B (2:58)

Starting early? No. You know, I just. I remember so many times showing up at Hardy and just sitting across for you and just feeling the shame that you would come in in your blues and be escorted by a guard. And at the end of this conversation.

B (3:14)

We get to walk out to the parking lot and go off on our lives. And you go back into your cell. And I think the thing that really got to me the most was that I knew from talking to Chrissy that we're bringing up the most horrific moments of your life. And we go and walk out into the car and drive home and have a meal, and you go back into your cell and have to live with the aftermath of. Of this trauma that you've just recounted. And I always felt bad about that, and I don't. How did you deal with that? Yeah.

C (3:45)

You know, and I appreciate you saying that, because I remember those moments myself. And for me, from my end, I would get back to the cell, and while it was difficult to relive those moments and keep going over it, I had a great hope that something would be different in the telling of it this time, because it was you. You know, I mean, you're Gilbert King. I mean, really. And that hope is what helped me get through another day, another week, another year. You know, and when we started this in 2018, when you came on board, we were talking about a book. You remember that?

B (4:24)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn't know what a podcast was.

C (4:26)

And then you come with a podcast, and you remember. Do you remember telling me we were going to do the podcast?

B (4:31)

I kind of do.

B (4:34)

What did you say? I were exact words.

C (4:36)

What is a podcast? And then when you described it to me, I said, that sounds like AM radio. I had no reference for it. You know, it's 36 years. Well, at that time, 32. 31 years in prison and had no reference for a podcast. Never experienced it.

B (4:55)

Yeah.

C (4:55)

And. And yet Bone Valley turned into one of the most incredible experiences of my life in getting to know you. You know, some of my favorite books. You know, you write in a genre that I really enjoy. Anyway, so you're the author of Devil in the Grove. You got a Pulitzer Prize for that. Beneath the Ruthless Son. I read both of those, and one that wasn't as well known, that was really an emotional book for me was the Execution of Willie Francis. Yeah. And so I kind of got a feel for what you write about. And so I'm just wondering. And. Because this is all dealing with civil rights stuff, Wrongful convictions, wrongful deaths in a system of justice, and I'm wondering what it is about that subject that was so important to you as a person?

B (5:50)

Yeah, you know, I think it's just one of these things where from a very early age I remember being drawn to books like Count of Monte Cristo, you know, like injustices, wrongfully accused people. I just felt like the passion of the narrators. Papillon was another book I remember reading as a young person, Wrongfully convicted, sentenced to Devil's Island. And this, it is kind of an adventure story in some respect. But at the heart of these stories, it's about a man losing his freedom. And for some reason that just really resonated with me even at an early age. I grew up at a time, well, we're kind of close in age, but watching Roots on television and just realizing like, this is part of American history and like, I didn't know anything about this and just being drawn by those injustices, it's always affected my sense of the stories I was drawn to. And so most of the work I was doing was mostly set in the pre civil rights movements, the 40s and the 50s. So, you know, when Judge Scott Cupp came to me and gave me that card, I was not thinking about, let me try and do something in the current day. I really felt like the past was where I wanted to stay. And, you know, he told me about it. I was intrigued because he's a judge and he's saying, there's an innocent man out there who's still in prison. And, you know, it's hard to just say, no, I won't look into it. I think I mentioned this in the book that, you know, I kind of wanted to get him off the phone. But the easy way to do it was say, all right, I'll look at the transcript. And, you know, that started the whole process for me. I started reading. I'm like, how is this stuff happening now? I knew it happened in the 40s and 50s, but how is this stuff I'm reading about happening now? And that's when I sort of said, you know, I'm going to look into this more. I said to Judge Cop, what's the next step? And I remember he said, I think it's time you meet Leo. And he kind of said it to me in a way, like, you're in for something. You're in for something. Where do you meet this guy? And I didn't believe him, to be honest with you. I'm always very skeptical, but that was the way I experienced it. As soon as we met and as soon as I started hearing your story and sitting across from You. It affected me in a way that I really was drawn. I remember there was something you said. So this is the story. You remember those words?

C (8:00)

Yeah. This is not going to change. I'm going to talk about that in a minute because I want. I want to talk about our relationship, but sure. And thank you for that, really. So would you say. Well, what would you say is different about this book in comparison to the others that you have written?

