Can a Perfect Bagel Be Made Without Fossil Fuels?

Summary

Boiling Point: Can a Perfect Bagel Be Made Without Fossil Fuels?

Episode Release Date: March 13, 2025
Host: Sammy Roth, Climate Columnist, Los Angeles Times
Guest: Emily Winston, Founder and Owner of Boychik Bagels

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Introduction: A Love for Bagels and Climate Concerns

In this compelling episode of Boiling Point, Sammy Roth explores the intricate relationship between traditional food businesses and climate policy. The conversation centers around Emily Winston, the passionate founder of Boychik Bagels, who grapples with the challenges of maintaining authentic bagel-making processes in the face of stringent climate regulations.

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The Heart of the Issue: Berkeley's Measure GG

Berkeley’s Measure GG aimed to curb natural gas consumption in large buildings by imposing a tax on its usage. Emily Winston discusses how this measure directly threatened her business operations.

• Emily Winston [05:37]:
  “Based off of like the most recent three months of gas bills, I took a look at if I just extrapolated that over the next year, I was looking at about a $46,000 charge.”

Measure GG would have imposed an initial annual tax of approximately $46,000 on Boychik Bagels, escalating to around $250,000 in subsequent years with planned production increases. This financial burden would have diverted crucial funds away from business expansion and employee salaries.

• Emily Winston [07:16]:
  “Yeah, I’d rather be doing other things with 250,000. It’s not. We are not that large of a company where $250,000 is like a sneeze.”

The measure ultimately failed due to vigorous opposition from Boychik and other local businesses, highlighting the tension between environmental objectives and economic viability for small enterprises.

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Authenticity in Bagel Making: Gas-Fired Kettles and Ovens

Emily provides an insider’s look into the traditional methods that define the quality of New York-style bagels. The use of natural gas is integral to achieving the perfect texture and flavor.

• Emily Winston [08:32]:
  “A proper New York water bagel has to be boiled before it’s baked. And so you want to have a big pot of boiling water.”

Boychik Bagels employs gas-fired kettles for boiling and direct-fired ovens with revolving stone decks for baking. This setup ensures even heat distribution, crucial for the distinctive bottom crust of their bagels.

• Emily Winston [10:04]:
  “We are cooking with gas.”

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The Challenge of Electrification: Technical and Logistical Hurdles

Transitioning to electric appliances presents significant challenges. Emily highlights the absence of suitable electric ovens that can replicate the precise conditions achieved by gas-fired models.

• Emily Winston [11:34]:
  “I had to do some real research on figuring out. There’s some other companies that offer that. Does it even make a bagel of the same quality? I don’t know.”

Moreover, the high cost and uncertainty associated with electric alternatives add to the reluctance. The current electric ovens that could potentially replace gas models are either prohibitively expensive or unproven in producing the same quality of bagels.

• Emily Winston [12:38]:
  “That would be bad for your business because the business is bagels. So if the bagels have to be subpar…”

Additionally, securing the necessary electrical upgrades from Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) is a protracted and cumbersome process, often taking over a year, which further complicates the transition.

• Emily Winston [13:54]:
  “It took over a year to get our electrical upgrade, which is not uncommon for PG&E.”

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Broader Implications for Climate Policy

Emily offers critical insights into how climate policies must balance environmental goals with the practical realities faced by businesses. She emphasizes the need for sensitivity towards specialized equipment essential for certain industries.

• Emily Winston [17:09]:
  “I think you need to be sensitive to the fact that not everything that’s running on gas is a hot water heater.”

She advocates for phased approaches, such as initially targeting only easily replaceable appliances like hot water heaters, while allowing more time and support for industries that rely heavily on natural gas.

• Emily Winston [18:43]:
  “If you just said no new installation of gas hot water heaters, I think that would be a much more reasonable approach, especially for new construction.”

Emily warns against rapid electrification without adequate infrastructure, drawing parallels to the challenges faced with electric vehicle adoption due to insufficient charging networks.

• Emily Winston [20:46]:
  “These are the pitfalls, like, because if the state and if the utilities don’t address exactly what you’re talking about, there’s going to be such an intense backlash that it’s never going to happen.”

