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- [00:01]
IBM Representative
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Maggie
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- [01:29]
Maggie
Terms and conditions apply Gilbert King hello. It's great to see you.
- [01:33]
Gilbert King
Good to see you, Maggie.
- [01:34]
Maggie
I just finished listening to season two and I did not think it was possible to be better or equal to one. I wouldn't say better, but it is absolutely fantastic. And I have to say it is the most perfect epilogue to season one. I don't think I would have wanted to hear something different.
- [01:54]
Gilbert King
That's really nice. I don't know what to say to.
- [01:56]
Maggie
That, but yeah, well, I know you guys struggled a little bit.
- [01:58]
Gilbert King
Oh yeah.
- [01:59]
Maggie
Season twos are very difficult to make.
- [02:01]
Gilbert King
Yeah, it is. And you're trying to figure out what do people already know and what don't they know and why is this even worth doing? Does it just seem like we're tagging on a bunch of bonus episodes? But thanks for saying that because it didn't come together easily, that's for sure.
- [02:14]
Maggie
Absolutely. So I can feel the heart and care for these characters and I do want to talk about that a bit. But the first thing that is on most people's minds is how is Leo? What is his condition? How was he?
- [02:28]
Gilbert King
Yeah, well, you know Leo. We got in A really bad motorcycle accident in January, and he was confined to a bed for three months. Couldn't get out, couldn't bear weight, and it was pretty bad. He broke a lot of bones, his back, torn bladder, and it was horrific injuries. And his daughter was riding on back, and she had some pretty severe injuries, too. And so I was just down there recently, and he's finally out of bed, and he can get into a wheelchair now. He's still got some leg issues that he's trying to deal with, but overall, I would say he's markedly improved. His mood is much better because he can get out. He can actually drive a car now. He's got one good leg, and so he's able to do that, and that makes a big difference psychologically. And so he's healing. He didn't think he would play guitar again. His wrists were just completely smashed. He's had six surgeries on his hands, but he was playing guitar. He still got a cast on. He still got some more surgery.
- [03:21]
Maggie
Saw a picture with the cast and him holding.
- [03:23]
Gilbert King
Yeah, so he's like. That makes a big difference psychologically. So I think he's really made really solid strides to getting back to normal, even though I doubt he'll ever be fully 100%.
- [03:34]
Maggie
You didn't really feature his daughter in this season. Was there a reason for that?
- [03:38]
Gilbert King
No, not really. You know, it's just like she just didn't really have a role in this. You know, Chrissy was just barely in it, too. We sort of just pivoted away from Leo a little bit more into the other side, Jeremy side, and so it sort of limited the amount of people we could really concentrate on. It would be nice to give some more updates on the whole, you know, Bone Valley universe, I guess you'd say, and we may do that at some point soon. But this time we were just trying to be as tightly focused on Jeremy in this part of the story.
- [04:08]
Maggie
So listeners also really want to know about Jeremy and Leo's relationship now. Did they keep one? Have they spoken again?
- [04:17]
Gilbert King
They have not spoken again yet. You know, it's interesting. It's just a very difficult thing for Leo to do. And that's why I think it really worked well, is that it was so spontaneous. Jeremy had called me, and I just happened to be standing there with Leo, and I just spontaneously said, do you guys want to talk? And they did. But I'm not sure Leo would reach out to Jeremy and want to have further conversations with him. I think he'd be happy to meet with him, but it's just not something with Jeremy in prison. He's back in solitary confinement, and Leo's still struggling with health a little bit. We haven't even been thinking about that. But at some point, because Leo went through that CTP program, the transition program, he is able to go into the prisons again, and so he can actually visit Jeremy. And he said he wants to do that sometimes.
- [05:04]
Maggie
He does.
- [05:05]
Gilbert King
Yeah, he does. And Jeremy specifically said, you know, I hope someday I can sit face to face with Leo and apologize for what I've done. And I think they would both get something out of that experience. I know. I know both of them would. So I think it will happen at some point, but right now, there's just too much going on between both of them.
- [05:23]
Maggie
When we last heard from Jeremy, he was writing with Justin and he was wanting to do better. He was not in the hole at that time. He was out, and now he's back.
- [05:31]
Gilbert King
Yeah.
- [05:31]
Maggie
Can we. Can you talk about what happened?
