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Cows, Carbon and Fixing Our Food - Boiling Point | Wave AI Podcast Notes

Cows, Carbon and Fixing Our Food

Thu Jul 17 2025

Sammy Roth talks with journalist Michael Grunwald about his new book, “We Are Eating the Earth,” which began as a story about food and became a story about land. They explore how agriculture — especially the way we raise livestock and grow crops — has become one of the biggest drivers of climate change. They also unpack realistic solutions, and think about what it means to love hamburgers and also want a livable planet. Order “We Are Eating the Earth” here: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/We-Are-Eating-the-Earth/Michael-Grunwald/9781982160074

Summary

Boiling Point: Cows, Carbon, and Fixing Our Food

Episode Release Date: July 17, 2025

In this compelling episode of Boiling Point, climate columnist Sami Roth engages in a deep conversation with environmental journalist Michael Grunwald about the intricate relationship between agriculture, land use, and climate change. The discussion delves into the profound impact of cattle farming on the environment, the challenges of transitioning to alternative protein sources, and the broader implications for land conservation and climate mitigation.

1. Introduction to the Food and Climate Crisis

Sami Roth opens the conversation by sharing his personal struggle with reducing beef consumption despite knowing its significant contribution to climate pollution. He emphasizes the necessity of addressing food and agriculture alongside fossil fuels to effectively combat global warming.

"We as a society are not going to slow down global warming unless we also deal with food and agriculture."
— Sami Roth [00:00]

2. Agriculture as a Land-Intensive Industry

The discussion shifts to the extensive land use required for agriculture, highlighting that two-thirds of the world's agricultural land is dedicated to pasture and livestock. Roth underscores the gravity of converting natural landscapes into agricultural ones, leading to deforestation and loss of carbon sinks.

"Agriculture is eating the earth... two of every five acres of land on this planet are now cropped or grazed."
— Sami Roth [07:57]

3. The Environmental Cost of Cattle Farming

Roth and Grunwald delve into the inefficiencies of cattle farming, pointing out that beef and lamb production utilize vast amounts of land for minimal caloric output. They discuss the disproportionate environmental footprint of livestock compared to plant-based proteins.

"Beef, cattle use nearly half of the world's ag land to produce just 3% of its calories."
— Michael Grunwald [10:13]

4. Water Consumption in Agriculture

Focusing on the Colorado River Basin, Roth reveals that almost half of the river's water is allocated to cattle feed, highlighting the strain livestock farming places on freshwater resources.

"Almost half of the water from the Colorado River goes to cattle feed."
— Sami Roth [11:46]

5. Alternative Proteins: Challenges and Prospects

The conversation explores the fluctuating fortunes of plant-based and cultivated meat startups. Roth shares insights from attending the Good Food Institute conferences, noting the initial exuberance followed by market downturns as consumer acceptance remains lukewarm.

"In 2019, the sense of excitement was sky-high... but by 2023, it was doom and gloom."
— Sami Roth [13:14]

6. Political Opposition to Alternative Meats

Roth discusses the political resistance faced by cultivated meat, citing Florida Governor Ron DeSantis' ban on such products and labeling them as "woke meat."

"Cultivated meat... it's illegal in my state because Ron DeSantis banned it."
— Sami Roth [17:09]

7. Regenerative vs. Industrial Agriculture

A critical examination of regenerative agriculture reveals that while it promotes environmentally friendly practices, it often yields less food per acre compared to industrial methods. Roth argues that increasing efficiency in large-scale agriculture is essential to reduce overall land use.

"Farming should produce as much food as possible to minimize land use."
— Sami Roth [24:04]

8. Genetically Modified Organisms (GMOs) and Yield Enhancement

Roth addresses misconceptions about GMOs, clarifying that while they are not detrimental to health, their role in significantly boosting crop yields is often overstated. He highlights advancements like CRISPR for developing more resilient crops as a promising avenue.

"Genetically modified organisms have been exaggerated as a yield magic... but gene editing offers incredible potential."
— Sami Roth [32:01]

9. Personal Commitment to Change

Towards the end of the episode, Roth shares his personal decision to reduce beef consumption, acknowledging the challenges but stressing the importance of individual actions in the broader climate context.