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Recommendations for Policymakers and Businesses

Based on her experiences, Emily provides several recommendations to ensure that climate policies are effective yet considerate of business operations:

1. Gradual Implementation:
   Policies should allow for a gradual shift, giving businesses ample time to adapt.

2. Industry-Specific Provisions:
   Recognize the unique needs of different industries and provide tailored solutions.

3. Infrastructure Support:
   Invest in and expedite the expansion of renewable energy infrastructure to facilitate the transition.

4. Stakeholder Engagement:
   Engage with business owners and industry experts during the policy formulation process to anticipate challenges and develop practical strategies.

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Future Outlook: Balancing Tradition with Sustainability

Looking ahead, Emily contemplates the possibility of eventually transitioning to electric equipment, especially as Boychik Bagels plans to expand into new markets like Los Angeles. However, she remains cautious, prioritizing the quality and authenticity of her product.

• Emily Winston [22:14]:
  “So, yeah, I’m putting that on the lengthy to-do list. This is the question of the future.”

Emily’s journey underscores the broader narrative of how traditional businesses can navigate the complex landscape of climate change mitigation while preserving their unique cultural and culinary identities.

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Conclusion: Navigating the Path Forward

Sammy Roth and Emily Winston’s dialogue sheds light on the intricate balance between environmental sustainability and economic practicality. As climate policies become more stringent, the need for collaborative efforts between policymakers, businesses, and the community becomes increasingly vital to ensure a sustainable and equitable transition.

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Notable Quotes

• Emily Winston [05:37]:
  “I was looking at about a $46,000 charge. But that is saying that we were not going to increase production...”

• Emily Winston [08:32]:
  “A proper New York water bagel has to be boiled before it’s baked.”

• Emily Winston [12:38]:
  “That would be bad for your business because the business is bagels.”

• Emily Winston [17:09]:
  “Not everything that’s running on gas is a hot water heater.”

• Emily Winston [20:46]:
  “There’s going to be such an intense backlash that it’s never going to happen.”

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This episode of Boiling Point offers a nuanced perspective on the intersection of culinary tradition and climate action, highlighting the challenges and considerations essential for fostering a sustainable future without compromising on quality and cultural heritage.

Transcript

[Emily Winston]

This is an LA Times Studios podcast.

[Sammy Roth]

I was absolutely devastated a few months ago when I learned that my favorite New York bagel shop, Absolute Bagels in Manhattan, was shutting down. I had finished so many long nights at my college newspaper by stepping out of the office, walking down the street, and getting in line at Absolut sometimes. I was their first customer at 6am.

[Emily Winston]

I didn't sleep a lot in college.

[Sammy Roth]

All of which is to say, I.

[Emily Winston]

Love a good bagel.

[Sammy Roth]

And I'd heard from my brother's family.

[Emily Winston]

In the San Francisco Bay area that.

[Sammy Roth]

Boy chick bagels make some of the very, very best. No, you haven't turned on a food podcast by mistake. My name is Sammy Roth and I'm the climate columnist for the Los Angeles Times. This is Boiling Point, and this week we're going to hear from Boychick Bagels founder and owner, Emily Winston.

[Emily Winston]

We have great water here, and the water is chemically similar to New York. We're not like that, different from New York's water.

[Sammy Roth]

Winston gave me a tour of her bagel factory in November, a few weeks after the election. She had just finished campaigning against a local ballot measure in the city of Berkeley that supporters said would have helped fight climate change. The ballot measure would have taxed natural gas consumption in large buildings. That would have been good for the planet and for human health because natural gas is a fossil fuel. But the ballot measure could have been hard on business owners like Emily, who said they had no easy way to switch from gas to electric appliances.

[Emily Winston]

Good manufacturing processes. I know this is a lot of things.

[Sammy Roth]

See, according to Emily, it's not actually.

[Emily Winston]

The water that makes a great bagel.

[Sammy Roth]

A lot of it is the gas kettles and ovens. That's the way it's always been done. And at Bojchik, Emily does things the way they've always been done.

[Emily Winston]

It's a Jewish themed place, Yiddish name and a mezuzah in the door.

