Gilbert King presents: Bone Valley Season 3 | Graves County

Summary

Bone Valley Season 3 | Graves County: A Detailed Summary

Introduction

In the latest installment of Bone Valley, titled "Graves County," host Gilbert King introduces Lava for Good's newest investigative series. This season delves into the harrowing case of Jessica Curran, a young mother whose tragic murder has unravelled a complex web of injustice, wrongful convictions, and systemic failures within the small Kentucky town of Mayfield. King, renowned for his Pulitzer Prize-winning work Devil in the Grove, brings his expertise to uncover startling revelations that question the integrity of the local criminal justice system.

Overview of the Graves County Case

The centerpiece of this season revolves around the brutal murder of 18-year-old Jessica Curran in the summer of 2000. Jessica, a new mother to baby Zion, was found murdered and burned half-dressed outside Mayfield Middle School. The initial investigation in 2000 was marred by incompetence, leading to the wrongful conviction of her husband, Leo Curran, who was sentenced to life in prison in 1989. Despite Leo's conviction, doubts lingered about his guilt, especially as new evidence emerged years later implicating Jeremy Scott, a violent teenager who lived nearby.

Citizen Sleuth Susan Galbraith's Involvement

In 2004, four years after Jessica's murder, Susan Galbraith, an ordinary resident of Mayfield, took it upon herself to solve the case. Frustrated by the grossly mismanaged police investigation, Galbraith collaborated with a BBC reporter to pursue unconventional and highly complex investigative techniques. Maggie Freeling, the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist leading this investigation, describes Galbraith as an "OG sleuth," highlighting her pioneering role in citizen-led investigations long before the rise of online forums like Reddit (02:26).

Police Misconduct and Systemic Failures

One of the critical themes explored is the pervasive police corruption and mismanagement in Mayfield. Freeling discusses how the local law enforcement treated Galbraith with suspicion and annoyance, initially wanting her to desist from meddling (04:59). However, as her efforts gained traction, the police began to legitimize her involvement, ultimately adopting her theories to the point where eight individuals were charged with Jessica's murder. This overreach not only led to multiple wrongful convictions but also exposed deep-seated issues within the Mayfield Police Department, including the questionable decision to assign the case to a rookie detective amid ongoing scandals (04:06, 08:02).

Impact on the Community and Wrongful Convictions

The case's ramifications extended far beyond the initial murder, resulting in the wrongful conviction of five individuals, including Quincy Cross, who continues to fight for his freedom. Freeling emphasizes the devastating personal toll on these men and their families, painting a picture of lives irreparably damaged by the pursuit of justice gone awry (11:35). The series also sheds light on the broader implications of such miscarriages of justice, serving as a cautionary tale about the dangers of confirmation bias and the eagerness to find scapegoats in the name of resolving a tragic crime (11:35).

Role of Journalism in Unveiling the Truth

Freeling elaborates on the vital role journalism plays in uncovering and rectifying wrongful convictions. She reflects on her responsibility to "do no harm" while reporting on sensitive cases, highlighting the ethical dilemmas faced when balancing empathy with factual accuracy (15:54). The series underscores the importance of thorough, unbiased reporting in challenging established narratives and advocating for the innocent.

Personal Narratives and Emotional Impact

A significant portion of the series focuses on the personal stories of those affected by the case, particularly Jessica's father, Joe Curran. Freeling portrays Joe as a pillar of strength who, despite his own traumatic experiences growing up in the Jim Crow South, remains devastated by his daughter's murder and the subsequent failure of the justice system to exonerate her husband (19:36, 19:59). His unwavering hope and resilience are central to the emotional core of the series, offering listeners a poignant glimpse into the human cost of wrongful convictions.

Investigative Techniques and Unveiled Secrets

Throughout the series, Freeling recounts the meticulous investigative methods employed to uncover the truth. This includes the discovery of previously undocumented police tapes, emails, and grand jury testimonies that reveal the extent of police misconduct and the flawed interrogation tactics used to secure convictions (14:39). These discoveries were "jaw-dropping" moments for Freeling, highlighting the lengths to which authorities went to fabricate a narrative that fit their preconceived notions (14:16).