"Eating less beef is the best thing you can do for the climate... better is better than worse."
— Sami Roth [23:15]

10. Conclusion: A Multifaceted Approach to Climate Mitigation

The episode wraps up with Roth emphasizing that no single solution will address the climate crisis. Instead, a comprehensive strategy encompassing energy, agriculture, land use, and technological innovation is imperative.

"There's not one thing that's going to fix it. We need all of the above."
— Sami Roth [38:24]

This episode of Boiling Point offers a nuanced exploration of the intersection between agriculture and climate change, challenging listeners to reconsider conventional narratives and embrace a holistic approach to environmental stewardship.

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Transcript

Sami Roth (0:00)

This is an LA Times Studios podcast.

Michael Grunwald (0:07)

My name is Sami Roth and I'm the climate columnist for the Los Angeles Times. This is Boiling Point. I'm gonna start this week with a confession. Just like I still drive a car powered by Gasol. Also still eat hamburgers. Not as often as I used to. I've tried really hard to be conscious about eating less beef because I know that cows are a huge source of climate pollution. But truth be told, I love a good hamburger, and I haven't been able to get myself to stop eating them. I like a good Impossible burger, too. And when I'm at a restaurant with Impossible on the menu, I'll order the fake meat version almost every time. But most places don't have that option, and frankly, it's still not quite as good as the real thing. At least to my taste buds. As an energy reporter most of my career, I've mostly focused on fossil fuels in my reporting. Coal, oil, and gas, because collectively they're the main causes of the climate crisis. But we as a society are not going to slow down global warming unless we also deal with food and agriculture. So when I heard that one of my favorite environmental journalists, Michael Grunewald, was coming out with a book about the food problem, I was pretty psyched. Finally, I was going to be able to buckle down and learn what I needed to know about cow farts and soil carbon and all the things that I didn't know, I didn't know. Turns out there was a lot that I didn't know I didn't know. Perhaps most of all, I went into Michael's book thinking about food mostly as a food problem, as in cattle produce emissions. Fertilizer produces emissions, so we need to raise less cattle and use less fertilizer. But as I wrote down in a note to myself on the very first page of the book, this is a book about food, but actually a book about land. If that doesn't make sense yet, totally fine. Michael and I are going to talk about why it is that humans use so much land to plant crops and raise livestock, and why that is such a huge climate problem. We're also going to talk about some solutions that don't always comport with traditional environmental values. And before you start jumping to conclusions and calling anyone a hypocrite, just know that Michael did in fact stop eating beef as a result of writing this book. Unlike me, he's walking the walk. I don't want to spoil our conversation too much, so let's just get into it.

Jane Coston (2:48)

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Sami Roth (13:14)

Sure. Well, I mean, I guess the, you know, you Californians who are familiar with the Gardner hype cycle, that's sort of what fake meat has gone through. Right. They had their peak inflated expectations back in 2019. I went, actually started my reporting for this book at the Good Food Institute conference. And that's kind of the convening of all the different plant based and like you said, cultivated meat, which is made from animal cells and mycelium based meat made from fungi. Basically everybody who's trying to replace meat come to this conference. And it was just, the exuberance was off the charts. Beyond had just gone public. It was like worth a third as much as Tyson, heading towards $250 a share. There were serious conversations at this conference about whether it was going to take one decade or two to get rid of the meat industry. And then of course I went, as I was finishing my reporting, I went back to the Good Food institute conference in 2023 and it was doom and gloom because beyond had gone from $250 a share to $2 a share. Nobody was investing. Cultivated meat hadn't even made it to market. And there was a sen, a fad. You know, what's happening. You know, basically the dogs didn't like the food. And, and I thought that was a little excessive too. I mean it certainly this stuff is not doing very well in the marketplace right now. And I think in 2019, certainly with the plant based stuff, you know, particularly beyond, there was a sense of excitement because it was better than the kind of hockey puck veggie burgers that vegans were used to. And it was better than that, but it wasn't better than meat. So I think a lot of meat eaters tried it and didn't come back to it. And those companies have done pretty badly. That said, the cow is a pretty mature technology and this stuff is still getting better. That's the cool thing about humans. We're not so good at making sacrifices for the planet or being nice to each other. But we're really good at inventing stuff. And there are a lot of smart people working on trying to make this stuff tastier and cheaper and even healthier. And I still have a lot of confidence that they can succeed. And look, from an environmental perspective, this stuff is like 90% better than animal meat. So it's really important that they succeed because again, people really love meat. We eat 350 million tons of it a year. And I don't expect us to suddenly stop just because Michael Grunwald wrote a book saying that meat is doing bad things for the planet. So I think just like Tesla showed that if you kind of build a better mousetrap that people like and that is at least competitively priced, at least some people will buy it, I think that's sort of the hope for that. These alternative meats that they will make stuff that consumers embrace.