- [05:33]
Gilbert King
You know, what it is, is he got transferred back to a facility where he'd been several years ago and where he had some incidents, including the stabbing incident. And so he went back there, and there were some people there that had grudges, and he didn't feel safe there. I think at one point, he'd gotten into a fight with an inmate. Wasn't really much of a fight. Jeremy told me the guy just beat him up. And so he sort of requested that he go back into solitary. He felt safer there. And, you know, Jeremy's not the most. I don't know how to describe this, but he's not the most thoughtful person when it comes to how to. How do I protect myself and get back in? And so he ended up having a conversation with an authority, and they said, well, it's not that easy. And then he just said, well, I'll hurt somebody and get back in. And by saying that, he got back in. So he's back in CM2. And so, I don't know, he's not really able to have visitors until he gets another, I think, another move up in the stratosphere of cms. But. But they are still writing to each other, and they do want to meet. Jeremy and his son Justin. They do want to meet. It's just Jeremy makes it a little difficult sometimes with his behavior in the prisons.
- [06:44]
Maggie
Yeah. Where is Justin's thought process at. At this moment?
- [06:48]
Gilbert King
You know, I think Justin's also got. He just moved. He changed jobs. He's got a new family, a new child. And so he's been a little bit like, this is my priority right now. But he told me, look, it's going to start clearing up right around now, and I want to start revisiting this again. So I think he will get back into it. And, you know, he's been writing, but he hasn't really made an effort to get up there yet, and he needs me for that, and I want to be there for that, too.
- [07:14]
Maggie
I really love. I haven't listened to any other podcast where, without beating you over the head with it, we're exploring male emotions and these things that men don't often talk about. And hearing, you know, Jeremy, this, like, big, tough guy, prisoner, murderer talk about these very intimate things. Can you just tell me a bit about your thought process when you guys decided to leave so much of that in.
- [07:42]
Gilbert King
Yeah, you know, it's just these are the kind of conversations I tended to have with him. He didn't really try to pull the tough guy routine with me. He sounded very broken early in the beginning when I started talking to him, he was just always in a really bad place. Just bad things were happening to him. And I think the marked difference I noticed is when I started sending him books, and he wanted to talk about the books he was reading. And, you know, he read a lot of Westerns and some James Patterson, Stephen King kind of stuff. But I would send him, you know, books that my kids were reading back in the day, like Game of Thrones and, and Hunger Games and things like that, just because I thought something more modern and I was familiar with these stories. And he talked about them in a way, like, you know, he really lamented the way the author was killing off the characters and in Game of Thrones and how much he liked, you know, the adventure part of Hunger Games. And I just felt like he was talking to me differently than he was in the beginning. And he would get emotional about things, and he would show this kind of empathy. And then he started speaking about his remorse and his great, you know, regrets in life, you know, disappointing his family and, and, you know, I, I, that's the way I've always talked with Leo. We talked about those kind of things, and, and he just fell right into it. And I didn't feel like I was forcing him to talk about more sensitive things. They were really coming from him. And I really enjoyed hearing that side of him. For some reason, it was just. It just made me see a different side of him. There were stories he would tell about his childhood sometimes that were just, like, made him laugh and, you know, you just have these recollections that maybe hadn't thought about in a while. And just to hear somebody in those dire conditions laugh about something, a memory really moved me emotionally. And so when he was willing to explore that, I just kept going there, and I don't regret it at all. You know, there's times where I get really emotional. You can hear me, and especially talking to Justin, you can hear me kind of sniffling in the background, but, like, that's just the way we roll.
- [09:42]
Maggie
I know I'm about to cry when thinking about the. At the end, where he says he'll claim his body.
- [09:47]
Gilbert King
Yeah.
- [09:49]
Maggie
You know that talking about death in prison is something. And this brings me to the next thing I want to talk to you about. When I was doing the Suave podcast, you know, that was one of the first things Swabby said when you get to prison is they ask you, where do you want your body sent? And so then to hear Jeremy talking about something that I knew was something they ask. And he's been thinking about that.
- [10:11]
Gilbert King
Yeah. And I think it's really bad for him because he's lost touch with his family.
- [10:15]
Maggie
Yeah.
- [10:16]
Gilbert King
And so for, like, over a decade, he just hasn't had any correspondence. He didn't know where they were. Like, he couldn't get anything from them. So I was giving him updates, and I think by talking about the people in his past, he was thinking about those connections again. And the idea of being, you know, buried in that prison cemetery up there, it's a pretty dismal place. I mean, literally, they have, you know, the prison's license plate tag prints up your name, your date, date of death, and your prison number, and that's it. And they're just out in the field, and it's just not really well maintained. And, you know, there's no flowers there. And I don't know what he's seen or heard of.
- [10:49]
Maggie
Potter's field, kind of.
- [10:51]
Gilbert King
It is a potter's field. And I just think the idea of just not being able to get out of that prison, even in death, just really depressed him. And. And he was talking about it a lot. And, you know, so then to hear Justin say, I'll claim him, I just. That kind of blew me away. I wasn't even expecting that.
