B (2:35)

A group of three students is assigned to investigate Kevin Herrick's case, along with a third year law student, Nick White, Amanda's husband.

A (2:44)

When I find something, I immediately go to like property records. I go to these things. She starts, she thinks in people more Than I do think through documents and she thinks through people.

B (2:55)

Can you describe, like, the difference in energy that you bring to this case and like, what that's like, working together and just what strengths one other had? Like, how does that work between you?

A (3:05)

I think we have totally opposite. She drives me nuts as hell. I don't. By throwing chaos into my carefully crafted folders. No, it's true.

B (3:16)

Amanda has a knack for getting to the bottom of a case through finding people who might know something I've gotten really interested in.

A (3:23)

First of all, just like boots on the ground, door knocking. I don't know if it's being from a small town. I love talking to people. People just open up to me about their stuff. Maybe it's cause I overshare, I don't know. But I found a way that. To make it really useful. I love that part of it. I love them.

B (3:35)

They'll work with three undergrads who will spend months digging into Kevin's case.

A (3:39)

Hair groups. It's a group project. Right. And it is the most difficult group project anyone will ever work on. And I would say that, like, in this particular group, it is an amazing group of students that works really well together and all have their own specific strengths and things that they bring to the table. We got, obviously, sweet baby Brett. My life's purpose is to work with incarcerated people and help them get back what the prison system stole from them. Who is a delight and just a really sweet and great young man.

B (4:15)

There's Ava.

A (4:16)

Hi, my name is Ava Kawamura. She is really, really smart. She was quieter at first, and I'm really hoping to be a part of the spring 2025 cohort for the Making and Exonerate class. Hi, everyone. My name is Naina Nina, who is wonderful, very outspoken, very loud. Like, I mean, I am as well. I will try everything to get these people justice in a system that doesn't give it out.

B (4:44)

But when the students got their assignments, Nina wasn't eager to work on Kevin's case.

A (4:50)

I got assigned Kevin's case. And I remember the first day, I was like, I want to switch off. I was like, I'm not taking this. I'm just not doing it. I just was really vehemently opposed to working on a sexual assault case. I always want to believe the victim. And I just. I was like, I'm not taking this. I'm just not doing it.

B (5:11)

She even told Mark Howard, the co director of Making an Exoneree, that she wanted a different case.

A (5:19)

And Mark said, well, this is the case you're working on. So you can drop the class or you can stay on the case. So I said, you know what? Let me do you one better. I'll read the case and I'll prove to you that he's guilty. It's all there. So let me read the case and prove to you that he's guilty. I got it. I just had no clue what I was getting myself into. Do you hear my madness?

B (6:05)

Laughter hides my fear Sorrow's depths are.

A (6:12)

Endless.

B (6:16)

In this valley of tears.

A (6:21)

I wanna see your revelation I wanna know who Reaching out in desperation.

B (6:41)

Bone Valley Kevin is next. Part 2.

A (6:55)

There's no rule book. There's no right Nobody says, here's the case. And then once you read the case, then talk to XYZ person and blah, blah, blah. No one gives you that shit. You have got to create a playbook.

B (7:10)

When Nina, Ava, and Brett get started, one of the first things they do is read the trial transcript.

A (7:16)

We researched everything.

B (7:19)

The trial itself lasted only two days. There's not a whole lot of pages to go through. But the students aren't just reading. They're dissecting line by line, looking for a clear timeline in the victim's accounts of what happened that night and whether the pieces actually fit. The first witness called at trial is Cheryl, Kevin's neighbor with a baby, who says she was sexually assaulted that night. She testifies that on the night of the attack, she was home alone with the baby while her boyfriend Scott was out. She went to bed, then woke to an intruder on top of her pressing a sharp object to her neck. She says he threatened to hurt her or her baby if she didn't comply and says he briefly forced his penis into her mouth. It was pitch black, she says, and she couldn't get a clear look at the attacker. Next on the stand is Scott Barfield. He says that after returning to the triplex that night, he was smoking a cigarette outside when he heard whimpering inside. He rushed in and fought with the assailant in the dark. During the struggle, Scott was stabbed twice in the chest. Shallow wounds that left only minor injuries. The next part of Scott's testimony is hard to follow, but here's the best I can do. To boil it down, Scott says the assailant tried to leave through the locked sliding glass door, then exited out the front. Scott chased him down the block, over a fence and into the parking lot of another complex. Bleeding and unwilling to confront him again, Scott crouched near a row of boats parked on trailers, trying to get a look at the man who had attacked him and his girlfriend. He thought he saw the man climb into a car. Scott says he memorized the license plate number and then ran back toward the triplex. By then, several neighbors had come outside after hearing Cheryl's screams about the attack as she stood holding her baby. At first a skeptic, Nina studies the transcript, trying to follow Scott's testimony. As she reads, she sketches a diagram and labels everyone who was standing in the courtyard of the triplex.