B (8:20)

There's a sense of urgency that comes to a story when the people you're dealing with are sitting across from you and you can see the pain and you can feel the injustice. It's one thing going through the documents and reading trial transcripts and. And appellate records and newspaper accounts from 70 years ago, and, you know, as painful as those are, but there's something else entirely. Sitting across from a man who is in his prison blues and is going to go right back into his cell when you're done, and recognizing that you're reading about an injustice and this man's life is still affected by that, it just hits you in a very different way, the immediacy of it, the urge to sort of say, and I know I said this to you later on in the process, after I fully investigated your story, I said, I don't know what this is going to do for you, how it's going to change your case or your life, but I can promise you this. We are going to change the narrative. And I believe that that is the one thing I could promise you, that the narrative is going to be different because everything I looked into is wrong. And I could feel that. And I knew I could only make you that promise that I'm going to change the official story here. I don't know if it's going to help you. Frankly, I didn't think. I didn't think you'd ever get out. I'll just be honest.

C (9:35)

Well, obviously it did help the narrative changing and getting across to so many people, including people who have the ability to make a difference in my life. I don't think I would be here without just the way you told the narrative. You know, and while you're saying that, I'm thinking about this, this is pretty emotional for me, too. You had some really good help along the way. And a woman you mentioned in the book who is a dear friend to both of us now, her name was Kelsey Decker, and she did a lot in this thing. And I know the book explains a lot of what she does. I want to ask you about what her emotional response was to this going further. I know she had a. A big response in it.

B (10:17)

Well, you know, she started out as a researcher, and so she was ahead of me because I was working on other projects, and she. I remember her going through the transcript, going through the appellate records, and. And just the intensity of somebody young who's just drawn to this story and just saying, you have to see this. Look at what they did, look at what the state did, look what the police did here. Like, I could feel her energy and her commitment to this, and it kind of drove me a little bit, because as someone who's seen a lot more and been studying these kind of cases for decades, just to see how young people are really affected by injustice, it's kind of contagious. And it affected me in a way, like I was feeding off that. She was just overwhelmed by the injustice of this. And it reminded me of how I felt when I was younger, when I would read these stories, and I could just see how much time she was putting into the research and just pointing these things out to me and wanting to talk about them, and it was really contagious. And it really helped my enthusiasm because having someone to just share this with and just to be able to talk to constantly and work through all these different things that we were learning about your case that weren't brought out in trial, that weren't brought up, and. And here we were seeing it. It was a tremendous asset to be able to work with someone who was as committed as I felt I was.

C (11:33)

Right. Yeah. And she was definitely that because I remember being interviewed by her, how special those moments was for both of us. And specifically because she wasn't much older than Michelle.

B (11:44)

Yeah.

C (11:45)

You know, and. And I felt her connection to that, and I think it was very well covered in one of the Bone Valley episodes and one of the most emotional times of me because it was hard for me to listen to Bone Valley. And here in Kelsey, after you guys had been in at the Polk County Sheriff's office reviewing evidence, and you got in the car and she breaks down crying and was relating to Michelle and the evidence and everything. It was just one of the most. It's choking me up now, even thinking about it. I mean, and I had such a deep. And have such a deep connection with Kelsey because of that, and she brings so much validation to the innocence claim.

B (12:28)

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And everything about that was real and raw, and we really didn't know what we were doing while we were investigating. We just kept the microphone on all the time. And those are just things that came out. And we just decided we had to just keep recording and just, we'll see what we get from this, because we really didn't know what we were doing outside of the interviews. But I do remember that moment, because at this point point, Michelle was always portrayed as the victim, and she was a nameless victim. And by this point, we'd met you, we'd met Michelle's brother, and she became a living, breathing person in our story. And you sort of want to honor that in a way that reflects a human being and not just a trope or a character who's no longer alive. You know, she lost her life at 18. What was that life like? And I think we felt a real responsibility to portray that in an honest way. And I think one of the most honest ways is just looking at the evidence and seeing all the evidence of their. Their Michelle's last moments on Earth, and it's starting to fill in a story. And then you see these photographs, and, you know, the photographs just. I know you've seen them. I. They're just.

B (13:44)

If you don't know the person or you don't know anything about their lives, there's a numbness to it. But when it's somebody you've been talking to, family members, people who loved her, it hits you in a hard way. I felt it, too. Kelsey felt it in a much more raw way.

C (13:59)

Absolutely.

B (14:00)

Yeah.

C (14:00)

And I definitely appreciated that. And she is forever endeared to my heart because of it. Let's talk about the book a little bit, if you don't mind. And. And one of the questions I think listeners would want to ask. We've had a lot of downloads on the Bone Valley podcast, I think nine episodes, and then the bonus episodes that went with it.

A (14:24)

Right.

B (14:25)

Covering you.

C (14:26)

Covering.

B (14:26)

Right. Release from prison. Yeah.

C (14:28)

Right.

B (14:28)

Goes right through.

C (14:29)

And it covers a lot of the journey from Michelle's murder forward to that release. Why a book now?

