← Bobby on the Beat
Bobby on the Beat
Competition Cooking, Influencer Jeremy Jacobowitz, Crab Spaghetti with Esther Choi
00:23:47
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- [00:00]
A
Bobby on the beat. All right, everybody. Welcome to the next episode. Today we have Esther Choi. Very excited. We've been good friends for a very long time, and I've watched this amazing chef's rise to fame and fortune.
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B
Kind of not yet.
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A
Okay. No. I know. You have good taste. You have very expensive taste.
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B
I can't help it.
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A
I know. It's okay if you like this, obviously, or if you don't like it, subscribe, please. Or if you're listening on the podcast. Thank you so much for listening as well. Let's get into it. When I first met you, you were on staff at the Food Network Kitchen.
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B
Oh, my go. Yes.
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A
You were on staff at the Food Network Kitchen. This was the one that was actually in Chelsea Market.
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B
At Chelsea Market. Right.
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A
Your reputation there. You know what your reputation was?
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B
I was good at making family meals.
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A
That's exactly right. Your reputation was like, that. You made the best family meal, meaning, like, for the staff, then everybody, because you were always using, like, your spectacular Korean flavors. And then you opened mock bar right downstairs in the Chelsea market, which is your Korean grub place.
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B
Yes.
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A
You continue to rise in the ranks of the food world. I always think of you as, like, this new up and coming person, but, like, those days are gone.
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B
Am I there? Am I not?
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A
You're absolutely part of the, like, that very successful food community. What's really amazing about you is that every time I turn around, you're doing something different. You like to say. Yes, is what I like to say.
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B
I know you always used to yell at me. Every time I call, you're like, just stop. Can you focus on, you know, a single thing and do it well? And I can't help it, because I do have. Obviously, chefs, we can't help ourselves. We're a little add, And I think I get, like, overly excited, but I think I've grew up since then, and I try to really focus on specific projects now, but. But I think it's a curse. Like, I can't stop.
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A
Okay, so. So what do you. What are you into right now? So you have restaurants, obviously. What. What else is happening?
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B
In the end, I'll forever love restaurants. And even though it'll kill my soul at many times, it's like a love hate. Like, I hate it so much, but I.
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A
We all feel that way, right?
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B
Yeah. So my restaurants will always make me grounded, and that will be my number one. I have several shows. I have a digital series, first on first refees, called Heat Eaters, where I make people eat spicy food, which you Know you. You've been on.
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A
I've been on that show that. Fantastic. And that's part of the. The Hot Ones family, right? Yes.
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B
Hot Ones Family. We're on season seven now.
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A
You are.
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B
Yeah, I know. And then the show on Food Network 24 and 24. Very successful, very successful show. Very fun and very different for me because I'm learning to be a host, which is very different than being a chef. I don't get to cook on the show, which I think it's pretty sad for me, but it's also exciting but really hard because it's a new skill that I have to learn and hone.
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A
So. So what would be the difference in your mind, like, between, like, your digital show, Heat Eaters versus like, your shows on the Food Network?
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B
Well, the biggest difference is that you have direct, like, audience connection with the digital series. So, like, first week, I read every single comment on every single episode.
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A
You do?
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B
I do. I'm like. But I'm not, like, crazy where I get, like, offended. I actually love the negative. I think they're hilarious.
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A
And.
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B
And I learn from my audience all the time. I'm like, oh, really? I didn't know that.
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A
I try to get Brooke not to read the comments.
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B
No. Because she has to read the comments. We have to read it.
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A
No, you don't.
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B
Yes. Also, I think women, we can't help ourselves. We just want to read it all and, like, sulk in the misery and then just, like, go crazy. And then you're just like, it's fine. We will get over it. And to me, it's important for my growth. I shouldn't. Cause sometimes it will get to me depending on.
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A
Look, you're folding your arms already. You get so defensive so quickly. And you're doing it to yourself this time. I haven't even asked you a question.
