it's people leaving one sales job going to another, or certain industries may slow down or what have you. And he made a line, a comment about when he. He got a. Had a mentor teaching him about hiring. He was. For anybody who doesn't know Patrick back David, he was a big insurance guy, built a big, huge insurance company, sold it for hundreds of millions of dollars. And he was talking about when he first started hiring in a mentor who advised him about being very careful about hiring desperate people. And he said, you know, sometimes it can be seem attractive, like, oh, this person's really super hungry. Like, I'm gonna hire him because they're gonna go and kill. And he goes, the advice was, you got to be very careful and don't hire somebody who's desperate. He's like, when you're hiring salespeople, you need to make sure they have money in the bank. You need to make sure their marriages, if they're married, it's in a Good place, you know, that they're not coming from some kind of area. It doesn't even have to be desperate from business standpoint. It could be other things going on in their lives. Sure. Because he goes, desperate people will do desperate things. And they, they will often or can high risk anyways of misrepresenting you, misrepresenting the product just to get the sale. And that can have serious, serious effects on your business and everything else. And I was like, you know, sure, kind of makes a lot of sense when you think about it. But I could see the other side of when you get somebody who's like, I'm super desperate, I need. And you think like, oh, they're, they're motivated to do this, when in reality there's difference between the two and therein lies the rub.

[Michael Martin]

You know, can you, can you tell the difference between a highly motivated individual that wants success or a desperate person who will do anything and for like what you think is success and, and you're right, there are challenges because they're the face of your brand or the outward appearance of your brand, and they can do as much damage as they can do good. Right.

[Tim Roberts]

It's not more maybe. Right.

[Michael Martin]

Depending on probably more. Right. Reputational harm is a big thing. This kind of goes back to like this, this maxim that I learned a long time ago, which is higher, slow fire, fast. But emphasis on this particular case, on the hiring slow and really getting kind of to the meat of what this person's about. And it could be in a sales position, but everybody in your company that has any kind of contact or any kind of interaction with your processes is basically representing your brand. Right. So you, you can't have desperate people in any position, you know, within your, within your business.

[Tim Roberts]

Right.

[Michael Martin]

And so I think, you know, like, you know, like you were saying, trying to find out, you know, how's their marriage not. And this is why it's important, like in the hiring process, having a conversational style really kind of brings out a lot of these things because, let's face it, everybody's got stuff they're dealing with and they're going to bring that to the workplace. Everyone says, I leave that stuff at home and I leave work at work and I leave. That's. You're not a human being, okay? Like, that's what a robot does.

[Tim Roberts]

But have you ever seen the show Severance?

[Michael Martin]

Yes.

[Tim Roberts]

Like, you'd have to have that to be able to do it.

[Michael Martin]

Right? Yeah.

[Tim Roberts]

For those who are not familiar, Severance is a show on Apple. You should Watch. A little weird, but yeah, it's a little weird.

[Michael Martin]

I got through the first episode and I was still like, yeah, it starts.

[Tim Roberts]

Picking up a little bit. But they have these. Basically, the idea is the employees have a chip put in their brain so when they go into work, once they hit the elevator, the chip activates and they don't remember anything from their real life while at work. And when they leave, it reactivates again. They don't remember anything from work in the real life. Like, so short of that. Yeah, you can't. You can't.

[Michael Martin]

Which isn't the case. But, you know, that doesn't mean that people that have stuff going on in their personal life couldn't be exemplary performance professionals and sales people. And again, that's why I think that having kind of these initial conversations is really important and spend as much time as you think to do it. The what's even worse than a person who's desperate that gets into your business is the hiring manager who's desperate to get people because they're going to cut their own throat and not even realize it when they're doing it. So, you know, this exercise of making sure that you're in a good place yourself, you're hiring for the right reasons and the right positions, you have it clearly spelled out, you know, what you're looking for as best possible. And then trying to, through asking a lot of questions, conversation style of the person in front of you, what their motivations are, what they're doing, how are they doing. I. I think that is great. And to your point of like, you know, a lot of people don't think of it, but like, having enough, especially in sales, having enough finances to get by. A long time ago, I. When I was a customer service rep and one of my first jobs out of college, there was a very seasoned sales agent who had a whole agency out on the west coast. And there was a point in time where he thought I might be somebody that could move out to the west coast and have a sales career with him in Southern California. And I remember we were at a trade show and I was. The idea of being a sales rep was like, really? I'm like, yeah, that could be great. It could be awesome. Southern California. It's going to be great. I love the products and all this kind of stuff. And so we went and had lunch at this trade show and he literally asked me one of the first things out of his mouth was, I get you're good at sales. There's no question that you can do the job. He goes, but you need six months worth of living expenses at California pricing, not new Hampshire pricing.

