Sami Roth (3:52)

Rabbi Rosen, thank you very much for being with us on the Boiling Point podcast.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (3:56)

It's great to be here.

Sami Roth (3:58)

So I'd love it if you could start maybe by telling everyone a little bit about how Dayenu got started. And maybe for listeners who don't speak Hebrew, which is probably almost everyone listening to this, what Dayenu means.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (4:12)

I have worked for the past nearly 30 years as a rabbi mobilizing the American Jewish community around issues of social and economic justice. During that time, a few things became clear to me. The first is that the climate crisis, as you know so well, is the existential issue of our time. And also at its core, it is a social, economic and racial justice issue. It's about the people who are bearing the brunt of the climate crisis and are most severely impacted. And the second thing that was becoming clear was that the American Jewish community was not showing up in all of its people in power around the climate crisis. There wasn't an organized effort at the scale that's needed or on a systemic level. At the same time, we know that more than 80% of American Jews are concerned about the climate crisis. That's actually a statistic from, like, several years ago. I imagine it's much higher now. But most people were not taking action on climate. And I think there are two reasons. I think people don't know what to do in the face of the climate crisis. And I think on emotional, psychological level, it's too hard to face what's at stake, to really take it in. And so we founded Dainu five years ago, really to address both of these reasons for an action and to build a movement of Jews across the generations that are coming together to take action on climate, and I should say coming together as Jews to take action on climate, but as part of a larger climate movement and doing everything we can to avert the worst of climate devastation and to create a more just, livable and sustainable world for all people for generations to come. So that's a little bit about why we started. Dainu. Dainu. To your point about Hebrew, Dayinu refers to a song that we sing at the Passover Seder. Usually it's understood as it would have been enough. So it's a joyous song we sing and we go through. If God had taken us out of Israel, but not given us the Torah, Dayenu, it would have been enough. But Dayenu also means we've had enough. We've had enough climate destruction. We've had enough valuing the fossil fuel companies over human life. We've had enough letting the impacts of the climate crisis fall disproportionately on black, brown, and indigenous, poor, marginalized people. Dayenu. Enough.

Sami Roth (7:01)

So you founded Dayenu five years ago. So that was right before the pandemic.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (7:06)

Yeah, well, actually, we launched about two weeks into the pandemic, April 2020.

Sami Roth (7:11)

What timing.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (7:12)

What timing? Yes.

Sami Roth (7:15)

How did that affect. I'm so curious now. How did that affect things?

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (7:20)

Well, so we were far enough along in the process of launching and our strategy and everything that we didn't wait for the pandemic to be over. That was back when we thought we were talking about a few weeks. And I'm so glad that we didn't wait for the pandemic to be over. And what it meant was that we actually launched around a just green recovery. What then became Build Back Better, and ultimately the Inflation Reduction Act. It also, I think, meant that we actually were able to grow fairly quickly through a lot of online organizing, a lot of online speaking, a lot of online mobilization, and people's attention was very focused, you know, in those early days on zoom rooms and webinars. And so it was a really different kind of early organizing. And then over time, we, you know, unlike most organizations where they started in person and had to migrate to being online, for us, it was the flip. Everything started online, and then we've now evolved to much more of a hybrid organizing model that is both online and very much in person.

Sami Roth (8:32)

We had a little bit of a similar experience at the LA Times with Boiling Point, the newsletter that this podcast has now grown out of. We were preparing to launch it in late 2019, early 2020, and then the pandemic happened, and we ended up sending the first editions in. Gosh, I think it was either April or May of 2020. And I was a little bit terrified, like, oh, God, this is the worst possible timing. But it kind of turned out that people were, I think, paying Attention in a way that they might not have been otherwise. Like everyone was sitting with nothing to do. And you were sort of able to capture people's. At least this was my experience. Able to capture people's imaginations in a way you might not have been otherwise.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (9:07)

Very much so, yeah.

Sami Roth (9:10)

So you had those few years under Joe Biden. There were the great victories for climate Build Back Better turning into the Inflation Reduction Act. There was the bipartisan infrastructure law. Now we've got Trump. That's the first thing that comes to mind when anyone is, I think, thinking about climate and climate action. A bunch of questions I want to ask you about what your response to that has been as Dayenu. But I think the first one has been, and this has, I'm sure been pretty personal for you. There's the first Jewish head of the EPA right now, Lee Zeldin. He actually has several rabbis in his family. One of his great uncles was Isaiah Zeldin, who turns out the rabbi at the synagogue that I grew up at in Los Angeles. He founded Stephen Weiss Temple where I grew up. I'm curious what, what that's meant for you personally and how you've responded to that at Dayenu.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (9:59)

So it actually is very significant that he is the first Jewish head of the EPA and that he has been acting in such a reckless way. It's also interesting he has a lot of sort of heightened religious rhetoric, even beyond kind of Jewish rhetoric I'm thinking about. You might recall he had this quote about driving a dagger through the heart of climate change religion.