A (9:52)

There were the victims, Cheryl and her.

B (9:55)

Baby, Mrs. Pori, Pat's mom, the woman on Oxygen who Kevin was living with.

A (10:02)

Teresa, the young couple living in the.

B (10:04)

Other unit, Barbara and Dave Stewart and one more person.

A (10:09)

Kevin's standing right there.

B (10:14)

But if Kevin was standing there when Scott returned, how could he also be the man Scott chased over a fence and saw getting into a car?

A (10:24)

Foreign Hey y', all, it's Maggie. I'm here to tell you about a new show I've been working on for the past two years. It's called Graves county and it's an investigative series about the murder of a young mom in Kentucky and just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame. And here is the trailer for Graves County. All I know is what I've been told and that's a half truth is a whole lie. For almost a decade, the murder of an 18 year old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist and a handful of girls came forward with a story. I'm telling you, we know Quincy killed her. We know a story that law enforcement used to convict six people and that got the citizen investigator on national tv. Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky.

B (11:37)

Housewife helped give justice to Jessica Curran.

A (11:40)

My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist producer and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that easy to find. I did not know her and I did not kill her or rape or burn or any of that other stuff that y' all said. They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her from lava for good. This is Graves County, a show about just how far our legal system will go in order to find someone to blame. America, y' all better wake the hell up. Bad things happens to good people and small towns. Listen to Graves county in the Bone Valley feed starting September 17th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts and to binge the entire season ad free. Subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts Looking for excitement? Chumba Casino is here. Play anytime. Play anywhere. Play on the train. Play at the store. Play at home. Play when you're bored. Play today for your chance to win and get daily bonuses when you log in.

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A (13:20)

Hi, I'm Cindy Crawford and I'm the founder of Meaningful Beauty. Well, I don't know about you, but like, I never liked being told, oh wow, you look so good for your age. Like, why even bother saying that? Why don't you just say you look great at any age, every age. That's what Meaningful Beauty is all about. We create products that make you feel confident in your skin at the age you are now. Meaningful Beauty. Beautiful skin at every age. Learn more@meaningful beauty.com.

B (13:57)

I'm Gwen Washington, the host of Snap Judgment from KQED.

A (14:01)

Every week, we don't just tell stories, we drop you inside them.

B (14:06)

Real people, real voices, real moments that split a life in two.

A (14:11)

What do you believe? What do you risk?

B (14:13)

What do you want? Snap Judgment. New episodes every Thursday, wherever you get your podcast. One of the biggest issues with the theory that Kevin committed this crime is that there was someone with him all night who had no reason to lie about what she saw. Teresa Pori was essentially guarding the only way in and out of the apartment, the front door. In her deposition, she says Kevin came home that night, then went into bed, and that she sat in the living room watching tv. When she heard Cheryl screaming, she went into Kevin's room to wake him up. She says there's no way he could have left without her knowing, and the layout of the apartment backs her up. The Pori's unit had three sliding glass doors that opened onto the back patio, one in Kevin's room, one in the living room, and one in Mrs. Pori's bedroom. But none of them offered a realistic escape room. The door to Kevin's room was jammed off its rails, blocked by furniture and construction supplies. If Kevin had used it, he would have had to drag it open and maneuver through obstacles silently and in seconds, the living room door was directly in Mrs. Pori's line of sight as she sat on the couch watching TV. And the sliding door to Mrs. Pori's bedroom was on the other side of the living room, Meaning Kevin would have had to sneak right past her to use it. As Mrs. Pori put in her testimony. He was asleep. When I went in there, that boy was asleep. There was no time for that boy to come in there to hop in bed. By the time I got from here to that bedroom, I would have seen him get in the bed. There was no time because that's how fast I ran back to get him. For Scott's story to be true, Kevin would have had to leave the Pori's apartment without being seen or heard by Teresa. He'd have to walk around the building to Cheryl and Scott's apartment next door, attack Cheryl, fight with Scott, stab him, run out the front door, get chased by Scott a few blocks, sneak back into his bedroom and pretend to be asleep again without Teresa noticing him. So now the students have to decide which makes more sense. Scott's story that Kevin was responsible for the attacks or Mrs. Pory's testimony that Kevin never left the apartment.

