Reporting the Truth About Water in California

Summary

Boiling Point: Reporting the Truth About Water in California
Hosted by Sammy Roth, LA Times Studios
Release Date: March 6, 2025

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Introduction

In the March 6, 2025 episode of "Boiling Point," host Sammy Roth delves into the intricate and contentious issue of water management in California, particularly in the wake of devastating wildfires. Joined by esteemed water reporter Ian James, the discussion unpacks the challenges California faces in balancing water distribution between urban areas and agriculture, the political maneuvers influencing water policies, and the overarching impact of climate change on the state’s water systems.

Hosts' Background and Collaboration

Sammy Roth introduces Ian James, highlighting their longstanding professional relationship and James's exemplary reporting on water-related issues in California. Reflecting on their early days at the Desert Sun newspaper in Palm Springs, Sammy commends Ian's expertise and dedication:

Sammy Roth [00:28]: "Just listening to Ian interview scientists on the phone and getting to go out in the desert with him to report stories together, it was the best journalism education that I could have asked for."

This mutual respect sets the stage for a deep and insightful conversation about California’s water crisis.

President Trump's Misrepresentation of Water Management

A significant portion of the episode addresses President Trump’s controversial claims during the Southern California wildfires. Trump alleged that the military had "entered California and turned on the water" to combat the fires, suggesting a solution that didn’t align with reality. Sammy scrutinizes these claims through Ian’s investigative reporting:

Ian James [02:11]: "The water never made it to LA. The water never got anywhere close. The whole thing was just a publicity stunt."

This assertion was further examined during a congressional oversight hearing where Congressman Mike Levin challenged the Army Corps of Engineers’ Lieutenant General about the water releases. The exchange revealed the disconnection between Trump’s statements and the actual effectiveness of the water management efforts:

Lieutenant General [02:33]: "I don't know what happens to the water once we release it from the dams... It was released and lost in a dry lake bed."

Sammy emphasizes the critical role of journalism in uncovering these truths:

Ian James [03:07]: "This is why journalism matters. This is why facts matter."

California's Water Infrastructure: Central Valley Project vs. State Water Project

Sammy and Ian delve into the complexities of California’s dual water systems: the federally operated Central Valley Project and the state-managed State Water Project. These "superhighways of water" transport water from Northern California's delta to the arid Central and Southern regions. However, this system has been a source of perpetual conflict:

Sammy Roth [14:03]: "They've been a source of perpetual conflict because agriculture and cities depend on this water... tensions between farmers, agricultural irrigation districts, and environmental groups."

The episode highlights the contentious balance between fulfilling agricultural needs and protecting endangered species, particularly the Delta smelt, which has become a political focal point:

Sammy Roth [15:26]: "The Delta smelt has become a real political punching bag in all of this."

Impact of Political Decisions on Water Management

The conversation shifts to the implications of the Trump administration's approach to water management. Despite President Trump’s promises to maximize water delivery, the actual outcomes fell short of expectations. For instance, additional water released from federally operated dams in the San Joaquin Valley did not benefit Los Angeles but instead percolated into agricultural groundwater:

Sammy Roth [10:42]: "That water did not make its way to urban Southern California. It ran down into the farming areas of the San Joaquin Valley."

This mismanagement not only failed to address the immediate wildfire crisis but also strained relationships with local farmers who had relied on these water resources.

Federal and State Collaboration Challenges

The episode explores the strained relationship between federal and state water managers under the Trump administration. While both entities have overlapping interests, such as the construction of new reservoirs and raising existing dams, coordination has faltered:

Sammy Roth [21:23]: "The state and the federal government certainly might find some areas to collaborate on... But that does not seem to be the way things are going."

The uncertainty surrounding federal commitments raises concerns about the reliability of future water management policies and the potential for increased litigation and conflict.

Parallels with the Colorado River Management

Sammy draws parallels between California’s water issues and the broader challenges faced in managing the Colorado River, another critical water source for millions in the western United States. Both systems suffer from over-extraction and reduced water levels due to prolonged droughts and climate change:

Sammy Roth [24:33]: "The Colorado River is not in good shape... the states have been struggling to hash out how can they deal with just a river that's not delivering anywhere near what it used to."

