The Lithium Dilemma at Rhyolite Ridge, Part 1

Summary

Summary of "The Lithium Dilemma at Rhyolite Ridge, Part 1" – Boiling Point Podcast

Episode Title: The Lithium Dilemma at Rhyolite Ridge, Part 1
Host: Sami Roth
Release Date: June 12, 2025
Duration: [Not Specified]

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Introduction

In this compelling episode of Boiling Point, host Sami Roth delves into the environmental and economic tensions surrounding the proposed Rhyolite Ridge Lithium Mine in Esmeralda County, Nevada. The discussion centers on the delicate balance between advancing renewable energy technologies and preserving unique ecosystems threatened by mining activities.

The Importance of Lithium and Rhyolite Ridge

Lithium is a critical component in lithium-ion batteries, essential for electric vehicles and energy storage systems that facilitate the use of renewable energy sources like solar power. Currently, the United States relies on only one active lithium mine located near Rhyolite Ridge. The proposed project by the Australian company Ioneer aims to establish a significantly larger operation less than 20 miles from the California border.

"Lithium is a key ingredient in lithium ion batteries... But what are the environmental costs of the clean energy transition?" — Sami Roth [03:24]

The Biden administration approved the mine last year, providing a nearly $1 billion loan guarantee just days before President Trump's term began. Interestingly, despite Trump's general affinity for mining, he did not attempt to retract this funding.

Ecological Concerns: Teams Buckwheat

Naomi Fraga, a botany professor at Claremont Graduate University and the director of conservation programs at the California Botanic Garden, is a central voice in this episode. She brings attention to Teams Buckwheat, an endangered wildflower endemic to a mere 10 acres in Nevada. Fraga argues that the proposed mine poses a significant threat to this rare species.

"The solution to the climate crisis is not to send us to Mars. It's to save planet Earth." — Naomi Fraga [02:38]

Detailed Ecological Impact

Teams Buckwheat thrives in the mineral-rich white soil of Rhyolite Ridge, an environment unsuitable for most other plants. The proposed mining activities would lead to habitat fragmentation, pollution from dust and non-native species, and the destruction of essential pollinator habitats—all of which could drive Teams Buckwheat to extinction.

"If we really restrict ourselves to species that we find useful to our particular society... what kind of future are we building?" — Botanist [04:27]

Fraga emphasizes that conserving biodiversity requires preserving all its components, no matter how obscure they may seem.

Legal and Conservation Efforts

The Center for Biological Diversity, along with the Western Shoshone and the Western Watersheds Project, has filed a lawsuit disputing the federal approval of the mine. They claim that the environmental impact assessments were flawed and that the mine would cause irreparable harm to the Teams Buckwheat population.

"Extinction is forever... it's not a species, it's a museum specimen." — Botanist [31:48]

Broader Context: Renewable Energy Sacrifice Zone

Nevada has become a focal point for renewable energy projects, including lithium mines and expansive solar farms like the Esmeralda 7 complex. With approximately 80% of the state's land designated as federal public lands, it has earned the reputation of being a "renewable energy sacrifice zone." This designation highlights the ongoing conflicts between energy development and environmental conservation.

"The answer to our renewable energy crisis is not extinction... but we need a domestic supply of lithium." — Botanist [24:14]

Insights and Reflections

• Complex Trade-offs: The episode underscores the intricate balance between advancing renewable energy infrastructure and protecting vulnerable ecosystems.

• Unique Ecological Niches: Even seemingly insignificant species like Teams Buckwheat play vital roles in their ecosystems, supporting broader biodiversity.

• Regulatory Challenges: Federal approvals for mining projects can sometimes overlook the nuanced interdependencies within ecosystems, necessitating legal interventions.

• Public Lands Management: The heavy reliance on federal public lands for renewable energy projects in Nevada underscores a need for more sustainable and balanced land management policies.

Conclusions

Boiling Point effectively highlights the critical dilemma faced by policymakers, conservationists, and the renewable energy sector. While lithium mining is indispensable for reducing fossil fuel dependency, it must not come at the expense of unique and irreplaceable ecosystems like that of Teams Buckwheat at Rhyolite Ridge. Ongoing legal battles and advocacy efforts aim to halt or modify projects to mitigate environmental harm, emphasizing that sustainable solutions must account for all components of the ecosystem.

"We're trying to protect biodiversity. It's like all the pieces to the puzzle. Some pieces are these irreplaceable, unique forms of life..." — Botanist [04:27]

The episode sets the stage for a continued discussion in Part 2, where Bernard Rowe, managing director of Ioneer, will present the company's perspective, arguing that responsible mining and conservation efforts can coexist.

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Key Quotes with Timestamps

• Sami Roth [02:38]: "The solution to the climate crisis is not to send us to Mars. It's to save planet Earth."

• Naomi Fraga [15:03]: "Teams Buckwheat offers us a glimpse into a unique way of life... extinction is forever."