[Tim Roberts]

2X.

[Michael Martin]

And he's like. He goes, and if you don't have that or have access to that, I cannot hire you because you're gonna fail and you're gonna do things that are gonna be detrimental to me. And, you know, he was all about him. Right? I mean, he's like. Cause he didn't say to the brand. He's like, to me, I was like, ah. And it never had occurred to me at that point that, like, if you're starting out, there is a gap between when the commissions are paid, when the deal closes, and the commissions and. And that whole time, though, your life expenses are still going on.

[Tim Roberts]

Right. The bank doesn't care. Yeah.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah. So, you know, I think as a. As a. When you put on their hiring hat, and if you're wearing a lot of hats, like many of our listeners, when you put on that hiring hat, you've got to slow yourself down and make sure that you control kind of the conversation and the questioning so you get these facts out. You know, I know people that. I don't necessarily agree with Patrick's kind of views that, you know, you got to make sure their marriage is intact and all that. I know people who have had failed marriages or in the process of it, that actually did a really great job, and I know others that didn't, but I know some that did. So, you know, it's not a universal thing. But again, I think you just have to ask a lot of questions to get where their mental state is, because this is the person you're going to put in front of your consumers, and they are your consumers.

[Tim Roberts]

Right.

[Michael Martin]

Not their clients. It's your clients, and they're just your rep.

[Tim Roberts]

We were talking about that.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah.

[Tim Roberts]

The brand. Right. It's all about, you got to protect that brand. And there's been plenty of times where I've met a new sales rep for somebody I've known. They hired somebody, and you're immediately like, if you hired this person, what? You know, I mean, kind of conversation.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Tim Roberts]

Is there a particular question? You hired a lot more in sales, direct sales, than I ever have. Is there a particular question that you would use to try to see, you know, to try to feel that difference between motivated and desperate?

[Michael Martin]

Yeah. One of the things I would do is I would ask them kind of, you know, the first thing I'm looking for is do they have a positive attitude? Do they present themselves well and are they at ease in Having a conversation like, these are just kind of mental notes I'm making as we just initially start talking. Like, I mean, maybe even the first time I've seen them, I want to see if they're going like a lot of that or are they just comfortable having a conversation? Are they at ease with it in their own skin? That's an important thing. But one of the questions I would always ask is, what other lines do you carry? You know, other types of things do you do and how long have you been doing it?

[Tim Roberts]

Okay.

[Michael Martin]

Because if I. If it's people with like, really strong lines and they've been doing it for a while, then I know they're at least good enough to have been kept around by a very strong brand. So their performance must be pretty good. But if they were doing like too many, like a ton of lines or short periods of time, other, like, if they had, you know, three lines they had for 10 years and one line they picked up a month ago, I'm not going to discount that because, hey, they got another brand. Other brands investing them just like they're asking me to do. But if it's like, jump, constantly jumping around, then I have some issues. Or if they're trying to carry everything, like, if they got too many lines. And I also know that could be a sign of desperation because they're just trying to get things in so they can kind of make a little bit of money.

[Tim Roberts]

So just to clarify, because I guess I didn't even realize, like, you would have sales reps who would represent multiple brands.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah.

[Tim Roberts]

Okay. Interesting.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah. Not competing.

[Tim Roberts]

Right.

[Michael Martin]

You know, but they'd have other lines, whether they were tangential or, you know, know, running parallel. Like I was in, I. When I was in the shoe business, you know, they might have a sock line.

[Tim Roberts]

Okay.