[Sammy Roth]

Climate change is a political and public policy problem for sure, but it's also a cultural problem. We need to start living our lives differently. We need to ways to live with bigger wildfires and less reliable water supplies, even if that means designing our homes and our neighborhoods a little bit differently. And just as important, we need to stop global warming from getting too much worse, which means using less plastic and driving electric cars and eating less meat. And then there's cooking, which is why I was so eager to talk with Emily. I wanted to ask her, is it possible to make a perfect bagel with electricity instead of gas? For now, at least, Berkeley residents don't have to answer that question. The ballot measure didn't pass, partly because Bojcik and other prominent businesses campaigned so hard against it. But this question isn't going away, not in our lifetimes. So let's hear what Emily had to say about climate change and bagels.

[Unknown]

It's sort of very similar as to being a foster parent. You go in it not for the length of time, but to know that even two months or 10 years can still create a big impact in a child's life. So CASA is a nonprofit organization that stands for Court Appointed Special Advocate, and they specialize in making making sure that the child's needs are met, whether it's medical, health, educational, and ensuring that the child is receiving the most ability they can.

[Emily Winston]

Emily Winston, thank you for being with us on the Boiling Point podcast.

You're welcome. Happy to be here.

So what was your first reaction when you, when you learned about Measure gg, this natural gas tax that was gonna be on the ballot in Berkeley?

My first reaction was what? And let me see the details because I wanna know what exactly we're looking at here. So, yeah, I went and found the text and read it.

And what did you find out?

I found out I was gonna be in for a heap of unpleasant surcharges and that also a ton of other businesses in town were going to be also. Who actually didn't realize it. There were a number of other business owners because I know a lot of people in the food space in town who I reached out to and said, hey, do you know about this? And they said no, or they either said no or I kind of heard about it, but I, you know, I didn't. That doesn't affect me. Doesn't. I said no, it does for a number of people. So that was a big stance I took, was educating people on what this actually entailed because it wasn't really publicized and it wasn't clear on the face of it what it was actually going to mean for business owners.

So how bad would it have been for you? I mean, this measure was ultimately defeated by an overwhelming majority of voters. But if this thing had passed, how much tax would you have had to pay on the gas that you use in your factory to make your bagels?

So based off of like the most recent three months of gas bills, I took a look at if I just extrapolated that over the next year, I was looking at about a $46,000 charge. But that is saying that we were not going to Increase production, which we were planning to. And that's just for the first year. And, you know, I did it up in Excel with 6% annual increases plus giving a 3% average inflation number. So that's a 9% growth every year. So it raises up pretty quickly. So it came to, like. I forget what it was exactly. I have to look it up, but it was, like, came to $250,000 in a matter of years. And especially if we increase production, which is what we are planning to do here, because I built this large facility to make a lot of bagels. So that's what the plan is. And I was looking at, you know, $46,000 is not going to put us under, but it's certainly not exactly what I would like to be doing with money when that could be doing other things.

Right. I'm not going to ask you, like, what your profit margin is, but I'm guessing that even for a pretty successful bagel company like Boychik, $50,000, or if you expand a lot, $250,000. That's a lot of money. That's money you could be using to pay people or open new shops or do all sorts of stuff besides all sorts of things.

Yeah, I'd rather be doing other things with 250,000. It's not. We are. We are not that large of a company where $250,000 is like a sneeze. And we, you know, it's nothing to us.

How many employees do you have?

Our company now with nine stores, we have 200 employees total around the Bay Area.

Wow. And that's. That's all expanded pretty quick. Right? I mean, it wasn't that long ago.

We just. Just about to turn five years old since I opened the first door.

Wow. And already, was it the New York Times that said, you have the best bagels in the country?

Yeah, yeah, that was. It blew the roof off of us. Did they say pushed for the expansion? We had such huge demand, and even after it settled down, after a few months, we were at a new plateau. And I did some real soul searching and said, do I. I could stay with my one wildly successful bagel shop or maybe I should grow it. And so did a lot of thinking about that, how do I want to grow it? And came up with a plan for one large central facility and stores around the Bay and made that happen.

And that is what led to the factory that you were just showing me around a few minutes ago.

Yeah, that's what led to the factory.