A (17:06)

Okay, like, walk. Let's walk the dog with me here.

B (17:10)

Nina started out wanting to prove Kevin guilty, But when she worked through the timeline and testimony, she realized the pieces didn't fit the way Scott said they did. Kevin supposedly ran everywhere, but all the evidence pointed to him never leaving the triplex. Mrs. Pori said he never went anywhere, and there was no way he could have gotten in or out without her seeing him.

A (17:35)

Like, you can't walk the dog with me. The dog is still stationary because there's nothing to walk now. Screw the timeline, right? Say somehow he made it work.

B (17:46)

Even then, if Kevin attacked Cheryl and stabbed Scott, there should have been something left behind, Some trace in the apartment pointing back to him.

A (17:57)

They collected hair, and they collected fingerprints from the crime scene.

B (18:02)

This is Ava.

A (18:03)

They were able to show that the hair didn't match Kevin's through microanalysis that they did.

B (18:09)

They also compared the bloody prints on the door from where the assailant tried to escape to Kevin's prints.

A (18:15)

And they showed the fingerprints didn't match Kevin either. A few of them matched the victim, and the rest of them were unidentified. None of the physical evidence matched Kevin.

B (18:25)

Nina may have been skeptical of Kevin at the start, but now, based on the timeline and the evidence she was questioning herself.

A (18:34)

I was like, crap, this guy might actually. He may actually.

B (18:41)

As the students dug deeper, they realized there was so much here that seemed to point Away from Kevin's guilt. Here's Ava.

A (18:51)

I think also another one of the issues with this case is that there are too many issues. There's the timeline and the physical evidence and the, you know, police interference and the crappy attorney and all of this stuff, and it just keeps building.

B (19:04)

And then police misrepresented the evidence. Officers told the victims they'd found a bloody knife and clothes in Kevin's room and that the bloody fingerprints on the sliding glass door were matched to Kevin. None of this was true, but it made a powerful impression at trial.

A (19:24)

We're inclined to believe the victim, especially in sexual assault cases. And the issue is that the identification of Kevin didn't actually originally come from the victim. It came from the police, who told them, falsely that they found a bloody knife and bloody clothing in Kevin's room, which was not true at the end of the day. But once you tell someone who's just been through a traumatic incident that you have a potential suspect, and all they want to do is resolve the case and figure out who did this and move beyond it, then it's, you know, understandable in a way that they would fixate on that. And at that point, you just can't remove that from their minds.

B (20:10)

In her deposition, Cheryl pointed to Kevin as her attacker. On cross examination, Kevin's lawyer asked a simple question.

A (20:20)

Your opinion as to who this was is based on what? And she says they found a bloody knife in his room and his fingerprints on our door. That is the basis of why she believes Kevin did it, and that's a lie. There's so many points where somebody could have stopped this.

B (20:38)

This is Brett.

A (20:39)

Yeah. The police could have stopped this. The judge could have stopped this. The prosecutor could have stopped this. So many people. The jury could have stopped this. It feels like it should be so much more difficult for this to happen. But then when you actually look at this, it just happened so easily.

B (20:58)

By the time they were ready to travel to Florida to investigate for themselves, the. The students had read everything they could get their hands on. And then came more.

A (21:07)

Right before this trip, the Innocence Project gave us over 2,000 pages of documents. Yes. So we got a huge dump of documents.

B (21:15)

Since Nick is advising the student group, he and Amanda take on the opposite of their usual roles. Nick heads to Florida to be on the ground with the undergrads, while Amanda stays behind to work through the mountain of documents.

