Boiling Point: Can a Perfect Bagel Be Made Without Fossil Fuels?

Episode Release Date: March 13, 2025
Host: Sammy Roth, Climate Columnist, Los Angeles Times
Guest: Emily Winston, Founder and Owner of Boychik Bagels

Introduction: A Love for Bagels and Climate Concerns

In this compelling episode of Boiling Point, Sammy Roth explores the intricate relationship between traditional food businesses and climate policy. The conversation centers around Emily Winston, the passionate founder of Boychik Bagels, who grapples with the challenges of maintaining authentic bagel-making processes in the face of stringent climate regulations.

The Heart of the Issue: Berkeley's Measure GG

Berkeley’s Measure GG aimed to curb natural gas consumption in large buildings by imposing a tax on its usage. Emily Winston discusses how this measure directly threatened her business operations.

• Emily Winston [05:37]:
  “Based off of like the most recent three months of gas bills, I took a look at if I just extrapolated that over the next year, I was looking at about a $46,000 charge.”

Measure GG would have imposed an initial annual tax of approximately $46,000 on Boychik Bagels, escalating to around $250,000 in subsequent years with planned production increases. This financial burden would have diverted crucial funds away from business expansion and employee salaries.

• Emily Winston [07:16]:
  “Yeah, I’d rather be doing other things with 250,000. It’s not. We are not that large of a company where $250,000 is like a sneeze.”

The measure ultimately failed due to vigorous opposition from Boychik and other local businesses, highlighting the tension between environmental objectives and economic viability for small enterprises.

Authenticity in Bagel Making: Gas-Fired Kettles and Ovens

Emily provides an insider’s look into the traditional methods that define the quality of New York-style bagels. The use of natural gas is integral to achieving the perfect texture and flavor.

• Emily Winston [08:32]:
  “A proper New York water bagel has to be boiled before it’s baked. And so you want to have a big pot of boiling water.”

Boychik Bagels employs gas-fired kettles for boiling and direct-fired ovens with revolving stone decks for baking. This setup ensures even heat distribution, crucial for the distinctive bottom crust of their bagels.

• Emily Winston [10:04]:
  “We are cooking with gas.”

The Challenge of Electrification: Technical and Logistical Hurdles

Transitioning to electric appliances presents significant challenges. Emily highlights the absence of suitable electric ovens that can replicate the precise conditions achieved by gas-fired models.

• Emily Winston [11:34]:
  “I had to do some real research on figuring out. There’s some other companies that offer that. Does it even make a bagel of the same quality? I don’t know.”

Moreover, the high cost and uncertainty associated with electric alternatives add to the reluctance. The current electric ovens that could potentially replace gas models are either prohibitively expensive or unproven in producing the same quality of bagels.

• Emily Winston [12:38]:
  “That would be bad for your business because the business is bagels. So if the bagels have to be subpar…”

Additionally, securing the necessary electrical upgrades from Pacific Gas and Electric (PG&E) is a protracted and cumbersome process, often taking over a year, which further complicates the transition.

• Emily Winston [13:54]:
  “It took over a year to get our electrical upgrade, which is not uncommon for PG&E.”

Broader Implications for Climate Policy

Emily offers critical insights into how climate policies must balance environmental goals with the practical realities faced by businesses. She emphasizes the need for sensitivity towards specialized equipment essential for certain industries.

• Emily Winston [17:09]:
  “I think you need to be sensitive to the fact that not everything that’s running on gas is a hot water heater.”

She advocates for phased approaches, such as initially targeting only easily replaceable appliances like hot water heaters, while allowing more time and support for industries that rely heavily on natural gas.

• Emily Winston [18:43]:
  “If you just said no new installation of gas hot water heaters, I think that would be a much more reasonable approach, especially for new construction.”

Emily warns against rapid electrification without adequate infrastructure, drawing parallels to the challenges faced with electric vehicle adoption due to insufficient charging networks.

• Emily Winston [20:46]:
  “These are the pitfalls, like, because if the state and if the utilities don’t address exactly what you’re talking about, there’s going to be such an intense backlash that it’s never going to happen.”

Recommendations for Policymakers and Businesses

Based on her experiences, Emily provides several recommendations to ensure that climate policies are effective yet considerate of business operations:

1. Gradual Implementation:
   Policies should allow for a gradual shift, giving businesses ample time to adapt.

2. Industry-Specific Provisions:
   Recognize the unique needs of different industries and provide tailored solutions.

3. Infrastructure Support:
   Invest in and expedite the expansion of renewable energy infrastructure to facilitate the transition.

4. Stakeholder Engagement:
   Engage with business owners and industry experts during the policy formulation process to anticipate challenges and develop practical strategies.

Future Outlook: Balancing Tradition with Sustainability

Looking ahead, Emily contemplates the possibility of eventually transitioning to electric equipment, especially as Boychik Bagels plans to expand into new markets like Los Angeles. However, she remains cautious, prioritizing the quality and authenticity of her product.

• Emily Winston [22:14]:
  “So, yeah, I’m putting that on the lengthy to-do list. This is the question of the future.”

Emily’s journey underscores the broader narrative of how traditional businesses can navigate the complex landscape of climate change mitigation while preserving their unique cultural and culinary identities.

Conclusion: Navigating the Path Forward

Sammy Roth and Emily Winston’s dialogue sheds light on the intricate balance between environmental sustainability and economic practicality. As climate policies become more stringent, the need for collaborative efforts between policymakers, businesses, and the community becomes increasingly vital to ensure a sustainable and equitable transition.

Notable Quotes

• Emily Winston [05:37]:
  “I was looking at about a $46,000 charge. But that is saying that we were not going to increase production...”

• Emily Winston [08:32]:
  “A proper New York water bagel has to be boiled before it’s baked.”

• Emily Winston [12:38]:
  “That would be bad for your business because the business is bagels.”

• Emily Winston [17:09]:
  “Not everything that’s running on gas is a hot water heater.”

• Emily Winston [20:46]:
  “There’s going to be such an intense backlash that it’s never going to happen.”

This episode of Boiling Point offers a nuanced perspective on the intersection of culinary tradition and climate action, highlighting the challenges and considerations essential for fostering a sustainable future without compromising on quality and cultural heritage.