Cultural and Social Dynamics of Mayfield

Graves County is depicted not just as a location but as a character integral to the story. Freeling discusses how the town's insular nature and deeply entrenched social networks facilitated the concealment of truths and perpetuation of injustices (12:53, 13:20). The series contrasts Mayfield’s small-town mentality with larger urban settings, illustrating how interconnected communities can both support and stifle justice.

Emotional and Professional Reflections

Freeling shares her personal growth and the challenges faced during the investigation. She grapples with the ethical responsibilities of journalism, especially when her reporting could inadvertently harm innocent individuals or retraumatize victims' families (15:54). This introspection underscores the delicate balance journalists must maintain between uncovering truths and safeguarding the well-being of those involved.

Current Status and Future Prospects

As of the episode's release, Quincy Cross remains hopeful about his case gaining traction and potentially leading to his exoneration. The ongoing stigma and the slow pace of the legal system continue to weigh heavily on both Quincy and Jessica’s father, Joe Curran (28:55). Freeling expresses a deep emotional connection to the story, acknowledging the profound impact it has had on everyone involved, including herself.

Conclusion

Graves County serves as a powerful exploration of wrongful convictions, police misconduct, and the relentless pursuit of truth by determined individuals. Through meticulous journalism and compelling personal narratives, the series not only uncovers the layers of injustice surrounding Jessica Curran’s murder but also reflects on the broader implications for the criminal justice system. As the investigation progresses, listeners are left contemplating the fragile nature of justice and the essential role of investigative journalism in safeguarding it.

Notable Quotes

• Maggie Freeling on Citizen Sleuths: “She was like an OG one. It was back in 04. She's an OG sleuth.” (02:26)

• Freeling on Police Corruption: “When we do cover these cases of wrongful convictions, there are victims and victims families. And so I think it really helped me process this role of a journalist.” (15:54)

• Joe Curran’s Resilience: “He was a pillar in this town. And when his daughter was murdered, he thought all these people that he did good for and helped and was around and would do right by him, and they didn't.” (19:59)

• Freeling on Audio Storytelling: “There's something about audio that's just almost more truthful in a way.” (26:10)

• Quincy Cross’s Hope: “...he's just really happy that people got to hear his truth of the matter, that he's not a disgusting, savage, rapist burner man. He's just... he's a nice guy, you know, I hope that Quincy gets out.” (28:55)

Timestamps Reference

• 02:26
• 04:06
• 04:59
• 08:02
• 11:35
• 14:16
• 14:39
• 15:54
• 19:36
• 19:59
• 26:10
• 28:55

Note: The timestamps correspond to specific moments in the podcast transcript provided.

Transcript

[Gilbert King]

Hey, it's Gilbert King, host of Bone Valley. And today we're bringing you something new. An introduction to Lava For Good's newest investigative series. It's called Graves county, and it will be released right here in the Bone Valley feed. You'll see it shown here as Bone Valley season three. And while there are many familiar themes, this is an entirely new show told by a different host, Maggie Freeling, Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and one of the hosts of Lava for Good's Wrongful Conviction. The story is about the murder of a young mother, Jessica Curran, in the small Kentucky town she lived in, a place where it seems like everyone has a connection to this case. After four years of grossly mismanaged police investigation, a citizen sleuth named Susan Galbraith stepped in and took the case in a new direction. She concocted a wildly complicated story and the police decided to go along with it. Susan's version of events eventually led to at least eight different people being charged with Jessica's murder. Most of them have maintained their innocence from the beginning, and one of them, Quincy Cross, is still fighting for his freedom from behind bars. Graves county is a gripping, impeccably reported story of injustice that must be heard to be believed. Maggie Freeling brings urgency, compassion, and relentless journalism to a case that will stay with you long after the final episode. The first two episodes of Graves county will be out on July 30th, right here in the Bone Valley feed. Subscribers to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts will be able to listen to the entire series the same day. As an introduction to the new series, I sat down with Maggie for a Q and A about her experience of reporting this show for over two years and what she learned along the way.