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B
I'm so competitive, as you know, in every part of my life. And so even with myself, I'm competitive with myself. I'm like, I'm reading the comments, and if an episode did worse than a previous episode, I'll, like, go crazy. I just strive to be better.
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A
That's okay.
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B
And that's the great thing about the digital series, where you can directly interact with your fans. I don't know if that's a positive or negative, but it's something that's different.
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A
One of my funnest days ever cooking on Food Network was against you.
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B
Oh, God.
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A
We did this holiday beat Bobby Flay.
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B
Battle when I had. You cooked the whole Korean feast.
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A
The Korean feast. And I said, I'm going to do it by myself. And you're like, no, I'm taking my partner. And I didn't. I didn't know what the dish was. I thought it was a dish. And it turned out to be a Korean feast. And I literally almost killed myself. I mean, obviously, you beat me easily.
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B
You lit something on fire.
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A
I think I almost lit the entire kitchen on fire. But it was. I mean, I think I made five or seven dishes. I can't even remember how many.
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B
When I saw what you made, I was in shock.
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A
I was exhausted and beat. And obviously you nailed it and won easily. I mean, I had the best time. I won't do that again. I wanna talk about Korean. Flavors influence all the things that are happening in our culture. Of course, because you're a big part of. But first, some people just give you a drink when they come to your podcast. I make you something to eat. So I thought about this dish for you. Cause obviously, I was not gonna make you anything Korean, that's for sure.
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B
Why not? But you always make me something Korean.
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A
Sometimes, but I'm not doing that this time. To me, you have this great crab rice dish that I've eaten so many times, which is so good. And also, you sell a lot of noodles in your restaurants. So I'm making you some crab spaghetti, which is obviously not Korean, but kind of some of the same componen. And let me show you how I made it. Bobby, on the beat. All right, we're making crab spaghetti with some breadcrumbs with anchovies. All right, first we're gonna cook the pasta. Some dried spaghetti, and lots of salt in the water. And now we're gonna make some crushed garlic. So we're gonna take some garlic, chop it up, put a little salt as an abrasive, and then kind of turn my knife sideways and crush the garlic. And we're gonna use that in a second. Here we go. A little bit of olive oil. Sweat the garlic a little bit to not achieve any color. Put some of the cooked spaghetti in there, some of that pasta, water with some of that starch, some jumbo love crab meat, some butter, and then it just kind of swims in that sauce for a minute. At the very end, we're going to add some parsley, and then some salt and pepper. Put that delicious crab spaghetti in the bowl. And then we're going to put some bread crumbs on top, some anchovy and garlic bread crumbs. So we have some crushed anchovies in there with Some oil, some good olive oil, and then some garlic, and then some panko bread crumbs so they're nice and crispy and crunchy. Toast them a little bit in the pan, and then put them on top of the crab spaghetti, and it's the perfect foil. And you're gonna eat this to the bottom of the bowl. Bobby, on the beat. I have to feed you something. Of course.
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B
Thank you.
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A
You're welcome. All right, let's talk about Korean food. Obviously, it's something that you're a master at, but the thing I love about your approach to it is that you understand and appreciate the authenticity of Korean food. But you also know that, like, you live in America, and, like, getting the mainstream world that we live in to understand it is not that easy. Right. Very hard, because if you just do everything completely authentic, it might be hard to reach people. So you have this kind of whimsy about the cuisine that you cook, but you also use all those incredible flavors. Like what? Talk a little bit about that.
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B
So I think it's important to have a foundation in, like, what you're cooking. So for me, that foundation is, you know, the traditional flavors of Korean food taught to me by my grandmother. So growing up, my grandmother obviously cooked very traditional Korean food, and it's really the flavors that she really nailed. Very authentic, but very like her as well. And we. We grew up here in South Jersey, and she had to be very, very resourceful in how she cooks Korean food, because in South Jersey, you couldn't just find Korean ingredients everywhere, so she had to use American things from the American supermarket and somehow create these flavors that she missed about home. So that was kind of how I adapted to cooking Korean food. Obviously, the foundational flavors of my grandmother of Korean food is there, but really, it's like I'm using what I have access to. So in New York, you do have access to a lot of things now.