- [11:06]
Maggie
So how do you navigate that line between your emotional involvement with these people and being able to tell the story objectively? I don't think you. Do you consider yourself a journalist?
- [11:21]
Gilbert King
Not really. I mean, I use journalism in it, but I never came up from that background. So, you know, I was just thinking about this just yesterday because, like, I don't know, like, I sent Jeremy books. I don't know if, like, if I worked for a, like a journal, like a, a newspaper, like the New York Times, I'd be allowed to do that.
- [11:36]
Maggie
You would not be allowed to do that.
- [11:38]
Gilbert King
That was a groundbreaking thing that enabled me to develop this sort of, you know, compassion, but also just this bond with Jeremy over books. And it kind of fit perfectly. I mean, I'm a writer, like, let's talk about books. And, and we talked about that, and I just feel like it opened up a great. And I would hate to not have that tool in my toolbox to do this kind of things. And so, like, I don't, I don't know, I feel like as long as I'm sort of being honest with the subject, being honest with myself and trying to respect listeners, you know, you don't want to be like, hey, I'm, you know, I'm also trying to get Jeremy out of prison. That's my goal here. You know, like, nobody wants Jeremy out of prison. He can't get out of prison. He's too violent. He has no self control. He's not someone you want out there. But then I just thought, well, what's the best thing you can hope for from Jeremy? And even if I was a prosecutor, I think the same answer would be, you know, that he just admits to what he did and maybe tries to ease the suffering of the victims and the families of victims that he's hurt. That's about the best you can hope for. And that's what he was doing. And so to me, it was like a win win. I've gotten letters from people in the, in the Florida corrections, high level people that, you know, have told me that you have no idea how good this is for the entire system to show that to establish connections with family, it's one of the most important things for prisoners. So we thank you. And I was like, I didn't expect to get that from the.
- [13:02]
Maggie
That's really interesting, actually. Can you elaborate on that a little bit? So when you were helping Jeremy connect with family, they said to you, this is good for everyone.
- [13:10]
Gilbert King
Well, they came out to me after they heard the podcast, okay. And one of the guys wrote me a letter. And in fact, he said, you know, I was the one that set up the field mission program in the Florida Department of Corrections. So I knew who Leo was. And I just want to say, like, I listen to your podcast and like that what you're doing by bringing families closer together, it improves behavior of people like Jeremy. And he was like, thankful for it. And, you know, I ended up talking to Leo about it and Leo says, I know that guy. Like, it's amazing. Like, this guy. I can't believe he wrote you that letter.
- [13:42]
Maggie
Wow.
- [13:42]
Gilbert King
So, you know, so I always felt like we were doing this conscientiously. We're not trying to expose the prisons as being, you know, these horrible, violent places. That's part of the story. But we're showing another side to it where, you know, someone's trying to get some kind of redemption and turn his life around in a positive way and that that can never be a bad thing.
- [14:02]
Maggie
Absolutely.
- [14:12]
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- [14:29]
Gilbert King
I get right back there and it's bad.
- [14:32]
IBM Representative
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- [16:17]
Maggie
So people want to know, is the state of Florida ever going to admit its wrongdoing in this? Do you think they're moving?
- [16:26]
Gilbert King
You know, I, I do believe that they will, as a general state, will admit that they got this wrong. I don't think the circuit where this case took place, I don't think they'll ever admit they got it wrong. But I do think that, you know, there's some powerful people in Leo's corner that are pushing for this. And I've gone through this before in Florida. When I wrote Devil in the Grove, I felt the momentum build and I felt politicians saying, we got to fix this. This is just embarrassing. And I think Leo's case is similar. I mean, anyone who looks into it, you know, pretty much that you got the wrong guy and that he should never have been convicted. But he did get convicted. But that needs to be corrected. And I have high confidence that this is going to happen. I don't know when, I don't know if it'll be with the same governor. I don't know how it's going to look, but I have no doubt that this is going to happen. And just because I think Florida understands, unlike a lot of other states, Florida understands that the integrity of the criminal justice system is also at play and it improves the integrity by addressing these past injustices to just say, you know what, that was wrong, we got that wrong. We're not just going to sweep it under rug and not admit we blew it. Let's just be honest about this. And I've seen them do it in the past, and so I have confidence that it's going to happen again.
- [17:39]
Maggie
This isn't necessarily like on record or whatever, but that's interesting about Florida because I feel like we never often cover case, innocence cases from there. And that makes me think that they're not really being proactive. Like, I don't know too many innocence cases down there that are high, you.
