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- [00:00]
A
This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing.
- [00:11]
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If anyone has ever said you snored.
- [00:14]
A
Loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your.
- [00:24]
B
Airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation.
- [00:31]
A
Learn more at. Don't sleep on osa.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company. Hey audiobook lovers. I'm Cal Penn. I'm Ed Helms. Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Irsay The Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Each week we sit down with your.
- [00:53]
B
Favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very.
- [00:56]
A
Special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible. Listen to HearSay on America's number one PODC podcast network, iHeart Followersay, and start listening on the free iHeartRadio app today.
- [01:09]
C
The following ad is sponsored by Pet's Best Insurance Services. You knew right away he's perfect. The one for you. Those puppy dog eyes, that cute little button nose. You don't even mind the drool. When you find your perfect match in a dog or cat, the love is unconditional. Your budget, on the other hand, has realistic limits. Help protect your heart and your wallet with pet insurance from Pets Best. With plans starting from less than a dollar a day, you can get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills. Pets Best makes it easy to pick a plan that works for you and your bank account. Find the perfect match for your Perfect match@petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by PetsBest Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Co. Or Independence American Insurance Co. For terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com. policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Co. Or Ms. Transverse Insur. Administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10 heads up.
- [02:10]
B
This series contains graphic descriptions of violence.
- [02:17]
A
I want you to tell me we're going to go all the way back. In this case, we're going to go all the way back to July 30th of 2000 and I want you to start there and tell me exactly how you got involved in this case and what happened.
- [02:37]
How I got involved in this case is due to the fact I was the last person to see Jessica alive.
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B
Nearly 10 years after the trial and conviction of Quincy Cross, Venetia Stubblefield sat down with a private investigator.
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A
We don't do interviews like other people. There will be no turning off, no cameras unless it's an emergency or unless you have to go to a bathroom.
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B
This is a familiar scene. Venetia sitting at a table with her hands on her lap, her anxious eyes cast downward, answering yet another question about the murder of Jessica Curran.
- [03:19]
A
Anything that's said in this room about this case is going to be on this tape. You understand?
- [03:27]
B
The first time police interviewed venetia, she was 16 years old, going on 17. And for years, Venetia maintained that on a Saturday night in the summer of 2000, she hung out with Jessica, played cards and had some drinks.
- [03:43]
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And then time passing by, we didn't realize it until it was like 15, 20 minutes to 2. So we got up, we left, they.
- [03:53]
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Said goodbye, never to see each other again.
- [04:01]
That story changed, though, in 2007, when Venetia became one of the state's main witnesses and implicated Quincy Cross as the ringleader in Jessica's brutal murder. But now Venetia says that story, the one used in court, is a lie.
- [04:20]
A
They literally made me say that I was there at Jessica Kearns, at the crime scene when Jessica was being killed. They literally made me say that I took part in it. They literally made me say that I took a match and struck and threw it on her. They made me say that I poured gas on her. They made me say that I took part in having sexual contact with her when she was already dead and everything.
- [04:42]
B
A lie that she fabricated. When agents with the Kentucky Bureau of Investigation, the kbi, took over as lead investigators for the case.
- [04:52]
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Did the KDI threaten you in any kind of way in this case? Yes, they did tell me how they had told me that I did not come forward and tell the truth on him, killed Jessica, that they would make sure that I spent the rest of my life in prison. I would never see my family, my friends. They yelled all kind of stuff.
- [05:20]
And yes, I'm admitting, yes, I was wrong, because I should have thought about everything before I said what I said. And at that time, I was gullible and I wasn't really focused. Right.
- [05:38]
B
I've spoken to Venetia, and she also told me this. So that makes two prosecution witnesses recanting. First Rosie and now Venetia. The dominoes that make up the state's case seem to be falling.
- [05:56]
However, there is one key person who made the prosecution's charges and convictions possible.
- [06:03]
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Victoria told me she got paid to make up a whole story just to get rid of this case.
- [06:07]
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Rosie's sister, Victoria Caldwell. And get money, right?
- [06:11]
A
Yeah, and get money. Yes. She got paid to do this case. Yeah, she got paid to do it.
- [06:24]
B
And what Victoria will go on to say involves more than some threats or the scheming of citizen investigator Susan Galbraith. It implicates law enforcement and not only the investigators with the Kentucky Attorney General's office, but one of the cities state's top prosecutors as well.
- [07:22]
This is graves county chapter 5. The receipts.