[Maggie Freeling]

Maggie, it's so great to see you. So great to speak with you again. I've been listening to Graves County. I'm like four episodes in and I am hooked. And you've been working so hard on this. This is huge investigation for you. I just can't wait to ask you a million questions about this.

Ask away. I love talking about it.

Can you just walk us through the case just to give us a general sense of what this case is really about?

Yes. So in the summer 2000, Jessica Kern is an 18 year old mom. She just had her baby, Zion, and she is found brutally murdered and burned half dressed outside the Mayfield Middle School. And Susan Galbraith was just a woman in the town. Her life was not going great at the time. She needed purpose. And her purpose was, I'm going to solve this case. That was around 2004. After the police had initially bungled the case, they hired a rookie detective, they made some initial arrests and it went nowhere. So by 2004, this citizen sleuth gets involved. She involves a BBC reporter and they go on a hunt to solve the case. And what transpires is some of the craziest case solving techniques I've ever seen, some of the craziest, quote, journalism I've ever seen, and just some of the craziest investigating and policing I've ever seen. And it's all on tape and documented in emails. And so it was, it was pretty incredible to make this story and like have everyone's follies just right there, just documented so well.

So Maggie, I just was really curious about Susan Galbraith and she's, you know, the amateur sleuth who helped solve the eight year old murder of a teenage mom. But what drives an everyday citizen to get involved in a murder case like this? And obviously I think she passed away before you got to meet her, but you've obviously been studying her. Can you just talk about Susan and what motivated her to get involved in this case?

Yeah, Susan is fascinating when people hear this. I mean, she's a true character. She, you know, said that she was compelled by God to solve this murder. She was down the street eating lunch and she heard in this small town that they found a body and she went right to the scene and said God called her to solve this. What I think happened is so often we do see that when there is a void, when police in this case, they bungled it or they bungle it, or if they can't solve it, there is a void left. And citizen sleuths get involved. I mean, we see it now on Reddit and all these crime pages. It's something that happens. And she was like a OG one. It was back in 04. She's an OG sleuth.

How did police and law enforcement treat her? What was their relationship like with her?

I think they found her annoying based on these phone calls. I think they just wanted her to go away. However, you'll see as the story goes on, they really legitimized her. They took tips and leads. And ultimately her theory of what happened is the theory that the prosecution went with.

And she did have some tangential connections to people involved. Can you just talk about how she interacted with them and maybe use them as sources?

So Susan, she's a self described busybody and she knew a lot of people in town. She had been there a while. She's originally from Chicago, but she had been in Mayfield, small, small town, for a long time. So she knew a lot of the people involved in this case, these young folks, because she was friends with one of their moms, and she just. She was friends with a few of these kids, moms that were involved. She used her relationships with these people to get information, and that came at a cost. I think these people eventually realized that she was taking advantage of them.

Well, you've spent years, you know, covering the criminal justice system and probably from all different parts of the country. I'm just curious, what about this case that stands out to you? What makes it different than a lot that you've seen?

So when this case came to me, it came from Jason Flom. And when it was presented to me, I was basically told, cop corruption. I hear that all the time. You know, what stood out was the police legitimizing a citizen investigator. Really using her, like, wiring her. You'll hear that in the podcast. So that was fascinating to me. That was the first time I had really heard something like that, where a citizen, someone who has no background in law enforcement, is wiring themselves up and giving police tape, giving police leads, giving them full theories, and they're running with it. And the other thing was, how many people were wrapped up in this story and how many people were eventually convicted of this one murder? When you think of Occam's Razor, it was certainly not the story that makes the most sense. It was just this wild story that implicated eight or nine people. And I mean, more, it implicated countless people. But the amount of people wound up being convicted, I had not seen before. Five people we talk about in this story that were convicted of it.