• Botanist [04:27]: "If we really restrict ourselves to species that we find useful to our particular society... what kind of future are we building?"

• Sami Roth [03:24]: "But what are the environmental costs of the clean energy transition?"

• Botanist [24:14]: "The answer to our renewable energy crisis is not extinction... but we need a domestic supply of lithium."

• Botanist [31:48]: "Extinction is forever... it's not a species, it's a museum specimen."

• Botanist [04:27]: "We're trying to protect biodiversity. It's like all the pieces to the puzzle. Some pieces are these irreplaceable, unique forms of life..."

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, providing readers with a clear understanding of the critical issues discussed, the perspectives of key individuals, and the broader implications for renewable energy and environmental conservation.

Transcript

[Podcast Host]

This is an LA Times Studios podcast.

[Sami Roth]

My name is Sami Roth and I'm the climate columnist for the Los Angeles Times. This is a special edition of Boiling Point. On a cloudy day this spring, I met up with Naomi Fraga, a botany professor at Claremont Graduate University.

[Naomi Fraga]

Am I saying TMS, buckwheat. TMS, buckwheat. Tms, buckwheat is that. That is endemic.

[Botanist]

Endemic here. 10 acres. We could walk its whole entire range in a day.

[Naomi Fraga]

We're not going to.

[Botanist]

No, we're not going to. But we could, theoretically, if we really wanted to.

[Naomi Fraga]

10 acres.

[Botanist]

I've done it many times.

[Sami Roth]

She's the director of conservation programs at the California Botanic Garden in LA County. But we were a long way from Southern California. That thing we were talking about, teams buckwheat. It's an endangered wildflower that only exists in Esmeralda County, Nevada. Fraga got interested in this flower in part because it's so rare and because she loves the desert.

[Botanist]

As a botanist, you know, you see a weird soil and you're like, bet you there's something interesting growing there.

[Sami Roth]

Fraga wanted to show me what team's buckwheat looks like. So we drove a long ways down a dirt road with not much reception.

[Naomi Fraga]

So we're getting out here.

[Sami Roth]

Okay, let's see some buckwheat. Eventually we got out of the car at the foot of a hill covered with chalky white mineral rich soil.

[Botanist]

So tubes Buckwheat occurs on this little ridge here. It occurs especially on this white soil.

[Sami Roth]

We walked carefully up the hill, watching our step to make sure we didn't step on any. Wait, were those Teams Buckwheat?

[Botanist]

This little, very humble, low growing plant.

[Naomi Fraga]

Oh, my God, it's so tiny.

[Botanist]

Very tiny. Very low in stature.

[Sami Roth]

I've got to be honest, they weren't super photogenic. They almost looked like mold.

[Naomi Fraga]

When they flower.

[Sami Roth]

They're white, right?

[Botanist]

The flowers are a cream color, like a yellow. I think they're very happy looking plants when they're in flower, they're very cheerful. And yeah, it's a happy scene. Like to see all the pollinator action. Like it feels like you could feel like the fecundity in the air, you.

[Naomi Fraga]

Know, Good use of fecundity.

[Botanist]

Yeah.

[Naomi Fraga]

Where else do you want to take us?

[Botanist]

I was hoping to take you out to basically where the action's gonna happen with the pit.

[Naomi Fraga]

The pit that she's talking about will.

[Sami Roth]

Be part of the proposed Rhyolite Ridge Lithium mine. Lithium is a key ingredient in lithium ion batteries. For electric cars and energy storage systems that keep the lights on after dark using solar power. Right now, the United States has only one active lithium mine, also in Nevada, not far from Rhyolite Ridge. Rhyolite Ridge would be much bigger, and conservationists say it could drive teams buckwheat to extinction. Rhyolite Ridge is being developed by the Australian company Eye and Ear. It would be built on federal lands less than 20 miles from the California state line, a bit closer to Reno.

[Naomi Fraga]

Than to Las Vegas.

[Sami Roth]

The Biden administration approved the mine last year. The Biden administration also announced a nearly $1 billion loan guarantee for ioneer just three days before President Trump took office. Believe it or not, Trump hasn't tried to eliminate that funding. Unlike wind or solar power, Trump really loves mining, even mining for clean energy metals. Eye and Ear says it plans to start construction later this year. The company has contracts in place to sell lithium to Ford and other parties. But what are the environmental costs of the clean energy transition? Would it matter if a tiny flower that only exists across a handful of acres were to go extinct?

[Botanist]

There are people who are proponents of the mine who call it the little weed, you know, and just see it as sort of like a nuisance and like, who cares? It's just this little gray plant.

[Sami Roth]

Fraga knows the world will need a lot of lithium to stop burning fossil fuels and slow the climate crisis. She didn't mean to become one of the main activists fighting one of the country's biggest lithium mines.