[Michael Martin]

Or they might have a high performance hiking boot line or something like that. So I was look. Or a clothing line, something in the space. But I was kind of looking to see where they end. What, how is that brand perceived in the market and in the outdoor and running space. You know, it's. It's. For an industry as big as it is financially, it's pretty small in terms of brand representation. You know what I mean? So you get to know, like, who the players are and kind of what they're looking for in salespeople. So I would ask that question almost as a lead in, like, what other brands are you doing? What other lines are you doing? How long have you been doing them?

[Tim Roberts]

Yeah, my big, My big thing is always if they ask Any questions themselves? Like, if everything's like, yep, yep. Like, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's like, that kind of answer. That's more of a desperation stance. Like, they just want it, and it's like, versus, like, you know, is it the right. Are they even trying to see if it's the right fit for them, or are they just trying to take the next thing they can get their hands on?

[Michael Martin]

Yeah. And. And I'll tell you, you know, and the reason why I think it's. It's, like, important. And I talked about this the last podcast, but the importance of, like, slowing yourself down before you make a judgment. Yeah. Who's in front of you? So I was at a trade show once, and, you know, trying to hire a lot of people across the country for this footwear brand that I had that I was in charge of.

[Tim Roberts]

And.

[Michael Martin]

And I remember seeing this woman at this trade show that just. She. I could tell she was just trying to get my attention. You know, she. I'd be having conversations. I'm trying to sell product. I'm working with dealers. You know, I'm having these meetings. This is in the heyday of this brand. And so it was busy. And she just kept hovering and hovering and hovering. And there's a piece of me that was like, all right, it's going to be an oh, no. And I. Or is this going to be, like, something worth it? And I was walking to lunch, and I remember I felt a tap on the shoulder, and it was her. And I turned around and said, hey, can I help you? Like that. I've noticed you floating around the bush. She goes, I didn't want to disturb you. She goes, my name is Such and Such. I'm a sales rep. I'm in this state, and I cover this territory. And I just want to make sure that when you have time, please call me, because I'm very interested in this product. And I'm. And I'm. This is a product that I think I can really get behind. And she handed me her business card, and I handed her mine. And I was like, okay. I said, we'll have a conversation while I'm done for lunch. I haven't had a break in, like, 12 hours. I need to go sit because mentally, I have to clean myself out. You know what I mean? Like, from all the conversations, I make my notes and, you know, that type of stuff. But it ended up being one of the best hires I ever made, because having that conversation, she just was. She was desperate to get me her information so that I would at least have a conversation with her, right? And so if I had just discounted her, you know, I might have been, I don't want to deal. Look at the way she tried to get my attention. She chased me down. She did all this stuff, right? I'm glad I sat back, had a conversation where literally a day later that night, we emailed back and forth, and I was like, hey, come back to the booth tomorrow. I have a half hour open. She came in and she said, I'm carrying this brand. This brand, this brand, this brand. I've done my research on your brand. This is what I think about it. This is how I think it fits into what I'm doing. Here's my approach to read. She just went. And I'm like, oh, my God, I don't have to ask anything. She's literally presenting all the answers in narrative, conversational form to almost every question I typically asked. And she was awesome. So, you know, again, as an owner and hiring, you might think they might all look desperate if you're looking for desperation, right? But you have to slow yourself down. Conversely, I've had people who were really smooth and had the right answers and stuff, and turns out they were pretty. They were pretty desperate, but really good at masking it. And I was probably too much of a. Too naive at that point in my career for hiring where I didn't recognize it, you know, and. And then, you know, some damage done in terms of brand representation and just had to kind of cut loose a year later.

[Tim Roberts]

I think there's also. There's also truth that nobody bats a thousand when hiring.

[Michael Martin]

No, of course not.

[Tim Roberts]

I mean, and if you have, you probably got some bad. You just probably don't let go of people. Like, I mean, just a lot.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah, there's. That. You don't let go of people. There's the law of averages. You know, they catch up with you. But I think you can get better over time, of course, like any skill. But I do agree that. That, you know, desperate people take desperate measures. And unfortunately, there are. There are no winners in that, including the person who is desperate, because ultimately they end up getting fired to get in trouble. You know, in the mortgage space, if somebody misleads a consumer or something like that, I mean, it's dire consequences, not just for the consumer who's making a very large purchase, the largest purchase most people are ever going to make in their life, but the brokerage or the agency or the bank that that person works for, plus that person. I mean, there are financial and criminal implications to, you know, misleading people intentionally. And, you know, you have to be careful. But. But I think the worst thing ultimately for most people listening is probably just a reputational harm because they're always going to associate the brand with the mistake or the brand with the lie, or the brand with the misrepresentation, or the brand with a bad employee. And you know that to bridge that back takes a lot more effort than to have gotten the person originally.