So from what I gathered and Just looking around the factory with you, it sounds like the most important places where you use natural gas for heating in that factory are the kettles where you boil the bagels in water and the ovens. Right. And that's one. Step one is the kettle, step two is the oven. Right. So explain that process. Why is that so important to making these great New York style bagels?

So a proper New York water bagel has to be boiled before it's baked. And so you want to have a big pot of boiling water. You let the bagel swim in it for about 30 seconds, you take it out, and then you want to bake it in an oven directly on a stone deck. So this hot stone deck is what really gives the awesome bottom crust.

And.

And when I did my research on bagels in New York and I went around and snooped around and looked at all the ovens everyone was using. And everyone was using this revolving deck.

Oven where they kind of rotate in a big circle.

It revolves. It's kind of like a Ferris wheel, but there's like five decks and they spin around. So your kind of work comes to you because. And so this oven, which had been super high tech 100 years ago, now no one wants to use it, except for basically bagel shops and pizza shops. Because anything anyone who's doing regular artisan bread, like loaf bread, would take a do a stone deck oven. But it's like long and deep. So you kind of, because you just load the bread in and bake it and like load it out. But bagels and pizza, you need to kind of reach in while it's baking and move them around. So you can't have this long deep oven. You need it to be shallow where you can reach in and move your product around. So a lot of the not that great bagels are made in a rack oven using steam. And you're not getting the same product out of it at the end.

And you told me there's actually a fire somewhere in there. I couldn't see it, but there's flame.

Yeah. So the ovens are. It's a direct fired and that's important. So we have basically the oven is essentially a big insulated box with this Ferris wheel inside of it. And then at the bottom is basically what the same sort of thing that you'd have in your barbecue grill, like a pipe with all these flames coming out of it. And that's like at the bottom center of the oven. So we're just burning all this natural gas and making all this heat that's filling up the oven and baking the bagels. And because the shelves are revolving around. So they're kind of getting the air circulated. So when they're at the bottom and they're right over the flame, they're getting that particular heat. Then they're moving up and it's kind of making it a much more even heat than if it was not moving at all.

And the kettles, the step before the oven where you boil the bagels in the water to make them the New York style water bagel, the natural gas provides the heat for that as well. It heats the water to the right temperature.

Yeah. So we're. Yes, it's burning. These are a jacketed kettle. So the burning is happening inside and it's actually heating a pressurized liquid jacket and then heating the contents inside there. It's kind of like a double boiler, but we have. Which is in a lot of ways more efficient than just a straight pot kind of boiler, which we have in our original store.

So you are proverbially cooking with gas.

We are cooking with gas. We are.

[Sammy Roth]

Could you do those two steps, one.

[Emily Winston]

Or both of them with electric appliances if you wanted to?

So I know that the kettles do come in electric models. I had not researched that beforehand. Basically you opened this factory, what, a.

Year and a half ago?

A year and a half ago. Boiling water is not that technically, you know, crazy and particular to do. So the bagels are. As long as the water is boiling, the bagels will be happy. The oven, the particular model of oven that we use does. This company does not make electric versions. So I'd have to do some real research on figuring out. There's some other companies that offer that. Does it even make a bagel of the same quality? I don't know. I am unaware of anyone making a top notch bagel in an electric oven.

And you've done your homework on that, right? I mean, you've visited the best bagel shops all over the place.

They're all running gas because it's a direct fired gas. So that's a question like can it be done in an electric oven and maybe, but I have to figure that out. And the last thing I want to do is make a huge investment and turn out subpar bagels.

So I imagine that would be bad for your business.

That would be bad for your business because the business is bagels. So if the bagels have to be.

Good and that oven, I mean, that is an expensive oven, right? I mean, what did you quote that at? Was it 60,000?

Yeah. $60,000.

Okay. And so even if an electric oven did exist, one, it would probably be more expensive and you'd need to find it, and two, you don't know if it would work as well.

Yeah. So we have to. Yeah, there'd be a. That's a whole project. And to rip out existing equipment is, you know, the opposite of efficient. I just, you know, just got this built a year and a half ago, and it's intended to last decades. So one question is, you know, are there. Is there an electric oven that'll work properly? Can I get it in? Maybe I'll install it as a. As we grow. But the other big piece is, do we have enough power here even to do that, or am I stuck waiting on PG&E another year plus for more power?