[Botanist]

That said, we're trying to protect biodiversity. It's like it's all the pieces to the puzzle. And some of the pieces to the puzzle are just sort of these irreplaceable, unique forms of life that thrive in places other life can't. And if we really sort of restrict ourselves to those species that we find useful to our particular society at a certain place and time, like, what kind of future are we building?

[Sami Roth]

Across the American west, there are similar battles playing out over the clean energy transition. If you want to build a solar.

[Naomi Fraga]

Farm or a power line or a.

[Sami Roth]

Lithium mine, it's hard to find a place where you're not going to run into endangered species habitat or an indigenous cultural site or some other kind of environmental or cultural conflict. I went to Rhyolite Ridge, about a six and a half hour drive from Los Angeles, because it's one of the clearest examples of conflict between climate and conservation. On the one hand, you have a lithium mine. On the other hand, you have conservationists saying a species will go Extinct.

[Botanist]

Like I say, I'm not opposed to renewable energy. I know that flu amount of the build out is going to happen on public lands, and that's going to facilitate the transition. But how do we plan for it in such a way that we reduce impacts to biodiversity, to cultural values, to, you know, a set of values that I think are relevant and important for our future?

[Sami Roth]

When we got to Rhyolite Ridge, we spent a lot of time looking at the white soil. In addition to lithium, the soil's got a lot of boron in it, another mineral that Eye and Ear plans to extract. According to Fraga, the white soil is one of the things that makes the area such good habitat for Teams Buckwheat.

[Naomi Fraga]

What's so good about the white soil?

[Botanist]

What's so good it's adapted to highly mineralized soil. If I could ask Team Buckwheat questions, I would ask it what's so weird about the soil?

[Naomi Fraga]

But what I mean, when you say highly mineralized, what are the minerals in it?

[Botanist]

Boron in particular.

[Naomi Fraga]

And so it's the same thing that makes this good for mining, makes it good for Teams Buckwheat.

[Botanist]

Yeah. And it's a kind of a profile of minerals that isn't good for your typical plant, like a tomato wouldn't like it out here or much of these other species that occur on these other soils.

[Sami Roth]

In other words. Yeah, it's just one little flower, but it's an important part of a thriving desert ecosystem. As we walked across the landscape, admiring the mountains and the vegetation and the rocks, and it was hard for me not to feel sympathy for the place.

[Naomi Fraga]

So cool.

[Sami Roth]

Before too long, we got to the.

[Naomi Fraga]

Spot where Eye and Ear plans to dig its mining pit.

[Botanist]

Oh, yeah, look it. We're in the pit.

[Naomi Fraga]

Oh, this would be part of the pit.

[Botanist]

Yeah. That white soil. Yeah, that's Toombs Buckwheat habitat. So this is. These are the plants closest to the edge of the pit.

[Naomi Fraga]

Okay, so we just entered. So, like, between here and where we're.

[Botanist]

That there's still more pit that way.

[Naomi Fraga]

Okay. But that habitat there would not be part of the pit.

[Botanist]

It'd be 13ft away from the pit.

[Sami Roth]

The whole area was beautiful. Rugged mountains, narrow canyons, sweeping views. I could see why you'd want to protect this place. On the other hand, lithium has to come from somewhere, right?

[Naomi Fraga]

I mean, I guess I'm curious, do you think fundamentally, like, does it make sense for the, you know, United States and I guess this part of the country, like, should we be trying to do more lithium production or is that like fundamental concept flawed?

[Botanist]

No, I think that we should have a domestic supply of lithium, especially to not offshore our demand to like Chile, you know, where there are indigenous communities that are losing their water. There's endemic species down there.

[Naomi Fraga]

Yeah.

[Botanist]

So I'm not trying to push those impacts somewhere else. Mining is a dirty business. Right. Like there, there's no good mine that doesn't cause some impact somewhere. But lithium based on current technologies is an essential part. Right. Of our renewable energy transition. Maybe we'll have different technologies 10 years down the line. There's a lot we could have done. Right. But now we're here and so that's. How do I move forward? And I move forward by promoting the best available science, saying that biodiversity matters, even if it's an obscure wildflower that most people have never heard of.

[Naomi Fraga]

I mean, what you're doing is working. A lot of people have heard about Teams Buckwheat.

[Botanist]

Well, it is now officially the most famous buckwheat in the world. That's for sure.

[Sami Roth]

This week's Boiling Point is part one of a two part episode. Today we'll hear from Fraga about why she thinks Rhyolite Ridge is the wrong place for a lithium mine. Next week we'll hear from Bernard Rowe, the managing director of Ioneer, about why he's convinced the lithium mine and Teams Buckwheat can coexist just fine. The stakes are high. Fossil fuel combustion is heating the planet to dangerous levels. Let's go see if we can figure it out. In Esmeralda County, Nevada, population 720.