- [07:35]
At the end of last episode, you heard Victoria's sister Rosie Kreiss telling me she'd been coerced into lying. But Rosie says it wasn't only threats. Law enforcement also persuaded her with money.
- [07:49]
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They paid me a hundred dollar bill to call people. It's Detective Sam Steger with the Kentucky State Police. Today's date is June 5, 2006.
- [07:58]
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One of those people was her cousin.
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We will be making a phone call to Tamara Caldwell. Call Tamara and if she knew anything about Quincy being involved in this case, we'll give you $100. And she says yes.
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Hello? Hi, Nana. Hey, honey. Is Tamara home? Yeah, she's right here. Can I talk? No. Can I talk to her?
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I said, tamara, these officers have been asking me lately if you knew anything about Quincy Cross's involvement in the current case or anything about him being involved. I knew you had knew that Quincy was involved in the murder. I ain't know about nobody else. I ain't heard nothing yet.
- [08:40]
That's what I'm saying. Yeah, she said, yeah, I heard. Yeah, I know.
- [08:46]
B
Tamara doesn't say anything else about the case. They go on to talk about a family gathering over the weekend.
- [08:54]
A
Do you still want us bring the kids back down there Saturday?
- [08:56]
B
Yeah, but Rosie says that didn't matter to law enforcement.
- [09:01]
A
Yeah, I know. Was enough for them.
- [09:03]
B
And a few dollars were enough for Rosie to betray her own family. Those weren't great years for Rosie. You mentioned you were on drugs back then. And you would have said anything for 100 bucks.
- [09:16]
A
Yeah, I was on crack cocaine back then. Sure was.
- [09:19]
C
They really tapped into people who had a lot to lose, but also a lot to gain.
- [09:27]
B
Miranda Hellman again, the attorney for the Kentucky Innocence Project. She says law enforcement took advantage of.
- [09:35]
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People kind of living on the periphery. Maybe even folks who didn't have stable homes, who had young children and were.
- [09:42]
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Really young children themselves, like Venetia and Rosie and Victoria, who was only 15 at the time of the murder and around 21 when she reached out to Rosie, saying they could make some money.
- [09:56]
A
So Victoria told you she was gonna be paid? Yeah, yeah. And if I helped her, she was gonna switch the money with me.
- [10:04]
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Rosie told this to the same private investigator you heard earlier.
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She said, how much? No, she said around in the thousands, though. I know it was in the thousands.
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B
Miranda says Victoria had been financially struggling at the time.
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So they really tapped into two things. I think they played good cop, bad cop with her in making threats that if you aren't going to work with us, you could lose your kids, but then also giving her incentives.
- [10:29]
B
At one point, there was a $9,000 reward for any tips that helped solve the murder. But I haven't been able to confirm if anyone ever claimed the cash. Still, money or the promise of financial gain has always loomed over this case.
- [10:47]
C
I was hearing rumors of hay witnesses were paid off. There were some bad cops involved. And as I started to dig into the discovery, all those things really played out to be true.
- [11:00]
B
At one point in her investigation, Miranda visited with Venetia.
- [11:04]
C
How are you?
- [11:05]
A
Okay. How are you? Good.
- [11:08]
B
She was in jail on an unrelated charge. At first, Venetia didn't want to talk. But two hours later, Miranda walked out with a full story similar to the one you heard her tell the private investigator earlier.
- [11:23]
A
They forced me to say that Tamara had something to do with it. They forced me to say that Jeffrey had something to do with it.
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B
And she says she didn't even meet Quincy until around the time he was dating Tamara a few years after the murder.
- [11:36]
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No, I didn't even know who it was, because I even asked. I'm like, who is he?
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C
Yeah.
- [11:41]
B
Venetia is referring to a conversation she had with Susan Galbraith. Remember, early on in her investigation, Susan kept pushing Venetia to give up Quincy's name. You heard a secret recording from Susan where Venecia sounds confused and replies, but.
- [12:00]
A
What I don't get is, who is this Quincy guy?
- [12:06]
B
Venetia is in her 40s now. She's less wiry. And her giant eyes, once filled with fear and defeat, are now gleaming with determination as she speaks about her experience as a witness in this case. She's opened up to private investigators, to the Innocence Project, my team, and to me. And on top of blaming law enforcement, Venetia confirms what so many people have told me, that Susan played a big.
- [12:37]
A
Role in this case, although she's deceased, let her rest in peace. But she's another reason why my life got messed up as well. Yeah.
- [12:47]
B
Venetia is sitting with her mom, chatting to one of my producers. And Venetia doesn't talk about Susan with bitterness. Susan and Venetia's mom were actually once friends.