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A
Sure, of course.
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B
But, you know, growing up in the industry, not. Not really. And I had to be very clever about how I did it.
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A
How would you describe mokbar? It's not. Would you say it's authentic?
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B
I would say the flavors are authentic. But nothing on the menu is an authentic Korean dish. Right. It's like, we. We serve a lot of, like, noodle bowls and rice bowls. And, yes, it's. It's all, like, Korean flavors reminiscent of a Korean dish.
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A
So.
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B
But that dish, like, for me, that foundation is, you know, the traditional flavors of Korean food.
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A
And so you think that that's something that people in America would gravitate towards to taste your flavors, but in a way that they recognize easier.
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B
Yeah. So they're not intimidated. Because I think a lot of times when you're in Cape Town and you're not Korean or with a Korean person, it could be very intimidating. Like, it's crazy there, right? So, like, I'm trying not to be super intimidating. I want to. To be very, like, inviting.
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A
I've been to Korea Town with you a couple times, and so fun. It's really fun. But you always say, if you go with me, it's going to be a different experience.
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B
Always.
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A
Well, tell me about that.
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B
Well, because I'm Korean, right? And I speak Korean fluently. I also, like, know how to order and I know how to talk to the waiters.
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A
Like, if I went in there by myself, they would cook for me differently than they would cook for you.
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B
I don't think that's the case now. Not nowadays. Because it's been. It's. It's so, like, now everyone visits K Town.
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A
I know the lines are down the block for every restaurant. Yeah, it's amazing.
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B
But if you go to K Town with me, I'll definitely get free, right? Like, I'll get, like, extra bottles of soju. Like, it's like, buy one, get one if you go with me.
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A
Soju is what. How would you describe it?
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B
Soju is like the most authentic Korean.
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A
It's like sake to Japanese food.
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B
Yes, yes. Very similar. And, like, soju is not something like, you see sip on you, like, take, like, shots of. Right. But it. But it's not like taking a shot of vodka. Like, it's not that strong. I would say it's equivalent to, like, wine when it comes to alcoholic level. When you do a cheers, you're drinking, like, the whole glass. You're not, like, really sipping on it, Right? Yeah.
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A
You know, so you. You were one of the earlier people to have a podcast in the world.
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B
Oh, my God.
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A
And, I mean, you did a great job. And the thing that I really realized is that one of the things that you open, like, my eyes to and who and whoever was listening to it as well, is that, you know, Korean culture, not just in food, but in every place in this country, is huge now. I mean, these K pop stars and obviously Korean cuisine and etc. And fashion and, like, what. Like, what is that all about? Like, what do you think? How did that happen?
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B
It's a movement. They call it the K Wave.
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A
Oh, the K Wave.
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B
Yeah, the K Wave. The Korean wave. And it was actually Planned by the government. So, like, government back when, you know, Korea went bankrupt. And this was not that long ago. It was, like, in the 70s. And, like, the Korean government came in. They were like, we're going to use pop culture to, you know, blow Korea. They had a whole plan on how to do it, and they used anything cultural. It's kind of like pop culture. Back when America became, like, super, like, the icon of, like, pop culture, like, that's what Korea wanted to do. So they used things like music, obviously entertainment, movies, and then also, like, Korean beauty. Like, every. Everything came in line, but it's all things that are, like, cultural. Right. It was definitely a very, like, strategic plan, but obviously it worked. And also, there's something with, like, Koreans that are just super cool.
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A
I know you are very pro Korean, that's for sure.
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B
I mean, yeah, any Korean you talk to are. They're all the same.
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A
So we have this confidence is high.