[Mary Knoff]

Hi, my name is Mary Knoff and I'm a producer on Boiling Point. We are here with Joanne o' Neill, Director of Customer programs at Clean Power Alliance. Hi, Joanne.

[Podcast Host]

Hello.

[Mary Knoff]

Can you tell us a little bit about cleaning Clean Power Alliance?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So Clean Power alliance is the not for profit electricity provider for 3 million residents and businesses across Los Angeles and Ventura Counties.

[Mary Knoff]

What renewable energy options does CPA offer its customers?

[Podcast Host]

So Clean Power alliance offers customers a series of choices between Lean Power, clean power or 100% green power to ensure that people have the option to choose a rate that's right for them and maximize their renewable energy.

[Mary Knoff]

Well, thank you so much for speaking with us, Joanne.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Mary Knoff]

Take the next step in building a more resilient and clean energy future for Southern California. To learn more, please visit cleanpoweralliance.org powerresponse. Again, that's cleanpoweralliance.org powerResponse.

[Southern California Edison Representative]

During one of the most severe windstorms Southern California experienced in more than a decade, the Palisades and Eaton fires ignited, leaving heartbreaking losses in our communities. Now, as we build back, we're building stronger, cleaner and more resilient in communities most vulnerable to dangerous weather conditions and wildfires. Southern California Edison is placing power lines underground, hardening the electric system by installing wires with protective coating, and adding advanced technology to help keep communities safe. So when Southern California faces the next storm, the next most severe event, helicopters.

[Naomi Fraga]

Structures adjacent here at Pipe Road.

[Southern California Edison Representative]

We'll be ready. Learn [e-mail] disasterrecovery.

[Naomi Fraga]

Naomi, thank you very much for being with us on the Boiling Point podcast.

[Botanist]

Thank you for having me.

[Naomi Fraga]

So we're sitting here at the. At the edge of the Fish Lake Valley. Hot well, beautiful little pond out here in the Great Basin desert. We've got American coots recreating on the pond. We've got the sound of a truck pumping water in the background here. We were just out on foot exploring the planned site of the Rhyolite Ridge lithium mine. You were showing us around where this company, eye and ear, wants to dig this big open pit mine and telling us all about Teams Buckwheat, this endangered wildflower that would be threatened by the mine. Talk about how you first started learning about Teams Buckwheat and what got you engaged with the story of this wildflower.

[Botanist]

Well, I first became acquainted with teams Buckwheat in 2019. I learned about it through a fellow botanist who was concerned about a proposed mining project that would place the plant at risk of extinction. And then I further learned about it from my close friend at the time, colleague, and my partner, actually. His name is Patrick Donnelly. He was concerned about it and he sort of engaged me asking if I would come out to see the plant with him. And I was very curious about the threat of extinction to a species, what that looked like, and if I could utilize my scientific knowledge and understanding of plants to prevent a future extinction. So I came out to the site and toured around the whole global population of the plant in a single day.

[Naomi Fraga]

Right. It's not a big space that this plant exists in. Right. I mean, this flower, what do you tell me? 10 acres is the whole.

[Botanist]

The whole range of the plant is just about 10 acres. So it's a very small area that it occupies. That's 10 acres across, like, just like two and a half, three miles, you know, across. So you can walk it in an entire day pretty easily. That day, that first day that I came out to find it, it was in full bloom and all the other plants around it were blooming profusely. Lots of wildflowers like penstemon and globe mallow and all these sorts of things were in bloom. And so it just felt like a very vibrant ecosystem, something that was really magnificent. And it was sort of hard to fathom that someone was proposing to build a huge open pit mine right in the middle of where these plants grow. And it seemed obvious, it was very obvious that a mine of that scale would place this species, like, at imminent risk of extinction.

[Naomi Fraga]

What to you, makes this plant so special or so worthwhile of protection? I mean, obviously it's an endangered species and that provides legal rights. But why is this thing, for you personally, so special and why is it so important that we protect it?

[Botanist]

Yeah, well, Team Buckwheat offers us a glimpse into a unique way of life, a unique way to live on this planet. It occurs in this very extreme habitat, this soil that very few other plants can even exist on. And it's evolved to take advantage and to be able to exploit and occupy this area that is otherwise seemingly uninhabitable by other species. There are other extreme environments that scientists study where we find value, where we're thinking about bacteria and deep thermal vents, or we're thinking about, you know, just how life can live at all ends of the Earth. And one like that's an intellectual curiosity, but I think it's also just to understand the ways of life we have on this planet and to preserve the Earth is to consider all the ways it is to be on this Earth. And so I think that, right, it presents this unique way of life that I think is special. And it is a whole species. It's a whole species and extinction is forever. And in the United States, we have espoused our values in the Endangered Species act to preserve species and to not have our government cause extinction.

[Naomi Fraga]

So I think, right, the federal government has approved, as of now, this mine, the rhyolite lich lithium mine. I mean, that's a government action that was taken.