- [12:59]
A
Susan used to throw parties at our house. Sure did. Or whatever. And invite mom and my uncle and all them to their parties.
- [13:07]
B
But then Jessica Curran was killed. Jeremy Adams was charged, and the rest is history.
- [13:14]
A
She was good friends with Jeremy Adams mother, Donna, and Donna was like girlfriends or whatever. And she was helping Donna clear Jeremy's name, which is, I mean, I understand that's respectful. But at the same time, you still incriminated a lot of people. You still put a lot of people's name in it that didn't have nothing to do with it.
- [13:34]
B
And there was another motive, Venetia says, a much simpler one.
- [13:41]
A
Susan Gabbard did it for the fame and for the money.
- [13:46]
B
Susan did get her Outstanding Citizen Award from the Kentucky Attorney General's office for her role in helping solve the Curran case. Tom Mangold wrote articles about her and her investigation. The BBC aired a radio documentary touting her accomplishment, and countless movie offers followed. In the emails obtained by the Kentucky Innocence Project, Susan and Tom Discuss splitting any money 50, 50, though a feature film never materialized. And I can't knock Susan, Victoria or anyone else for being motivated by money in this case. People are allowed to have desires. That's not a crime. The problem comes when the people with power, the state and law enforcement take advantage of people's weaknesses to get what they want. Miranda says law enforcement ran with Susan Galbreath's theory and paid Victoria Caldwell to back that story up in order to close the case. And it was more than a measly hundred dollars. Much more.
- [14:57]
When Miranda Hellman started going through footage of Quincy's trial, she says she noticed something odd.
- [15:04]
C
There were many cross examination questions about were you paid?
- [15:08]
B
The defense was asking these questions to witnesses like Victoria Caldwell.
- [15:13]
C
You know, were you paid to be here today? Were you paid for your testimony? Did you receive money from the government? Did they pay for your meals? Did they pay for your clothes?
- [15:22]
A
What else did the KBI pay for you besides your rent and your moving expenses?
- [15:29]
The utilities? The utilities, food.
- [15:35]
No.
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B
Miranda says Quincy's attorneys also asked the KBI agents whether they paid for the meals and clothes of their main witness.
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C
And a lot of the answers to those questions were no.
- [15:48]
A
What other expenses were paid besides utilities? And rent. And moving.
- [15:58]
Off the top of my head, sir, I believe it was all the buried. You know.
- [16:05]
I'm sure at one point in time, we had to give her something to eat.
- [16:09]
C
So I thought that was strange that these questions kept coming up. And then I stumbled across this set of maybe 200 pages of receipts.
- [16:16]
B
Receipts that, according to Miranda, the defense was never used in their cross examination. And that showed law enforcement was being untruthful under oath.
- [16:31]
When Victoria made contact with Susan and first met the agents with the KBI in 2007, she was living in California. Then around March of that year, law enforcement moved Victoria into witness protection in North Carolina because she claimed to be afraid for her life.
- [16:49]
C
Also sort of did the same thing with Venetia, but they didn't really pay for nearly as many of her expenses. They actually held her in jail while they held Victoria in a paid condo.
- [17:02]
B
According to a court filing from the Kentucky Innocence Project, the office of the Attorney General and the Kentucky State Police paid Victoria from February 2007 to. To January 2008.
- [17:15]
C
She collected all of her receipts for all the meals she ate, the food she bought, the clothes she bought, the, you know, living expenses, turned those in, and then the Attorney General's office would issue an authorization to pay funds to her.
- [17:30]
B
Many of these receipts were filed under the state's witness protection program. I've gone through them as well, and at first glance, they appear pretty standard. A gas bill, groceries. But then they start to branch out.
- [17:47]
C
And so I started digging, and we found that they included nights out, bowling, going to a movie theater, going out to eat, and even included margaritas and beers at restaurants. It included phone cards, clothing items for her kids, all of her gas, getting her car repairs done, new tires, and then some really odd items.
- [18:11]
B
There was one receipt for Claire's accessories and another one from a sex shop.
- [18:17]
C
And then we dug into the receipt, and it appeared to be a vibrator that she had purchased at one of those video stores in North Carolina.
- [18:25]
B
According to Kentucky law, the Attorney General's office should reimburse costs that are deemed reasonable and necessary for the protection of a witness. It includes expenses for things like meals and childcare. As far as I can tell, though, a vibrator is not on the list of approved items. In total, the Kentucky Innocence Project found that Victoria Caldwell was paid at least $17,000 in one year.