Sami Roth (10:27)

I saw that. That's when I heard that was striking, to say the least.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (10:30)

It just made my stomach turn. Like he managed somehow to denigrate religion and science and the desperately needed life saving efforts to address the climate crisis. Like all in one fell swoop.

Sami Roth (10:42)

You put out a statement at the time, Dainu, that said he needed a refresher on Jewish values. I just wanted to put that out there.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (10:48)

Yes, he did need a refresher on Jewish values because what he is doing is so in conflict with Jewish values like Pikuach Nefesh, the Jewish commandment to save a life, or Tir Dov Tzedek to pursue justice or even just becharta bechayim to choose life, our ability to live the Dor vahdor from generation to generation, such foundational Jewish values. And even more pointedly like he keeps referencing Jewish values and practice while he's tearing down the foundations of our nation's climate protections. I don't know if you remember he had this big public mezuzah hanging ceremony at the office of the epa. So here he is hanging in his office doorway a passage from the Torah about the foundational Jewish value of oneness and about keeping Jewish precepts front and center and that we should pass them on to our children and sanctifying the space with a mezuzah, all while he's taking a sledgehammer to the very things that protect human health and our environment. So you know, as a climate movement and a Jewish climate movement, we feel a particular responsibility to call out the way that what he's doing is completely antithetical to Jewish values. And so we've gone on record, I've gone on record with the New York Times, really pointing out the ways in which he is desecrating religious values a few months ago. I'll just add to that. Since he assumed the helm of the epa, he has been dismantling decades worth of environmental protections. Now as we know, he's trying to repeal the endangerment finding. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that the administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency, Lee Zeldin, is waging a full on war against the climate.

Sami Roth (12:51)

And just for the record, the endangerment finding is the sort of foundational policy that says the EPA has the ability to regulate greenhouse gases, that they're a danger to human health and the environment. This gives the EPA the authority to fight climate change basically. And they're now trying to undo that completely.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (13:06)

And I would say this is like tossing out the Ten Commandments. And I'm not even being hyperbolic. Like by trying to eliminate the endangerment finding, he's trying to destroy the legal framework that our country has, as you said, to drive a coherent climate policy. So it's stripping away our government's ability to regulate, as you said, the emissions that are heating our planet. So all this goes without saying that it's going to result in more pollution, more illness, more premature deaths and even faster accelerating climate disasters. So as soon as the threat of this repeal became known, we started organizing, we at Dayenu started organizing the Jewish community to write to Lee Zeldin articulating all of the Jewish values that this flies in the face of. And now that the threat of the repeal is official and the public comments period is open, we're organizing Jews across the country to join what I hope will be tens of thousands of others to submit comments calling on Lee Zeldin and the EPA to protect the very framework that enables our government to avert the worst of climate devastation.

Sami Roth (14:21)

I mean, not to be too pessimistic, but to add a little bit of realism here. I mean, I hate to say I don't think that Lee Zeldin or the other folks in the Trump administration are probably going to be too moved by this. They seem to be pretty dead set in their agenda. It's not based on science or logic. But I'm really curious that the ability that you have as a rabbi and the other rabbis you work with and as a Jewish group explicitly to use language like that to put out statements and to say based on your religious values and your spirituality, that tossing out the endangerment finding is like throwing out the Ten Commandments, which is a statement that you put out publicly as well. I guess I'm just curious what kind of response you get coming explicitly from a Jewish and a more spiritual perspective, which really makes Diana un unique.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (15:09)