Right. Because you're a customer of Pacific Gas and Electric and you were saying to do the electrical upgrades that you needed even to just run the electricity for your freezers. I mean, it's very cold in your coolers to keep the dough and to keep the cream cheese cold. I mean, you said that took a very, very long time. Right.

It took over a year to get our electrical upgrade, which is not uncommon for PG E. That's actually standard. Everyone says, like, if you're getting. If you're going to need an upgrade from PG and E, you're going to be waiting at least a year.

Right. And I mean, I think you're probably familiar with this, but one of the issues, I mean, in climate policy, there's a big push for electrifying a lot of stuff. Electric transportation, electric buildings. One of the real obstacles to that is it takes a long time, especially when you're in PG and E territory, which is a lot of California, to get stuff connected to the grid. Because PG and E is a big, bulky company that moves slowly. And it sounds like you've confronted that firsthand.

Yeah. It would be lovely if we could snap our fingers and have a. Have the grid be 100% renewable and clean. And everyone has upgraded to have as much clean power as they want. But unfortunately, that does not happen with.

PG and E. So you campaigned against Measure gg. In fact, that's how I learned about. That's how I decided to come talk to you or decided I wanted to come talk to you. I think I read. I think it was a Berkeley side article where I saw that you had gone and made a pitch to the city council that this was a bad idea. You know, what would you have done if this measure had passed? What would that have meant for your business?

You mean that we'd be looking at paying a penalty for probably at least a few years. So it would be starting at. Given our current usage, we're looking at like at least a $46,000 a year penalty. That'll grow at about 9% a year and that's without doing any more production. But of course, I just built this a year and a half ago and we're planning to make a lot more bagels. So as we, you know, increase our production, that takes more gas and then our, our penalty bill goes up and up and it's growing at 9%. So what right now is basically a tripling of natural gas price would go by at the end of its term at 2050 turns into a 9x. Whatever your natural gas bill is, do.

You think you would have stayed in business? I mean, would you have figured out a way to deal with it?

Well, at least in this, in the short term, we would just be. We would just be paying the bill and that would be money that's going to. That and not to other things. It's not like it would. We're in a better position than a lot of other company people that would be affected by this bill in town where we are running a profitable business. One of the things I did was go out and educate a lot of other people that did not know and for whom it would be catastrophic.

What would your advice be? I mean, and go in whatever direction you want with this question. But for people in other cities who. Because Berkeley is kind of a trendsetter in this regard. Right. When Berkeley in 2019 was the first city to pass a measure saying no gas and new buildings, which was ultimately thrown out in court as a result of a lawsuit. But other cities went and did the same thing. Dozens of other cities in California and around the country. What would be your advice for people in other cities who are working on climate change and who are interested in trying to convert new and existing buildings from gas to electric? Based on your experience, what would you tell them? What would you say to those folks? What should they be thinking about from your perspective?

I think you need to be sensitive to the fact that not everything that's running on gas is a hot water heater. That's the first thing. Because I think these bills are generally written with that in mind, that it's like, what's the big deal? Just replace your hot water heater. But there's a lot of very specialized equipment out there. There's. I have a brewery across the street that their entire operation runs on natural gas. So a lot of the food industry, especially if you want anything that's running that's producing heat as part of your process, either with food or other industrial processes, that equipment is, is almost certainly running on heats. And people have huge investments in that. So I think doing something where you're going to say, you know, for new construction or upgrades or, or replacing of things that can be, you know, even starting with just the hot water heaters makes a lot more sense than just everything that you're doing, everything that you've invested in, we're going to start penalizing you for and giving a better timeline so people can know going in before they, if they're, you know, there's not. That equipment is not so easily done in electric. There's been a lot of push. The restaurant association really fought the previous measure and sued over it because there's not the kitchen technology in place for certain cooking processes to be done with electric instead of gas.

Right. I think you told me that the previous measure that the California Restaurant association sued and got overturned, no gas in new buildings. You would have supported that if they had just carved out food services in restaurants. Right.