- [18:53]
C
She was living on the state dime pretty freely and really nicely for an extended period of time, while realistically, she had been charged as complicit in this murder. And should have been sitting in jail next to Venetia. They KN they could not make this case without her and they had to do everything they could to hold it together. So it just really looks to me that this is just purely paying your witness to come in and testify in the way that you want her to testify and also keep her under your exclusive control, hidden away in a totally different state to make sure that that very fragile narrative doesn't fall apart.
- [19:31]
B
Miranda is making the case to me and the courts that law enforcement committed perjury at Quincy's TR when they concealed the extent of the payments they made to Victoria. And not only that, the top prosecutors with the state's Attorney General's office enabled those lies.
- [19:51]
C
We have law enforcement officers and special prosecutors from our head prosecution body coming into a trial saying we absolutely didn't do anything that would put this case in jeopardy. We did not pay that witness. It was just for her protection. Everything was above board. And of course, if a jury hears that, they would have no reason to not believe it. But the proof was sitting there the whole time.
- [20:15]
B
According to the Kentucky Innocence Project, this is a clear due process violation and is yet another reason Quincy Cross's conviction should be vacated. My team has reached out to the Office of the Attorney General several times, as well as to the lead prosecutor at Quincy's trial, Barbara Manswaley. We have not heard back.
- [20:38]
But we did hear from Victoria Caldwell.
- [20:44]
That's after the break.
- [20:54]
A
This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing.
- [21:06]
B
If anyone has ever said you snore.
- [21:08]
A
Loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your.
- [21:18]
B
Airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation.
- [21:26]
A
Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lily, a medicine company.
- [21:33]
C
The following ad is sponsored by Pet's Best Insurance Services. You knew right away he's perfect. The one for you. Those puppy dog eyes, that cute little button nose. You don't even mind the drool. When you find your perfect match in a dog or cat, the love is unconditional. Your budget, on the other hand, has realistic limits. Help protect your heart and your wallet with pet insurance from Pets Best with plans starting from less than a dollar a day, you can get up to 90% cash back on eligible vet bills. Pets Best makes it easy to pick a plan that works for you and your bank account. Find the perfect match for your Perfect match@petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by PetsBest Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.pets.com.petsbest.com Policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.
- [22:35]
A
So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives to change how you do business. Let's create smarter Business IBM.
- [23:12]
B
I've reached out to Victoria a few times and haven't heard back, but Miranda was able to track her down.
- [23:19]
C
Miranda Hellman August 4, 2023, 12:58pm in Cincinnati, Ohio meeting Kenneth Nixon to go speak to Victoria Caldwell.
- [23:31]
B
Miranda found her living in Ohio and she brought along Ken Nixon. Ken is from Detroit and he spent 16 years in prison for a crime he did not commit. He was exonerated a few years ago and now runs his own organization, helping exonerees get on their feet. Ken knows what it's like to deal with a legal system hell bent on screwing over people without power. And I've known Ken for years. He's tall, handsome, and greets everyone with a charming smile.
- [24:03]
A
Hi, how are you? Good, how are you? I'm good. Looking for Victoria? Yes. How you doing?
- [24:11]
B
Ken is exactly the kind of guy you want around to put people at ease.
- [24:16]
A
If you wouldn't mind, we'd like to sit down and have a conversation with you.
- [24:21]
B
Victoria is nearing middle age, though she still looks baby faced. Her black hairline is showing peaks of gray.
- [24:30]
A
I'm actually just told not to talk about this king.
- [24:33]
B
Off the bat, Victoria says that Barbara Whaley, the lead prosecutor, called her and told her not to talk about the case.
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C
Barbara Whaley?
- [24:43]
A
I mean, do you feel comfortable naming some names? Is there somebody we need to talk to? Do we need to get it cleared with them first? I don't mind.
- [24:51]
B
I call them, but Victoria takes out her phone and dials first. The person she calls Bob o'. Neill.
- [25:00]
A
Hey Bob, how you doing One of.
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B
The agents with the Kentucky Bureau of Investigation who interrogated persons of interest at the Drury Inn and Suites.
- [25:10]
A
They want to talk about the case.
- [25:12]
B
Victoria talks to o' Neal with familiarity. She's on a first name basis with him. She calls Jessica's killing from over two decades ago the case. Like they speak about it often. O' Neal advises Victoria against saying anything.
- [25:28]
A
But she adds, he said once you guys leave the residence, he'll talk to you guys. Oh, that's fine.
- [25:33]
B
Once Ken and Miranda leave the residence, o' Neal will talk to them. So they leave.