- [17:55]
Gilbert King
Know, you know, it's not, it's not that easy. I shouldn't really separate so much, but I just, I've seen it, I've seen it happen in the past, exonerations coming out of Florida and, and admitting they got it wrong. And it just, to me, it just, that's what I'm clinging to. Like, I've seen this happen in the past. I've been involved with some of them in the past, you know, but there are some really tricky innocence cases down There. If you talk to Seth Miller at the Innocence Project, he could probably tell you how frustrating the state is. But I'm only mostly looking through the lens of the cases I get involved. I do expect some kind of, you know, movement on this.
- [18:27]
Maggie
Yeah, I'm just thinking, like, when I think of states with, like, mass exonerations, I'm thinking like, Michigan. You see all the guys in Michigan and chic. I didn't think Florida was doing so much.
- [18:37]
Gilbert King
No, they're doing individual cases. I think, you know, in the cases I look at in Florida, for the most part, this is a generalization, but I think it's more like one prosecutor's office. It's not like the police. Granted, there are those kind of cases out there. But in the cases I've looked at, it seems to be the prosecutor's office who are really fighting for that conviction and maybe willing to bend some ethical rules to get there. Whereas, you know, even in the Leo's case, like, I don't think the police did a really bad job on it. I think they were, you know, they didn't have the manpower they needed. And there was a lot of unsolved murders happening, a lot of administrative complications, but I think mostly they did a pretty good job and they couldn't solve the case. And that's when the prosecutor came in and said, I'll fix it. And that's when everything started changing. All the evidence suddenly got beautiful and, you know, that the police, after 16 months, couldn't put that together. But prosecutor comes in, and all of a sudden the case changes. I know what happened there.
- [19:32]
Maggie
Yeah, yeah. No, we can talk about that when we talk about Graves County. Yes, but. So there was a moment in episode four for me, where it clicked, and I, you know, in my head I went, wow, this exact moment, it was when you were realizing how that there were other people Jeremy had murdered. And for me, it was so clear in that moment that this is why we have to get it right right away and convict the right person. Were you intending to show that? Because that's what I got was, if Jeremy, if Leo was not convicted, if this case stayed open and they pursued the right person, would these other people have died?
- [20:19]
Gilbert King
Yeah, I don't think so. And I honestly, like, they had Jeremy Scott's fingerprints in Michelle's car right after the murder. And there was a detective with the Polk County Sheriff's Office who investigated Jeremy for a prior murder about a year and a half earlier, and he got acquitted on it. So he knew that Jeremy was back on the streets in this part of Lakeland where Michelle disappeared. Right there. Why don't you take those unidentified fingerprints and just manually compare them to known violent suspects in the area. That would have led you right to Jeremy, and that would have been the end of it right there. But unfortunately, that didn't happen. So he goes on to kill Michelle, doesn't get caught. Six weeks later, he kills a cab driver, doesn't get caught, and a year after that, he kills another man in Lakeland. And then through this investigation, I'm meeting the family members of these, you know, the victims. And it's just heartbreaking to see the trauma that they carry and just.
- [21:17]
Maggie
And none of it needed to happen if they just. If they just arrested the right person.
- [21:21]
Gilbert King
Right. And to be honest with you, like, in these cases, like, they had forensic evidence that would link Jeremy, and so just. It's amazing to me that they couldn't put it together and take him off the streets. And when you just see the ripple effect of, like, you know, even in Leo's case, like, Leo's family, Michelle's family, just, like, dozens of victims out there that, you know, if he'd have been caught and taken off the streets, none of this would have happened. And so, like, you know, you don't hear the police ever talking about that or the prosecutors ever talking about that. You know, by not doing their jobs.
- [21:57]
Maggie
Right, they have blood on their hands. Literally. Literally.
- [22:01]
Gilbert King
And, you know, some of it, I get it, there's unsolved murders out there that are tricky, but to me, these weren't tricky. I mean, he left fingerprints at every murder he committed. And so, like, well, what's the problem here?
- [22:12]
Maggie
Listeners want to know, is Judge Cupp still involved?
- [22:15]
Gilbert King
You know, Judge Cupp is still involved. He's very much, you know, Leo's attorney. And, yes, he's doing a lot. We've done some speaking events where we go out together and speak, and he's really itching to get more involved. And like, judge, you stepped off the bench to help Leo. Like, there's not much more you can really do. You really. You led me to this case to begin with. And then you quit your job, you had years left on the bench to be Leo's lawyer. You've done everything you need to do. But he just feels like he cannot rest until Leo is exonerated. And, you know, I kind of respect that in him. He's. He's got a real bulldog in him.
- [22:48]
Maggie
You know, I love that. That's great. So how can we support Leo and Is there anything else you want us to know about Leo or anything going on in the Bowtie Valley World?