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B
I love confidence. Pride. It's like pride in their culture and who they are. And then we have this, like, anger. We call it Han H A n. And it's something that I think because we were such a suppressed country, like, everyone tried to take us over, like Japan, China, like, everyone just tried to, like, dominate us. But we were like, nope, it's not happening. And so we, like, always come back up. And I think that's what created this, like, extreme pride. And it comes hand in hand with, like, anger and passion and all those things. So any Korean kind of same. They have this, like, fire in their soul.
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A
All right, cool. That's really interesting. So in your restaurants, do you deal with, like, like, these food influencers? Influencer.
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B
They're my friends.
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A
How do you feel about, like, influencers these days?
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B
I think it's a new thing. It's just different and important. Right. Because now they are, you know, kind of all the rage. So you can't be.
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A
They do have influence.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Hence the word. All right, well, so what I'm doing is I'm picking a handful of influencers who think of themselves as food critics as well. So they have a very big job. If you want to go in and talk about somebody's career and cuisine, et cetera, like that, I think that it's important that you know what you're talking about.
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B
Right, I agree.
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A
And so I'm hand picking a few influencers out there, and I'm giving them a quiz. So let's see how this one did. Bobby on the Beat. I have to say, like, before, the word influencer was a thing you were doing it. That's how brunch boys was started. Right? Was it just about brunch first?
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C
Yeah, it was just like. I mean, it's like everything. It's like between gigs with you or whoever, it's like, I just want to make stuff.
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A
How do you feel about, like, critiquing restaurants? Do you feel like you have the right to do it? It is what it is. You're a paying customer. Yeah.
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C
My approach is. I always. I actually try and specify that I'm not there to critique a restaurant.
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A
Right.
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C
So it's very hard for me to be, like, positive and negative, positive and negative. I find that, like, for the most part, my job is to highl.
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A
The negative posts get better. More clicks than the positive.
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C
For me, my best performing videos are when I'm negative, which is not a good lesson to learn.
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A
You know, obviously, I find that to be unfortunate, but I really believe, like, people like you are really incredibly important to what's going on. And I always like looking forward as opposed to saying, no, we don't do it that way. I'm gonna test your knowledge a little bit. In my opinion, these are things that you see on menus all the time.
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B
What up?
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C
Do I win something?
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A
An accreditation from me, that's about it. Okay, define wagyu.
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C
I believe it comes from a very specific type of cow in Jap.
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A
The difference between gelato and ice cream, for the most part.
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C
Is it the fat concept?
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A
Do you know what espelet is? Oh, it's a chili pepper from the Basque region of France on a French dip sandwich. What is the dip made of?
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C
The jus from the meat.
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A
A negroni has three ingredients. Do you know what they are?
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B
Oh, man.
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A
What seed will you find in a classic rye bread? Caraway. What's a larger clam? A little neck or a cherry stone? Little neck. Correct. Do you like squid ink?
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B
Mm.
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A
Okay, so squid ink comes from squid and ink comes from another creature.
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C
Oh, damn. I never knew that.
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A
Cuttlefish. Do you know what a corn tortilla is made from? Masa. Yes, masa and water kimchi. Do you know what it is?
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C
Fermented cabbage.
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A
Main ingredient in a falafel is what chickpeas tahini is made from. What seed? I don't know. Whatever. Sesame seed.
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C
Sesame seed, of course.
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A
Classic fish and chips. The fish most likely would be what? Cod. Right. In what state in the U.S. do you think jambalaya is known to originate?
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C
Louisiana.
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A
Correct. What style of pizza in Italy has a puffy, like, leopard spotted crust? But has a soft, almost soupy center in the middle.
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C
Neapolitan.
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A
Yes. The classic cheese used to gratin a French onion soup is a classic. Affogato. Has two components. Do you know what they are?
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C
Espresso and ice cream.