A (21:29)

So, really, the night before your trip and the next day? I'm staying up. I'm also a night owl, so I'm staying up till like 3am going through just to see what all there is. I'm like skipping certain.

B (21:38)

Meanwhile, the students are on the ground in Tampa knocking on doors and visiting key locations in the case. Not the kinds of places you'd ever find on the grounds of Georgetown University.

A (21:52)

Yeah, you go, Brett. So we just went to Mons Venus, which is the strip club where Patrick Pori and Felicia Pori both worked at.

B (22:02)

They also try to talk to anyone else who is still alive who might know something about this case.

A (22:08)

I'm really nervous. I know that they're not going to let us in. Like they will. Yeah, yeah. I would just say, yeah, we're students looking into cases that have outstanding issues. Like here we have untested evidence and things like that. We are here to talk to you about your ex husband, see if you had any information for us. Let's find somewhere to like regroup. Yeah, not here. Let's go back to the Emma's. Brett in the car. And so we just went to Cheryl and Scott. Neither of them were home. We're gonna try again this year.

B (22:48)

Evening they investigate at the triplex.

A (22:53)

We just pulled up to the triplex. We have looked at photos of this triplex like forever. And we just like saw it in person. Holy. I can't believe, like this is where Kevin's like whole life was taken from him.

B (23:11)

And they try once again to make Scott's testimony line up with Kevin being the assailant.

A (23:17)

Okay, so he runs out through here. This is the sliding glass door. So he tries to go out that way through this. So he instead comes out this way, runs here.

B (23:28)

But they can't make it work.

A (23:30)

Doesn't make sense.

B (23:41)

Back in Maryland, Amanda is working her way through this new stack of documents and looking.

A (23:46)

Mostly I'm focused on depositions and statements, but then I see in there a vehicle property report with a VIN number and a license plate. And we've known from the start of this case that a license plate was yelled out and that we've never had the plate number.

B (24:01)

This has always been one of the more disturbing parts of Kevin's case. Scott says he told police about the license plate number. And yet none of the officers reports from that night mention a car or a plate. It's as if both vanished from police records. So where did that number go and who did it belong to? Then comes the most surprising part. At trial, Scott says he made the whole story up. He says he already knew it was Kevin, but lied about the license plate to throw police off because he wanted to take Revenge on Kevin himself. He's just been stabbed. His girlfriend has been sexually assaulted. His baby's life has been threatened, and his first instinct is to lie to the police. Also, when Scott runs back to the triplex, he says he sees Kevin while Cheryl and her baby are also still there. If he really thought Kevin was the attacker all along, why not confront him? And then Scott goes to the hospital to get his minor injuries treated, but leaves Cheryl and their baby standing there with Kevin still at the triplex.

A (25:19)

That makes no sense.

B (25:23)

And now, 36 years later, Amanda uncovers a document buried in the state attorney's files attached to Kevin's case. It's a police report, an investigation into a license plate.

A (25:40)

I see this report. I'm like, what the hell is this? And I just see that one page, and I get so excited, and I. So I. I think I called Nick immediately, and I emailed it to all the students. I'm like, holy shit, Is this the plate?

B (25:55)

Amanda immediately files a records request with the Florida DMV on plate EZ5.11W. And boom. The plate comes back to a 1978 Datsun station wagon owned at the time by a man named Paul Fredette, who lived just down the road from the triplex. She quickly punches for debt's name into the Pinellas county clerk of court criminal records database.

A (26:23)

Paul Fredette. Scroll down. One criminal charge shows up on there. Sexual battery, 1979. And I was like, holy shit. I was like. I'm like, I'm fucking so excited. I'm, like, stoked. And so then I start looking at those pages again.

B (26:37)

It looks to Amanda like the license plate Scott was screaming out that night. The car he said he initially tracked to the assailant was registered to a man who lived in the neighborhood, A man who had already been charged with sexual battery long before Kevin was ever accused in this case. Amanda eventually pulls the details on those charges.

A (26:59)

Essentially, he had been sexually abusing a family member for four to five years and, you know, escalating in that behavior. And reported to, you know, his wife at the time, and she reported to the police. He pretty much confessed, like, that same day to doing it and had a drinking problem.

B (27:21)

That discovery set off a cascade of.