[Botanist]

That is a government action that was taken and it was based on a flawed analysis. And the center for Biological Diversity has launched a lawsuit to dispute, though, that finding and that idea that this mine could exist without causing extinction of the plant. Because like you mentioned, they've modified their mine plan to not actually dig up plants, but to place the mining pit a mere 13ft away from the plant, which obviously presents a significant risk to the species. This is a 960 foot deep open mine pit. This is an industrial mine site, all within the footprint of the entire range of the species.

[Naomi Fraga]

Right. The company says they could build this mine without sending this plant into extinction, without sending this wildflower, you know, over the edge to where it's gone. You disagree? Why, why do you think? So talk about that in a little more detail. Why do you feel so sure that if this mine gets built, there's at least a good chance, if not a certainty, that this wildflower is going to cease to exist?

[Botanist]

Yeah, I disagree for a number of reasons. One is just the magnitude of threat that the mine presents from habitat fragmentation, from invasion of non native species into the habitat which is already occurring due to their mining exploration activities, to massive amounts of dust that will be put up into the air that will limit reproduction and photosynthesis and essential physiological processes that are required for the plant's life, to destroying essential pollinator habitat. One of the scientific findings that has been found is that pollinators are really essential to the lifeway of the buckwheat. They need cross pollination in order to reproduce new plants. And they also support this incredible diversity of pollinators. They are a member of a very rich ecosystem of insects, you know, and other organisms. And the open pit and the tailings pile, the waste rock would destroy 20% of habitat that is deemed critical for the long term survival of the species. And so 5%, 10%, 20%, it's all too much. It's. That's critical habitat for the species.

[Naomi Fraga]

So there's huge disruption. Even if they're not like literally digging up the wildflower, there's huge disruption to the whole area where it exists. And it's, and it's this whole. You're saying it's not just the wildflower itself, it's this whole ecosystem that it's a part of.

[Botanist]

Yeah, that's true. And you come out here to Silver Peak Range, a place not a lot of people have visited.

[Naomi Fraga]

This is my first time today and it's beautiful out here.

[Botanist]

It's an incredible place.

[Naomi Fraga]

I wish people could see it here with us.

[Botanist]

Yeah, I mean, it's a vibrant place. It holds special and unique values. It's. Aside from the ecology and the biodiversity, there's important cultural values, the aesthetics, the geology. It's a magnificent place. And this project stands to transform a fundamentally awesome place.

[Naomi Fraga]

Yeah, I mean, we're sitting here by the edge of this, this little, this little hot springs pool and I mean, these mountain ranges, it's just, it's so flat and then the mountains just jut up at these incredible angles, they're these salt flats. What was it like for you when you first started coming out to Nevada for research and as you started to get to know this, this part of the Great Basin.

[Botanist]

Yeah. I mean, the deserts and specifically Nevada has really blown my mind as a person of. And born of. Right. The urban suburban environment to be able to come into a place where human infrastructure is not the dominating factor. And, you know, it's as wild as wild can be. Wild in a way that includes humans, it includes wildlife, it includes incredible landscapes. And it just has really floored me to see just. It's sort of endless in Nevada, a very sparsely populated state that is, by and large, public lands. And that's why.

[Naomi Fraga]

Right. It's like 80% of the state is like, federal public lands.

[Botanist]

Right, Right. And, you know, these are our public lands. I'm a Californian, but these are federal public lands. These are my public lands. And to be able to study, to conduct scientific research here, to learn about plants living sort of in extreme environments, it feels like you're going to the end of the earth, you know?

[Naomi Fraga]

Yeah. I mean, Nevada, it's not just the lithium mining in this part of the state. Right. I mean, there's. There's lithium. Right. This rhyolite ridge mine further north of here, there's the Thacker Pass lithium mine, which is already under construction. All sorts of other mines that are operating proposed here. But then there's a huge amount of solar development. Solar farms that are built are under consideration. I mean, just over the. Just over the hills from here, there's the Esmeralda 7 complex, which is moving through permitting with the Bureau of Land Management, which I think would be the largest solar complex in the country. Correct me if I'm wrong. Collectively.

[Botanist]

Yeah.

[Naomi Fraga]

We were talking as we walked around about the idea of Nevada as like this renewable energy sacrifice zone in the minds of a lot of folks.

[Sami Roth]

Why is that the case?

[Naomi Fraga]

Like, why does so much stuff end up getting sort of dumped in Nevada's lap? And what do you make of that? I mean, how do you think about that? I mean, you're not a Nevadan, but as someone who spends a lot of time working and researching in Nevada.