- [25:41]
And Ken calls him.
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A
Hello. Can I speak to Bob? This is him speaking. How you doing, Bob?
- [25:47]
B
O' Neal sounds skeptical but friendly. And he tells Ken that Victoria has had to deal with a lot.
- [25:55]
A
She. She has faced a lot of trauma in her life even before that, before that murder took place, which kind of the way she was brought up and stuff.
- [26:07]
B
And o' Neal says he still gives Victoria advice now and then.
- [26:12]
A
Is that why you told her not to talk to me today? Yeah, I told her. Yeah. She asked me for my opinion. I told her.
- [26:22]
B
But they were determined. And a few weeks later, once things cooled off, Ken messaged Victoria on Facebook. Then he called Miranda. All right.
- [26:32]
A
She just looked at my message. I just sent her my number. I tried to call her.
- [26:36]
B
Miranda recorded the conversation, and we've edited the call for length and clarity.
- [26:41]
A
She's calling me right now. Okay. All right.
- [26:43]
C
I'm muting again.
- [26:45]
B
Victoria wastes no time getting to business.
- [26:48]
A
I was never there. I never witnessed anything. Okay. How did they get you to say what they got you to say what happened? They told me they'll stick a needle on my arm on the elevator at the tree. It was kind of like Jurian in Paducah, Kentucky.
- [27:04]
Make my statement.
- [27:07]
Did they specifically tell you what to say? Is that how your story came about? Yes.
- [27:14]
One officer. Multiple officers. Multiple from the Scott Sutherland to Lee Wise was the main one.
- [27:25]
B
Victoria is implicating a prosecutor with the Attorney General's office and Agent Lee Wise with the kbi. O' Neill's partner.
- [27:33]
A
Okay. How do you know Quincy? I don't know him. I never met him a day in my life.
- [27:41]
How'd you know his name? They gave it to me. How'd you know what he looked like? They showed me.
- [27:49]
B
And she doesn't stop there. She tells Ken that the KBI not only had her lie, they helped fabricate evidence.
- [27:59]
A
There was some mention about a diary. And you give me a little more details about it. I wrote that in the Same day they came.
- [28:06]
B
They're referring to the diary Victoria read from at trial, where she detailed the aftermath of the murder, along with the belt. The prosecution used this diary to show that Quincy and the others committed the crime. And Victoria is saying she made it up, that she didn't actually write the diary entries at the time of Jessica's death in August of 2000.
- [28:30]
A
Monetary exchange between your head.
- [28:32]
B
Then Victoria confirms she's still in touch with law enforcement. Specifically Bob o' Neal from the kbi.
- [28:39]
A
He's always giving me money.
- [28:42]
Okay, when you say money, what kind of money? We're talking like, a couple hundred bucks just to get by. Are we talking a couple grand to help? More than a couple grand. But he's always taking care of me. Is it cash, Check? No, cash. Always cash. You meet in public places or he comes to you? How does that work? No, he comes to my house. Oh, wow. What do you think their position is? It's. It's. They're trying to keep you quiet. Is that the concern? Yeah. They let me tell the same story, and I. I refuse to tell the same story. And I don't want to keep telling if I can't remember. You can't remember lies. You just remember the truth to tell a lie, right? I can't remember everything I said. So, yes.
- [29:27]
B
Bob o' Neill did not want to speak with me for this piece, but he told me he stands by the convictions, by the tactics used by the kbi, and that he denies all of Victoria's claims. Lewis, the other agent with the kbi, has not responded to my request for an interview.
- [29:49]
I don't know why Victoria is so casually admitting this to Ken. And I have no way of telling if she's being truthful. But I do know that she likes to spin stories. The one she's told about the death of Jessica Curran has changed more times than I can count. From the very first time she spoke to Mayfield police in 2000 until now. And still, law enforcement made Victoria their star witness. And they chose to use one of her many stories to put Quincy Cross in prison for life and to convict Jeff Burton and Victoria's own cousin, Tamara Caldwell.
- [30:36]
Victoria goes on to make many, many more accusations and claims to Ken, but I'm not going to share those, because they're damning and could all just be made up. And the reason for Victoria's supposed lies only gets more bizarre.
- [30:56]
A
Why incriminate your cousin, though? How? She killed my grandma.
- [31:01]
And I said that to everybody that interviewed me, but they wouldn't put it on record.
- [31:09]
She pushed my grandma down the stairs and broke her hip and my grandma died.
- [31:14]
Oh, wow. Yeah. So basically you're incriminating her in this case. Was your get back? Yeah.