There's just like one mind blowing thing after another. I just heard that, you know, you talk to the. The lead investigator who basically says, I didn't know what I was doing, and he's telling everybody that I don't know what I'm doing. Way over my head. I've never seen anything like that before. Like, what does that tell you when you.

Yeah, so that was one of the things that, you know, when they mentioned, like, this cop corruption. Okay, I'm interested. Not unique, but that was unique about it was why did the assistant chief of police assign this case to a rookie? It seemed almost like you wanted this to be investigated poorly from the beginning. If you're going to assign a rookie and not some of your best, which in retrospect, looking back, I don't know if Mayfield Police had some of their best. They were really embroiled with scandals and corruption. And, you know, that assistant chief of police you'll hear in the podcast was pretty dirty.

I want to go back to journalists because you do have this international presence, but you also have the local presence. And I'm just wondering if you can just talk about, like, the role that journalism plays in a wrongful conviction and what you noticed in this part of Kentucky.

Yeah. So it is so interesting getting to travel and tell so many different stories. I know you really specialize in Florida, which is so cool. I'm sure the amount of connections you have in Florida are amazing. This was my first time in Kentucky, and I don't. As a journalist. I don't like to just parachute in and then leave. So I've really been working on the story for two and a half years, getting to know people, done multiple, multiple trips there. And Kentucky is just a wild place. The lead prosecutor that convicted Quincy Cross in this case and the five other people, she's been in office since the early 80s. I mean, that is crazy to me. And now we're talking about five wrongful convictions from just this one case. And you've been in office since the 80s. How many other people have you railroaded? So to me, that's just like, what. How is that. Okay, how is that possible? That is the context of the. This story, and that is so important to understand in order to understand Quincy and what happened.

I mean, do you. Did you ever feel any resentment about there? Because you're down there, obviously you don't have a deadline of tomorrow, and then maybe the case, you don't write about it again, or maybe to cover the trial in another year or something like that. You're actually doing, like, long points of time studying this case, investigating this case. One of the things I noticed is that sometimes the local press, they're friends with the prosecutors. Those are the people that are giving them the stories, giving them access. And the journalism is kind of tainted. Did you find the same thing in that part of conservation?

Absolutely. I find that it's all tainted because in these small towns, everyone knows each other. It is just like a spider web of people who know each other, people protecting each other. You know, all these shows about small, small Southern towns talk about that, and it is so real. It's very different from being in New York, where, yes, people, they know each other. Of course, there's quid quo pros, but it's a. It's a different kind of thing. It's not My family grew up with your family kind of situation, and I'm sure that exists. But the small town mentality, it really fosters an environment of secrecy.

Yeah, I was thinking about that a lot while I was listening to this and I was just curious, like, when you look at this whole Graves county story, do you see it as like a tragedy, a conspiracy, a cautionary trait? How do you look at Graves County?

I think it's. I think it's all three. I think it's a tragedy, a conspiracy. And what was the other one?

Cautionary tale.

Cautionary tale. You know, I think it's a tragedy because if you think of these five people whose lives were ruined, that were convicted of this, each of those five people have family. Some of these people had kids, Some of these people were kids. So just alone there, it's a tragedy. It's devastating. Definitely a conspiracy. There's some wacky stuff going on that you'll hear about. And I think it's a cautionary tale because it all started with just believing what we're told. You know, this like confirmation bias. And I think that is so much what. What happened in this. Quincy was arrested and said he was an evil man. And from there on it was believed. And I think one of the things is that we see is an 18 year old mother was murdered and people wanted justice. And it really was a cautionary tale of how far will we go to get that justice? How many people can we throw under the bus and railroad to close this one case? And we see that all the time in wrongful convictions.

You know, what I really love about it so far is you've made Graves County a character in the story. And I just love the way it comes to life. You know, it's. There's definitely colorful people and accents, of course, but you just, you start to get a sense of the county. And it made me think, I wonder, like, do you think that this story would have looked the same if it was somewhere in like New England? What is it about Graves county that made this kind of story possible?