If you carved out food or just say something that's more basic, if you're just to say all of your specialized equipment, you just can't use it at all, is pretty rough. If you just said no new installation of gas hot water heaters, I think that would be a much more reasonable approach, especially for new construction. I don't know how the BA QMD legislation, district that's coming in starting effective 26, saying all residential homes, residential hot water heaters need to be like, we won't be allowed to buy any.

Right.

I believe that that's already happening. Yeah, it happened for the Bay Area.

Install a new hot water heater.

No, it's not even install a new. Well, a new one.

It's going to be.

So if you have. I'm. I'm really curious because I learned about this through all my research on this, how that's going to work because normally people don't replace their hot water heater until their current one dies. And of course it's, you know, chilly out and then they're like, I need a new hot water heater, you know, today. And they call their plumber in a panic and normally get it installed. But if you need to, if you, you know, what's, what's going to happen with that, where they're going to say, and the plumber's going to say we don't have any, you know, we can't put you a gas one and we need to convert you to electric. And oh, by the way, you don't have enough electricity. You need to wait for PG and error. You need to get a PG and E upgrade to your house before we can put that in. Or we need to run a high power line to that closet or actually that closet. Apparently a lot of the electric ones, they need more space to like breathe. All these things are going to be like. And people are, you know, they're not just recreate. People are not generally recreationally replacing their hot water heater. So I don't know how that is going to handle this when all of these people are in a panic and then are without hot water. For are we going to, is the legislation going to say, well, too bad you're going to sit around with freezing water for six months while you get this work done in your house?

I got to be honest with you, I write about climate and clean energy policy and I think there's a very, very, for climate change reasons, I think there's a strong need for rapid electrification of just about everything. But you're identifying the biggest and most real problems with it. I mean, these are the, these are the pitfalls, like, because if the state and if the utilities don't address exactly what you're talking about, there's going to be such an intense backlash that it's never going to happen.

I was looking on the website, I don't see any. The only thing I could find was them saying, oh, we should have a meeting to figure out how we're going to do with this. I'm like, that's the plan. How are we going to deal with this? It's coming up in, in just over a year.

It's the same thing with electric vehicles, by the way. It's like, it's great to tell, to say you have to buy electric vehicles by this date because that's necessary because the climate science says if you don't reduce emissions by this date, the world is going to be unlivable. But if you also don't have a reliable charger network by this time and then you have to buy electric cars by this time, then people are going to rebel. And that's just reality. So you've got to find a way to deal with the infrastructure. And you're experiencing that.

Yeah. And how, if you live in an apartment building, that's a much bigger question than how you're going to deal with an electric car if you don't have a place to charge at home? The charging infrastructure better be good because how are you going to deal with that if you can't just charge overnight?

So let me ask you this. You're thinking about. You're thinking about. You're planning to expand to Los Angeles, I think you told me you're going to open shops in Los Feliz and downtown in the Bradbury Building, famous from Blade Runner. You know, the state is moving in the direction of trying to incentivize all electric buildings. Not requiring it, but incentivizing it. Any chance that you'll be thinking about more electric equipment down there?

I think that's going to be. That's going on my research list. Because that's the big question. Can I make my bagel come out the way I want it in an electric oven? And what oven is that? So, yeah, I'm putting that on the lengthy to do list.

This is the question of the future.

Yeah.

Emily, thank you very much for your time.

You're welcome.

Some good news for those of you.

[Sammy Roth]

Who live in Southern California. Boychik just opened its first shop outside the Bay Area and it's on Hollywood Boulevard in Los Feliz.

[Emily Winston]

And by the way, I did try.

[Sammy Roth]

The bagels up in Berkeley.

[Emily Winston]

They're delicious.

[Unknown]

Thank you for listening to Boiling Point. I'm your host, Sammy Roth. My producers are Mary Knoff and Jonathan Shiflett. Sound design and original music by Jonathan Shiflett. Elijah Wolfson is our editor. Denise Callahan is our studio manager. Ben Church is our production manager. Nick Norton is our engineer. Special thanks to LA Times Studio president, Anna Magzanian, president and chief operating officer of the Los Angeles Times, Chris Argentieri, and executive editor of the Los Angeles Times, Terry Tang. Boiling Point is executive produced by Darius Derekshon and created by me, Sami Roth.