Yeah. So thank you for saying that. I think there's no question we're under no illusion that lifting up for Lee Zelda and the fact that this flies in the face of Jewish values is going to. He's not going to look up one day and say, oh, I didn't realize, sorry, just kidding. Clearly he has an agenda tied very much to the fossil fuel industry and to other politicians who do their bidding. I think that there is still tremendous value both in terms of articulating a moral call and lifting up the values and not letting him claim Jewish values while he's doing these things. That in itself feels critically important. So much of this is also about narrative and culture and what the kind of collective understanding of our nation is. So the use of public voice is incredibly important, like woe unto us if we stop, you know, and become quiet in the face of what is happening to our country. So that's on the kind of moral voice. And then there is how do we have impact right now and those windows are limited and how do we build a movement for the long haul? And so I think the. The work of building a Jewish or faith based in other traditions climate movement is very much about building a spiritually rooted movement that can draw from our tradition, our history, our lived experience, our spirit, our music, all of the things that help to ground us in this time, ground us in terms of comfort and support and ground us in terms of values and morals. And what is the vision that we have for the world that we want to create? And how do we gain strength from our ancestors, from our lived history, from our tradition that enable us in the face of all of this, to continue to fight and to envision what that world is that we are holding onto and seeking to create.

Sami Roth (17:28)

We'll be back after a quick break.

Hidden Cost of Oil Campaign Representative (17:39)

Did you know that there's a hidden lake of oil beneath Los Angeles? In some places, it's more than 16ft thick. Decades of toxic waste dumped by oil companies like Phillips 66 have left a legacy of contamination under neighborhoods like Wilmington and Carson. Now, as Phillips 66 shut down their refinery, they won't say how much cleanup will cost. And under California law, they don't have to. That's right. Big Oil can walk away without ever telling the public what it'll cost to clean up their mess. Communities deserve better. Taxpayers should not be left holding the bag. Tell your legislators oil companies must disclose the cost of cleanup when they shut down refineries. No more secrets. No more toxic time bombs. Visit hiddencostofoil.com to take action. Now that's hiddencostofoil.com let's make sure Big Oil cleans up after itself for good. Head hiddencostofoil.com to contact your legislators.

Sami Roth (18:40)

During one of the most severe windstorms Southern California experienced in more than a decade, the Palisades and Eaton fires ignited, leaving heartbreaking losses in our communities. Now, as we build back, we're building stronger, cleaner and more resilient in communities most vulnerable to dangerous weather conditions and wildfires. Southern California Edison is placing power lines underground, hardening the electric system by installing wires with protective coating, and adding advanced technology to help keep communities safe. So when Southern California faces the next storm, the next most severe event, we'll be ready. Learn more@sce.com disasterrecovery one of the sort of, I guess one of the questions I hear most frequently from people who read my articles and from people who are just engaged in climate change generally is like sort of, how do you stay sane? What can I be doing? I'm so enmeshed in climate change all the time. There's so much bad news, both in terms of just how the world is changing as things heat up and in terms of what's happening at a policy level with the Trump administration. There are a lot of folks who just have trouble even staying engaged with it because a lot of it's just really depressing. So I guess I'm curious, you know, for you personally, what your strategies look like and specifically how, if at all, you're able to draw on your Judaism, your faith, your spirituality to find ways to keep going. So I'm wondering if you can talk about that at a personal level a little bit, because I know there are a lot of folks who are really searching for those answers. And maybe if you could also speak to what Dayana was doing, because I think that you guys have some spiritual resources that you offer as well, in addition to the, you know, the movement building that you do.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (20:43)

Thanks, Sami. So, yes, it's such an important question, Sami. It really is. I think there's such a. It's so incredibly painful to face what is at stake and what our world could become and is becoming. And so resourcing people, I would say spiritually, emotionally, psychologically, has been a core part of Dayinu's work really from the beginning, and the need for it has only grown in recent years. And I think, as we've all seen even more acutely since the election. And it's interesting, I think there's an increased recognition of the need to spiritually resource people in communities in confronting the climate crisis. You know, this is something that when we started Dainu and this was part of our work, people would sometimes say, like, I understand the political mobilization, but like, what's this spiritual hoo hoo thing you're talking about? People don't ask that anymore. And I think it's because there is the idea of climate, climate, anxiety, climate grief. It's so much more in the zeitgeist. So I think that people absolutely need spaces in which we can confront the really hard feelings that climate crisis brings up. I think for many of us, and I'll certainly speak for myself, it's sadness, it's anxiety, it's a sense of profound loss, it's fear of what this means for my children and my great grandchildren and generations to come. I think for many younger folks, there's anger. And I think for some of the older folks that we work with, we work with people of all ages, and we see some differences. I think for younger folks, there's often anger, and I think for some of the older folks, there's guilt and a sense of either not having done enough for the world that they're leaving behind. And so part of it is as simple as making space for these feelings, because I think often we sort of. The image I have is like, we throw ourselves against the closet door and we're like, don't think about it. Don't kind of COVID our eyes. So one of the kinds of resources that we offer is that we've created a workshop to give people space to confront a lot of those feelings grounded in Jewish tradition and music. We also develop and share what we call climate Torah and new Jewish climate, music and ritual, Jewish spiritual resources that sustain us in the work and that root us in Jewish wisdom and community. And so we think a lot about what is it that people need to be able to confront what is happening, to grapple with what's happening, to gain a sense of their own agency as opposed to falling into sort of the pit of despair.