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A
Correct. All right. That was fun. But, I mean, I think they're fair questions, don't you think? I think they're fair, I think. Okay. Ooh. Whoa, whoa. The one wonderful thing about food is that we'll never be able to know it all. I really feel like food influencers both have responsibility and a very hard job. Do you consider yourself a food critic or a food influencer?
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C
No, I say influencer. I make all my money influencing.
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A
Thanks for hanging out with us. Have fun in Paris. Thank you. Bobby on the beat. I mean, the thing about these influencers, that. And this is what I explain to people, like, you're a Korean chef. Like, I expect you to know about Korean food. That doesn't mean that you're going to know about every other cuisine. If you're a food critic, you really need to know everything. All these cuisines, kind of.
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B
It's a huge responsibility now.
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A
Exactly.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I think it's a. I think it's a huge responsibility, don't you?
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B
I feel like nowadays, if you're an influencer and you don't know what you're talking about, that's. People know right away.
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A
Yeah, totally. You turned me on to one of my favorite ingredients in the world. You know what it is?
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B
Gochujang.
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A
Yes. I remember the first time you gave me, like, a jar of it or something.
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B
Well, I, like, sent it to your green room.
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A
You made it yourself?
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B
I made it. I sent it to your green room. And I was like, I just want Bobby to try.
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A
How do you describe it?
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B
It's a fermented chili paste. So it's ground up chilies, Korean chilies, dried, ground up, and then it's mixed with starch, and then it's fermented in, like, an earthenware pot. Obviously, that's the traditional way of making it. And it's, like, usually fermented for, like, years, two to three years, blah, blah, blah. But nowadays, obviously, it's made in factories.
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A
Commercially.
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B
Commercially. And I think the fermentation is only like, three to six months.
- [17:27]
A
It's sweet, it's spicy, but it has.
- [17:30]
B
It's like, depth of flavor.
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A
No, it has an amazing depth of flavor. It's one of one. There's no substitute for it.
- [17:36]
B
No, there is not.
- [17:36]
A
It's kind of like saffron like saffron. I don't believe you can get the color of saffron, but the flavor of saffron is really on its own. So you added another job to your life, which is Mom.
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B
Oh my God, yes.
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A
How's that going?
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B
Hardest job I've ever had to have.
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A
And you've had hard jobs in your life?
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B
Oh, many, many hard jobs. I mean, think about walking into a restaurant saying that you're the new sous chef. As a 23 year old Korean woman with like 30 Mexican guys.
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A
Where was that?
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B
Lasquina. More than hard, like intimidating. Like, you know, I didn't know what I was doing. It was so scary. I've never been a sous chef ever, so that was like, different. But being a mom is like, I don't know, it's like, it's because you just feel like it. First of all, it's never ending, right? There's no like, end point. Like, you're just kind of like, you do it and then now it's forever.
- [18:28]
A
This is, this is a career job. So how does that change your work life?
- [18:32]
B
I think that struggle is still very real and I'm still struggling to figure that out. And like, even though I want to take a step back, I think it's hard for me to do that because it's like, well, I can't really be a full time, like, stay at home mommy. It would never happen. Also, I would be really bad at it. You know, I'm very good at doing like lists and schedules and like, things like that. But like, when it comes to like reading a book for the same book over and over again for six hours, I just like, I realize I'm like really bad at that.
- [19:03]
A
When you have a child, I think, you know, especially for people in our profession, you know, it's always go, go, go. It's always competitive. It's always like long hours. It's like tough working conditions sometimes. And it's always that sort of, that, that sort of grind, you know, and like, you're always kind of on edge. I felt like when I had Sophie, it kind of, you know, maybe it's because I had a daughter. It kind of softened my edges somewhat. You feel like some of that has happened to you?
- [19:30]
B
Oh, my God. I'm a totally different person. Like now I'm like super emo, which I never used to be. Like, I. You couldn't like, pull a tear out of my eye, but now with my son, I watch a commercial and I'm like crying. I'm like, what the F. That's great.