I mean, Graves county is, if you Google, is almost the dead center of this country. When I was looking at a map, I was trying to figure out where's the center of this country. And Graves county is really right there. It's kind of the middle of nowhere. And so secrets like that can really be kept closed. They really stay there. It was so surprising to know people in this state didn't even know about this case. I mean, and the fact that it wasn't as High profile, as I thought it should be. There's maybe like two TV shows on it, and both of them, again, just repeat that. Quincy's a disgusting, horrible man. Repeat the story that the police and prosecutors have been telling for years, despite the fact that he has innocence claims in. So, no, I think it would have been different, but who knows? For better or for worse.

One of the things that's happened when I'm listening to this is like, it seems like every episode my jaw kind of drops. Like, I've never heard recordings of grand jury testimony before, like, played in public. And then this Susan Galbraith character. Like, every. There's always some moment. I'm just wondering for you, having studied this case and investigated, was there anything that made your jaw drop? Having seen, you know, everything involved in this case or.

You know, I think this case, for me, it was like a very clear how do wrongful convictions happened? Because I lived this case for so long and watched every piece of tape, which was the most incredible thing to have every police interview, let me say, not every, because we've discovered that some are, quote, missing, can't be found, but most of the tape. And watch stories change, watch how they're doing the interrogations. They are like the ultimate super villains. My jaw dropped every time they spoke. Just every time they asked a question, it wasn't a question. It was just like threats and interrogations and just really inappropriate things.

Is there anything that happened that sort of changed your outlook or your opinion of anything involved in the case as you dug deeper into it?

Well, I think just exploring this idea of what is our role as journalists and how do we tell these stories. You made me, you know, in episode one, I mentioned the one time when I very strongly believed in someone's innocence and got it wrong. And I had to grapple with that. And I think as journalists, we need to think about what we do. Part of our job when we become journalists is to do no harm. That's part of our rules and ethics guidelines. Do no harm. So it really put the light on myself and thinking about my reporting. And that time I did do harm, not necessarily to the man that wound up being guilty, but to the victim, because I brought that story up again. So that is something to think about. When we do cover these cases of wrongful convictions, there are victims and victims families. And so I think it really helped me process this role of a journalist. Especially when we do use emotion and empathy as a tool and how we present that and use that in a way that is ethical, you Know, that's interesting.

I was listening to some of your. You know, obviously there's people who didn't want to talk to you. And did you feel the presence of, like, being an outsider and like, you couldn't penetrate?

Well, one of the things that we heard right away is, you know, this is a very rural Southern town. It not necessarily segregated, but people often whites, stay with the whites. And they talk about it like that. And when we came in, instantly it was, you're a white person. No one's gonna talk to you. That is how that town is. I mean, so I really had to build relationships and make myself trustworthy. And these are people who have had the worst of the worst happen to them. Be convicted of crimes, horrible rape and murder and burning of a teenage girl. So, yeah, I was very much an outsider. Very much.

Some people ask me about this when it comes to Florida. Do you think this story will matter to people outside of Florida? And I have an answer for that, But I'm just curious what your answer is. People who don't know Mayfield, Kentucky, why would they be interested in this? And can you explain?

I think the thing that we loved the most when we first. When Rebecca and I, my producer Rebecca, were first talking about this, to us, it reminded us of, like, I never watched Gossip Girl, but just the title Gossip Girl. It was like all these teenage girls gossiping about what happened to their friend. And those rumors turned into this conviction. And that can happen anywhere. When people start telling stories and spinning tales and gossiping, that can happen anywhere. Not just small town Mayfield, Kentucky. So I think, yes, it happened in a rural small town, but it's emblematic of wrongful convictions everywhere, really. People making up lies and blaming people pointing the finger. Because we need answers. It's just like a human. We need to blame someone. And the blame here, everyone was just pointing fingers at each other. And that is why Susan came in, because there was a void. It was a prime situation to go wrong, because the police got it wrong from the beginning. They bungled it. They messed it up from the beginning.

So.

So from there, it was just a free for all.