Sami Roth (23:36)

I've got to think there are other faith groups outside of Judaism that are doing these same things, right? I mean, absolutely, yeah. So on a practical level, in terms of policy and in terms of what can be done at a political level, we sort of talked about how it's important to keep taking a moral stand and build a national movement against what the Trump administration is pursuing, but probably not going to change their policies right now. I'm hoping you can talk about what you guys are doing at a state level. You have a bunch of state level campaigns, including in California, where it's still possible to make progress. Where are you guys focused? I mean, definitely want to hear about California, but what are some of your top priorities at the state level?

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (24:19)

Right now it's clear that, as you said, there's limited possibility on the federal level, but accelerating the transition away from fossil fuels and ramping up renewable energy and ensuring that it reaches the communities that are most impacted, all of this has to happen on the state level. It's actually more important now given the federal state of things that had happened on the state level. And it is theoretically still possible. So both New York and California to start there, they both have fairly advanced climate commitments. But this is a big but it is not going to happen without considerable pressure and people power. We're already seeing Governors Hochul and Newsom pull back on their commitments, in part related to all sorts of their own political aspirations, in part related to bullying from Trump. So in New York, we're working on cap, trade and invest. In California, it is to pass the climate Superfund bill to make polluters pay, which will also be the campaign in Massachusetts.

Sami Roth (25:33)

I think one thing I find really interesting about that overall strategy, and I want to talk about make polluters pay specifically, but I mean, the focus on, I mean, blue states that are known for doing a lot on climate. I mean, you talk about California, New York, Massachusetts, Illinois, but that arguably, and I think correctly, aren't doing enough. I mean, is the idea there that those are places where, just like, realistically it's possible to make more progress? Is it because these are states where there are a lot of Jewish folks who are motivated and care about climate. Is it some other reason? I mean, why the focus on these places rather than, rather than other states that maybe haven't progressed as much on climate to begin with?

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (26:15)

Great question. I think the focus on those states are a fewfold. One is that that is where more of our base is more of our Dainu circle, grassroots activists. And so I think part of the something we think about all the time is where is Dainu's added value? How do we bring what we have to bring to the larger climate movement? And so Dainu's power is much more in states where our base is, which are, not surprisingly, where more Jews live, which is in those states. Secondly, I think what happens in those states actually has national bearing. What happens in New York and California matters nationally. They also are among in some cases, certainly in the case of California, you know, higher emitting states. So if we're able to actually make some serious inroads there, it has an outsized impact. And finally, yes, they are states that have forward looking commitments, but it is not by any means a foregone conclusion that they're going to deliver on those commitments. So I think sometimes people think, you know, those states are set. You know, it's the, it's the these other states that, you know, we need to be paying attention to. Of course, those also need to be paid attention to. But it is not as though New York and California and Massachusetts and Illinois are just kind of going to go forth with their most ambitious climate commitments without considerable organizing and people power.

Sami Roth (27:48)

Another big action that you've been building towards that. I think you guys are a part of a larger network here, Sunday 2025. And I think this is the first time we're bringing this up on the podcast. But Bill McKibben, former Boiling Point guest and that's clearly what he's most known for, is having been on this podcast once.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (28:05)

No, he's most known for being on Dainu's advisory board.

Sami Roth (28:08)

Ah, there you go. There you go. Much better. This is an initiative that he's been involved with spearheading this national day of action and events surrounding the power of solar. Solar energy. That's coming up, I believe. September 21st. Am I getting the date right? I think I'm right. Can you talk a little bit about why you guys are involved with Sunday and just sort of the importance of that event or at least how you see it?