- [22:59]
Gilbert King
Yeah, the only thing you know, Leo does have a GoFundMe page out there. Because of his injuries, he can't work. And so he was working as a mechanic in an auto shop, and, like, those days are gone. So he may have an assistant pastor position that's coming his way, which I think he'd be ideal for. He's a great speaker, but, you know, I just think. Stay tuned to the Bone Valley World. You know, the time may come where we need petitions and we need support, and we're just waiting for that day to come.
- [23:29]
Maggie
Have Justin and Jamie listened to the podcast? What do they think about it?
- [23:33]
Gilbert King
Yeah, you know, and I was really sensitive about this because, you know, it was one of the things that made this story so hard is that once Jamie agreed to talk to us, what were we going to really ask her? And it's about her relationship with Jeremy. Probably the worst two years of her life, really. You know, she's.
- [23:49]
Maggie
How old was she then?
- [23:50]
Gilbert King
She was 17 and 18. And she gets hooked up with Jeremy, who's the same age. And, you know, Jeremy's in and out of jail and, you know, just constantly being violent on the streets and. And she's kind of this kid who's like, you know, a good student. She, you know, she's got a house. She's not homeless like Jeremy, yet. She's kind of interested in this world of a new boyfriend. And it's Jeremy, though, you know, and so there's a lot of, you know, abuse that she suffered and a lot of, like, trauma. And so that was really a hard thing to talk to her about and just make her bring that all out again. And so, you know, I was really concerned about how she might take it because, you know, some of it is just so upsetting. She doesn't talk to anybody about it. But I did talk to her after it came, and she was. She, like, begrudgingly conceded that she did feel some empathy for Jeremy after all this. And she was. She said, I'm really proud of this way you handled the story. And she goes, I just think, like, you did a really good job with this, and you were very fair, and you didn't. You didn't sugarcoat anything, and you didn't shy away from anything. So she was. She was very fine with it, and she just really wants to meet Leo one day. And that's, like, what everybody tells me. Justin, on the other hand, has listened to Five episodes. And I think he emotionally is so moved by it that he told me, he goes, I just. I'm not ready to listen to the last episode. I told him, you know, you're gonna have to, like, find a quiet place and get away from people and listen to. Listen to it privately. Because it might be a lot for you. You. Because it was a lot for us just working on it.
- [25:22]
Maggie
Sure.
- [25:22]
Gilbert King
And I haven't heard back from on episode six, so that was a couple weeks ago. So, you know, I think. I think he's going to be fine. He really. He was just so impressed with, like, Mary and some of the other people in the story who were looking out for his father, including Oscar, who was the, you know, one of the inmates who was looking out.
- [25:41]
Maggie
Have him and Mary spoken?
- [25:43]
Gilbert King
Yes. They continue to speak. They have a really sweet relationship. I mean, the letters and you've heard them, but, like, she's just like this motherly figure to Jeremy, and he really does allow her to play that role in his life. And he also is concerned about her and asks about her. And it's like, that was another side of Jeremy that I'd never seen before. Somebody was like, you know, talking to Mary and telling. Make sure she takes her medicines. Make sure you don't work too hard, get some rest. You know, falling into these. This kind of role, like a concerned son. But, yeah, and Mary and I have talked about it. Like, you know, I said, look, you've been doing a lot for this, and I don't want to. People are writing to me, and they want to talk to Jeremy. They want to give him money for his canteen. And do you want me to just keep forwarding these to you? And she's like, I'm in this for life. Like, I'm in it. And it's like that told me everything I needed to know about Mary. Like, she's not. She's not gonna abandon him. Like, she's gonna be there for as long as he needs her.
- [26:43]
Maggie
It's amazing.
- [26:44]
Gilbert King
Yeah. And I think that was, like, the beauty of the second season was just, you know, you're really dealing with a really dark story, but on the other hand, you're seeing the best of people caring about each other. And, you know, it was really Justin's words. He said, people coming together, caring about people. And I really couldn't have put it, you know, better and didn't even see that ever coming in the story, but it was from Justin and that. So that meant a lot to me to just hear it from him.
- [27:09]
Maggie
Absolutely. So has. You know, you mentioned that people are writing a lot of letters. They want to talk to Jeremy. Has anyone else kind of really stepped in like Mary has?