The discussion underscores the necessity of federal involvement in orchestrating cooperative agreements among the seven states that rely on the Colorado River.

Wildfires, Water System Limitations, and Climate Change

A focal point of the episode is the relationship between California’s aging water infrastructure, the increasing frequency and intensity of wildfires, and the exacerbating effects of climate change. Sammy and Ian discuss how insufficient water pressure and storage capacity hinder effective firefighting efforts:

Sammy Roth [27:32]: "The water system is simply not built to withstand, to put it out."

Climate change intensifies this issue by creating drier conditions and higher temperatures, contributing to more severe wildfires. A UCLA study cited in the podcast attributes the heightened fire intensity to both natural weather variations and anthropogenic climate factors:

Sammy Roth [29:34]: "Higher temperatures driven by climate change... increased the intensity, basically made the fires that much more destructive and that much bigger."

Future Directions and Solutions

Looking ahead, Sammy and Ian explore potential strategies for improving California’s resilience against wildfires and managing water resources more effectively. Discussions include:

• Enhancing Local Water Storage: Increasing local reservoirs and improving hydrant systems to provide better support during fire emergencies.

• Infrastructure Upgrades: Modernizing water delivery systems to handle extreme conditions brought about by climate change.

• Collaborative Management: Fostering better cooperation between state and federal agencies to ensure coherent water management policies.

Sammy concludes with a call to prioritize science-based decision-making over political rhetoric:

Sammy Roth [32:21]: "We can do better both in terms of fire and water, if we as a society are listening to the scientists and the science and looking at how we can adapt."

Closing Remarks

The episode wraps up with a poignant reminder of the ongoing struggles with water management in California, emphasizing the critical need for informed journalism and transparent governance. Ian James leaves listeners with a crucial update on the state of California’s snowpack, underscoring the subtle yet significant impacts of climate change:

Ian James [33:20]: "Snowpack in the Sierra Nevada was at 85% of average for this time of year... if not for climate change, there's a chance it might be even better."

Sammy thanks Ian for his invaluable contributions and reiterates the importance of understanding the true dynamics of California’s water issues beyond political misrepresentations.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sammy Roth [00:28]: "Just listening to Ian interview scientists on the phone and getting to go out in the desert with him to report stories together, it was the best journalism education that I could have asked for."

• Ian James [02:11]: "The water never made it to LA. The water never got anywhere close. The whole thing was just a publicity stunt."

• Sammy Roth [15:26]: "The Delta smelt has become a real political punching bag in all of this."

• Sammy Roth [29:34]: "Higher temperatures driven by climate change... increased the intensity, basically made the fires that much more destructive and that much bigger."

• Sammy Roth [32:21]: "We can do better both in terms of fire and water, if we as a society are listening to the scientists and the science and looking at how we can adapt."

• Ian James [33:20]: "Snowpack in the Sierra Nevada was at 85% of average for this time of year... if not for climate change, there's a chance it might be even better."

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This comprehensive episode of "Boiling Point" sheds light on the multifaceted water crisis in California, highlighting the interplay between political actions, environmental stewardship, and the urgent need for sustainable solutions in the face of escalating climate change impacts.

Transcript

[Sammy Roth]

This is an LA Times Studios podcast.

[Ian James]

My name is Sami Roth and I'm the climate columnist for the Los Angeles Times.

[Host]

This is Boiling Point. When I started my first journalism job out of college, I found myself sitting.

[Ian James]

Next to a veteran reporter named Ian James. I was the energy reporter at the Desert sun newspaper in Palm Springs, California, and Ian was the water reporter. I figured out pretty quickly how lucky I was to have Ian as a colleague. His stories about drought farming, climate change, the Salton Sea, Joshua Tree national park, they were the best in the business. Just listening to Ian interview scientists on the phone and getting to go out in the desert with him to report stories together, it was the best journalism education that I could have asked for. Today, Ian and I work together at the LA Times. He's still covering water and climate change, and I'm still one of his biggest fans. There's a chance you've read some of.