One of the other things I felt really moving was just hearing from Jessica's father. And I'm just curious, like, what your take on him was. Cause it just seemed like I could really relate to him as a father and just what that would do to you. And I just found him very moving in the story.

Joe Curran is a moving character. I mean, he grew up in the Jim Crow south from a lot of his Life. The only black guy. He grew up in this world of white people, and he did well in that world. In the Jim Crow south and then in segregation and racism, he did well. He was a pillar in this town. And when his daughter was murdered, he thought all these people that he did good for and helped and was around and would do right by him, and they didn't. They absolutely didn't. They failed Joe Curran in every way possible. And I think that's what was so sad about it. It was a guy who did everything right and persevered through everything and then was just let down so badly. And I think, you know, he knows he might never get those. Because with a story like this where there is just so much bullshit, it might be lost. It might very well be lost.

I'm just curious, is he like one of the people that you think about when you're trying to dig into this story? Like, I just want to make him have answers. Like, I would feel so motivated by the way he spoke.

It's him and David. And I got closer with David because Joe dealt with another tragedy. One of his sons died while we were reporting this. I mean, the Kerns have just had loss after loss. Like we couldn't believe another son died or a son died, two kids. So, you know, I didn't get to build as close of a relationship with Joe that I did with David. But what was so beautiful to me about Joe is that he was willing to listen to David and sit down with him. The man whose son is a convicted of murdering your daughter. It's. It's a very. Like Jeremy Leo, he was like, I'll sit down and listen to your information. That. That brings up stuff for him, like looking at your daughter's case file. Looking at was what was done to her. He suffered through all of that just to get answers. He is. He's an incredible person.

Yeah, that really comes across and I just. The empathy and just. I mean, there's one like, very casual comment, like a waitress says to him, like, you look like you just lost your best friend or something like that and realizes what it's about. And I just found that so profound in the story.

He does. And he still, he really does. Joe feels like he is carrying the weight of the world. You know, we've met with a lot of victims families and he is not someone that I. That I can say, you know, is. Is just moving on. Like he really. This destroyed him. You know, his wife wasn't there. She can't even talk about it. So I Never met her, talked to her. She doesn't want anything to do with this kind of stuff. And it's just too hard. It's too hard. And so for Joe to be out there even doing this, we've been wondering, like, is Joe going to listen to this? Because the whole time, it's like, we want to make sure, you know, the father of Jessica is able to listen to this. We thought about him, and we kind of were like, he might not really listen to this. That is just. How could you? It's so hard.

Sometimes people ask me, like, has this case changed you? And. And I'm just curious, like, going through this process, it's obviously very labor intensive, investigatively intensive. Did it affect you differently? Did you come away from this differently?

Yeah. I mean, as a journalist, it really made me look inwards, because when we wanted to be reporting on all of these allegations against the police, we set out to do that, right? We were making an episode all about these allegations about the police. And then we thought, wait a second. But that's what Susan did, what the police did. And we looked at ourselves as journalists and storytellers and reporters and said, what good would that do to report these allegations and potentially ruin people's names, drag their names through the mud if this isn't true, if we can't fundamentally confirm this? And so that's what it did. It really just made me look again at my role as a storyteller and a journalist and what we choose to present again, do no harm. And even though I think a lot of these officers are the worst of the worst people, things that we have found out about them, it's still my job to do no harm to everyone I report on.

And just. I'm curious what you like about this format, telling stories through audio. I'm just curious, you know, you've come in from a print background, like, just about everybody. What do you like and what do you see as some of the limitations of it in your storytelling?

Yeah, so I've been into audio since 2009. I took a podcasting class on GarageBand in undergrad. So I've always loved it because I just find it so intimate. And for example, with season two, when your season. Bone Valley, when. Gosh, who was reading the letter? Jeremy was reading one of Justin's letters, or vice versa, but it was very beautifully layered on top. Justin playing with his kid in the background as the letter's being read. And at first I was like, is that in my hotel room? Like, where do I hear kids playing because it was so subtle. But then it was just this beautiful moment of like, one of them talking about how well he's doing with his son. And then you can hear it at the same time. And. And that would have been visual in a TV show. But I like that I could imagine it myself because what I was imagining was the playing with the letter being. And it was just so intimate and beautiful. And I think a visual would have taken away from the intimacy.