- [27:18]
Gilbert King
They haven't really stepped in to do things, but they want to. They want to help him. And I was kind of surprised because it's been mostly women, but there's been some men in there that have been moved enough to say, look, I don't. I just feel bad for this guy. I don't want to see him get out of prison. I don't want to be his pen pal like Mary. But I. I just feel bad. This guy's, you know, undergone so much in his life, and so I just want to give him something and make his life easier. So. Yeah, and there's been quite a few. You know, honestly, I would say more people have reached out to me about Jeremy than Leo, believe it or not. You know, I think it's probably because. Because Leo has a support system already, and Jeremy doesn't really have much of that, so they don't really need to feel the need to step in and help Leo, but they support him. But. But, yeah, I'm really surprised by it. And I've had, like, prosecutors and cops even comment on it, saying, you know, I didn't think I could feel bad for this guy, but I really do.
- [28:12]
Maggie
I think it's really groundbreaking. I mean, I think, you know, there's been other shows and stuff. Like, one of my favorite shows is I Am a Killer. It's on Netflix, and I've even written some of those people on that show. I just felt so compelled by how tragic their lives were. And, yes, they're a murderer, but, yeah, I did the same thing. I wrote a guy and said, I just saw your story. I just wanted to let you know that I give a shit about you.
- [28:35]
Gilbert King
You know, you're a human being.
- [28:37]
Maggie
Sometimes that's all it takes is to just let someone know that someone cares about you.
- [28:41]
Gilbert King
Right. And I think, you know, just those notes, I mean, even if they're not going to contribute any money, and I understand that's a. That's a.
- [28:47]
Maggie
Just to say, I hear you, because it's. You're meant in prison to be locked away and forgotten about.
- [28:53]
Gilbert King
Right.
- [28:54]
Maggie
Right. So to tell them, I. I heard you. I heard your story means so much.
- [29:01]
Gilbert King
I know it's meant a lot to Jeremy, too. You know, at one point, he wrote me a letter, and he goes, you know, I'm just going to tell you everything because people seem to listen to you and he felt like he just. Nobody listened to him. You know, they. They abuse him in court, they call him a liar, and, you know, everything. And, you know, he is. For the last four years, since I. He's been trying to do the right thing. He feels horrible that Leo's in prison for a crime that he committed, and he recognizes that the family, Michelle's family, is, like, suffering because of his actions. And, you know, and also, he's let his family down, and he's just recognizing that if I just tell the truth, it's bringing my family back into my life, and it's actually helping a guy who shouldn't be in prison. And so I think people hear that and recognize that there's not much else he can do, but that's one big step towards doing the right thing that should be commended. And I think he feels that. And so I feel really good that he feels some kind of, you know, relief and satisfaction that he's done the right thing. One time, he asked me to send because he can't listen to the podcast, but people were saying things to him about it. So he was. He was hearing about it secondhand, and he knew I interviewed him, and he asked if I could send pages from what he'd said to me, and I sent them, and he said, I don't ever want to see those pages again. They're so painful to read. But I just wanted to have something that showed I did the right thing once in my life. And I'm like, boy, you know, how can you really just argue with something like that? So it's from his heart, you know.
- [30:29]
Maggie
Do you think there's other things he has not admitted to?
- [30:33]
Gilbert King
Yeah, there's one case that I, you know, and I'm really slow with this stuff. I've known him for five, four years, and I'm really waiting for the right time. Kind of want to do it in person. But he has the very first murder that he got charged with. He pled not guilty, and they put on a defense that it was somebody else who did it, which is not true. But he hasn't fully, fully, to me, confessed to that. Those details that he's confessed to other people saying that he got away with that one, but to me, he hasn't really explored it yet. And I kind of stopped at that point because I do want to see him in person and have that conversation in person. You know, I don't want to. It's a tricky thing when you're doing this kind of thing. Like, let's go back to another really awful thing you did. I try to temper that with, you know, conversations with about his family and the positive things and mostly with the later murders that I was investigating. But I do want to go back and revisit that because I think it's really important that he talks to me about it in a truthful way, but just sort of take accountability for it. But he's got a lot of bitterness about the person who he accused of doing this. This person showed up at his sentencing and was gloating and was making faces at him in the courtroom. And so he's angry at that guy. So we have to get past that anger phase to get to the truth. I think.
- [32:04]
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- [34:10]
Maggie
Your relationship with Justin, it feels like you're this kind of father figure in his life, and he's learned so much about himself. Do you. Do you think of it that way?
- [34:22]
Gilbert King
You know, I didn't think about that until you just mentioned that, because I don't know about you, but, like, I just see everybody's the same age, and so I don't realize I'm a lot older than him. I am a father figure in a lot of ways, so that totally makes sense. But, yes, you know, he would sometimes look at me and just like, can you help me? Like, those kind of eyes, Like, I can't do this alone. I need help. And, you know, just even writing to his father was difficult. But I gotta say, you know, I did help him with things, and I try to, you know, just respect how difficult this might be. It's. I mentioned this, like, it's not like a 23andMe kind of reunion. This is a guy that, you know, is a murderer and son doesn't know what's true. He's heard all these stories about his father killing possibly 11 people, and he wasn't really aware of, you know, who his father was. He'd only heard rumors. Nobody talked about it. And so part of the whole premise of season two was that Jamie found it easier to talk to me and Kelsey about this than she did talking to Justin about it. And so she said, I'll tell you everything, and then he can learn it through you. So there was this really weird conduit thing that we used.