- [19:44]
A
That's amazing. It's a new side of you. Come on, Esther. It's okay. Nobody's gonna think you're not tough. Trust me. Speaking of being tough, Iron Chef, when Netflix did their version of Iron Chef and you were one of the competitors and probably the best competitor against the Iron Chefs.
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B
Well, I made it to the finale.
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A
How do you feel about that kind of competition?
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B
That is totally my style of competition, because, like, it's kind of like opening a restaurant, right? You don't want to open a restaurant without doing all the work beforehand. And to me, like, the competition model right now, it's, like, a lot of, like, unknowns, which is great in its own right. But for my style of cooking and prepping and for someone who, like, puts a lot of effort into the thought process beforehand and afterwards, like, Iron Chef fits that bill for me. By the way, I worked on, like, six seasons of Iron Chef when I worked at Food Network as, like, a prep cook, I actually was in charge of the ingredients.
- [20:45]
A
Okay, so you were producing kind of.
- [20:48]
B
Yeah, so. And that obviously prepped me for, like, how to prep for battle.
- [20:52]
A
You have to make 25 dishes. You have to make five of each one. Five of each one in an hour. It's a lot of food.
- [20:58]
B
Food. It's a lot of food, and it's crazy. It's, like, the amount of, like, meticulous planning that goes into each paddle is insane. And for me, like, obsessing over that kind of menu planning is very my style.
- [21:12]
A
So if Iron Chef America ever came back, like, it's my show, would you be. Would you accept, like, being an Iron Chef?
- [21:21]
B
The scary thing is it would, like, consume me, consume my life, because I would be so obsessed with it. And. But it. That, to me, is, like, the goal is to do that.
- [21:35]
A
So you would say yes.
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B
Are you serious? I would, like, die for the opportunity, yes. I love restaurants. Well, I'll open however many restaurants, blah, blah. But, like, something like that is so special. And to me, it's been my childhood. What I loved watching growing up, I worked on the shows. I've competed and done well, and it's like, I want more of it.
- [21:57]
A
Maybe there's Iron Chef America in your future. Who knows?
- [22:00]
B
Are you gonna bring it back?
- [22:02]
A
Who knows one day? You never say never.
- [22:05]
B
I must say, like, any competition show, I always decline, obviously. Like, I've been asked to be on every competition show.
- [22:11]
A
You did great on Triple Threat.
- [22:13]
B
Oh, man. That was a hard show.
- [22:15]
A
You did great, though.
- [22:16]
B
Yeah. I mean, I did okay, because I won, but it's like, I didn't perform as well as I wanted to. And it's like, that's the thing about being obsessed, right? You relive it over and over. You plan for it, you do it. And, like, for me, the amount of times I watched that episode and thought about how, like, I should have done better even though I won, like, it doesn't even matter. It's not even about that. Sometimes it's like, as a chef, you're just crazy.
- [22:46]
A
Do you remember that episode?
- [22:47]
B
So every detail, what you do against Brooklyn, I mean, thank God that's how I won. Sorry, Brock. I love you so much. If your rice cooker worked, I would have lost that day. I got lucky.
- [23:01]
A
Isn't it nice that during the podcast, there's also a titan in the room?
- [23:03]
B
I know, Honestly, and I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But I'm not sorry also, because it's like, because of that one piece of luck, I won the episode.
- [23:13]
A
This was awesome. Thank you so much. You're welcome.
- [23:15]
B
Thank you for having me.
- [23:16]
A
All right, thanks for watching, everybody. This has been an amazing episode with my good friend Esther Choi. Next week, we have Katie Parla, who is the American girl in Italy, whenever any chefs need to know anything about Rome, we all call Katie Parla. She's the girl. So we're gonna have. We're gonna have Katie here talking about her new book about Rome. So, you know, that's gonna be a delicious episode. We'll see you then, Bobby. On the.