[Host]

His work over the last few weeks.

[Ian James]

Because Ian has been doing some of the most important reporting in the country. Remember when President Trump claimed the military had entered California to turn on the water, supposedly to help fight the fires in Los Angeles? It was Ian, more than anyone, who did the reporting that revealed the truth beneath Trump's lies. Ian was also one of the reporters who explained the connection between climate change and the wildfires. And it was Ian who helped figure out what was really going on with those hydrants running out of water as firefighters battled the flames. Ian also pointed me toward an interesting exchange. At a congressional oversight hearing last month in Washington, D.C. congressman Mike Levin of Southern California was grilling a lieutenant general from the Army Corps of Engineers about why the military had dumped a bunch of water from two dams in California's San Joaquin Valley. The Army Corps had claimed that it was acting on Trump's orders to make.

[Host]

Sure there was enough water in Los.

[Ian James]

Angeles to fight the fires. But as Ian and other journalists reported, the water never made it to la. The water never got anywhere close. The whole thing was just a publicity stunt. The exchange at the oversight hearing between Congressman Levin and the Lieutenant General was extremely uncomfortable.

[Host]

Is it true that the 2 billion gallons of water never reached LA? I don't know what happens to the water once we release it from the dams. They evaporated in a dry lake bed in Lake Tulare from all public accounts. Is that not consistent with what you understand, sir? I don't know what happened to the water once it released the dams. You'll have to take my word for it. It was released and lost in a dry lake bed. Even though that water was supposed to be saved for some irrigation. That's been widely commented on by scientists, farmers and the rest.

[Ian James]

This is why journalism matters. This is why facts matter. Congressman Levin might not have known what really happened if not for reporters like Ian. Anyone can get angry and spout off on social media, but we need quality information to make good decisions and ultimately to stay alive. As you've probably gathered by now, our guest this week is Ian James. If you want to know how water actually works in California, then you want to hear from Ian.

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[Host]

Ian James, thank you very much for being with us on the Boiling Point podcast.

[Sammy Roth]

Good to be here, Sammy.

[Host]

So I was just doing a count and I think in the month after the Palisades and the Eaton fires broke out that you did 20 different stories on the fires and the water situation after the fires and President Trump's tweets and claims. You've been pretty busy, huh?

[Sammy Roth]

That might be. I guess I lost track, but I don't doubt it.

[Host]

Well, I counted for you and that's the number. And I'm a journalist, so believe me, you did, you know, you've been covering water for a long time and I just, you know, I've read so much of your work having to do with the way water is moved around in California and the endangered fish in the delta, which we'll talk about, and the things that Trump has been saying for a long time. I just, like, like many people, I was so startled a couple of weeks after these fires ignited when he wrote, and I'm just going to read straight here from what he, he wrote on social media when he said the United States military, this was in late January, he wrote, the United States military just entered the great state of California and under emergency powers turned on the water Flowing abundantly from the Pacific Northwest and beyond. The days of putting a fake environmental argument over the people are over. Enjoy the water California. Was any of that true?

[Sammy Roth]

I think he's trying to turn on the water, but the water does not come from the Pacific Northwest. There was no contact with the state about this, which operates a lot of the water infrastructure. And the people that we heard from in the state government said it was not accurate to say that the military had entered California.

[Host]

So there was no invasion. The military did not invade California, as.

[Sammy Roth]

Far as we know. No.

[Host]

I think we would know what actually happened. Talk us through it, because you did a bunch of stories on this. You went. And you actually went minute by maybe, day by day here. What actually occurred with the federal government that he was vaguely alluding to with this post?