[Tim Roberts]

Yes, that's the biggest challenge I think we all face in concern. And I think sometimes people get desperate to hire too, though. And so when they get desperate to hire, they ignore the. Those.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah.

[Tim Roberts]

And so I've seen that. It's definitely a challenge. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's hard to be patient, you know, if you find yourself in a need. Like, I really just need to be hiring people. I need more people. It is hard to be patient enough to really do your due diligence. But like you're saying it's. But here's here, doing it costs you a lot more effort and money and time. Right.

[Michael Martin]

But here's the other thing and why that patience is really key because if you don't do things patiently, you can't expect anybody in your organization to do things patiently. And that's when big mistakes tend to start happening. You start small, and then they see you. You lead by example. And if the example is one of haste, you know, haste makes waste, then that's where you're at. And I think, you know, step back, take a breath, you know, go into it with focus. You'll minimize your odds of a bad thing. And then like I kind of started with, you know, you hire slow. That's the. That's the goal. You'll hire better. And then when you do make a mistake, you fire fast.

[Tim Roberts]

Yes.

[Michael Martin]

Or. Or get that person into training or, you know, have. Have the hard conversation will be like, hey, you know, you can't be doing this stuff. And you got to figure out if you really want to be here, and if you really want to be here, these are the way you're going to have to do things. And if they can't do that, then, you know, it's like you help them out and you got. Or you help them out.

[Tim Roberts]

Right. Coach them up.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Roberts]

Which again, when you're. If you end up in the desperate part and you're trying to hire, we could be slow on that too. And that's. Ultimately, there's just so much risk to all of it that I think it's. It's just good advice to heed. I, like you said, it's not anything anybody says is not like a hundred percent for every single person. Like you said, you know, you've hired people who are great even though they were going through some personal stuff in the background. But I do think it's good advice to be asking those types of questions or trying to get a sense of those types of things 100% of the time and make those calls. There is truth to the whole. Perception is reality. So those first person, first time, first perceptions can be an issue. But I think, like you said, great story.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah. And I know off air, before we record table, we're talking about, like, you know, fake it till you make it and, and these kind of things. And so sometimes these people are really good at faking it and then you believe them. But, you know, use it as a learning lesson for yourself if you've been kind of questioning, unquote, taken advantage of at least the, the, the good thing about sometimes trying to make lemonade out of lemons is that no matter what bad situation you find yourself in, if, if you look, let the fog clear. But when you look, you can actually learn something. Right. And then, so the next time, don't make that mistake again because now it's not a mistake, it's ignorance.

[Tim Roberts]

Right.

[Michael Martin]

So if you make a mistake and you pay attention, like the next time, ask more questions, try and figure out a different way of doing it, and your odds of success are going to be a whole lot better. But unfortunately, there's a lot of desperation out there and, you know, you don't want any part of it.

[Tim Roberts]

It's. It's gonna, I think it's gonna tick up, not tick down, too.

[Michael Martin]

So I'm a crescendo.

[Tim Roberts]

Yeah. The, the other side. It's just funny because when you said that I thought of a lot. I'd talk. I've been talking to my daughter about a lot more just because she's getting older, she's going to high school, and, you know, dealing with like, friends that were friends that aren't for, like, all these things.

[Michael Martin]

Yeah, yeah.

[Tim Roberts]

And I keep reminder, I go, listen, once somebody shows you who they are, believe them. I was like, yeah, that's the big part. So, you know, I mean, like, you can't, you can't try to shake it. If they show you who they are, believe them. Find your people and you'll be fine. All right, very good, as always. Love to hear from all of you if you got any comments, questions, topics that kind of stuff, go to bnipowerofone.com leave it there. It could be business related. For the business matters, just let us know and leave us some feedback on Apple podcasts, Spotify, however you're finding us. Talk to you soon.

[Michael Martin]

Bye everybody.

[C]

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