Sami Roth (24:04)

Yeah, sure. I mean, and yes, I know, like, we all read Michael Pollan and he's a beautiful writer. And so I think a lot of us have these kind of nostalgic, romantic ideas of what farming should look like. And also a lot of us have legitimate gripes with industrial agriculture, right, that it treats animals badly, treats people badly. Their politics mostly suck. Right. They're lobbying against environmental regulation and climate action. Use too many antibiotics. I get it. But as you suggested, one thing that factories do really well is manufacture a lot of affordable commodities. And factory farms are really good at manufacturing a lot of cheap food. And that really is important. I think there's a sense from, again, because we read Michael Pollan, there's this idea that farming is really supposed to be natural and kinder and gentler. Farming is really kind of, kind of good for the environment. But that's not really true. I mean, it is true that there is, you know, these rustic red barn bucolic farms. There is something lost when you transform them into more intensive, you know, industrial farms that are monoculture crops and they're drenched in chemicals. And, you know, the, the animals have numbers instead of names. And that there is, there's no doubt, like you look at the dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico, that's chemical fertilizer from industrial farm in the Mississippi Valley. There is a cost, but what I keep trying to bang my spoon on my high chair about is that the biggest environmental cost, the real tragedy was the transformation of the prairie and American forests into agriculture, into first place, into those nice Michael Pollen farms. That's when you lost all the carbon. That's when you lost all the biodiversity. And to the extent that these regenerative agroecological farms, organic farms, make, make less food per acre, that means they need more acres to make food. They're transforming more of the prairie, or these days more of the Brazilian Amazon or the Brazilian Serrado, a kind of woody, woody savannah that's, that's just as biodiverse and, and this is really disaster. Like we don't think of it so much in the United States because we can. We deforested our Amazon in the 19th century, right? Indiana was 85% forest. Now it's all corn and soybeans. But I think there's this idea that, like, we want our farms to look nicer and more like nature, but the reason we transform nature into farms in the first place is because farms make more food.

Michael Grunwald (35:48)

Alice Water, celebrity chef and well known writer. And I can't imagine, I mean, and for those of you who might be listening to this and thinking, you know, Sammy, what, what went wrong? We used to like, we liked all of your other stuff that you wrote. Why are you interviewing this guy who has these terrible opinions? I want to just mention a quote that you include in the book and the H.L. mencken quote, which I think was something that Tim Surchinger's father liked to quote. And it's a great line. It's for every complex human problem, there's a solution that's clear, simple and wrong. And it just encapsulates a lot to me. Climate change is so big and complicated and scary and so hard to wrap your head around that it's, and I found this in my reporting for a long time, just interacting with readers. It's so easy to try to make climate change something that you can deal with on an individual level by gravitating towards, you know, a silver bullet solution or towards, you know, to just siloing it into. Okay, here's how I can understand this through, you know, my one little narrow lens that makes it easier for me. And as someone who's mostly focused on energy, you know, it's, you know, some, for some people it's, it's, you know, nuclear power. For some people it's rooftop solar or, you know, for some people it's, you know, desalination is going to solve our water problems. And your book does a really good job of showing. Here's why. For agriculture and land use we need a wide range of solutions. We need sort of all of the above. There's not one thing that's going to fix it. And the same frustrations that you've probably gotten. Alice Waters was glaring at you and that I'm sure you'll get more of as you read this book. I get that when I write about large scale solar projects in the desert that chew up wildlife habitat or sometimes end up up Joshua trees getting torn down. I've written stories that say, hey, you have a line in your book about the importance of trade offs and why everything has trade offs and why we need to evaluate those. Honestly, when I write stories to that effect of, hey, we need a lot of large scale solar rooftop, can't do it alone. Realistically, there's going to be trade offs involved here. If we want to deal with the climate crisis, some people get it and other people just go ballistic. What are you talking about? Why would we do one bad thing to address another bad thing? Like it has to be perfect. Same thing with nuclear. I'll write stories that say, hey, nuclear is not a panacea, but it also has a role to play at least with existing nuclear plants that we've got and maybe with some of the new technologies. And there are some people that, that will just drive in insane. And so I imagine you must see some of that in your work.