[Sammy Roth]

Well, during the devastating fires in Southern California, President Trump made a big deal of water, and he tried to tie the two together and said that the reason these fires was so devastating was that there wasn't enough water, which there were problems with water, but they were more local problems, that firefighters struggled with fire hydrants going dry or not having pressure. And this wasn't related to a lack of water in Southern California, but just to the fact that the local water systems were pushed to their limits. They have limitations. They aren't designed to fight such intense major wildfires. So there was a lot of discussion about what types of water limitations there are in the state. And President Trump was suggesting we can just bring more water from the northern part of the state to the southern. And that would have prevented these fires or helped make them not so. Not so severe. None of which was accurate. The water supply agencies in Southern California actually have a record amount of water in storage. It's just that these fires were very intense, and those local water systems were not designed for these types of mega fires.

[Host]

Right. So a couple of things I want to unpack there. So when. So let's start with the Trump part of this. I mean, so when he said that we turned on the. Or he turned on the water. The military turned on the water. So, one, you said it didn't come from the Pacific Northwest because that's not where Southern California gets its water from. Was there any water that was actually turned on somewhere? I mean, I recall from your reporting that there was some additional water that was released in a different part of the state, but that it didn't really have anything to do with the Los Angeles wildfires. What actually happened? What did that look like?

[Sammy Roth]

Well, in the days afterward, there was no significant increase in pumping from the federal government's pumping plant in the delta.

[Host]

The delta that's up in Northern California, near the Bay Area, for those who aren't familiar.

[Sammy Roth]

Right. And so the federal government operates one of two major water systems in the Central Valley, which is the Central Valley Project. And we looked in the days following President Trump's executive order and statement as to how much was being pumped. Now, there was a bit of a downturn in pumping because of some maintenance work that was being done on that federal project, and then it did ramp up around that time, but it was basically just at normal levels. And so there was no massive increase in water exports as the President had described. Now, something different did happen on the eastern side of the San Joaquin Valley with some federally operated dams.

[Host]

So talk about that. What did happen at those two dams in the eastern side of the San Joaquin Valley?

[Sammy Roth]

There are two dams there that are operated by the Army Corps of Engineers. One is Terminus Dam near Visalia, and the other one is Schaefer Dam near Porterville. And these are dams that are primarily for flood control and also for storing water for agriculture in those areas. And something very extraordinary did happen, which was that suddenly the Army Corps of Engineers made a decision to release large quantities of water. And local water management agencies, people who work for these local water suppliers, scrambled over a period of a couple of days as they heard about these major releases of water to prepare for them and to do something with the water.

[Host]

Yeah, and I mean, one, as I recall from your stories, that water didn't go to Los Angeles. It just kind of ran down these. These river channels and. And just percolated into the ground. Right?

[Sammy Roth]

That's exactly right. That water did not make its way to urban Southern California. It ran down into the farming areas of the San Joaquin Valley, where, as we were told, it primarily went to groundwater replenishment areas and soaked into the ground and. And down to the groundwater. And this was water that was being stored in these dams. They weren't at high levels. They were actually at relatively low levels because it's been pretty dry in the southern Sierra Nevada. And so it let out some of the water that farmers are depending on for this summer during their growing season.

[Host]

So this wasn't water that anyone was asking for. It wasn't water that helped Los Angeles. And in fact, it sounds like it was water that these agencies had to scramble to make sure that nobody got flooded.

[Sammy Roth]

That's right. They needed to scramble to see how do we handle this water, which we weren't expecting. And not at this time of year. As one water manager told my colleague Jessica Garrison, I believe someone in D.C. got a little overzealous.

[Host]

That's a very nice way to put it. You know, it's reminding me of William Mulholland built the Owens Valley aqueduct more than 100 years ago. That famous speech. There it is. Take it. When the water comes flowing down to Los Angeles, except. Except there's no one there to take.

[Sammy Roth]

It in this case. That's exactly right.

[Host]

Let's pull back and do a little context. And I want to get back to Los Angeles and the fires and climate change in a few minutes. But before we do, I mean, the way that water works in California, where we have these two big systems, the Central Valley Project, which you've alluded to, which is the federal system and the State Water Project, both of which bring water from the delta where these rivers converge south of the Bay Area, and they. They pump all of this water down towards the farmers in the Central Valley, San Joaquin Valley, and then down towards the Los Angeles area. And all these major cities. Talk a little bit about why these water delivery systems, just why they've become such a source of controversy and I guess such a source of fascination and frustration, not only for Trump, but for other Republicans and for even some moderate Democrats. There are all these endangered species issues. It just seems like people are fighting all the time about how much water should get delivered to cities and to farmers, and what does that mean for endangered fish in the delta and for the delta smelt in particular, which Trump likes to talk about all the time. Just give us a little bit of context about that, because I think that'll be important for grounding the rest of this conversation.