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (28:34)

Yeah. What is so frustrating right now is, as I was saying at the beginning, about why we call Dayenu Dainu. It is possible we have started to turn the corner on renewable energy. We have figured out how to harness the power of sun and wind in ways that are so much better than fossil fuels. It is cheaper to manufacture, install and connect solar panels than it is to restart a coal mine or build a new gas pipeline. Even aside from the externalities like pollution and climate disasters, look, the demand for power is not going down, it is increasing. Committing to unleashing fossil fuels to expand our energy source is, I don't even know what word to use. Ludicrous. It's dirty, it's dangerous, it's expensive. We know that it is killing us. So Sunday is about saying as loudly as possible, we have abundant sun and wind and water and we have the technology, but what we need is the will and the commitment to make it happen at scale, at a scale. And that is so urgently needed. I'm going to say that again, like we, what we need is the will and commitment to make it happen at the scale that is so urgently needed and to ensure that it reaches all peoples and all communities. So part of, I think what a community of faith can bring to this movement is the vision like, we need the power to see this possibility and this world and to understand the reality that we can build a different society and a different energy system. So we're excited to join scores of organizations, gather with what we hope will be hundreds of thousands of people across the country to celebrate this possibility. Because only if we build and act with our collective power is this going to be possible.

Sami Roth (30:43)

Well, I don't know if you would go this far, but one thing that occurs to me, the idea that we have all of the things that we need. You talked also about the sort of strange religious rhetoric that has come out of the EPA and the Trump administration. One phrase that I've heard got, at least in proclamations President Trump use at times is referring to coal and oil and gas as good as God given resources that we should be taking full advantage of. But I mean, I imagine you could, and I don't know if you would, but I imagine you could say the same thing about solar power and wind power and try to put a positive twist on that expression. Yeah, and as you said, they're cheaper and cleaner and much God given, but in a much more positive way.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (31:25)

Bill often says, I'm not going to quote him quite right, but he says we need the power from the heavens, not from, from hell. You know, if sun is coming from above and the dirty, dirty energy is coming from below.

Sami Roth (31:41)

Quoting Bill McKibben is never a bad idea to end. On that note, Rabbi Rosen, thank you very much for being with us on the Boiling Point podcast.

Rabbi Jenny Rosen (31:50)

Pleasure to be here.

Sami Roth (31:57)

If you're interested to learn more about Dayenu's fossil fuel divestment work work, check out the show notes for a link to my column. And while you're at it, we'd really love it if you could rate and review Boiling Points on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen to the show. Thank you as always for being with us. Thank you for listening to Boiling Point. I'm your host Sammy Roth. My producers are Mary Knoff and Jonathan Shiflett. Sound design and original music by Jonathan Shiflett. Elijah Wolfson is our editor. Denise Callahan is our studio manager. Ben Church is our Production Manager. Nick Norton is our engineer. Special thanks to LA Times Studio President Anna Magzanian, President and Chief Operating Officer of the Los Angeles Times, Chris Argentieri and Executive Editor of the Los Angeles Times, Terry Tang. Boiling Point is executive produced by Darius Derekshon and created by me, Sami Roth.

Hidden Cost of Oil Campaign Representative (33:11)

Did you know that there's a hidden lake of oil beneath Los Angeles? In some places, it's more than 16ft thick. Decades of toxic waste dumped by oil companies like Phillips 66 have left a legacy of contamination under neighborhoods like Wilmington and Carson. Now, as Phillips 66 shut down their refinery, they won't say how much cleanup will cost. And under California law, they don't have to. That's right. Big Oil can walk away without ever telling the public what it'll cost to clean up their mess. Communities deserve better. Taxpayers should not be left holding the bag. Tell your legislators oil companies must disclose the cost of cleanup when they shut down refineries. No more secrets. No more toxic time bombs. Visit hiddencostofoil.com to take action. Now. That's hiddencostofoil.com let's make sure big Oil cleans up after itself for good. Head hiddencostoil.com to contact your legislators California.

California Environmental Voters Representative (34:12)

Ratepayers face some of the nation's highest electricity costs with the decades old solar policy at the center of debate. Net energy metering was introduced in the 1990s to boost rooftop solar by letting homeowners sell excess power back to the grid at full retail rates. But now the California Public Advocate's Office reports that households without solar are subsidizing those with rooftop systems through higher electricity rates. The Fix the Cost Shift Coalition points out that this shift has led to equity concerns. Solar adoption concentrates among higher income homeowners while costs burden renters and lower income families. Assembly Member Lisa Calderon authored legislation to address the cost shift while maintaining solar incentives at 76 to 82% of current levels. Support Assemblymember Calderon and help fix California's electricity crisis. Learn more@fixthecostshift.org that's fixthecostshift.org.