Sami Roth (38:24)

Oh, absolutely. But I will say after that event in Berkeley, which again was an audience of sort of 200 Michael Pollan readers, so you can imagine that they were prepared to, you know, run me out of town on a rail. But actually it was like, it was really pleasant. And afterwards, Paul Newman's daughter Who runs. Who runs Newman's Own Organic. She came up to me and was like, we had a great conversation about. She'd said it had completely opened up her eyes. And the guy who was the president of Slow Food USA and runs a California group called Roots for Change, he. I shouldn't say this, but. But he did. Well, he said it on his podcast, too. He came up to me and he said, you kicked my guy's ass. And. And then. And then he had me on his podcast. We had a great conversation because I do think part of it is like, we do need to break down some of these silos. I saw it in energy, and now I didn't realize it was also true in food, where you have these kind of like, it's become almost a culture war, these ideological, you know, teams where it's like industrial. The industrial guys against the regenerative guys against the, you know, the vegan guys, and everybody's at each other's throats. Look, I do think, like energy, you know, and again, I was one of you, and I'm sure I will be again, Sammy. But the energy. Energy is complicated. But I do think that the, you know, this kind of carbohydrate problem is more complicated than the hydrocarbon problem. We know what to do about energy, basically. I mean, at some point we got to stop using fossil fuels. We got to electrify our global economy and run it on clean electricity. And we're starting to do it just not fast enough in the U.S. looks like we're about to backslide, but it's, at this point, it's kind of a political question. While the food stuff, you know, we don't even know what to do. Like, you know, we haven't even really grappled with this stuff, and things are still getting worse. So I kind of wrote this book to try to grapple, right? And to say, like, hey, these issues matter and we need to figure them out. That's why Tim Searchinger, you know, say whatever you want about him. He is a figure outer. That is like, what he does. He's a facts guy, a science guy, and that's why he was like a great character to have at the center. And he was also a guy who says things that people don't always like. And. And I have, as you suggest, I am now finding myself on the receiving end as well.

Sami Roth (41:39)

It's sort of everybody's first question is whether I'm vegan, and I'm too weak to go vegan. So it turns out that, you know, cutting out beef is about as good as going vegetarian because vegetarians eat, Eat a lot more dairy. Most. Most vegetarians. And, and dairy, as you suggested, is, is. Is even worse than, Than chicken or pork. You know, know, cattle are the problem. And, you know, it was hard. It's, you know, I, I love meat. I love beef. People said I wouldn't miss it. I miss it all the time. I do confess in the book that when I went to Brazil and wrote about those cattle ranches, I. I broke down and ate a couple of exquisite local steaks. And I have not, you know, I've not relapsed since. But I try not to be scoldy about this stuff. I'm. I'm putting out information. I think people, you know, we do vote on these issues three times a day. And I think people who care about food and care about the climate, you know, they should know that, you know, eating less beef is the best thing you can do for the climate. But it's also true that a lot of people aren't going to do that. So again, I tried to. My joke is always that, you know, it's sort of like organized religion. You find the level of hypocrisy that you're comfortable with. And this is what I've done on food. But look, I have solar panels, I have an electric vehicle, but I fly way too much. So we all have an impact on the climate and on the planet. I'm trying to reduce mine, but perfect usually isn't on the menu, but better is better than worse. And that really is an important theme of the book, I think, is that you hear a lot about. If we don't reduce emissions x amount by x date, game over for the climate. But there is no game over for the climate. The game goes on. And if we blow past 1.5 degrees Celsius of warming, which it looks like we're going to do, 1.6 would be better than 1.7, 1.65 would be better than 1.7, and all our emissions matter. So I really do try to repeat again and again like fewer would be better and better is better than worse.