[Sammy Roth]

Yeah, and I think it's important to note that California is really built on a tremendous federal and state investment in water infrastructure to move water around, to pump it up and over mountains. And these two large water systems can be thought of as basically two superhighways of water. They take water from dams in Northern California. The water then passes through the delta to these giant, massive pumps in the southern part of the delta, which then pushes the water into these aqueducts and pipelines, and the state system snakes up and over the Tehachapi Mountains, gets to the cities of Southern California, and the federally operated Central Valley Project runs to the east and ends around the Bakersfield area. And so that if you ever drive.

[Host]

Up and down the five, by the way, you see those giant aqueducts, this is what you're looking at. Those are those big Water systems.

[Sammy Roth]

Exactly. And so they've been a source of perpetual conflict because agriculture and cities depend on this water. Agriculture in particular has seen restrictions on the amount of water going south because of protections for endangered and threatened fish in the Delta. And this has created all sorts of tensions between farmers, agricultural, irrigation districts, and environmental groups and tribes over how California should manage these competing interests. And it often feels like a perpetual battle over how much will be taken out of the Delta and how the state should prioritize the water in its rivers.

[Host]

I'm remembering during Trump's first campaign for office, and I mean, the rhetoric has only heated up and intensified since then, but he talked a lot, and so did other. I mean, I remember Ted Cruz going on about this, too. But there's a lot of focus on the Delta smelt. People are always saying, oh, this, this little tiny. What is it, 6 inch or maybe even smaller? This little tiny fish. Why are we holding back water for the sake of this tiny little endangered fish? But it's not just the Delta smelt, right? I mean, there are all sorts of other. I mean, what, salmon and steelhead? I mean, why do you think people focus so much on the smelt?

[Sammy Roth]

Yeah, the Delta smelt has become a real political punching bag in all of this. And President Trump has talked often about how water has been prioritized for a tiny little fish. But it is more complicated than that. The Delta smelt is in danger of disappearing, and that there is no doubt about that. Its numbers have gone down over the years. But it's not the only fish that is struggling in the Delta. There are also Central Valley steelhead. There is chinook salmon. And those population numbers have also been declining dramatically. At the same time, during dry years, there have been more toxic algae blooms in parts of the Delta, which affect the local communities as well. And so the perpetual debate over the health of the Delta environment, how can the state not lose these threatened and endangered species and still continue to support farms and cities?

[Host]

One thing that was so striking to me about the water releases in the Central Valley from those two dams, where the water just didn't go to anyone and perhaps even hurt farmers, because there were irrigators who were waiting to get that water in the summer is that it seems like for such a long time, Trump has just been. I mean, my impression at least, has been that he's just really interested in rewarding his supporters. In the San Joaquin Valley, big farmers have been very pro Trump. You drive up and down, you do reporting in that region, as you and I Have a lot of the big farmers and ranchers have given a lot of money to the Trump campaigns and have been hoping to get more water as a reward for that. But at least for me, it makes me wonder, well, is the Trump administration going to have the capacity to create policy that's actually helpful for them? Is the federal government a trusted and reliable partner that knows how to operate water systems in a way that's beneficial, or do they really not even know how to operate these systems? I mean, I was just reading a post that John Fleck, the water expert in New Mexico, he just wrote a post wherein I think it was a dam on the Rio Grande river where they just, I'm not sure if you saw this, but they just released a bunch of water by mistake on the Rio Grande and created flooding risk. And John Fleck was raising the question, is the federal government just an unreliable partner now at doing the basic work of operating water infrastructure? And that that made me stop and think, gee, it used to be just these political debates, how much water should we allocate where? And now it feels a little bit more complicated than that of can we trust them to do the basic work of operating the infrastructure?