- [31:24]
Let me get the story straight. My mother died at Lourdes Hospital during surgery. Tamara had nothing to do with her dying.
- [31:33]
B
This is Brenda Jackson, Tamara Caldwell's mom and Victoria's aunt. My mother was getting a stent put in her neck. She was a diabetic and she was.
- [31:45]
A
Getting a stent put in and her heart fell.
- [31:48]
B
Her heart stopped beating on the table.
- [31:50]
A
And that's where my mother died at.
- [31:54]
B
We got a copy of the death certificate and it matches Brenda's story. Her mom died from cardiac arrest. Natural causes, not an accident. At one point, Victoria told police her mom was supportive of her going to law enforcement with her story. And Brenda thinks it could have been because her sister Victoria's mother, Wanda, had some resentment.
- [32:19]
A
I believe Wanda was jealous of me and my kids. I really do. Because my children and I, we were very close, every one of us. Wanda and her kids, they were not.
- [32:33]
B
Brenda lives in Mayfield in a small one story home with little tomato plants outside baking in the sun.
- [32:41]
A
And my son bought me this one. And so far I've only got one off of it.
- [32:46]
C
Huh.
- [32:47]
A
One?
- [32:48]
B
Yeah. How many do you normally get?
- [32:51]
A
Seven or eight. I want five.
- [32:54]
B
Inside, her home is adorned with porcelain angel figurines and family pictures on the wood paneled wall.
- [33:01]
A
Those four on the wall over there.
- [33:03]
B
Brenda points to ones of her four kids.
- [33:06]
A
The top one is Damien. The one after him is Tamara. And then one after Tamara.
- [33:13]
B
There's a lot of life pictured on those walls. Brenda comes from a big family. Well, there was.
- [33:20]
A
There was 10 of us as kids.
- [33:23]
B
There was eight girls and two boys.
- [33:26]
A
And out of 10 of us, there's only three of us living now. We all, we.
- [33:32]
C
We were all close.
- [33:35]
B
Except for her younger sister, Wanda, Rosie and Victoria's mom.
- [33:39]
A
Cause Wanda was a tattletale. Everything. And no matter what we did, she would go and tell mom or my.
- [33:47]
B
Older sister and we'd get spanked for it.
- [33:49]
A
We'd get in trouble. Or she would steal cigarettes from mama and bring them to us and we would smoke them and she would run in the house and tell on us.
- [34:00]
B
Brenda says they all teased Wanda and they had the kind of love hate relationship that only siblings do. Still, they stayed tight over the years when they were both single moms trying to make ends meet, they even moved their families in together. Tamara remembers those times fondly.
- [34:19]
A
Like 15 kids yeah, and we all slept in like two beds. I mean, that's how close we were.
- [34:25]
B
Tamara says she grew up inseparable from her cousins, including Rosie and Victoria, who are just a few years younger.
- [34:32]
A
Close, close. Yeah, I'm talking about mud pie close. When you see mud pie, make mud pies and go in the woods and do all that, just play together.
- [34:44]
B
But as time passed, the cousins and the sisters grew distant. While Brenda says she nurtured a close knit family with her kids. Wanda couldn't settle down. She left Victoria to be raised by her grandma and took Rosie with her to help pay the bills. Brenda says wherever she would go, she.
- [35:06]
A
Would be selling Rosie her daughter. She said, baby, I'm going to have to show you. Mommy's going to have to ask you this. You have to do threesomes. We have to do threesomes.
- [35:16]
B
Rosie tells me it's true that her mom sold her for sex when she was just a little girl.
- [35:23]
A
She said it's going to pay the bills.
- [35:25]
B
Victoria has also said she suffered a similar fate. I've reached out to Wanda and she's not replied. The family drama, the alleged jealousy between sisters may be true, but it's impossible for me to fact check. And as far as the alleged abuse, Rosie actually told the KBI about it during her interview in 2007 in it's the reason I'm even telling you about it in the first place. Remember o' Neill told Ken Nixon on the phone that Victoria had suffered a lot of trauma even before Jessica's death. Well, this trauma would be exploited by law enforcement, including the kbi.
- [36:12]
A
What type of own life did you have, Rosie, growing up? Let's say start at 12 or start at. Yeah, start around 10. From 10 years old to 18 when you, you stepped out on your own.
- [36:23]
B
The agents used those stories to ingratiate themselves with the girls. You can hear it in their interview tapes with Rosie.
- [36:31]
A
The only reason we're asking those questions is kind of just to get to know you. Yeah. And find out some things about you. It helps me know what frame of mind or what state of, you know.