[Botanist]

Yeah. Well, of those federal public lands, the majority of those are managed by the Bureau of Land Management. And the Bureau of Land Management, really, at least under the Biden administration, had a mandate to really facilitate the renewable energy transition right. Through solar, geothermal mining and these sorts of things. And given that there's so much available Right. To facilitate that development. I think Nevada clearly would be a place where a lot of the build out would occur. It's also a place that doesn't have the large populations of say like cities like Los Angeles or San Francisco or these communities that really rallied for public lands where you have like not to say that the folks here don't, don't rally for public lands. They certainly do, but they're more of a diffuse right population. You don't have the same level of protections on the landscape. You don't have areas, many areas of critical environmental concern, wilderness areas, national monuments. There's one national park and it's really.

[Naomi Fraga]

Hard to get to, by the way. Great Basin. I really want to go there. It's just way, way out of the way from anywhere you know, of a major population center.

[Botanist]

So you have this place that has incredible features, just striking vistas and a wealth of biodiversity, and it's wholly unprotected. It has no federal land designation that would confer any sort of protection from any of these industrial proposals. And so there hasn't been, I guess there just hasn't been sort of sweeping land designations to protect the best of Nevada, such that so much of the best is still vulnerable to development.

[Naomi Fraga]

Flip side of this conversation, of course, is the climate crisis. You know, we, we need a lot of lithium for electric vehicles and for large scale batteries for the power grid. We clearly need a lot of solar and other forms of renewable energy. How, how do you think about those things as you go about your work as a conservation biologist and as an advocate?

[Botanist]

Yeah, it's really hard. There's a real tension there where we need to avert the worst of the climate crisis, but in doing so we can cause real harm to ecosystems such that the future we hand down to the next generation is potentially a very bleak one. This is an extinction causing project and I firmly believe that the answer to our renewable energy crisis is not extinction. And this is an important value of Americans. This is a value I hold as a conservation scientist and so I advocate on that issue. And you know, I recognize we need lithium and so, and we need a domestic supply of lithium. What does that look like? This project is so talked about because it's one of the furthest along right towards being into any form of production, in that it's an approved project, but it's certainly not the only project. It's not our best answer for the climate crisis.

[Naomi Fraga]

I think a lot of folks who are sort of of the more maybe techno optimist or abundance mindset might Hear about environmental. And I'm not criticizing those folks either, by the way. I think there's room for all points of views, but they might hear about an environmentalist supposing a lithium mine or a solar farm, and they say, well, what's your alternative then? We're just going to keep importing lithium from overseas where environmental practices are even worse, or okay, if we don't build the solar farm, we're just going to keep building, burning natural gas and everything. That's even worse. But you're saying we do need a domestic lithium supply. It's just not here at this spot where we're gonna drive a species to extinction in your scientific view.

[Botanist]

Yeah, yeah. And there are other promising opportunities that present, you know, potential to develop a supply where maybe mitigation can solve some of the potential issues. You know, we talked about the Imperial Valley as an opportunity for securing, that's.

[Naomi Fraga]

The Salton Sea lithium supply, where maybe you can do it with less environmental harm.

[Botanist]

Right.

[Naomi Fraga]

Not that there's not some opposition there.

[Botanist]

Right. There's certainly opposition there and there's concerns over environmental justice. I would like to think or hope that there are opportunities to come to the table to find out where the solutions are. And it seems like there's more opportunities there for solutions than what we have here, where the whole mine site literally is within the entire range of the species. And there's no sort of technoing around the edges or like a little mitigation here and a planting there or tamping down dust here that really would offset the magnitude of harm to this ecosystem, to a whole species, to this place.

[Naomi Fraga]

Let me, let me press on that idea just a little bit. And then I want to ask you a couple more questions specifically about Rhyolite Ridge. I don't mean this question to be an endorsement of this particular project, but I've personally never seen a mine, a lithium mine or a solar project, or a transmission line or whatever the renewable energy related thing might be that somebody's not opposed to for some reason, environmentally or otherwise. Do you, I mean, the process that you're describing where we sort of take a holistic view and look at what are the energy needs of society, how do we minimize those needs realistically? And then how do we choose the sort of least impact, least harmful development projects to meet those needs? That makes perfect sense. Do you think from a practical standpoint we can actually do that?

[Sami Roth]

Do we have the time to do.

[Naomi Fraga]

That and actually make it happen? Given just the time crunch and the urgency of climate change? Given how much time we've lost, given how few years climate scientists say we have to get emissions below a certain threshold and avoid the worst impacts.

[Botanist]

Yeah, but I am concerned that the current avenue of exploring every project, all possible economically viable projects, is also not getting us to our goal. Because what we have here at Rhyolite Ridge is a project and that they said would be built out years ago that's been delayed because of an endangered species, because it's not the right place for a project. You have a lawsuit, you know, that has been filed against the Bureau of Land Management related to the approval of the project. And, you know, in the meantime, the price of lithium has gone down. Will we have a mine? I mean, obviously I'm advocating against the mine. I don't want to see a mine here. But. But it doesn't seem like it's leading to success. And so what are the opportunities of success? And it seems like finding, collaboration, consensus, analysis, like we need to find a way to make things happen that is not driven by pocketbooks but by, like, the greater need. Right. And it's like, right, we live in a time where like that, that's the really the driving force. And it's like, if we all really took climate change seriously, we'd find the way. And I think that, I mean, unfortunately, money's getting in the way.