- [35:32]
Maggie
Did you feel uncomfortable, your position in that? Like, I guess that goes back to my question about your role as a storyteller journalist.
- [35:42]
Gilbert King
It felt really awkward because I felt like, you know, there's a lot of things that can go wrong here, and I don't want to bring him into a situation where it just. Jeremy's. The chaos of Jeremy's life kind of takes over, and he's hurt by this. And so we've talked a lot about that, like, trying to prepare him. And I think he had a very realistic view of who his father was. And that was just really me just trying to help him understand that if you want to reach out to your father, that's fine, but you need to know who he is. And I gotta tell you all this stuff first, and then you can decide if you still want to go forward with this. Yeah, it's an awkward thing. I Don't really. I've never been in these kind of situations before, so I was really just using intuition a lot. How would I want to be treated in this situation? What do I think could be useful? What's kind of off bounds that I shouldn't be getting into and just making sure everyone felt comfortable proceeding in this way. And ultimately we did. We just found a way to make it work in a way that I was very comfortable with, you know, ethically getting a little more involved than most journalists would get involved in it. But I just felt like this was necessary to the story. It felt more like a documentary where you're embedded with the people. You know, we're not taking sides about, like, guilt or innocence in this point. It's just like, here's a human being who's suffering. He is trying to help me with some of the cold cases that were unsolved that he's claimed responsibility for, but there was really no issue with that. He was very happy to talk about that stuff with me about it. And so I didn't feel like. I didn't ever feel like I was, like, abusing my position, like, okay, I'm sending you those books, so start giving me murders. You know, it never really got that. It was always. I felt like we were always very honest. And there were times you just say, I don't want to talk about this anymore, and we'd stop. This is respecting those kind of things because it's more important about people's feelings and their mental health then I think the story.
- [37:32]
Maggie
What would you say to people who, you know, say, you're giving a murderer platform? What about victims? We don't give a shit about this guy. Why are we hearing a whole story about a murderer?
- [37:44]
Gilbert King
Yeah, I mean, I. And I. Those are questions I ask myself, you know, like, why are we doing this? What. What are we going. What are we doing? And it wasn't until a long time we were into this that we were still thinking, I don't know if we have this. It doesn't seem to be going in an interesting place. And then a few things started to develop mostly around Justin and Justin's mood and willingness to go further. But, you know, I feel like I'm not really just trying to create sympathy for Jeremy because that's not really what I'm trying to do. You know, I am trying to get him charged for murders, actually. You know, and he knows that. He told me I can be charged for this, but that's okay, let's keep talking. So he knows I'm talking to law enforcement and that my ultimate thing is to see him charged for the murders he committed. You know, with that said, I don't want to see him, like, suffer hardship because of, you know, my investigation. You know what, Granted, he's never getting out of prison, so I don't think they're going to try him. To be honest with you. I think he would sign something and. But, you know, he can get transferred back to a county for three months, come off his meds, be placed in a psych cell and, you know, last time that happened with one of Leo's cases, like, the sheriff's deputies, like, beat the hell out of him and like, I don't want to have that on my conscious, like, oh, all my work investigating. And now Jeremy gets put in a really bad situation that leads to harm. So I have, you know, conflicted feelings about it. But, you know, the right thing to do is he needs to be held accountable for the murders that he's committed, that he's admitted to, committed to committing. And the people who have been, you know, tossed under the bus, like Dan Odie and Leo, need to be fully exonerated. And so, you know, that's sort of the position I'm in. But I don't. I never felt like I was giving him a platform to speak about because he didn't really have any issues. He was just really, just talking to me and I don't think he's really trying to get anything out of anybody except he wants to be. Meet his family. He wants family in his life.
- [39:43]
Maggie
For me, I feel like the importance of this season, again, just shows that I. I think it kind of shows why it's important to understand Jeremy because then we know how we got here, right? We know in some cases how this quote, monster is made and by understanding that, we can prevent that perhaps.
- [40:06]
Gilbert King
Yeah, and I think that's really important. You know, like, there was something that the judge said of Jeremy when he first got arrested for murder at age 15, he dealt with Jeremy, like, a lot in the juvenile system. And he just said, I don't think anybody's surprised to see Jeremy Scott here in this court charged with murder. Like, there was nothing anybody could do about that. Like, he'd been put in juvenile detention facilities.