A (27:23)

Questions for her, Because I started thinking, okay, would somebody that assaulted a child, family member be the same type of person that committed this crime? So I started looking back in the documents and the details of the case, like, what did he say? How did he use the weapon? All of those things. And to me, I never thought that this person who attacked Cheryl, planned to stab her or the baby, but they clearly were going to use that as a threat.

B (27:53)

And then she starts thinking about the legal issues and what this single document could mean for Kevin's case. Amanda now sees that police did investigate a license plate, but it was never included with the records turned over to Kevin's defense. Instead, it sat buried in the state attorney's office. So Kevin's lawyers never had a chance to see it. For Kevin's defense, this piece of paper could have pointed to an alternate suspect and an alternate theory of the crime. Evidence that could have raised reasonable doubt in front of a jury. Under the law, withholding that kind of material is a brady violation when prosecutors failed to disclose evidence that could help the defense. And the question now was, what were Amanda and Nick going to do about it?

A (28:42)

What she started doing is diving in, like, okay, who can I find who might talk to us? And so she started diving into his.

B (28:50)

Relatives and then went, she wants to know more about this Paul Fredette guy and whether people around him thought he was capable of committing a crime like this. Amanda searches online and finds that Fredette died in 2023. But his Facebook page still shows two friends to Amanda. One looks like a bot. The other is a woman living in rural central Florida.

A (29:17)

And this lady just looks like a really nice lady. She is in tie dye. She has all these animals, all these dogs, and, like, we're big animal people. So I'm like, this lady. I don't like something about this. I feel like she's going to help.

B (29:37)

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B (30:42)

You think you know snap judgment.

A (30:44)

Yes, it's on NPR.

B (30:45)

It's podcasts, it's storytelling.

A (30:46)

But snap has gone deeper, stranger, wilder. We've taken you places that the New.

B (30:51)

York Times, the Rolling Stones, the Ambies, the Webbies, the Gracies, all stood up for.

A (30:55)

Welcome to the podcast hall of fame. Glenn Washington, award winning stories, original beats.

B (31:01)

Soundscapes that drop you into the heart of the story. Find Snap Judgment from KQED every Thursday, wherever you get your podcast.

A (31:13)

No, it's good. Well, it's. What's so crazy too, is I saw you online before I even had all the puzzle pieces. And I'm like, she's gonna. Somehow I know she's gonna help us like this.

B (31:22)

Amanda eventually reached the woman for privacy, we'll call her Shirley. On their first phone call, Amanda asked what she knew about the man who owned the car at the time of the attack. Shirley said she actually lived on the same property as him.

A (31:38)

For a few years. My husband dealt with him. I didn't want to deal with him. But then when my husband passed away, I started to be the one that I would go to him and say, I'm going grocery shopping. Do you need anything? I've always been the peacemaker mediator. I'll handle this. I'll handle that. So that's how I got to know him. I never got to know him, like, well, because he had no people skills.

B (32:04)

None.

A (32:06)

If I were to label him, I would say he was either brain damaged or just the most selfish person I've ever met in my life. So that's how I got to know him.

B (32:19)

After sharing that, Shirley told Amanda something surprising. After Paul died, she ended up with all of his possessions.

A (32:29)

Who wants to deal with this? And it was junk. I mean, I went through it a few times. I looked around to see if there was anything of value, but it was junk.

B (32:38)

But Amanda had a feeling there could be something valuable in his belongings. Maybe fingerprints they could compare with those collected from Cheryl and Scott's sliding glass door. So she and Nick went to Shirley's, and I went with them. They also brought along Cliff Blum, a former detective turned private investigator, to photograph anything that might serve as evidence. So you packed all this stuff up and brought it over here today.

A (33:06)

And so this stuff, I couldn't find a bag big enough for it. So I figured if I use gloves and I put it in the cardboard box, that's fine. And then the Rest of it, as you could see. See, I found some big party bags. Amazing. You can take all of this stuff with you. So when I first got contacted by Amanda and I started looking around and she specifically said if you see anything like a knife, I was like, oh, yeah, there's a pen knife somewhere.

B (33:39)

Shirley found the knife among Paul's belongings. The knife is small, precise, almost like a scalpel. The same kind of weapon described in the attack.