[Sammy Roth]

Well, that's to be seen. And it's an open question because there are these mass firings happening and major cutbacks at agencies that do things like monitoring the weather and delivering water to farms and cities and operating pumping stations. So that is an open question as to how they will fare if these cutbacks prove to be as large as initially said they might be.

[Host]

Something you sent me before this conversation was the clip of Representative Mike Levin, Democrat out of the northern San Diego county, southern Orange county area, drilling. It was a lieutenant general from the Army Corps about those water releases from those two dams in the San Joaquin Valley. What did you make of that clip? What were you thinking while watching it?

[Sammy Roth]

Yeah, he really struggled to answer what was the purpose of this? How was it decided? And basically said he doesn't know where the water goes when it's released from the dam, which is hard to believe. Some of the people who were involved must have known where the water would go. But to get to your other question, I do think that President Trump does have strong support in the San Joaquin Valley among farmers and others. And some of these actions may be calculated to play to those supporters, regardless of whether they actually deliver real benefits. Some of them may be seemingly photo ops or to make a political statement, something that might make people cheer. So maybe that's the purpose of some of these actions. Even if they don't serve any real purpose to help those who support him.

[Host]

Do you see there being potential for California to. I mean, for the people who manage water in California, is there going to be much ability to work with the Trump administration on water and find common ground, or avenues to common ground maybe is the wrong term. But are they going to be able to work together and find ability to cooperate and collaborate, or is it just going to be conflict, conflict, conflict? Like what are some of the areas you're watching there to see what happens next?

[Sammy Roth]

Well, the state and the federal government certainly might find some areas to collaborate on. And what we've heard from the Trump administration so far, both from President Trump himself, as well as the Bureau of Reclamation, which manages dams and pumping facilities in the delta, is that they plan to carry out the president's executive order seeking to maximize the delivery of water. And so how they do that remains to be seen and is not entirely clear. But that does seem to be the direction they're trying to move. And as for what the federal government could do, that would also be in line with what California is trying to do. The Trump administration has said that they will be continuing investments in plans for building sites reservoir, the first new major reservoir in many years, which is also a state priority.

[Host]

Right. Governor Newsom supports that, as I recall.

[Sammy Roth]

Yes. And then also the state and the federal government seem to be on the same page about raising the dam at San Luis Reservoir, which is a major reservoir south of the delta that holds supplies for both the state and federal projects. But how much they're talking about day to day water management is not clear. It seems like state water managers have not been in the loop when the federal government has made sudden decisions like releasing water from those two dams.

[Host]

Yeah, the coordination between the state and federal water managers, I think is going to be really important to watch. I mean, one of the things that I've taking away from your stories is that the State Water Project and the Central Valley Project, these two big aqueducts that bring water from the delta down south, I mean, historically have been operated by necessity in really close coordination because they're pulling water from the same place, basically. And correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of what you've written is that if the Trump administration is trying to pull a bunch more water, if they do try to pull a bunch more water from the federal system, that the environmental standards to protect the ecological health of the delta, that could then require the state, if Trump is pulling a lot more from the federal system, the state might have to then cut back and pull less from the state system, both to protect the endangered species and also to stop salt water from coming in from the ocean and intruding on the estuary on the Bay Delta. And that could lead to reduced deliveries on the state system to people who are dependent on that water. So it sounds like that could be a pretty dangerous situation if they're not working in tandem.

[Sammy Roth]

That's what I've heard from both experts as well as people who work for the state, is that that is a possibility. Now, there are rules to manage these projects in coordination, and that has been the way things have been done in the past. But President Trump has indicated he wants to redo these rules, which the last round of them were finalized during the Biden administration. And the state and the feds work together to come up with a plan that they thought would work. But now that seems to be not the way things are going, it sounds like.