B (14:39)

Originally, when we first thought about podcasts, I thought it made sense. You're here. You are such a dynamic storyteller. Your voice, it was just something I wasn't used to. And I just. I remember thinking, people need to hear Leo speaking about his case and his conviction and hopes for release and exoneration. It was powerful just being inside a prison with you for must have been a dozen times. But I felt like there was so much that we couldn't really cover once I started spending years on this. There's parts, especially like in the trial, we don't have audio for that stuff. And. And there's some really dramatic scenes that take place in the trial that I felt like in the podcast, I just have to be reading transcript. And it didn't feel as powerful as a recreating the scene in a book. I felt like I wasn't done with it. And there was so much more that I wanted to add to it. So much more of the research that I couldn't really use in the podcast, but it was there. It was. What I'm used to is writing books, and now I have this in front of me. I have these voices and these stories. I just felt like there was so much more to tell, and that's what I really wanted. I think with listeners, they're going to get a lot of new material, but I wanted people that read books who don't listen to podcasts. I want them to experience this narrative. And already it's kind of interesting to see, like, early copies going out there and people who have never heard of the podcast and reading this and just hearing their reaction to your story. I knew it was there. I kind of resisted a book for a while, but eventually I was like, no, this has to be. There's so much more here, so much more we couldn't cover. And also, like, I just have sensibilities. As someone who writes narrative nonfiction, like, this feels like my natural story. Podcasting never feels natural to me. I hate my voice. I really don't like it. Others seem to not mind it, but I just really wanted to write the book. So the audiobook is a really good compromise because I get to read it.

C (16:29)

That's great. Well, just so you know, I've heard a lot of people comment on your voice on the podcast, and that's one of the cells for.

B (16:35)

It puts them to sleep.

C (16:36)

They say, no, I didn't hear that. You might have heard other things. The book does. And I was privileged to be able to read an early copy of it and the emotional response that I had to it, both in giggling in the places where you were critiquing something I wore, etc. Or something like that. It was very funny. I'd laugh, and my wife would say, what now? What did you. And I'd read it to myself.

B (16:59)

I always wondered about that. I know there's one part in the book where I describe you, and this comes from you, Leo, because you talk about having this mismatched suit that you're borrowing, like a jacket from your dad.

C (17:09)

Oh, my God.

B (17:10)

Pants from Dave the bass player.

C (17:12)

Yeah.

B (17:12)

None of them fit because you don't own a suit. And now you've got this haircut that they've given you in prison. I think you remember saying something. It's not like something you get at super cuts. Right, right. And. And just feeling like a clown sort of showing up in front of a jury, popping lifesavers, not realizing your life is on the line and you're being judged and not having any sensibility of that. And I remember seeing this one photograph of you sitting next to your attorney, Jack Edmond, and you kind of look like one of those 80s magicians, you know, like your hair is not quite right. There's. The lapels on your suit are kind of big. I was like, this guy looks like a magician. I'm gonna run away from him. And I thought, man, Leo's got to read this. I wondered if you'd be offended. I did.

C (17:53)

And that's one of the. Definitely one of the places where I giggled. And my wife asked, what it? What is it? And I read it to her. Yeah, thank you for that. It's bringing humor to a. A story that otherwise is extremely emotionally sad for me.

B (18:05)

Yeah. I mean, there's not a lot of humor at all.

C (18:07)

Right.

B (18:07)

But.

C (18:07)

Right. But you covered that really, really well. I think even listeners of the podcast need to read this book.

A (18:15)

I hope you enjoyed this interview. I can't tell you how nice it was to be speaking to Leo in a studio instead of inside a prison. In the coming weeks, we'll be releasing more excerpts from the Bone Valley audiobook right here. Next week's excerpt will include some behind the scenes moments that from our investigation into Jeremy Scott's early years, as well as background from one of the most talked about scenes from the podcast. And if you still can't get enough bone, the book is available in stores everywhere and the audiobook version can be found wherever you download your audiobooks. Please see the show notes for details. Thanks very much for listening and please keep an ear out for our next installment of Bone Valley. From the mic to the page.

A (19:07)

The next four excerpts to be released after this first one will be available ad free exclusively on lava for good, plus on Apple Podcasts.

D (19:17)

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E (19:45)

Book now@vrbo.com Ah, greetings from my bath festive friends. The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four. No fees, no interest. I used it to get this portable spa with jets. Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body. Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal. Save the offer in the app ends 12:31 see paypal.com promoter points can be redeemed for cash and more. Paying for subject to terms and approval. PayPal, Inc. And MLS 910457 hey audiobook lovers, I'm Kalpen.

B (20:19)

I'm Ed Helms.

E (20:20)

Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Earsay, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club.

A (20:29)

Each week we sit down with your favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very special guests to discuss the latest and.

E (20:36)

Greatest audiobooks from audible. Listen to Earsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow Earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today.