- [36:42]
Addition. Your life's a good. Okay.
- [36:46]
B
Rosie goes on to tell the KBI agents what she told me.
- [36:50]
A
I thank you for your honesty on that. And I know that's something that's very difficult to demolish the people.
- [36:59]
I hope that we have proven to you so far that we're not threatening. Okay. Yes. And I hope that you feel that you can tell us information and that information is not going any further than this room. Okay? Yes.
- [37:22]
B
Remember what attorney Miranda Hellman said? They tapped into young girls who had nothing to lose and a lot to gain, who would lie on their own cousin out of fear or for money or simply out of spite. Lies that shattered numerous lives and an entire family.
- [37:46]
A
To lie on my daughter like that.
- [37:49]
B
It'S best that I not see either one of them because I will be in prison.
- [37:57]
That's after the break.
- [38:00]
Foreign.
- [38:10]
A
This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or OSA.
- [38:17]
B
In adults with obesity?
- [38:18]
A
They may be happening to you without you knowing.
- [38:21]
B
If anyone has ever said you snored.
- [38:24]
A
Loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your.
- [38:34]
B
Airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation. Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this.
- [38:45]
A
Information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.
- [38:49]
C
Protect your pet with insurance from Pets Best plans start from less than a dollar a day. Visit petsbest.com Pet insurance products offered and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company or Independence American Insurance Company for terms and conditions, visit www.petsbest.com Policy products are underwritten by American Pet Insurance Company, Independence American Insurance Company or Ms. Transverse Insurance Company and administered by Pets Best Insurance Services, LLC. $1.00 a day premium based on 2024 average new policyholder data for accident and illness plans. Pets age 0 to 10.
- [39:20]
A
So let me get this straight. Your company has data here, there and everywhere, but your AI can't use the data because it's here, there and everywhere? Seems like something's missing. Every business has unique data. IBM helps your AI access your data wherever it lives. To change how you do business, let's create smarter Business. IBM.
- [40:05]
B
Just like Quincy Cross and Jeff Burton, Tamara Caldwell has had people fighting in her corner. People like Brenda.
- [40:12]
A
Tamara is actually my best friend.
- [40:15]
B
She's my daughter, don't get me wrong.
- [40:16]
A
But. But she's also my best friend.
- [40:20]
B
When Tamara went to prison for Jessica's murder, Brenda quit her job as a GED instructor to take care of Tamara's three kids.
- [40:28]
A
And if I had to do it all over again, I would. I would, because there's no way my grandkids was going to be put in anybody's foster care. No way. So I took care of her kids and, you know, just did what I.
- [40:43]
B
Had to do in A low profile, matching armchair. Next to Brenda sits Noble Faulkner, Brenda's common law husband and the private investigator you heard earlier interviewing Venetia and Rosie.
- [40:57]
A
As I started investigating this case, you know, I found that a lot of things were that they just didn't make common sense. Hello, ladies. I just got off the phone with Nobel Peace Prize Noble Faulkner.
- [41:12]
B
Noble is also close to Dara Woolman, my trusted source.
- [41:16]
A
First time I talked to Noble, he told me a wonderful story about when he was in the Navy, he had to jump into the ocean and that there was a shark chasing him and he punched the shark in the face, or something along those lines. But you couldn't make him up or right him if you wanted to.
- [41:40]
B
Noble is in his 70s, tall and lean. He's worked in security for over 50 years and he's been a private investigator since the 80s. His body is slowing down with age and its many ailments, but he comes alive when talking about this case with the exuberance of a preacher.
- [42:00]
A
See, in this whole big jungle of lies and deceptions, there is the truth. But you got to figure it out. You got to put it together.
- [42:14]
B
Brenda actually sought Noble out years ago, before they got together.
- [42:19]
A
I had heard so many people saying how good of an investigator he was, and I wanted my daughter to be cleared of this murder case.
- [42:30]
B
Yes, since then, Noble has spoken to nearly every key player in this case. And all of their stories have led Noble to one conclusion.
- [42:42]
A
They framed Quincy Cross. They framed Tamara Caldwell, they framed Jeffrey Burton.
- [42:49]
And they know they did. And that's why today you all are standing up in this room trying to get the faith facts on this case when it should have been solved 20 years ago.
- [43:07]
B
And this is where attorney Miranda Hellman is now wondering how this case was even brought to trial in the first place.
- [43:16]
C
When I look at this case, I go, no way. Like, this couldn't have happened. I see the holes in this case. Why can't a prosecutor who's been practicing for 30 years see it? Why didn't the Attorney General see it? Why didn't the judge see it?