[Host]

And I know that you probably have some reporting on this, you know, when you get a chance, when you're not busy writing 20 stories in a month on fake military invasions and horrible wildfires. But, I mean, I feel like there are parallels here to what's happening with the Colorado river, where another major water source for Southern California and tens of millions of people across the western United States. But where historically there's been close cooperation between states and local governments and the federal government, where there's been this careful management to make sure that the system, the Hoover Dam and Lake Mead and Lake Powell and Glen Canyon Dam, where it all stays in balance and everyone is negotiating and making sure that the system doesn't crash. But I don't know, just watching it, you know, sort of from a little bit of a remove, it feels like, who knows what's going to happen with the Trump administration. Are they going to do things the way they've always been done, or are they going to take a, you know, a brash and different approach that's going to end up leading to litigation and terrible uncertainty?

[Sammy Roth]

Right. The Colorado river is not in good shape, and Lake mead is now 35% full. It has been hovering around these levels for the last several years. It has continued to be quite dry and temperatures have been rising. So that's been the story of the Colorado river For the last 25 years or so is just continual declines and taking more water out than has been coming into the system. And the states right now. The seven states that depend on the Colorado river have been struggling to hash out. How can they deal with just a river that's not delivering anywhere near what it used to.

[Host]

Yeah. And you need a federal partner to make those agreements and arrangements. Right. Because, I mean, the federal government operates that whole system and historically enforced these rules, right?

[Sammy Roth]

Well, the federal government has historically prodded the states to reach agreements and has served as something of a negotiating partner and something of an organizer in this process. But how the Trump administration will approach it, we don't know yet.

[Host]

You were talking about potential for collaboration on raising dams, which is going to be controversial if that's the case, because you've got certainly environmental groups who, you know, don't want to see new dams or dams being raised. One thing that caught my attention. Have you been following the Potter Valley project, the proposed dam decommissionings on the Eel River?

[Sammy Roth]

Yes. And that is another interesting topic that I'm looking into, actually, as we speak.

[Host]

Well, stay tuned for more reporting from Ian. You know, Ian's written a lot about, and for those who haven't read it, has done some of the absolute most incredible reporting on the decommissioning of the dams on the Klamath river up along the California Oregon border. So there's additional dams on the Eel River. And I think I saw that the Lake County Board of Supervisors is now asking the Trump administration to step in and stop those Potter Valley dams from coming down.

[Sammy Roth]

I had seen that, too. That seems like it's interesting. My understanding is that there are various parties, including water districts, a local tribe and others, who are in agreement in taking down those dams on the Eel River. But it's not done yet.

[Host]

Not done yet. So we'll have to look out and read your story on that. And then I'll repeat everything you write and pretend that I know what I'm talking about when I'm just repeating what you've reported.

[Sammy Roth]

Oh, thanks so much.

[Host]

Let's go back to where we started. So you talked at the top of this conversation about the real water problems with the wildfires in Los Angeles, being that the system wasn't designed to provide enough water to provide the type of water pressure needed. To what extent were there actually problems with the water system, and to what extent was it just, you know, this was. These are really, really intense, you know, wildfires being made worse by climate change that our system was not designed to handle?

[Sammy Roth]

Well, there have been a lot of questions about why that reservoir was offline for so long for maintenance. It's a reservoir operated by LA Department of Water and Power, and it is in the Pacific Palisades area, it had been offline for nearly a year. And what experts and water management officials have told us is that if that reservoir had been online, it would have provided undoubtedly some additional water to keep fire hydrants going for a time. But would it have been enough? Probably not. Not with the intensity of these fires, not with how the system is built and the bottlenecks in it for moving quantities of water. It's just when there's a fast moving wildfire that burns through entire neighborhoods, the water system is simply not built to withstand it, to put it out. And so there were real problems with the water that are being investigated. You know, the state Governor Newsom called for an investigation into what happened. The city is similarly looking into what went wrong and how it could be improved. In the future. I think there will be more discussion about how could the local water system have more stored water capacity locally to fight big fires if something like this were to happen again in the same area. But of course, there are many communities like this across Southern California that are in areas that naturally are fire prone, are on the edge of areas with a lot of vegetation that can burn. And so I think it'll also drive more discussions about how can urban water systems and the way communities are built improve to better protect them from fires.