[Naomi Fraga]

What has the science that you've done and that you've worked with your students. What do you think is the most likely outcome for Teams Buckwheat, if this project were to go forward? I mean, what do you think is likely to happen to this wildflower?

[Botanist]

It would be a slow death. Extinction. I mean, it would lead to extinction. And it wouldn't be.

[Sami Roth]

And how would that happen?

[Botanist]

Immediate. Yeah, it wouldn't be immediate. It'd be this, this slow death of reduction in pollinators such that the plant isn't reproducing. Massive amounts of pollution and dust, reducing the viability of individual plants and causing mortality. You know, these are perennials that have relatively long lifespans. They can live decades, maybe even over a century. Individual plants. And so it's not like you're going to see all the plants die instantly. The plants, you know, will be here for some time, but there won't be new individuals coming into the population. Recruitment you need, right? You need. There's death rates, you need birth rates. Like we're trying to. Right. We're trying to avert the climate crisis to preserve our home planet Earth. The solution to the climate crisis is not to send us to Mars. It's to save planet Earth. And the solution for Teams Buckwheat is not to pick it up and put it in a botanic garden or grow it in a greenhouse. It's to save its home, it's to save its habitat.

[Naomi Fraga]

And you said the company Eye and Ear actually tried to transplant some of the populations or one of the sub populations. Right. And it died off. That didn't work.

[Botanist]

Yeah, they tried, attempted a study where they wanted to see if they could translocate the species. So they grew, was propagated in a greenhouse, and they outplanted it at multiple sites, and the plants died within months. 100% mortality. You know, drought, herbivory, like multiple reasons why plants died. It was not a successful endeavor. And that same, those same researchers found from a greenhouse study that the plant is uniquely adapted to its home soil, that it's actually a soil specialist. And so arguing that you could place it elsewhere or give it another home is obviously, we have science to suggest otherwise.

[Naomi Fraga]

It really needs to be exactly where it is.

[Botanist]

It is exactly where it is for a reason. And in the Endangered Species act, we don't just save species, we save their habitat. That is implied or explicitly stated that it is the species and the habitats upon which they rely. And so that is a very important element to conserving species is ensuring that they have a home to live in. A species in a zoo or an aquarium is not saving the species is to say if they're extinct in the wild and there's no habitat for them to go back to, that's not a species, that's a museum specimen. It's an artifact.

[Naomi Fraga]

Do you think there's a chance that this lawsuit from center for Biological Diversity and the Western Shoshone and the Western Watersheds Project will work out and you'll be able to stop the mine from getting built?

[Botanist]

Well, we have the law, you know, the laws. Our findings are that this mine would cause irreparable harm to the species. And, you know, I have done a lot of analysis and there are a lot of flaws in the biological opinion that led to the no jeopardy opinion. And so I'm confident that a lawsuit would find that the species needed to be. Needs to be protected under the esa.

[Naomi Fraga]

You know, I guess the last thing would just be as we sit here by this pond and it's actually cooling down now, it's getting cloudy and cool breeze, and I think it might even rain. It was drizzling a little earlier. Why should people love the desert? I mean, what do you love about the desert? I think a lot of folks who haven't spent much time in the desert, and especially the Great Basin, which is unique in itself. What made you fall in love with. With places like this?

[Botanist]

Yeah, I mean, I think the desert, I mean, is magnificent for so many reasons, but just the sheer, just scale. And there's a hugeness to it. The landscape is so vast and you just feel. It really humbles you and puts your life into perspective that you're just this small person on the planet and you can see for miles and see acres of sagebrush or acres of creosote bush, and it goes on and on for miles. And there might be a mountain lion over there, and I can't even see it, but there's like. It supports tremendous life. And I oftentimes think about the plants, the plants that are uniquely adapted to the desert and the harsh conditions that they are subjected to. Many of our deserts are very cold in the winter. They're dry and they're hot. And so they're subjected to all these extremes and they have to adapt. They don't, you know, plants can't move. They have to live in a place that gets below freezing and 120 degrees, you know, and also maybe gets less than 1 inch of rain on occasion, you know, in a year. And, and how to survive this range of conditions and all the ways to, to deal with the harshness, you know, our perceived harshness, because we'd perish if we sat trying to sit and live in the desert. And so I just have an enormous amount of respect for the organisms that make this their home, their incredible resilience and ways in which life will find a way regardless of what nature might throw at it.