That's a really great point. Yeah. There is something about just listening to a voice in your ear with headphones when you know that microphone's really close.

Cause you know what it is. I find visuals very distracting in a way. I'm a visual learner, so I do like visuals. But in terms of storytelling, I find it works when you have, you know, visually wild characters. But I like to imagine what they look like. Some people fixate on things about someone and instantly go, I can't look at that person. Or I can't look at what they're doing. Or like Susan Galbraith on the stand. I mean, if she was a character in a TV show, I would probably be fixated on her just gum chewing and maybe not even hearing what she's saying. So I just find that listening to it too, it's. Without the distractions. It takes away one level of distraction. Right. Then you're just thinking about what audio is distracting.

Right. That's really a good point because I noticed that, like, you know, when they did the 2020 piece on Leo, like, the host has to ask the question, did you kill your wife? And, you know, he says, no, obviously. But, like, I've had people come up to me saying, you know, he kind of looked to the left and that's kind of something that guilty people do. And like, it's just the visual part. Like, it loses all the context of anything.

I believe so.

And so I just think there's something about audio that's just almost more truthful in a way.

I know. I agree. I think that visuals can be, you know, when we talk about this in, you know, when I do stories as a journalist, music can manipulate people's feelings too. We discuss what kind of music like. And there's just another layer to that with visuals. So I just. It's like, even more to get wrong. And it's. I liked the simplicity of audio.

Yeah. Yeah.

And like, conveying points that I want to in a very simple, easy, packaged, intimate way.

I agree. I was just curious what your thought. I didn't realize you started in 2009. That's amazing.

Well, I was an undergrad, and I took a podcasting class in GarageBand, which I haven't. I don't even know if GarageBand exists anymore. Like, I don't think people even use that. But, yeah, it was podcasting class in GarageBand. And then, yeah, I started audio right in grad school. Been doing it for a very long time.

Do you remember a lot of the mistakes you made, like, doing audio, trying to figure out, how do we do this?

Yeah. And I think some of. A lot of the mistakes are just like. Like, overdoing the sound and, like, music. Like, again, it was really learning, like, how music can manipulate someone's emotions. So, like, just being really careful with that. Because if you're trying to tell a truthful story and you put in some music to make someone feel something, you are manipulating. You're telling them what to feel. So, yeah.

Yeah. My biggest mistake was I just couldn't shut up when people were talking. I just keep going. Yeah. Huh.

Yeah, I. I still. I can. I still do that.

It's a nightmare for the editors and stuff. I know, but can you just give us an update on Quincy Cross?

Yeah. So his case is moving. Quincy's just really hopeful. He's glad his story's out there. I mean, it's. When you're put away in prison, you're meant to be forgotten about. They want you to be forgotten about. They don't want these stories coming out there, so they have to acknowledge what has happened, what they did wrong. So he's just really happy that people got to hear his truth of the matter, that he's not a disgusting, savage, rapist burner man. He's just. He's a nice guy, you know, I hope that Quincy gets out.

Does he have hope? Do you feel like you can feel it? Yeah.

I cried so much during this, but especially when David looked at us in the eyes and said, I'm afraid I'll die before he gets out of prison. They're both old. David's old Joe is old. They're old men, and they both want the same thing. And it's really sad that the law in Kentucky is denying these two men those answers.

Well, Maggie, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. I cannot wait to hear the rest of Graves county. And I just really want to commend you on the work because it's very hard to loop me in on these stories. But this one has just grabbed me from the start. And as I said, a lot of jaw dropping moments, which must have been so much fun for you to report on.

Exactly. Thank you. It's always great talking with you. And maybe we'll get a drink after this.

Sounds good.

[Gilbert King]

The first two episodes of Graves county will be out on July 30th, right here in the Bone Valley. Feed subscribers to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts will be able to listen to the entire series the same day.