- [43:30]
B
And as a journalist myself, I'm wondering, why didn't a seasoned reporter like Tom Mangold see it? We have no emails between Tom and Susan after 2012. This is the last time Tom published a piece featuring Susan in his radio documentary for the BBC. And this was also around the time Tom sent the email to Susan's friend and collaborator saying, lacey, I'm just beginning to wonder. This is but a tiny worm of an idea in my wine soaked brain that there is a teeny weeny, itsy bitsy chance that we've got this whole fucking murder story wrong.
- [44:15]
This seed of doubt was planted. After Susan's friend took a more active role helping Tom Mangold research for his documentary. She went to talk to Victoria. And Victoria told her that she made most of her story up. That the diary they used at trial was fake, that the KBI had threatened her, that she lied on Tamra out of spite. Tom knew this. He fretted over her credibility in emails to his producer and to law enforcement. But he ended up going with Victoria's story, implicating Quincy, Jeff and Tamara of horrific crimes without mentioning her recantation and praising Susan as the everyday citizen who helped solve a murder against all odds.
- [45:06]
And that was really it for the duo, the veteran journalist and the Kentucky housewife. Then in 2018, Tom got the email from Susan's sister telling him that she died. I've been trying to contact you and regretfully inform you of Susan's recent death. It's been such a trying time and that Susan's sister would be taking over any negotiation on pending movie deals or documentaries about her. I do know she has pending proceedings going on and I'll need to discuss that with the agent or BBC. Tom's work on the Jessica Curran murder is full of half truths. Yet I'm unable to dismiss all of it because Tom didn't only go after people with no recourse or real power, like Quincy Cross. He also sought to hold the people in charge accountable, pointing the fingers at the very first officers who led Jessica's case astray.
- [46:16]
A
When he finally left the Mayfield Police Department, what was found in his desk? Oh, they found drugs, they found guns. Everything that should not have been there.
- [46:34]
B
That's on the next and final episode.
- [46:43]
Graves county is a production of Lava for Good in association with Signal Company Number One. This show is written and produced by me, Maggie Freeling and senior producer Rebecca Ibarra. Jason Flom, Jeff Kempler and Kevin Wordis, our executive producers. Our editor is Martina Abrahams. Ilunga Dania Suleiman is our fact checker. Sound design and mixing by Joe Plorde. Music created by Wrench. Our theme song is the Gangsta grass version of the One who's Holding the Star by Leo Schofield and Kevin Herrick. Dara Woolman is investigative producer. Our head of marketing and operations is Jeff Clyburn. Eastman is our social media director and our social media manager is Sarah Gibbons. Andrew Nelson is art director with additional production help from Jackie Pauley, Kara Kornhaber, and Kathleen Fink. Be sure to follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, and ThreadSavorgood. And follow me Aggie Freeling and we know there's a lot of names for you to keep up with in this series, so for a detailed list of characters characters, please go to our Show Notes.
- [48:01]
A
With Venmo Stache A taco in one hand and ordering a ride in the other means you're stacking cash back. Nice. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash on your favorite brands when you pay with your Venmo debit card. From takeout to ride shares, entertainment and more, pick a bundle with your go tos and start earning cash back at those brands. Earn more cash when you do more with Stash. Venmo Stash terms and exclusions apply. Max $100 cash back per month. See terms at Venmo Me Stashterms. Hey audiobook lovers, I'm Kalpen. I'm Ed Helms. Ed and I are inviting you to join the best sounding book club you've ever heard with our new podcast, Earsick, the Audible and iHeart Audiobook Club. Each week we sit down with your.
- [48:46]
B
Favorite iHeart podcast hosts and some very.
- [48:48]
A
Special guests to discuss the latest and greatest audiobooks from Audible. Listen to hearsay on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Follow earsay and start listening on the free iHeartradio app today. This is Sophie Cunningham from Show Me Something. Do you know the symptoms of moderate to severe obstructive sleep apnea, or osa, in adults with obesity? They may be happening to you without you knowing.
- [49:13]
B
If anyone has ever said you snore.
- [49:16]
A
Loudly, or if you spend your days fighting off excessive tiredness, irritability and concentration issues, it may be due to osa. OSA is a serious condition where your.
- [49:26]
B
Airway partially or completely collapses during sleep, which may cause breathing interruptions and oxygen deprivation.
- [49:33]
A
Learn more at don'tsleep on OSA.com this information is provided by Lilly, a medicine company.