[Naomi Fraga]

And that's amazing to me. And it makes me think that one of the things I was thinking as we were leaning over and looking at the team's buckwheat is that they seem so small compared to like, the vastness of this entire landscape. But, I mean, one of the things that I'm understanding so much better from having spent this day together is that they're just like, they're such an important part of this landscape and this ecosystem. And what'd you say? There are about 20,000 of them. And it's hard to believe because they're so tiny and you almost miss them if you don't know that they're there. But they're so small, but they're so hardy and there are actually so many of them. And I mean, from what I understand from what you've told me today, this place wouldn't exist in quite the way that it exists without them. And, and that's, that's very, very cool because it seems so much bigger and more epic and yet this tiny little hardy plant is a, is a pretty important part of that.

[Botanist]

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and you know, it's captivated the hearts and imagination of so many people now that they know about it. It's probably one of the most observed plants on inaturalist out here. Everyone, people want to make a trek to come and, and get a glimpse of the buckwheat that is raising a ruckus and maybe sort of defiantly existing in the face of anticipated development. And it's just, it's a humble plant, you know, in the winter it doesn't really look like much.

[Naomi Fraga]

It did not can confirm.

[Botanist]

But you know, when it is doing, when it's living its best life from late May to mid June, it is the most vibrant thing out here. And for that window, it is the center of the universe, of the silver peak universe. And I think that's special.

[Naomi Fraga]

Naomi, thank you very much.

[Botanist]

Thank you.

[Sami Roth]

Thank you as always for listening to Boiling Point. Like I said earlier, this was part one of a two part episode. Next week we'll hear from Bernard Rowe, managing director of Ioneer. He'll make the case for the lithium mine and explain why he doesn't think the science supports a lot of what Fraga has to say. I hope you'll tune in for part two. Thank you for listening to Boiling Point. I'm your host, Sammy Roth. My producers are Mary Knoff and Jonathan Shifflett. Sound design and original music by Jonathan Shifflett. Elijah Wolfson is our editor. Denise Callahan is our studio manager. Ben Church is our production manager. Nick Norton is our engineer. Special thanks to LA Times Studio president, Anna Magzanian, President and Chief operating Officer of the Los Angeles Times, Chris Argentieri and executive editor of the Los Angeles Times, Terry Tang. Boiling Point is executive produced by Darius Derekshon and created by me, Sami Roth.

[Mary Knoff]

Hi, my name is Mary Knoff and I'm a producer on Boiling Point. We are here with Joanne o' Neill, director of customer programs at Clean Power Alliance. Hi, Joanne.

[Podcast Host]

Hello.

[Mary Knoff]

Clean Power alliance offers many customer programs to save on electricity bills and conserve energy. What is Power Response? How can listeners participate and are there any incentives for signing up?

[Podcast Host]

Yeah. So CPA offers various energy and cost savings programs to its customers. One of these programs is Power Response where participants can earn money for saving energy when energy demand is higher than expected. By saving energy and earning money during these events, Power response program helps increase the reliability of the power grid and lowers greenhouse gas emissions in the local community.

[Mary Knoff]

Well, thank you so much Joanne.

[Podcast Host]

Thank you. Appreciate it.

[Mary Knoff]

Take the next step in building a more resilient and clean, clean energy future for Southern California. To learn more, please visit CleanPowerAlliance.org PowerResponse Again, that's CleanPowerAlliance.org Powerresponse.

[Climate Dispatch Host]

Ever wonder where your water comes from? What it really means to break up with fossil fuels, or what life might look like in the year 2100? Our friends at the Sierra Club Angeles Chapter, in collaboration with Stranded Astronaut Productions, dive into those questions and more in a new podcast called the Climate Dispatch, launching April 22, just in time for Earth Day. Hosted by Taya Jeanette, the show brings together voices from across the climate movement to share stories, fears and hopes for the future all through the lens of Southern California. Guests include Nayeli Kobo, Tori Stevens, Aru Shainia J and Alison Shin. Plus, each episode features music from a local LA band. Listen to the Climate Dispatch at SC.org Climate Dispatch or wherever you get your podcasts. Streaming weekly starting April 22nd.

[Kate Cagle]

The destruction is nearly incomprehensible unless you see it for yourself.

[Botanist]

I found that my house was gone, as well as every house on my block.

[Kate Cagle]

How could this have happened and where do we go from here? LA is rebuilding. There is no doubt about that. Less clear is how we know the.

[Botanist]

Faster we can rebuild, the faster we can heal.

[Naomi Fraga]

There are kind of two separate conversations at a high level that I don't.

[Climate Dispatch Host]

Think we're having, that we could have.

[Naomi Fraga]

In this rush to kind of build things back as they were.

[Kate Cagle]

Kate I'm Kate Cagle, host of the new podcast Rebuilding LA from LA Times Studios. We will try to answer some of these questions as we assess the path forward. Rebuilding LA launches June 11. Find it wherever you get your podcasts.