- [40:27]
Maggie
Would anyone have intervened? Like, like, was there a point in his life someone could have intervened and we wouldn't be, er.
- [40:34]
Gilbert King
I think it would have been asking a lot. Like, he literally was homeless at 9. He was out on the streets committing crimes at age 9. His first arrest was at 10, I think, you know, and also he had. He had, like, a traumatic head injury, which also affected him. So he's got, like, a low IQ, like in the 70s. He's got brain damage. You know, he was abusing drugs and alcohol like, before he was a child teenager, and his family really wasn't there for him. So I don't know who else would have been there at the point. He didn't really do very well in school, was in and out of school. I think there could have been things like if somebody in a juvenile detention center had come across him and maybe taken some interest or maybe a foster family. But it just seemed like this inevitable path that he was leading towards as he was getting more and more violent, more and more desperate on the streets. But, yes. Could something have been done? Yes. Social programs, you know, those are things I don't really feel qualified to talk about those. That part of the system. But I recognize it's something that you got to give kids some kind of chance, even people like Jeremy, because the damage that they can do. Just go and ask the dozens and dozens of victims of his violence, do they think something could have been done or should have been done? The first thing they'll say is, yes, that would have been great if it could have prevented this there. Because Justin had grown up constantly hearing, you know, you're not your father. You're not your father. You know, when he. When he had a temper tantrum or something like that, he worried about, am I carrying the DNA of a person who's killed a bunch of people? And so he was afraid of that. And, you know, at the end, Jamie sort of acknowledged. She said, you know, Jeremy had a charming side. He had a sweet side. He had compassion, which, you know, if you listen to the podcast, you can feel it. He does have it. You can see it. He's not the monster that, you know, he's done evil things, but he's not the monster you imagine when you think of.
- [42:31]
Maggie
Leo even said that, too. He wanted a villain. He wanted someone he could just, like, see, then hate. And that's not him.
- [42:36]
Gilbert King
Right? And the first time he saw Jeremy, he's like, it's not that guy. You know, he felt sorry for him. And I think a lot of people do feel sorry for him, but. But Jamie, you know, finally acknowledge that, you know, he is his father, but he's the good side of Jeremy. And, you know, having spent a lot of time on the phone and talking to Jeremy, I did see that good side. There was no doubt. Like, I'm sure there are people who don't have a good side, but he's not one of them. He's remorseful. All the. All the remorse that the state expects Leo to show. Well, Leo's got a claim of innocence. He's never shown the remorse. Jeremy's showing that remorse all the time. He constantly talks about the victims and the people he's hurt, and he gets emotional about it. And I think, you know, Jamie saying that made Justin sort of acknowledge it and accept it. And, you know, he said, I am my father. I look exactly like my father. I have the same eyes. We have a very similar voice. I was listening to the tape of Jeremy as a teenager confessing to police, and, you know, he sounded exactly like Justin. It was really weird. And to hear, like, Jamie talk about that, saying, you know, as he grew up, seeing him, like, wondering, oh, my God, I get chills because it looked like I was looking at Jeremy. And you can imagine somebody like that who's been, like, you know, thrown into a police car, you know, accused of murder and, you know, beaten by Jeremy and all these things, like, it would be traumatic. But for her to acknowledge, you know, that Justin carried the good side of Jeremy. And I think that's, you know, hopefully that's Jeremy's greatest legacy, is that his son went on to be this beautiful person. And I really mean this sincerely. I call him a kid. Everybody calls him a kid. He's 35, but he feels like a kid a lot of times when you're talking to him. And, you know, he just says some really profound things about forgiveness and acceptance that, you know, he's. There's a lot of people in this story that can make me cry, but he's one of them automatically just to be. He shows the same kind of grace that I think Leo shows in a lot of this story. And I'm just really honored to know him, because when I first met him, I thought, who's this crazy kid? Now it's Jeremy Scott's son who's gonna reach out to me. And he was nothing like I expected. I really think so highly of him, and I love talking to him and catching up with him. And he's a hugger, and it's just, like, such a sweet thing to see him around.
- [44:59]
Maggie
He looks like Jeremy. I was not expecting him to look like Jeremy.
- [45:02]
Gilbert King
Yeah, he really looks a lot like him.
- [45:04]
Maggie
I have to see a picture. Gilbert King, you are doing the Lord's work, so thank you.
- [45:08]
Gilbert King
Well, thanks, Maggie. It's always a pleasure talking to you.
- [45:11]
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- [46:21]
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Gilbert King
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Gilbert King
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Maggie
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Gilbert King
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Maggie
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Gilbert King
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