A (33:51)

Well, this knife has been sitting on the desk, and it's been sitting on that desk all that time, but I picked it up several times.

B (33:57)

Cliff, the former detective, starts taking photos of the knife. I mean, how would you describe that knife? Is that, is there a name for that kind of knife? Cliff? This is, I mean, it's, it's old.

A (34:11)

I'll tell you that.

B (34:12)

It's pretty much just a two bladed pocket knife, about six inches long, pen blade.

A (34:18)

I wouldn't touch that much now. There's no stamp on it.

B (34:22)

While we were there, Kevin called Nick, who handed the phone to Shirley. Kevin, like Leo Scofield, is a deeply spiritual man with a theology degree of his own.

A (34:34)

I'm good. I certainly want to tell you thank you very much for everything that you, you've been doing again to tell you how, how important it might be. I'm, I'm hopeful and I'm praying for you. I appreciate that. I definitely appreciate that. It's been a long ride. You know, God, obviously, if you're praying, you're praying to God, right? I pray that you know Jesus and. Yep, Father Heaven. So that, that tells me that he's got plans and he's going to take care of it. He's been taking care of me for a long, long time. So he's got good plans for this. I have a good friend who always says, that's not odd. That's just God. That's great. And I had another pastor who said there are converging lines of destiny that God puts together from the beginning of time. And I really, really believe that. But regardless, if I never meet you face to face, I know where I'll meet you. Oh, yeah, we'll see each other up there. And I'll definitely, definitely. We'll, we'll have some food. Remember, when this happens. Not on. That's God. I'm gonna use that. I get to, I get to preach pretty regularly. That's awesome. A lot of people that need it, so I'm gonna use that one for sure. Okay. All right. God bless you. All right.

B (36:06)

We don't know if this knife is the one used at the crime scene, we don't know if the man who owned it was the person who assaulted Cheryl, threatened her baby, and attacked Scott. There's still forensic testing and investigation to be done. But here's what we do know. This document that Amanda found, the investigation into a license plate buried in the state attorney's files, could be the opening that gives Kevin Herrick what he's never had, a fair trial. Amanda's worked on so many cases where she knows someone is innocent, but there's nothing that can win them another day in court. With Kevin, though, she's found evidence that really could make the difference for the first time in decades. Are you hopeful for Kevin?

A (36:58)

I'm really hopeful. I'm really hopeful. I just want to fucking do something that helps actually get someone out of prison or. Sorry. God. But I just. I want to do that. And this is honestly the first time I've actually felt like I might actually do that. Hello, this is a prepaid call from.

B (37:33)

An inmate at a Florida Department of Corrections institution.

A (37:37)

To accept his call, press 0.

B (37:41)

Leo has been keeping his part of the deal he made with Kevin to never stop fighting for the one left behind. They talk on the phone almost every day, and Chrissy is often there watching her husband on the line with his best friend.

A (37:57)

The two of them, when they're on the phone, what I've seen is that Kevin spends a lot of time supporting him and encouraging him. Him. Doofus burger. What's going on, bro? And we got this, and we got this. It's all about hope, hope. Hope for each other. Well, I'm doing good, I reckon, all things considered. One thing that's missing, I think, is because they have 30 minutes. It's recorded. They don't. They don't have the opportunity to share their deep, deep stuff that's missing. And I think that's where they're sitting still. This credible gratitude for what they have, but this intense longing that they are missing, that they. They. They cover up with the. The support and the hope and. And the silliness and that. Here's background. Yeah. What's going on? Incredible, man. They're taking showers. Dude's two feet in front of them, screaming at it.

B (38:59)

My dork's bigger than yours.

A (39:00)

Screaming at him in Spanish. That's my translation. Why is mine not that big? Why are you looking at it? That's my response. You have one minute remaining. Kind of hate that woman. As soon as the phone clicks off, his head goes down. Every time. Every time. You keep your head up and keep.

B (39:22)

Doing what you're doing.

A (39:22)

How you doing brother? You know I love you. Thank you for using Global Tell Link. So it's a good thing when they talk to each other, but also very, very painful. And I would imagine that would happen to Kevin too, that he hangs up. I imagine he hangs up the phone and has to turn around and face Here it is again.

B (40:00)

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