[Host]

And you've done several stories about the role of climate change in all of this. What have you learned about the role of rising temperatures and increasingly dry conditions in leading to bigger and more destructive fires like these?

[Sammy Roth]

A group of UCLA scientists looked at this question and put out a rapid analysis. It was not a peer reviewed study, but more what do we know based on the science of how climate change contributed to these fires? And the factors included a previous wet year that led to a lot of vegetation growth and then an extremely dry run of months before the fires. And a lot of that appears to have been natural random weather variations. But on top of that, we have the higher temperatures driven by climate change and the burning of fossil fuels, which then increased the dryness, made the vegetation that much drier and increased the intensity, basically made the fires that much more destructive and that much bigger than they would have been if we didn't have that additional increment of warmth driven by climate change.

[Host]

And does that track, I mean, you've written a lot about climate research and climate science over the years. Does that track with what you've learned from other peer reviewed studies and from interviewing scientists?

[Sammy Roth]

Yes, I think it does. One interesting footnote in all this is that even as we look at the West As a whole, wildfires have become bigger, more destructive, and climate change is certainly one major factor in that. In Southern California, those who have studied it say that the trends are not so clear as far as larger or worse wildfires over time. But when you have a year like this where there was a lot of vegetation growth next to areas with lots of homes, and then it's extremely dry, and then climate change added to that dryness and made it that much more dangerous, then that's what led to this really dangerous mix of conditions, as well as strong winds, which happens sometimes in Southern California.

[Host]

Yeah, I mean, when you talk about looking at ways to, to restructure, rebuild water systems and firefighting strategies and the hydrants and the reservoirs to make it easier to, to see if it's possible to make it easier to put out flames like this or to address fires like this, it just makes me think, what are the costs? What is sustainable? I mean, the economics. I mean, climate change is such a economically devastating phenomenon. Trying to harden ourselves completely. Just realistically, it's just not possible from all of the impacts that we face. It's all a question of trade offs and costs and benefits. And, you know, that's not to say we should write anyone or any place off, but these are really hard questions.

[Sammy Roth]

Probably, yeah, probably really difficult. But I think we can do better both in terms of fire and water, if, if we as a society are listening to the scientists and the science and looking at, well, how bad could this be in terms of fire in this area or how bad could drought be in this area and how can we adapt to that? And I think those are really important discussions to be focused on and writing about in our coverage.

[Host]

Totally agree with you. I think that's a much better starting place than listening to social media posts from agents of disinformation who happen to be the president.

[Sammy Roth]

Yeah, I would agree with you on that.

[Host]

Ian, thank you very much for being with us on the Boiling Point podcast.

[Sammy Roth]

Thanks so much, Sammy.

[Ian James]

One last thing. I'm not sure if this is good news or bad news, but Ian reported last week that snowpack in the Sierra.

[Host]

Nevada, which is the source of a.

[Ian James]

Lot of California's water, was at 85% of average for this time of year. All things considered, that number could be a lot worse. But if not for climate change, there's a chance it might be even better. Scientists told Ian that if not for warmer than average temperatures, snowpack levels would probably be higher. So the next time you hear somebody say we're not in a drought, there's no global warming or California's always had droughts. This isn't about climate change. Just take a deep breath and try not to let them distract you. You know what's really going on. You know the truth. Thank you for listening to Boiling Point. I'm your host, Sammy Roth. My producers are Mary Knoff and Jonathan Shiflett. Sound design and original music by Jonathan Shiflett. Elijah Wolfson is our editor.

[Host]

Denise Callahan is our studio manager. Ben Church is our production manager.

[Ian James]

Nick Norton is our engineer. Special thanks to LA Times Studio President, Anna Magzanian, President and Chief Operating Officer of the Los Angeles Times, Chris Argentieri.

[Host]

And Executive Editor of the Los Angeles Times, Terry Tang.

[Ian James]

Boiling Point is executive produced by Darius.

[Host]

Derekshon and created by me, Sammy Roth.